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I was reading a book on the history of Japan today, and they talked about the mongols attacking Japan. I know they landed troops both times, but one thing the book did not mention is the number (out of the 15000 in 1274) and how many (out of the supposed 150000) the second time. Also, did the mongols actually bring horses with them? Seems to me horsemen would be ineffective in a beach battle... Couldn't the samurai beat the crap out of them while they were trying to get them ashore? Is any of this info actually known? because I know that accounts are very hazy and vague from that period
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
NinjaKilla
07-02-2002, 08:21
Yeah I always wonder about horses... some invaders do, some don't (Vikings didn't Normans did). I wonder with the Moguls...
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
I think that the invasion didn't actually happen. The Mongol fleet lost its way and was destroyed/sunk by a typhon on the way to Japan. Only a small number of the fleet survive and manage to find the way back to main land China. I think that the Japanese didn't even know about the invasion, because it was a supprise invasion plan.
In the initial landing, I think that the Mongol could have used the Chinese/Korean Mercs (mainly foot soldiers). If the initial landing was success, then they would bring in the regular Mongol troops with horses.
I haven't found much info about the real thing.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 07-02-2002).]
IIRC, both times they landed successfully. The first time they landed and actually made a good beachead and started pushing out, inflicting heavy losses on the Samurai with their superior archery and their artillery. Then along comes the Kamikaze and wipes out the fleet, and IIRC a good deal of the Mongol force at this point had returned to the ships?
The second time was a similar story, except that the beaches were much more fortified.. anyway, a Google search should get you enough, I'm pretty sure that's where I looked when I researched this myself. Either that or the Samurai Archives might have links.
At any rate I've never found tactical info of satisfactory detail, so if that's what you're looking for, you'll have to look harder than I have.
Matt
Sjakihata
07-02-2002, 21:05
The second landing, the Tai-Fun or Kamikaze (divine wind) come and destroyed almost the entire Mongol fleet, and the rest retreated. Some legends say, that a high priest of the God of Sun prayed, hence the name (Divine Wind).
Khan, are there any accurate records on how many got ashore each invasion? I have a book that states that 15000 troops took place in the first attempt, but how many go ashore?
Then on the second, where 150000 troops were gathering on the Chinese and Korean mainland, how many of them landed that time?
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Zen Blade
07-03-2002, 01:10
I'm in lab right now, so I don't have the info with me, BUT.... as I recall, the bulk of the fleet was destroyed each time and the landing party was minimal at best.
Numbers ARE not going to be accurate though for a couple reasons...
1. normal historical inaccuracies.
2. Only have mongol numbers (estimates) b/c the Japanese would not have known what the mongols started with.
3. What was and wasn't destroyed by the storms and when.
Magyar or Seal or West may have some better info.
-Zen Blade
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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member
Wavesword
07-03-2002, 03:49
I seem to recall there were only about 40000 Mongols, the rest were Koreans. Horses onboard contributed to disease.
Hmmm. My book says that the Tai Fun came AFTER the landing. That is, they began to land, the Japanese fought them to a standstill, the Koreans didn't like the weather convinced the Mongols to reboard the ships and the Tai Fun came... not sure how accurate this is
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Yes, that is correct, both times the Taifun came AFTER they had established a beachead and IIRC returned to the ships for the night? But they had fought on land on both occasions, this I know.
Matt
Well, I heard that it's suspected that there was only one invasion. Japanese made up the story to show that they were the God's favorite. After all, one Typhoon could be a touch of luck, while two in a role (and happened in EXACTLY the same fashion) is highly unlikely and could means something. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Again, that's unconfirmed theory. Just my 2 cents.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://www.grahamday.dial.pipex.com/100war_knight4.gif
I believe there are Mongol records of both fiascos?
Mithrandir
07-11-2002, 03:29
I dont think there are, they never were the literature kind of people...
they were mostly like Kill,plunder,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,
pillage,ride,kill,plunder,pillage,ride,kill,
plunder,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,pillage,
ride,kill,plunder,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,
pillage,ride,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,
pillage,ride,kill,plunder,pillage,ride,kill,
plunder,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,pillage,
ride,kill,plunder,pillage,ride,kill,plunder,
pillage,ride,kill,plunder,get killed.
whooh! that ook long to type http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.
edit deleted 90% on command of the Great Khan7 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
[This message has been edited by Mithrandir (edited 07-11-2002).]
