Army Lists

[hoggy]

********************WARNING: This thread is outdated**********************
(Nonetheless, it give a very good and comprehensive overview of Hoggy's awesome works)


Japanese Army List

Infantry
Ashigaru
Yari Samurai
Naginata
Samurai Infantry
No-Dachi Heavy Samurai
Samurai Archers
Sohei Monks
Mighty Swordsmen
Kamikaze
Hero Ronin
Hero: Tomoe Gozen

Cavalry
Samurai Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Samurai Horse Archers
Samurai Heavy Cavalry


Concepts
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Japancolnew2.jpg

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/samhornew.jpg

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/SamOfficers.jpg

[hoggy]

Chinese Army list

Infantry
Peasants
Light Spearmen
Heavy Spearmen
Imperial Guard
Mace Infantry
Imperial Archers
Cho Ku No (Repeating Crossbowmen)
Shaolin Monks
Elite Imperial Guard
Tibettan infantry
Hero: Hong Shue Fei
Hero: Jian Sheng

Cavalry
Imperial Cavalry
Bactrian Archers
Light Chariot
Elite Archers/Scouts
Guan Yu cavalry

Special Units
Leopards
Fire lances (possibly)

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Chininfnew.jpg

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Chincav.jpg
Officers etc:
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/ChinOfficers.jpg

[hoggy]

http://hoggy.metw.net/other/badge2.pngDemon Army list

Infantry
Basket Demon Ronin
Undead Samurai
Zombie ashigaru
Rokurokubi
Ghost Geisha Fighters
Bakemono
Kappa Archers
Hanya
Noh Demons
Shreeking Hags
Snow Monkey Infantry
Wang Liang
4 arm warrior

Cavalry
Shishi Riders
Camel riding demons
Kappa Elephants
Beast Riders

Special Units
Bronze Dragon (with palanquin)

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Demonnew.jpg

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/japdem01a.jpg

Officers
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/DemOfficers.jpg

[hoggy]

Indian Army list

Infantry
Peasant Infantry (loin cloth, buckler and scimitar)
Krishnapur Swordsmen (ornate turban scimitar and shield)
Krishnapur Guard (ornate turban spear and shield)
Chakra Infantry
Golden warriors (ornate gold helmet early cone style)
Golden archers (ornate gold helmet early cone style)
Fanatic Tribesmen (dreadlocked with loincloth and club)

Cavalry
Horse Archers/Scouts
Krishnapur Lancers (ornate turban spear and shield)
Arjuna Chariots (ornate gold helmet early cone style after hero Arjuna)
Elephant Archers
War Elephants
Royal Elephants (ornate white elephant with minaret palanquin)

Special Units
Tigers

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/India_Infnew.jpg

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Indiacav.jpg

[hoggy]

Monk Army:

Infantry
Sohei monks
Shaolin Monks
Masters

Cavalry
Cavalry Monks

Leaders
Officer
Shrine standard

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Monks.jpg

[hoggy]

Mongol Army:

Infantry
Khanate warrior
Khanate Archer
Khanate Spears

Cavalry
Khanate Elite Cavalry archers
Khanate Cavalry

Leaders
Officer

Korean Army:

Infantry
Hwrang
Choson Elite Archers
Choson spears
Choson Warriors
Choson Infantry
Choson Firelancers

Cavalry
Goguryo Cavalry
Choson Scout Cavalry

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/koreaNew2.jpg

[hoggy]

Neutral Armies (ie remaining factions):
Infantry
Boar Spears
Eagle archers
Bear Warriors

Cavalry
Lion Cavalry

Leaders
Officers

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Neutral.jpg

Rebels/mercenaries:

Infantry:
re-use:
Boar Spears
Eagle archers
Bear Warriors
Samurai
Ashigaru
Chinese light Spears
Mace Infantry
Chakra Throwers
plus:
Ronin
Red Hair samurai
Ghost skull throwers
Tribal Spear
Fish men
Chakra Throwers
Hanuman
Yakuza
Dragon
4 arm woman
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/mercs01.jpg
Cavalry
re-use:
Lion Cavalry
Indian Horse archers
Khanate Elite Cavalry archers
plus:
Durga Cavalry
Giant Turtle Riders

[Saranalos]

What army lists I just see the names of the factions?~:(

[Big_John]

probably just place holders that he'll update later :)


otherewise this will be the most boring mod ever :wiseguy:

[The_678]

otherewise this will be the most boring mod ever :wiseguy:
lol

[hoggy]

Yep, I just wanted to make sure the most up to date army lists stay at the top of the thread really so these placeholders will keep them all together. I've updated them now (was too hung over yesterday ~:) )

[Jenns]

As I mentioned the following is based around my old notes and ideas for an Asian wargame I never got around to developing further. Its quite bulky and probably goes back over a lot of stuff you already have but feel free to borrow any parts that take your fancy (and pay no heed to the rest).

To begin, you’ve laid out several factions already but apart from the main regions individual branches, if any, still seem to be a bit up in the air. As such I’ll put forward my own suggestions for possible choices. The names given for the various regions below are their original names (as close as I can figure) and seem appropriate for a mythic pseudo-historical setting. Each region would have its basic unit available to all factions within that area and then special units available only to individual factions.

The various factions should ideally have some unit cohesion in terms of look and prowess, i.e. the various units should look good when brought together as well as by themselves and the army should have a particular focus in terms of gameplay, strong and weak points that distinguish it slightly from the others. So far there are 12 factions (I know ~;) pay no heed) I myself would consider worthwhile for current or future consideration, they and the possible character of their troops are as follows.

1) Western Shogunate (Progressive cultured Samurai army) - Very Disciplined, best spearmen
2) Eastern Shogunate (Old-fashioned, spirit worshipping Samurai) - Very Heavy Infantry
3) The Clan of the Bear (Civilised Korean human kingdom) - Best Archers
4) The Clan of the Tiger (Chaotic Korean spirit kingdom) - Almost entirely non-human
5) The Court of the Sun (Southern Chinese Empire) - Balanced Army, slightly stronger
6) The Court of the Moon (Northern Chinese Empire) - Balanced Army, slightly lighter & faster
7) The Jade Kingdom (Lord of the Spirit World) - Unbreakable troops
8) Dai Jiao - "the Evil Cult" (A sect of decadent anarchists) - Largest mobs of troops
9) The Barbarian Horde (Allied tribes on the Empires border) - Fastest Cavalry
10) The Sarvabhauma (Semi-Arabic Indian kingdom) - Mix of Light cavalry and Infantry
11) The Ekarat (Far Eastern Indian Kingdom) - Very heavy Cavalry
12) The Islands of Mist (Warrior-Monks) - Best close combat but small in number

[Jenns]

Yamatai (Japan)

Factions

The two halves of the country are fighting over which family will act as regent for the 10 year old boy king. The native spirits of the island have lent their aid to the humans they see as most in touch with their spiritual goals. The East is seen as more cultured and progressive while the West is more tribal and conservative.

