Russian Civil War

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Right. So in US History II, we were learning about WWI. The Russian Civil war was given about two sentences. But it sparked my interest, as it is something I know very little about. Also, when a history textbook justs touches on something, it generally means there's a ton of cool history behind that thing.

SO, can anyone point me in the direction of some good websites, or, even better, books on the Russian Civil War? Or give me a nice overview? It sounds interesting with the Reds, Whites, Greens, Blacks, all kinds of political groups and stuff. Also the virtually unknown (to me and probably 95% of America) Allied involvement in the Civil War.

Thank you in advance.
~:cheers:

[Tribesman]

http://www.regiments.org/wars/ww1/russia.htm
A good basic British military site , with a very good selection of links at the bottom of the page and suggested books to read .

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Thanks!

Does anyone have any material from a Russian perspective?

~:cheers:

[BalkanTourist]

Ok, I am afraid this might turn into a long post, but I'll try to restrain myself.
History is just so much fun!
You are right to look at this matter from different prospectives. That way you'd make your own oppinion on the matter. The history of Russia is most intriguing and very, very sad IMHO.
One thing is to know about the revolution. When it started, what took place, who were the main figures, how it ended, what were the consequences?
It is much more interesting to ask WHY? As a kid that used to be my favorite question. I used to drive my dad nuts. But I am a type of guy who is more interested in the reasons behind everything. Why people act the way they do, why does the Earth rotate around the Sun and not the other way around?
Anyway. In order to answer that you'll have to go back from the beginning.Sounds like too much of work? Not if you really enjoy history. A couple of books that I'd suggest: "A History of Russia" Sixth Edition by Nicholas V. Riasanovsky. It takes you from the creation of Kievan Rus, through the Mongols, to the Time of Troubles, Peter The Great and the Revolution. At the end it'd all make sence. And you'd be able to understand that it was bound to happen. They didn't call Russia the "Clay Feet Giant" for no good reason.
Second book is "Russian Rebels" I don't know the name of the author, but it is listed on Amazon.com. There you'd find out that revolts and social struggles in Russia are a common thing. The only way the state could have existed was through a strong dictatorial type of power. The irony is that the state was needed to protect the people, to protect the state a strong government was needed, in order to have a strong government you have to oppress the people. It's like a vicious cycle. The whole history of Russia is like that everything is related. I guess it's like that with any state's history.
The Russian History course I took at the college helped me realize a lot and broadened my knowledge. Those two books were required. Also "Peter The Great" and another very very good book, which I can't remember the name of, and which I have loaned to someone and he never returned to me. It was about how economics and geography affected the Russian fate.
I might be boring you right now so I'll stop, but if you want to talk about Russia it would be great I'd love to share some thoughts with you.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Not boring at all! I'll have to track down some of those books...

Thanks, BalkanTourist! :book:

[Ar7]

Being a Russian I just have to write a couple of sentences here, I am not going to make a summary of all the events, as they are rather numerous and you will probably find the details in the books suggested, but I have to express my opinion. My opinion will most likely represent the opinion of the new generation, as history in the former soviet states is being reviewed, looked upon with a clearer mind if you wish. There are many programmes on today opening the secrets of history and changing the opinions of people about the USSR and the revolution.

First of all I would like to state that the BalkanTourist is right, there was no way Russia could do without a strong leader and there continues to be no such way. Russia has a special mentality, it can not be ruled by only democracy, people tend to abuse it and it all ends with chaos, a perfect example of this are the years 1991 - 1998. And that is why president Putin is being so succesful and is, I think I can surely say that, one of the only, if not the only politician, who is respected and loved in Russia at the moment.

Now back on topic, I believe that the revolution of 1917 is the saddest thing ever to have happened to Russia. It broke everything, all the traditions, the country lost most of it's educated citizens. The people resembled a mob of peasents rather than a nation it had been., Russia fell into chaos.

And what makes it even worse, if the Russian goverment would have been given 2-3 more years to finish the changes that were in the making, the revolution would not have happened. The main supporters of the revolution were poor landless peasents, the reforms in the making were supposed to give land to them, if more time had passed there simply wouldn't be enough people who would have wanted to rebel. And if that wasn't bad enough, during those years Russia was one of the fastest developing countries, quickly growing it's industry, railroads etc.