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 13:57
Not to mention fucking the board. How the hell did you manage that? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Mithrandir
07-11-2002, 19:48
just have way to many time on my hands http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.
(copy&paste also helpes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif).
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
It's not big deal, Mith, as it seems this topic is somewhat stalled anyway, but if you could delete like 80 or 90% of that, it would make the thread more readable. When you H-bombed it, it stretches it out so you have to scroll.
Also, the Mongols did write, they got fat and gilded like the Chinese and adopted much of the Chinese culture.
Matt
Fast Death
07-11-2002, 22:48
All work and no play makes Jack an unhappy man.
Mithrandir
07-12-2002, 00:22
edited as on request, took a bit of the fun out of the post, but it did give me the oppurtunity to make this post and thus up my post count http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-12-2002, 01:06
You make the world a better place, man.
Here are some info on the two Mongol invasion forces that were sent to Japan. Not much in detail anyway.
Here is the site:
http://www.coldsiberia.org/
Quote 1274: Kubilai sends a fleet of 150 boats against Japan, but is beaten back.
1279: The Sung was conclusively subjugated, and the whole of China is won and the Mongol Yuan dynasty, lasting until 1368, is established. The Mongols were, even though their own nation went into decline, thus the unifiers of China. In this context it should be pointed out that this sequence of events was a recurrent pattern through Chinese history; many times over the Chinese separated into several independent states and dynasties, then they reunited under the influence of a new, stronger dynasty. The Mongol establishment of their Yuan dynasty may also be seen in the light of this ancient historical pattern.
1281: Kubilai sends another, larger expedition with more than 160 000 warriors to Japan, but this also meets failure, and a typhoon seals its doom. [/QUOTE]
Here is what so many Vietnamese are proud of. Beat the Mongol three times.
Quote 1283: The fact that the Mongols were not a naval power is demonstrated once more in Indochina. This year Kubilai sent by the sea a force to Champa, which is part of present-day Vietnam. The Champa troops beat the Mongol forces and forced them to retreat.
1285: Kubilai sends another army to the kingdom of Annam, also part of present-day Vietnam. His force came as far as to Hanoi, but it was defeated and had to retreat.
1287: Kubilai sends a third army against Hanoi, but again fails, and the army must retreat again.
1288: In spite of the fact that the Vietnamese had won three consecutive military victories over the forces of Kubilai, Tran Nhon-ton, the king of Annam, in the end acknowledged himself Kubilai's vassal. [/QUOTE]
In all three times, Mongol successfully took An-Nam (Vietnam) capitol, Thang-Long, but later was forces to retreat. The names such as Tran Nhan-Ton (the King), Tran Nhat-Duat (the strategist), Tran Hung-Dao (the army commander), Tran Quoc-Toan (the youngest general,was 16 in the first Mongol invasion) are known to all Vietnamese.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 07-19-2002).]
So, with 150 boats in the first time, the number of troops could be about 100,000 to 150,000. Mongol fleet ran into a typhoon and their force was reduced before landing on Japan.
For the second invasion, their force was greatly reduced after facing a typhoon again.
As the article in this site:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2532/page9.html
Quote In 1274 Kublai decided to expand his empire beyond the reaches of the coast. Kublai put together an attack on the island of Japan. The fate of his fleet would be determined by the weather and many of his troops were lost to a typhoon before they could even reach land. Kublai Khan would decide to send two more sea attacks in the effort to expand his empire. His next attack would again be on Japan in 1279 and that attack would result in heavy casualties for only the Mongols. Once again they ran into a typhoon in trying to invade Japan. It is estimated that over 2/3 of their force was lost. Kublai's other attempt by sea was made against the Java Empire in 1292, modern Indonesia, which just as the other attacks by sea was a dismal failure.[/QUOTE]
This site offers a different figure in number of troops.
http://www.koreanhistoryproject.org/Ket/Idx/KETIndexTC06.htm
Go to "The Yuan Dynasty" part.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 07-19-2002).]
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