1) Eastern Shogunate – Allied with spirits of heaven (Amatsu kami)
2) Western Shogunate – Allied with spirits of Earth (Kunitsu kami)

Units

0) Basic
Machi Yakko - Peasant Militia
Ashigaru Yari - Light (Hara-ate) Armor
Ashigaru Archers - Lt.Arm
Samurai Archers - Lt.Arm
Chugen - Samurai Squires, weak infantry, maybe scouts
Samurai Pavise archers - Lt.Arm
Samurai Naginata Light Foot - Medium (Do-maru) Armour
Samurai Sword Heavy Foot - Heavy (O-yoroi) Armour
No Dachi Heavy Foot - Lt.Arm
Samurai Light Cavalry - Med.Arm
Samurai Heavy Cavalry - Hvy.Arm
Samurai Mounted Archers - Med.Arm
Ronin Mercenaries - Shock troops, Med.Arm, poor morale
Hatamoto - Elite Bodyguard

1) Eastern Shogunate
Kamikaze - Unbreakable, cause fear
Shojosenshi (warrior maidens) - Morale boost to nearby troops
Kenshi - Best “giant-killer” unit in game
Sohei - High Morale, fast
Ikko-ikki - Fanatical monks, unbreakable
Omikoshi Sohei - Carry portable shrine, provide moral bonus to friendlies
Light Oyumi - Repeating Crossbow
Heavy Oyumi - Ballista
Kitsune - Fox Spirits, Spirit Archers, fox tails red hair, elven features
Tengu - Bird Spirits, Elite Swordsmen
(Note: Tengu also appear as Raven headed men in tall wooden sandals rather than masked dwarfs with long noses and imo look much more striking this way)

2) Western Shogunate
Kabukimono - Human bandits
Hengeyokai - Shapeshifters
Kappa - Water Spirits
Blue Oni
Red Oni
(Note: the Oni are the traditional Ogres and distinct from the masked Hanya – who is in actuality female)
Yamanba - Mountain Hags
Jikininki - Ghouls, Corpse Eaters
Kama-itachi - v. fast weasel monsters with sickle like claws (mammalian Raptors)
Kijo - Forest ogre
Kumo-kami - Giant spider spirits
Yasha - Giant vampire bat

[Jenns]

Choson (Korea)

The people of Choson are descended from Bear spirits to whom the Gods granted human form. The vengeful Tiger spirits who also sought this boon from the Gods but were refused have since that time attempted to bring chaos and ruin to the region.

Factions

1) Bear Clan
2) Tiger Clan

Units

0) Basic
Peasant Levy
Light Infantry
Archers
Light Cavalry

1) Bear Clan
Hwa Rang Light Infantry - Use triple bladed spears
Hwa Rang Heavy Infantry - Use swords
Hwa Rang Archers - Use composite bows
Hwa Rang Cavalry - Use spears
Sulsa - Special forces, more Green Beret than ninja
Chiha yo Changgun - Ancestral guardian spirits
Malgal Tribesmen
Bear Warriors (Can take massive amounts of damage)

[Note: Korean Medieval warriors have a distinct wide brimmed helmet that can help distinguish them from Chinese and Japanese troops.
Some examples can be seen here http://scheltrum.ironmammoth.co.uk/yidynasty.html Other troops often wear long headscarves. Officers often have Chinese style helmets but these could perhaps be ignored as with the other two types they have more of a clear identity]

[Note: to give them a distinct focus the Bear clan army can be made more missile oriented with the addition of the Repeating Crossbows and Artillery found on the Chinese list. The reason for this being of course that the bow is often given the reverence in Korea that the sword receives in Japan]

2) Tiger Clan
Human bandits
Chejun Giants
Kumiho - Malevolent fox spirits – missile skirmishers
Tokebi - Goblin light infantry
Tiger warriors - Berserkers

[Jenns]

Qin (China)

Factions

The sprawling Empire is so large that it is almost too much for anyone ruler to handle. Thankfully the land has two in the form of the unaging Emperor and Empress, twin brother and sister who have ruled for almost a thousand years. In Summer it is the Emperor’s laws that hold sway as new edicts are issued from his Court of the Sun in the Southern regions. In Winter however, power shifts to his sister whose commands flow from the Court of the Moon in the North.

Although over the centuries they have often come into conflict with one another, and sometimes occasional civil war, generally the find themselves allied against the other forces that threaten their great Empire.

On the Western borders various Barbarian tribes continue to press against the Empires boundaries, testing it for weakness and possible invasion routes. On the Eastern coast a vile cult that edifies degenerate behaviour and debauched excess, leading whole villages or regions in rebellion against the Imperial order. And of course, throughout the Empire, the perpetual shadow of the Jade Kingdom looms. The rulers of the land of the dead always seeking a return to the lands of the living or fresh souls to force into their servitude.

1) Court of the Sun
2) Court of the Moon
3) Jade Kingdom
4) Dai Jiao (the Evil Cult)
5) Barbarian Tribes

Units

0) Basic
Yibing - Peasants
Mubing - Peasant Militia
Light Infantry
Archers
Light Cavalry

1&2) Both Imperial Courts
Imperial Infantry
Imperial Crossbows
Imperial Cavalry

1) Court of the Sun
Fire Lances - Rudimentary, short-range flame-throwers
Rocket Artillery - [Good images of an medieval rocket cart can be found here http://www.koreanmonsters.com]
Brocade Guard - Royal Bodyguard, wear elegantly embroidered uniforms.
Zhanmajian Infantry - Anti-cavalry troops
Zhuge Nu - Machine Gun action repeating crossbow
Lian Nu - Shotgun action multiple crossbow
Tie Fu Tu - Heavy Infantry, Iron scale armour

2) Court of the Moon
Ying lan (brave orchids) - Warrior women
Ch'in-chun - Elite Cavalry
Gansi-Dui - Oath-bound Shock Troops
Tie Qi (iron riders) - Heavy cavalry
Shishi Riders - Chariots

3) Jade Kingdom
Jiang’shi - Hopping Zombies
Ghost warriors - Spectral versions of regular infantry
Ghost cavalry - Spectral versions of regular cavalry
Hand Maids - Flying ghost women
Palanquins - Undead Lords carried by lantern bearing servants


4) Dai Jiao (Evil Cult)
Bandits
Slave Troops – Captured villagers forced to fight one another in bear pits
Cultists - Drug Crazed Psychopaths
Cult Priests - Fanatical Wild-man Priests
Yang Liang - Horned Demons
Ch'uan-T'ou Skirmishers - Bat-winged people

5) Barbarian Tribes
Light Cavalry - Mtd Archers
Heavy Cavalry - Xiongnu Mtd Archers - Elite Archers
Wuhuan Light Cavalry - Very Fast
Mangudei Heavy Cavalry - Elite Mongol Shock Troops

[Jenns]

Bharat (India)

The battle among the countless princes of Bharat has is reaching its conclusions with two great Lords now posed to claim the title of “Samrat” king of the entire Indian sub-continent. The ancient gods of the land, the rival Devas and Asuras, now choose sides and watch the final stages of the game play out, lending their aid to those they deem most worthy of glory.

Factions

1) The Sarvabhauma – favoured by the Devas
2) The Ekarat – favoured by the Asuras

Units

1) Basic
Atavi skirmishers - Forest tribesmen
Sreni Infantry - Merchant Guild Spearmen
Bhrta Infantry - Low morale Merecenary light infantry
Bhrta Cavalry - Low morale Mercenary light cavalry
Maula Infantry - Hereditary light infantry
Maula Archers - Hereditary troops
Maula Cavalry - Hereditary light cavalry
Kshatria Infantry - Noble Heavy Infantry
Kshatria Archers - Noble longbowmen


2) The Sarvabhauma
Kamboja Horsemen - Elite Light Cavalry
Light Chariots - Heavy Chariots
Armored Elephants - Close combat role
Howdah Elephants - Missile support role
Saffron Guard - Robed fatalistic noblemen
Gurkhas - Aggressive close combat troops
Cera Archers - Elite Tamil archers
Apsaras - female water/wood spirits
Gandharvas - male nature spirits, half beast
Garuda - Bird men
Kinnaras - Horse-headed men, bonus to friendly morale

3) The Ekarat
Bahalika Cavalry - Elite Light Cavalry
Camel riders
Camel Archers
Nihang swordsmen - Elite Sikh warriors
Chakram skirmishers
Tomara skirmishers - Javelins
Bindipala Fighters - Heavy Clubs
Kanda Kodali axemen
Pata swordsmen - Long, thrusting gauntlet-swords
Mulf-I-khar swordsmen
Nagan swordsmen
Chota Nagpur axemen - Bullova two handed axe
Batak axemen - Kapak throwing axes
Rakshas - Skeletal demons
Naga - Men with the lower bodies of snakes
Dund riders - Headless horsemen
Abarimon skirmishers - Backwards feet, fastest runners

[Jenns]

Shangshung (Tibet)

The impassable mountains of this region rise far into the clouds and on the highest peaks sit the secret schools of the Shangshung warrior monks. These schools ring the tallest of all mountains in the world, the great Shen’bei’chang, at whose summit the Celestial Court can be found. This is the meeting place used by the various Earthly Gods to interact with one another and also with the divine creator itself. Among many of the mortal races it is said that any who can make their way here can become gods themselves, gifted with eternal life. Many have tried but so far none have succeeded.