Of course the main reason why the peasents began to rebel was the WWI, once again, this is the error of Nikolai II. He saw that the Russian army was weak, especially after the war with Japan in 1905 ( I think it was that year ). When the Russian army suffered losses in that war, the population became very unrestull and and the revolution became more popular. So what did Nikolai II expect when he joined WWI is unknown, a fast victory was impossible and it only lessened the popularity of the monarch. Of course he was a man of honour and did not want to leave his allies alone, but he still should have thought of his country first. Especially since in the later years his close relative, the King of England refused to let Nikolai II escape to England from Russia, if it wasn't for him, we would still have a King!

So if it wasn't for this revolution, Russia would have been a super power by the start of WWII. Of course it still was, even with the revolution, but without it, it would have kept an open economy, it's traditions and most importanly educated commanders for the coming war as well as escaped the repressions of Stalin and the demographic catastrophy that his strategy resulted in for the Russian people.

Sorry if it was a long post, but as I am a Russian this topic is close to me.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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On my own account, I thank you for letting us know what an average Russianman thinks about Russia, its past and present. :bow:
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[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

If you ever have a chance, try to play a old wargame named "Rossyia 1917" from Azure Wish Edition (same people who made Europa Universalis the boardgame).

Sure it's only a game, but it's very interesting for the game mechanics and also for the hindsight into that period: after that game, I was really eager to know more since it was a very dynamic period, with many foreign interventions (including US, French, UK...), many different political groups (white, red, black, czech legion!), revolts, Kronsdat, nations that were under Russian control trying to break away, legendary leaders, like Kolchak, Denikin, Trotsky, Makhno, Wrangel, Frunze...
I don't think many historical events compare, it's really too bad it's not heard more about.

I would disagree that the revolution caused the end of all the educated commanders leading the russian armies: red generals were far from being outclassed by white generals: Denikin, Iudenich and Kolchak were not brilliant strategist. But generals like Trotsky, Budeny, Frunze or Tukachevsky were more than decent and are worth lot of educated commanders that the tsar would have kept.
What really destroyed the great officers that commanded the Red army during the Russian Civil War is Stalin purge.
By the way, it seems that Stalin purge were partly directed against general that proved better than him during that war, or that made him look bad during the war (such was the case of Tukachevsky... and he paid for it in 1935...)

Louis,

[Ar7]

When I said it brought an end to intelligent commanders, here is what I meant.

First of all, I meant lower rank officers. The Tzar army had great military traditions. An officer was one of the most respected professions in Russia before the revolution, they were given excellent training and education. A good example of this is the end of the civil war, when the last white force was defending Crimea, there around 300 000 - 500 000 ( not sure about this number ) defended against the Red Army of around 3 million soldiers. They were quite successful though loosing at the end due to a large difference in size. The Red army resembled a large mob, since most of the officers remained true to the Tzar. Countless officers were hung by the Red Army during the civil war. After this the USSR had to begin from scratch to gain new educated leaders for the army.

A small off topic. Another thing that proves how good the Russian officers were is the group of soldiers that were sent to help France in WW1 in exchange for weapons and ammunitions given to Russia. This is not a widely discussed fact, but the French general was surprised with the way Russian fought. There were a couple of times when this Russian unit decided the fate of the battle, while being given the hardest assigments. Until of course a mutiny occured, since officially Russia had stepped out of the war, but the French didn't allow the Russian to go back home. But even today the children and grand children of these men come together once a year to remember the old ways.

Russia lost WW1 not because of the quality of men, but due to a lack of quality weapons. Also the communist propaganda among the soldiers made its work, as many refused to fight and left.

Back on topic, as soon as new lower and higher ranking officers stepped into the Red Army and began to get more familiar with their job, the way things work, they gathered experience and knowledge, Stalin saw a threat among them. So just before the WW2, in the middle 30s, around 90% of the higher ranking officers were once again wiped out. Thus the war started so terribly, as the newly promoted men didn't have any idea what to do.