Factions

1) Islands of Mist
2) Celestial Court – Unplayable Senate faction. The warring armies are fighting for ultimate control of this.

Units

1) Islands of Mist
Dan’chu (Dawn Students) - Yellow robed skirmishers, using throwing irons
Wu’chu (Noon Students) - Orange robed, shaven headed staff fighters
Gan’chu (Sunset Students) - Red robed swordsmen
He‘pai (White crane School) - Female warriors with iron fans
She‘pai (Snake School) - Top-knotted swordsmen
Hu‘pai (Tiger School) - Burly, black-bearded polearm fighters
Tang‘pai (Mantis School) - Sickle wielding white-bearded old men
Long‘pai (Dragon School) - Fire-breathing fat bald guys

2) Celestial Court
Unplayable but perhaps some unique guardians to kick ass in the end game.

[Big_John]

jenns, cool stuff! but it almost seems like you should maybe look into creating a whole new mod? i personally wouldn't mind seeing hoggy borrow some ideas of yours though. for me, your setup is a bit too fanciful, whereas hoggy's (as of yet) maybe is a bit too bound by historical concepts. a happy middle ground would be cool.

but a lot of your setup would require RTW modding capability that doesn't exist yet unfortunately :disappointed:

[Jenns]

Thanks John, I'd never have the time to work on a seperate Mod though. As I said, the lists above were for an old game concept I had that was left by the wayside due to other commitments. It also goes without saying that I'd never have the talent to bring such units to life that Hoggy seems to possess.

I've noticed that some of the uits above are doubled up, e.g. in Qin, Shishi Riders and chariots are seperate unit, as are the Barbarian Light Cav, Mtd Archers, Heavy Cav and Xiongnu Archers.

Just to note, the units above are all existing historical or mythical groups rather than any creation of my own.

Some other possible factions that weren't part of my discarded concept:

Island Kingdoms
Inlcuding both the South-Eastern tip of the continetal mass (Thailand, Burma, Vietnam, etc.) plus the various island regions (Philippines, Indonesia, Fiji, Borneo, etc.) that have untapped distinct cultures would nicely wrap up the entire Asian continent.

Conquistadors
European (or Arabic) Explorers in the vein of Columbus or Marco Polo who find a route to the mysterious east and try to set up a puppet kingdom, perhaps starting from a tiny island trading post (in the manner of Hong Kong).

[DemonArchangel]

Tibet=Xizang, you can't call it anything else.

[Big_John]

Tibet=Xizang, you can't call it anything else.lol, why not?

[Jenns]

Xizang is the current name for Tibet in Mandarin Chinese (since 1965). It refers only to the Tibet Autonomous Region which makes up about half of the old kingdom of Tibet which was comprised of three seperate regions (Amdo, Kham and Utsang) and was know in ancient times as the kingdom of "Shangshung".

[Big_John]

so it sounds to me like xizang is the last thing we should call it then :2thumbsup:

[Zafer]

I'm surprised there's not much emphasis on any Turco-Mongol factions........The Chinese built the Great Wall to keep us out you know :charge: :charge: :charge:

[Zanderpants]

Seriously! We need Mongolians! Kara-Khitai! Tatars! Merkids! Huzzah!
:charge: :charge: :charge: :medievalcheers:

"I need no fortune for I am a Mongol and I make my own future!"
~Me at Mongolian Barbeque.

[kendonosensei]

Some quick thoughts here.

Hoggy, for hero units, will we be going with an individual's name (eg Tomoe Gozen), or a group name (as I mentioned on the main thread)?

Now the Japanese naginata units. As the dev it's up to you, but why not make them a female unit? I like Jenns' idea of the "warrior maidens" but only if they are effective fighters as well. The wives and daughters of samurai were bushi themselves. I think it would be a waste if they were simply Japanese-looking "screeching women". Perhaps that would be a use for the "Joushigun" title I mentioned before.

Also, did those ordinary units of "geisha" tickle your interest? Because I think it might be a bit odd to have dead geisha warriors, if there were no live ones to begin with. If you made the ghost units "ethereal", then they can't easily be hurt by many weapons - the real geisha could be a counter to that. I think a geisha unit would also be a better source of moral for an army, than samurai women clad in armour.

[Kageka]

Well I PM´ed Hoggy about my idea for the Hanuman a few days ago and he suggested me to paste my PM here on the 'Army list'-forum since he may include them as mercenary troops, bandits or rebells on the Indian part of the map.


"Hi!

I do´'t know if you have read my post about the Hanuman on the 'General forum' and the 'Blue lotus forum' yet. The post is about to implement the Hanuman into the game, and hopefully as an entirly own faction.

I guess you and your team already have alot of your own ideas and probably dosen't need any new faction ideas... but here I go anyway


You know the god Hanuman, the monkey/ape featured humanoid that stands for guidance and wisdom, follower of Rama? Also called Sun Wukong in chinese mythology.


My idea was to make the race of ape-men (vanara) to be called after the great monkey god Hanuman (or Sun Wunkong in chinese mythology). In apperance they should look like him but less powerfull. Baybe some variation between the troops. Slim human looking creatures with silk fur (mostly yak-brown, some could be orangutang-red or snow monkey white), long tails and arms and monkey/chimpanse-like facial features (but still looking human in some way).


I have a few inspiring links/pictures here of Hanuman/vanara...
http://www.sjc-serbia.com/download/hanuman.jpg
http://deepak.portland.co.uk/images/hanuman.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/posmandir/hanuman.jpg
http://www.indianink.net/cards/hanuman.gif
http://www.swamishyam.org/hanuman-deco.jpg
http://www.warriorprincess.com/seas...Way/hanuman.jpg
http://www.pilgrimage-india.com/gifs/lord-hanuman.jpg
http://www.holymtn.com/gods/HAN-3med.jpg
http://www.ape-o-naut.org/famous/fa...ges/hanuman.jpg
http://images.google.se/imgres?imgu...hl%3Dsv%26lr%3D



Possible backround/fluff for the HANUMAN
A possible background story for the Hanuman/Sun Wukong could be that the Hanuman once where humans who lived in a templar empire deep in the jungle. They where at war with evil jungle spirits and lurking demon beasts (agents/outcasts of the Yomi empire?). The Hanuman won the war but the fallen enemie cursed them and their god. The powerfull curse turned both them and their god into mindless monkeys. But at time the god Hanuman woke from his haze and then; one by one, woke his faithfull followers and learned them how to speak and craft things again. Made them to vanaras.

Another story could be that Hanuman was a renegade god/spirit/demon of the Krishnapur or the Yomi empire. He fled to the southern jungles and hide their in a abandoned ruin city. After hundreds of years he got bored of the company of animal spirits and worked his magic and might on the monkeys that inhabited the ruins. He learned them how to speek, craft things, work togheter and in the end form them into warriors and guardians of Hanuman and his jungle kingdom.

A third possible story for the Hanuman could be that they are the heirs of the god Hanuman and his children: the monkey/ape spirits (vanara). They live in the deep of the jungle in their hidden temples and citys and only the friendly minded are allowed to enter their kingdom. This may be the possible seed of the conflict between the Krishnapur and the Hanuman. The Krishnapur who want to expand west find the Hanuman in the way and have successfully pushed them aside. But now has the conflict reached the point where the last strong jungle city of the Hanuman have mobilised. Ready to fight back the furless intruders. Some of the old ones even suggest that the Millenia of the Monkey god are att hand and that the known world shall be aware of the army of Hanuman and his children.



Cultural profile of the HANUMAN
I also have an idea when it comes to the way their culture could look. Since the Hanuman originate from hindu mythology they could be portraid indian style. But that would clearly make them just a mirror-faction to the Krishnapur.

Instead you could let them have a cultural apperance much like Thailand http://imagesoftheworld.org/thailand/01816.jpg blended with Indonesia http://www.globalgeografia.com/albu...a/borobudur.jpg

Another cultural apperance of the Hanuman civilisation could the be the one of the ancient tempel city of Anchor Vat (...or even the ruins of the monkey king in Mowgli). Dense owergrown SE-asian ruins.

Possible helmet designs of the elite Hanuman warrior:
http://geo.ya.com/travelimages/thai97.jpg
http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/lit...anumanfront.jpg
http://images.google.se/imgres?imgu...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN



End of part 1"

"Part 2.


Possible symbol and color-scheme of the Hanuman
White and Gold, or Pink and Green.
Their symbol could be a sillhuette of a tower á la Ankhor Vat style, or it could be the sillhuette of a crowned dancing monkey/hanuman.




Possible armylist of the HANUMAN

Warrior Hanuman
Standard melee units. Nearly naked, only wearing bronze/gold bracers/bracelets, necklease, open ornated bronze/gold helmets and similar things. Wears pink sarong-like skirts. Armed with short spears. They should have brown fur.

Hanuman Bowmen
Ranged units. Similar clothing/jewelry as the warriors except the helmets. They have golden tiara style headbands/hats. Wears green sarong cloth. Armed with indian horn bows. They could have orange fur. May probably only consist of female vanara?

Késari Warriors
Named after Hanumans father. Buff and strong. They are berserker like units with low defence and armor but does major damage. Almost naked except for the sarong cloth. Armed with two-handed Hanuman style mace. Brown fur.

Anjana guard
Named after Hanumans mother. They are slim and armed with dual saber like knifes. Fast and deadly and frightening. They looks like bowmen and warriors but have mask-like helmets (look far above*). They also have shoulder like pads of bronze or gold and gold ornated green cloth. They could have white OR black fur. May probably only consist of female vanara?

Old Monkey Wanderers
Named after the avatar name of Hanuman. Few in numbers and with no armor but does muches damage with area effect. They are old male (and female?) vanara with long braided white or greyish fur/hair and beards. They wear long white and pink robe-like cloth pieces and heavy ornated golden neckplates. They are armed with an Indian weapon I have forgot the name of. The weapon is like a sword but the blade is several meters long and much like thin and flat bands/strands of metal. The one who handle it use it much like a whip (a whip that can cut of limbs). Old Monkey Wanderers are slow but extremly deadly and have great closecombat range. They higher the morale of friends. Their downside is their small numbers.

Hanuman temple guard
Elite infantry. Looks much like the warriors but are taller and wear more armor. They have crowned helmets much like the one that Hanuman has in the portraits of him.
They wear green and pink sarong and are armed with hanuman style mace.

Serpent Spirits
Special infantry. Slow but inflict terror in their enemies. Looks like giant python. Good at killing/strangeling large enemie troops like elephants. But they are way to slow and large to counter human-sized enemies.

Tiger Spirits
Special infantry/cavalry. Looks like tigers with white glowing eyes and are twice (or trice?) the size of regular tigers. Good at killing moost troops but are few in numbers and quite slow, afraid of fire based attacks.

Hanuman Tiger Riders
Standard Hanuman cavalry. Hanuman warriors armed with spear (or maybe bows), riding on large tigers.

Rama Tiger Cavalry
Heavy cavalry. Hanuman tempel guardians armed with mace and shield, riding on great white tigers.

Jungle Tramplers
Special skirmisher cavarly. Hanuman bowmen sitting on dwarven elephants (elephants small/large as big working horses) with hanuman style golden tiara on their forheads.




Possible strategic traits and downsides for the Hanuman troops
They could get bonus when moving and fighting in forest or jungle terrain.
Or maybe have the "invicible" ability when they are in dense forests/jungles.

They could get higher moveabillity when moving through other troops because they can "climb" over troops.

They are good at retreat when you want them to. Good skirmishers.

They could get minus when moving or fighting on flat ground without any terrain.

They are quite weak compared to troops from other factions.

Their morale and fighting spirit will drop when trying to move them over waters/floods and bridges due their fear of water.



Thats it. I don't know if you like the idea of Hanuman as an own faction. But i really think a neutral/good non-human faction would make the game even more intressting!
*I really like the god Hanuman*

Well, if not worth considering then I hope it was atleast some good reading (even though my extremly crappy grammar).

Cheers!"


Now I asume that the army list will be reduced for the Hanuman. Also I agree with Ramareddy that the Hanuman should be called Vanara. I mostly agree with this because the original idea to call the monkey men is lost when they are not an own faction (called after their Kingdom and god - Hanuman). As mercenaries they should be more likely to be called by their race's name - Vanara. But if they will be a mini-faction then it would be nice if they will be called Hanuman or Sun Wukong.

[hoggy]

I've updated the japanese army list at the top of this thread with concepts for the assorted units of the japanese style armies.

[DragoonXXIV]

Great stuff as usual Hoggy. However i was wondering if it was possible to give Sohei thier own personal officer and banner bearer, possibly even a portable shrine. Also it would be cool if some units would have ninja scouts.

[hoggy]

We may be able to do this for the Monk faction and therefore should in theory be possible for Sohei used by other factions, I'll look into it. Ninja will probably only appear as spies/assasins on the strat map and as hirable units.

Ps. I've updated the link for the japanese concepts at the top of this thread. made alterations to concepts to incorporate unit changes etc.

[hoggy]

... and new India cavalry concepts above too.

[Furious Mental]

Those Kamikaze fellows remind me of Kikuchiyo from The Seven Samurai.

[dark_shadow89]

seeing how u have Guan Yu Cavalry, why not also have Lu Bu Heavy Infantry, as Lu Bu was probably the finest warrior of his time (3 kingdoms period).

[hoggy]

.. and a new concept for Chinese officers/standard bearers etc in post 2

FuriousMental - yep that's who the kamikaze are based on. Just a shame i can't capture the intensity.

dark_shadow - The Guan Yu cavalry were added to replace the war chariot but the chinese are are full up for infantry at the moment. Maybe Lu Bu can appear as a mercenary unit later.

[Furious Mental]

I think you captured it well- had you not, I wouldn't have caught on to the resemblance!

[hoggy]

The mongol, korean, monk and rebel armylists have been updated at the top of this thread.

[Moros]

looking great tough
No mangudai for the mongol faction? And will the priests get a "magic" unit?

[DragoonXXIV]

Overall looks good, but a few suggestions.
Firstly don't make the mongol elite calvary archers be mercs, when the mongols were used as merc they usually were used as shock troops not in thier traditional fashion. In this vein i think that the mongols should also have another lesser calvary, a type of light calvary composed of younger men trying to prove themselves, this than would be the unit available as mercs.
Also i think that the Koreans should have a mystic or a bare handed martial-artist unit to help balance the faction out and make it more unique.
Other than that, great stuff, i'd love to see your concept art, which by the way is excellent, for these new factions.

EDIT: Sorry, just remembered. The Koreans were quite fond of the No-dachi after it was introduced to them by the japanese invasion. Just an idea.

[hoggy]

cheers guys.

Note: updated demon army list with concepts for demon officers/standard bearer etc.

[shifty157]

That is decidedly NOT something i would want to see following me down the street late at night.

Or at all for that matter.

[Moros]

Just a question but what kind off special units will Japan the mongol faction and korea get. While China has leopards, buffalo chariot, camels, fire lancer chariots. India has Elephants and chariots. Demons have lots of special units but Japan, Mongols and korea? not one at this moment!

[shifty157]

The mongols should have some form of primitive gunpowder explosive. Expensive, inaccurate, with low ammo, but deadly. Perhaps something like the thunder bombers from STW:MI. They were basically just slingers with explosives. You could just use the head hurler animation.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2001/pc/str/shogunexp/shogunexp_screen005.jpg

[Moros]

thx for the awnser shifty!
And those explosive slingers would really be cool!

[hoggy]

I'm afraid the mongols are what I'm calling a mini faction (as are korea) ie a faction with fewer units. This is a limitation due to lack of time. Hopefully in future the Mongol faction could be expanded, other units might include wolf handlers and shamans but it depends on time really. Some top unit ideas though.

[Moros]

I'm afraid the mongols are what I'm calling a mini faction (as are korea) ie a faction with fewer units. This is a limitation due to lack of time. Hopefully in future the Mongol faction could be expanded, other units might include wolf handlers and shamans but it depends on time really. Some top unit ideas though.
that's really a shame, cause I'd loved to see even more crazy units but this is still going to be supermod! :charge:

[dessa14]

i really forgot how terrible the graphics of the explosions were in stw...
i think keeping them as a mini faction for now is the best idea, as they aren't a vital part to the playability of the game and it would take too long to add them completely to the game.

[PROMETHEUS]

I like those concept art drawins , who is the author of them?
Btw The mod looks really amazing , but I am asking myself where comes from all this ideas or informations of units ? is it based on what , imagination or legend? and the supposed timeframe what should it be?

[shifty157]

Hoggy makes the concepts. The demon units are based on cultural legend however they are not confined to it. There is no specific timeframe for the other factions and their units. Again they are historically based but they are not confined by our history. This is a fantasy mod with flavorings of far eastern culture and history.

I hope I answered that to Hoggy's satisfaction.

[Abokasee]

Mongals Should Have Lots Of Cavalry They Focused On Cavalry In Their Armys They Were In Massed Numbers Too!

[Kurogane]

Hey.

I was googling for a samurai mod for RTW, and came across this mod. It looks fantastic! I can't wait to get a working version. From the screenshots, it looks like it'll be great.

By the way, are the concept drawings originals?

- Kuro

[hoggy]

Abokasee - I agree but in TW a faction only able to build cavalry will never win battles. People would simply field spearmen and archers against the mongols. As it is the Mongol cavalry will be cheap and plentiful but they have the ability to create infantry too.

Kurogane - glad you like the mod. the drawings are originals and are done to help me work out what the units will look like and for the unit cards.

[HunkinElvis]

I liked these characters.

http://animax.ru/shots/the_monkey_king.jpg

http://www.rgosborne.com/photos/china/210_std.jpg

[hoggy]

Cheers Hunkinelvis, I hope you don't mind I moved these here:

http://img.airspider.com/image/00/12/03/00120338_2.jpg http://img.airspider.com/image/00/12/03/00120339_2.jpg

http://img.airspider.com/image/00/66/47/00664783_2.jpg There used to be a pond at the front of this temple.

http://img.airspider.com/image/00/57/47/00574708_2.jpg

[hoggy]

and these from HunkinElvis too, excellent reference cheers:

Generals or Admirals
http://img.airspider.com/image/00/74/37/00743736_2.jpg


Hwarang Cavalry (Silla, 5th century)
http://img.news.yahoo.co.kr/picture/15/20040630/1520040630_10921475.jpg

http://img.news.yahoo.co.kr/picture/15/20041010/1520041010_12853488.jpg

Hwacha (Chosun, 16th century)
http://hall.ksf.or.kr/presenter/choimuseon/swf/choimuseon_26.jpg

[hoggy]

A slight change to the indian army list. I can't remember who mentioned it but the gurkhas are been dropped in favour of Chakra throwers
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/chakra.jpg

[Moros]

they look cool but can't you have both :( :(
btw: Nice concept draw

[ramareddy]

I was the guy that requested Chakra Throwers, are you taking into consideration the "Manthra" ability that I mentioned also?

[Ferocious_Imbecile]

As I mentioned the following is based around my old notes and ideas for an Asian wargame I never got around to developing further. Its quite bulky and probably goes back over a lot of stuff you already have but feel free to borrow any parts that take your fancy (and pay no heed to the rest).

To begin, you’ve laid out several factions already but apart from the main regions individual branches, if any, still seem to be a bit up in the air. As such I’ll put forward my own suggestions for possible choices. The names given for the various regions below are their original names (as close as I can figure) and seem appropriate for a mythic pseudo-historical setting. Each region would have its basic unit available to all factions within that area and then special units available only to individual factions.

The various factions should ideally have some unit cohesion in terms of look and prowess, i.e. the various units should look good when brought together as well as by themselves and the army should have a particular focus in terms of gameplay, strong and weak points that distinguish it slightly from the others. So far there are 12 factions (I know ~;) pay no heed) I myself would consider worthwhile for current or future consideration, they and the possible character of their troops are as follows.

1) Western Shogunate (Progressive cultured Samurai army) - Very Disciplined, best spearmen
2) Eastern Shogunate (Old-fashioned, spirit worshipping Samurai) - Very Heavy Infantry
3) The Clan of the Bear (Civilised Korean human kingdom) - Best Archers
4) The Clan of the Tiger (Chaotic Korean spirit kingdom) - Almost entirely non-human
5) The Court of the Sun (Southern Chinese Empire) - Balanced Army, slightly stronger
6) The Court of the Moon (Northern Chinese Empire) - Balanced Army, slightly lighter & faster
7) The Jade Kingdom (Lord of the Spirit World) - Unbreakable troops
8) Dai Jiao - "the Evil Cult" (A sect of decadent anarchists) - Largest mobs of troops
9) The Barbarian Horde (Allied tribes on the Empires border) - Fastest Cavalry
10) The Sarvabhauma (Semi-Arabic Indian kingdom) - Mix of Light cavalry and Infantry
11) The Ekarat (Far Eastern Indian Kingdom) - Very heavy Cavalry
12) The Islands of Mist (Warrior-Monks) - Best close combat but small in number
That's very cool. Those are some excellent sounding names. "Court of the Sun", "Court of the Moon"..."The Evil Cult".

It's great to see that so many people still have vivid imaginations..

And I sure wish Hoggy would combine his great graphic skills and vivid imagination with a lot of Jenn's superb concepts. They're very poetically allusive...


Kurogane - glad you like the mod. the drawings are originals and are done to help me work out what the units will look like and for the unit cards.

Hoggy, I'm an artist myself, and I have to say, as amazing as your talents as a modeller are in 3D Max, your effortless freedom with pen and ink are amazing. In particular I'm envious of your horses. I swear, CA should hire you to redo all their horses, if nothing else...

[Kageka]

Hi again. Been lurking on the forum for awhile (without posting though) and I have to say that Hoggy & Co are god sent modders. Looks wonderful. :bow:

I saw on the other forum that Hoggy requested pictures and stuff with/about korean units. Wel I found some, most of them are from the "historical" movie MUSA.




Heavy infantry/bodyguard:

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa32.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa63.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa64.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa81.jpg

http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/ancient1.jpg



Mix of warriors, monks, archers and captains:

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa2.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa3.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa5.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa8.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa93.jpg

http://www.atarn.org/korean/ia1.gif

http://img.kbs.co.kr/cms/ICSFiles/afieldfile/2003/12/24/b_0021.jpg



Heavy cavalry:

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa35.jpg

http://koolouis.new21.net/murim/musa/musa61.jpg

http://www.mygoguryeo.com/heroes_img/heroes03_main_pic00.gif[url]



War scenes/paintings:

[url]http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/bottle1.jpg

http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/ancient2.jpg

http://www.kuksoolwon.com/images/history03.jpg

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/305/anshi2.jpg



PHwarang pics from another strategic war game:

http://apolyton.net/ron/factsheets/images/nations/korean.gif

[hoggy]

excellent stuff Kageka, cheers :bow:

[Kageka]

I hope the links with the pictures could be of some help. However, I snooped around a little bit more and found a few more ancient Korean warrior picture-links that may be of some use.



A detailed bronze sculpture head of a warrior:

http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/images%5CGoguryoUlchiMunduk.jpg



Paintings of korean warriors:

http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/pages/Generals.htm

http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/GoguryoBattle.jpg



Suits/clothing, semi-useful:

http://home.att.net/~taekwondo.junkie/soldierunif.jpg

http://www.koreanie.co.kr/edu_data/dream/massonize/image/Goguryo%20protest2.jpg





I also checked the old replies on the other threads and found some useful links posted by Big John...


Korean/Hwarang crossbowman and a bamboo gunner:

http://img71.exs.cx/img71/6007/hang1.jpg


More pictures, links and info can be found on:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=141&PN=0&TPN=1
A useful forum that discuss ancient korean warfare.



You mentioned that you searched for pictures of korean warriors that looked as different as possible from the chinese troops. I guess thats the right way to go since korean armor and battle gear looks quite similar to the chinese.

I think by using the special traits as much as possible may do the trick and make the koreans look less chinese. Special traits like the plate turtle necks (common for Koguryeo warriors), the flat redbanded black "amish-like" hats (common for archers and crossbowmen) and the heavy platemail suits/armour (including platemail pants for heavy cavalry).


I have asked before about the use of gunpowder in the game and the chinese fire lances seem to be the only ones with explosive power. But there are so many good pictures and info-links about ancient korean guns, cannons, bombs and rockets that its a shame not to include them. At least I feel so (I am a sucker for really old guns). But I guess that guns is out of the question since the mod has gone so far and already have found its form and style.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hey great..you may want to look at this thread straight off.

Most pictures in back of thread.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1898

[Gubook Janggoon]

Here are some specific cool pics.

http://img220.exs.cx/img220/3843/ukkorea0ue.jpg
http://img44.exs.cx/img44/2588/u7.jpg
http://img23.exs.cx/img23/305/anshi2.jpg
http://img44.exs.cx/img44/3511/images_GoguryoSoldier.jpg
http://img46.exs.cx/img46/732/rider1.jpg
http://img9.exs.cx/img9/7876/hwacha.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/7212/013fh.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/9437/0815tq.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/8104/050110l6lg.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/1665/0250000000017cx.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/3985/b1018sh.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/5167/chung035ps.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/7218/daegaya0ig.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/3734/dongmyeong8rg.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/5112/emar62pv.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/3153/gimg13cd.gif
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/5125/goryeo8av.png
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/2426/gwanggaeto231ff.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/7939/gyebaek1qy.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/851/haengjusaml7jb.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/9530/hwarang4vq.jpg
http://img30.echo.cx/img30/3345/ia12hp.gif
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/4654/kwakcha1eu7uk.jpg
http://img27.echo.cx/img27/7133/kwangm2pq.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/9109/s1hv.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/8387/samguk0039co.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/1497/samguk1039am.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/4457/tae15wl.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/1695/yisun4bo.jpg
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/8063/sky1ei.jpg

Right two are Goguryeoan
http://img62.echo.cx/img62/8110/sui0sy.jpg



Hope this helps. That's all for now.

Cheers
-GJ

[Gubook Janggoon]

This forum really needs an edit option.

BTW, I'm a moderator at both

www.chinahistoryforum.com

www.allempires.com/forum

These are both good places to find out about the histories and armies of the subject nations. cheers!

[hoggy]

exellent stuff guys.

I've put a concept up for the monk faction (post no.5 in this thread). they reuse some earlier units mostly but are only a minority faction.

[Gubook Janggoon]

exellent stuff guys.

I've put a concept up for the monk faction (post no.5 in this thread). they reuse some earlier units mostly but are only a minority faction.


You're an amazing artist.


Wow..


Here's some more korean stuff I found.

http://img70.echo.cx/img70/6610/jangbogo8mv.gif
http://warmemo.co.kr/image/image_120/warhistory/three_kingdoms/warrior.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/TDscorpion/BattlebwPaekcheandShilla.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/TDscorpion/KoguryofightingSuiarmy.jpg
http://www.taekwon-do-illertissen.de/images/Krieger.JPG
http://www.yescall.com/hwarangdo/images/main.gif
http://img70.echo.cx/img70/5817/hwang24ci.jpg

This would be the general uniform of a Shilla Hwarang.

http://img70.echo.cx/img70/3612/hwarang25uw.jpg


They would have worn light armor me thinks and they wore lots of make up. Hwarang means flower knight so they were chosen from the best looking guys. Most Koreans would have a beard, but not the Hwarang because they were generally young kids. General Sadaham was only 15 when he began to lead battles against Baekje.

I've used paint to depict what this guy should look like.

http://img54.echo.cx/img54/4458/hwarang34oc.jpg

Not that great, but you get the idea.

The Hwarang was basically a patriots club who's members often went to war for their nation. Most likely these individuals would have been on horse back because they were of noble blood. From a movie I watched a while back, they were depicted as using spears and bows. Kind of a light calvalry i guess.


Hope that helps.

[Kageka]

Hoggy

excellent concept art. One question though; there doesn't seem to be any monk units for ranged combat (such as archers, javelin chuckers, crossbow men...)... or is the Masters-unit some kind of battle mage able to throw balls of fire or bolts of lightning?




Gubok Jangoon

I see what you're coming at about the Hwarang-do, and I think thats the right way to go. It will give the Choson a more distinct look and feeling. First we have the heavy cavalry with heavy platemail (with platemail pants!!!) and plate turtle neck armor... and then we have the lightly armored and sophisticated hwarang (with makeup!!!). Two very different troop types that together form the ways of a united faction.

By the way, I really like the two historical forums you are a moderator for.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hoggy


Gubook Jangoon

I see what you're coming at about the Hwarang-do, and I think thats the right way to go. It will give the Choson a more distinct look and feeling. First we have the heavy cavalry with heavy platemail (with platemail pants!!!) and plate turtle neck armor... and then we have the lightly armored and sophisticated hwarang (with makeup!!!). Two very different troop types that together form the ways of a united faction.

By the way, I really like the two historical forums you are a moderator for.


Haha that would be the idea. Hm..the Goguryeo calvalry were more lamellar armour types than plate mail though. Hehe..

I'm glad you like the sites I work at. :D

[Gubook Janggoon]

Oops, sorry plate maile is lammellar. Haha, my bad. :bow:

[Gubook Janggoon]

I've also found this site.

http://warmemo.co.kr/english/exhibition/02/ex_02_02.htm

The ones that would be pertinant to this project would be the 3 kingdoms, Koryo, and Chosun sections. The Taehan empire may help a bit.

[Gubook Janggoon]

http://world.kbs.co.kr/src/images/akorea_click/050530_l.jpg
http://haenara.net/bbs/zboard/data/h_cpds/Korea_02_72p.jpg


I also wanted to bring this Goguryeoan wall mural to attention.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/1281/0175_2.jpg


In it one can see both Archers/Crossbowmen and Axemen.

The Archers are wearing the black hats, different from the Amish style hats of Joseon, and have armor. On the other hand the Axemen wear red hats and have no armor.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Here's a clearer view of the axemen.

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/5936/images_Soldiers.jpg


Here are some other Goguryeo pictures.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/8492/cavalry1.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/1592/images_ArmyMarch.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/6050/images_ArmyMarch2.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/180/images_chariot.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/317/images_koguryo-29.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/2337/kubuk.jpg
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/7259/ssirumkoguryo.gif
http://img65.exs.cx/img65/4803/demonsfriend.gif
http://img68.exs.cx/img68/931/koguryoiskorea.jpg
http://img183.exs.cx/img183/4082/mailarmor.jpg



Here's stuff from Joseon.
http://img9.exs.cx/img9/7876/hwacha.jpg
http://img9.exs.cx/img9/7739/newyi.jpg
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=78


Gaya federation: They were generally plate armor oriented. But this type of armor was proved inferior to the more popular lamellar type of the other kingdoms.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/2185/gaya-9.jpg
http://img139.exs.cx/img139/7325/0150_2.jpg
http://img46.exs.cx/img46/8043/kaya1.jpg

Miscellaneous:
http://img9.exs.cx/img9/8076/horse11.jpg

[eouia]

Well, its great work this mod, i've seen. I can hardly wait the mod releasing.
anyway, have you some time for more Korean information?

1. Symbol
The ancient Korean respect some supernatural subjects.

The Sky - It is holded in common on Manchu-Siberian. the origin of Korean race(called "Han" race) came from there. many traditional cultures of Northern Asia(Manchu, Mongol, Siberia) are similiar with each other. frankly, Korean is more akin to Mongolian than Chinese. The Sky is equivalent to The GOD. it is not Creator, but Harmonizer. The old tale tell us that the first Korean people came from the Sky.

The BongHwang(Phoenix) - The Imaginary symbol of Chinese is the Dragon. But them of Korean are Birds. The BongHwang is one of them. "Bong" means King of birds, "Hwang" means Queen. The Ancient Han-race use this for their symbol.

The SamJokOh(tripod-crow) - Another bird symbol. The crow with tripod means Sun. or an envoy of gods. GoGuRyo Kingdom use this symbol.
I think this is the best symbol for this mod. it's artistic design can't be out-of-fashioned. you can see it below.
http://www.hsdu.ac.kr/01_about/img/p5_04.gif
http://ekee.nafeel.net/pattern/bird/img/bird06.jpg
http://www.asadal.com/company/asadal/image/logo_img01.gif
(I don't know why JFA-Japan Football Association use this their symbol. :dizzy2: )

another symbols:
the Tiger is always friendly animal with Korean.
the Blue-Red TaeGuk(Taichi, Yin-Yang) is relatively modern symbol used after 19c.
White is symbolic color of Korean.


2. Strategy & Arms
The major weapon of Korean is the bow. From beginning to the end, the bow is domestic. "DongYi", other name of Han-race called by Chinese means "Eastern Great Bow-man". yes, Korean is a natural-born archer.
Less plain, more forests and mountains make battle strategy of Han race restricted. Carvalry is difficult to use. Heavy Armor? its non-sense.

well, there is no rule without execption. "GaeMa Carvalry" is it. The GoGuRyo Empire had great iron covering carvalries. they command the Continent. but you must know this. GoGuRyo was not settled on Han-penninsular. they ruled Manchu - the great plain of northern Asia.

except "GaeMa", many of korean soldiers used bow and spear for their primary weapon.

sword or knife are rared. most soldiers are not standing army. they had no time for learning swordmanship. the spear is easy to learn. and it is effective in melee.
"DangPa" is the most basic weapon for ChoSeon Dynasty Infantry. it is a kind of trident. it is two handed weapon. so they can't use shields.
http://www.ohmynews.com/down/images/1/bluekb_161058_6[225566].jpg

"JangChangDang(Long-Spear-Party)" is Korean Hoplite(?). its usage is similiar with those of Spartan. the infantry of Shilla use this Long-Spear for stopping charge of carvalry. the length of spear is about 4m 80cm. they stop the charge, and make to fall the enemy riders down. then, the axe-man attack the fallen riders.

most soldiers had light armor - cloths, leather. on Korean topographical condition, heavy armor is uncomfortable. after long-ranged arrow shotting, fast charge and hit is the capital offensive strategy. on deffensive, they use covering. like mountain, forests, castle, fortress. so, there is no need for shields or heavy armor.

I think Korean bowmen is analogous to English Long-Bowmen. The range of Korean Bow is above 150m. maximum is 500m. it might be terrific for their enemy. many generals who had invaded to Korea are killed by arrow, not sword.

The Officers had the sword. but it was not for melee. it was used for commanding or self-protection. the principal majors of officer training were horse-riding and archery. even civillians trained archery. they believe it should be good at mental training.
so, light carvalry armed with bow. the horseback archery was most important skill for carvalry. After GoGuRyo, heavy carvalry is not used any more.

Officers weared cloth or leather armor for activity. Generals weared Studded Leather Armor, Scale Male, Brigandine Armor. Heml was also.

Rockets and Powder is another power of Korean. When Japanese developed musketguns, Korean developed cannons.
The granade was used in late 14c.
"ShinGiJeon(Mystic-Arrows)" is definitely very interesting weapon. it is old version of nowadays MLRS. with power of powder, multi-big rockets(lenght about 140cm) are shot automatically. the range is about 1000m. it was invented by in 1448. it is the oldest rocket weapon in the world.
http://bingoimage.naver.com/data/bingo_29/imgbingo_73/jinsoolove20/5725/jinsoolove20_33.jpg
http://bingoimage.naver.com/data2/bingo_72/imgbingo_82/fhdps/17498/fhdps_24.jpg

"HwaRang"s are not soldiers. they are similiar with "Boy-Scouts". they learn and train for future honor. most of them are son of nobles. so they respect honor and loyalty. if it shall come in this mod, it is good to describe them like light cavalries or junior chivalries.



oops. too long. sorry for my poor English. I hope this useful for more fantastic BL.
i hope to tell you more about real historic Korean war-heroes soon.
have a nice day.

[Kageka]

Eouia

Cool and interesting facts about ancient/medieval Korean warfare and spirituality.


But you got to have in mind that this mod ain't a historical mod (atleast I have understand it that way). Blue Lotus is rather a myth-based fantasy-mod based on Asian cultures and mythologies.

This gives Hoggy & Co freedom to alter things, meaning that the Choson (Korean faction) doesn't have to follow one single historical time-period by the numbers. They can add and withdraw attributes to make the faction more interesting and diverse.

Guess you already figured that out but I had to say it anyway.



I personally like the idea of commanding Goguryo-based Heavy Cavalry with full body platemail armor and plate turtleneck armor. This combined with robe wearing archers with hats and so on...

A faction with two extremes (we have heavy armored melee cavalry and the we got different types of light/non armored infantry mainly focused on archery) and no real allround units would be interesting and "unique".

It may not be historically correct but it will look good and really give Choson a distinct look that doesn't reminds of the two Chinese factions.

[eouia]

Here is an interesting article for Korean military-arts. (nice pictures are on the link.)
http://ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=260856&ar_seq=2

The traditional Korean Military-Arts show is going on everyday in "Hwa Castle", Suwon, Korea.

"MuYe 24Gi"(The 24 Skills of Military-Arts) was arragned on AD.1790.(in era of King JeongJo, ChoSeon Dynasty)
Officers of Army had to study those. the skills are composed with variable weapons or physical masterys. u can see the English description of those from here
http://www1.suwon.ac.kr/~bluekb/martial.html

[hoggy]

Some really excellent stuff guys. I'll try to bear as much in mind as possible when concepting the korean faction. Top stuff.

[hoggy]

Hoggy

One question though; there doesn't seem to be any monk units for ranged combat (such as archers, javelin chuckers, crossbow men...)... or is the Masters-unit some kind of battle mage able to throw balls of fire or bolts of lightning?

oops sorry missed this kageka, the masters will hurl flaming blue lotuses as a deadly missile weapon.

[Kageka]

Hoggy

Ah cool. Feels like the Monks are the head act in the game (Blue Lotus) in one way... their symbol is a blue lotus and their ranged units fires burning blue lotuses. ~:cheers:


Well I watched the army lists once again (well I love those concept pics you have drawn, wonderful stuff) and there was one unit that I felt to be a wee bit "misplaced" and superfluous.


I am talking about the Tibetan Infantry.

1.
First of all I think that the name doesn't fit. The reason is that world of Blue Lotus is a fictional fantasy/mythological world, not our world. Thats the way I have understand it after reading all your (an your crew's) posts about the game. Therefore there can't be no Tibet. Ok there may be a place similar to Tibet, but i doubt that it will have the same name as our world's Tibet. Call them something else... maybe Northern Guardsmen.

2.
Secondly I doesn't see the use for the Tibetan Infantry in an army as broad AND specialized as the two Chinese ones. I mean we have four spear/pike-using infantry unit types already. Two of them wear helmets and armor and one of them have shields as well. I think that the four other spear man-units have their potent place and using in war, which render the Tibetan Infantry superfluous.

3.
The Tibetan Infantry concept pic and the 3D-model is excellent in every way, so I don't think that it should be nerfed from the mod though. I think that the Tibetan Infantry (Northern Guardsmen?... ~D ) should be an mercenary unit able to be hired in some mountain-territory resembling to Tibet or Nepal.

4.
Another option is to include the Tibetan Infantry (Northern Guardsmen?... ~;) ) into the Monk-faction. Why do I suggest this? Well if remember it correct the Monk-faction was to be inspired/influenced by Buddism and Tibet. Well why not make the Tibetan Infantry the cheap stand-back defence typ-o unit?

This will also make the Monk army list a bit more interesting due more units to choose from.


Well that was just some thoughts of mine. I don't know if they can contribute to anything though.

[DragoonXXIV]

I disagree with you Kageka.
I think the Tibetan Infantry have a very good purpose, namely as specialty troops. To be more specific they should get a hefty bonus for being in the woods and a modest bonus for being in snow. This way they can make great anchors for your spear line, while the other spearmen severe only as general troops maybe even have a disadvantage in snow due to heavy armor.
As to they're name, i personally like Tibetain Infantry, if you say northern guard then they would be associated with Mongolia, however if you say Tibetan everyone has a clear idea of thier climate and temperment.
Also i think you raise a valid point about thier affiliation, to me it would make sense that they are extremely disciplined due to thier buddhist upbringing and could also work for the monks (possibly under a different name, i.e. Tibetan Templars) but i don't think they should be mercanaries due to thier elite nature and added historical context.

[Kageka]

DragoonXXIV

Hmm, well you have a good point about the Tibetan Infantry doing its purpose as a specialized unit. A sturdy unit meant for fighting in snow and woods. But still, there are already four spear-based units... I have a hard time to understand how none of them, in constellations with other trooptypes, can't fight properly without a fifth spear unit such as Tibetan Infantry. I can't help it but I really find the Tibetan Infantry more as a Monk faction unit option than a Zuanshi/Yuwan (Chinese) unit option.


I still think its wrong to name the unit Tibetan Infantry. I mean its like adding a archer type of unit in a "Middle Earth" game and call it English Longbowmen, while there is no England (and therefor no englishmen)in "Middle Earth". Same goes for the tibetans. There are no Tibet in Blue Lotus because its a asian mythological fantasy world, not our world (atleast I have understand it that way), and therefore there are no tibetans.


I agree with you that the substitute name I suggested is misleading. Northern Guardsmen leads the thoughts to Mongolia. But instead they could be called Templar Guardsmen, Monastery Infantry, Templar Infantry, Mountain Guardsmen, Monastery Guardsmen or Mountain Infantry.

Another idea could be to exchange the prefix Tibetan and change it for something that sounds pretty much the same or just reminds of tibetan.

(Lhasa) Lhasar Infantry
(Tibetan) Tibhutan Infantry
(Ladakh) Laudak Infantry
(Amda, Kundun) Umdun Infantry


Just some suggestions and ideas from a (I hope not that annoying) Blue Lotus fan.

[DragoonXXIV]

Kageka

Frankly i think the Chinese faction has too many units, but that's just me, also the 4 other spearman units they have, have a clear hierarchy (kindly like the pike hierarchy in vanilla R:TW). None of them have clear differences or markings as specialists units, but the tibetans do. If anything i think the regular spearman should be kicked.

As for the name... I guess it's just a matter of opinion, however you can't say there isn't a Tibet in Blue Lotus, even though the mod is original and mythological it does have very clear parallels in real histroy. What i mean is, using your same argument they should rename Samurai, Sohei, Shaolin, Krishnapur, Hwarang-Do, etc. because these are very specific names and titles.

Anyway that's just my opinion. This is Hoggy's mod, and since i'm not paying for it, i can't complain. I can suggest things and argue complaints, but i can't complain.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I tend to agree with Kageka here. We shouldn't be naming units after real live places. For one, city names are being made up and another it doesn't really seem to fit.

Just a note here. Let's not call the Hwarang "Hwarangdo". Hwarangdo means way of the Hwarang. That doesn't really make sense for a unit name..(In Korean anyways).


Here are some more pics.

Korean royal body guard:

They would be wearing red.

http://img159.echo.cx/img159/1457/royalguard3qx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Chariots:

http://img159.echo.cx/img159/9482/chariotreal2lu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Various weapons.

http://img159.echo.cx/img159/2338/scan00022ro.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Ok, here the one that says 중국검 and 중국식 협도 are Chinese style weapons.

The ones that say 왜겸 and 왜식 협도 are Japanese style weapons.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Found this bugger too.

http://img51.echo.cx/img51/3784/sian10082005032119074703ko.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Kageka]

DragoonXXIV

"Frankly i think the Chinese faction has too many units, but that's just me, also the 4 other spearman units they have, have a clear hierarchy (kindly like the pike hierarchy in vanilla R:TW). None of them have clear differences or markings as specialists units, but the tibetans do. If anything i think the regular spearman should be kicked."

Ok we seem to agree on the part that there are to many units in the Chinese faction. But we disagree on the part on what unit that should be "ditched".
I still find the Tibetan Infantry not a wathertight Chinese faction unit, still think it would fit better as a Monk faction unit.


"As for the name... I guess it's just a matter of opinion, however you can't say there isn't a Tibet in Blue Lotus, even though the mod is original and mythological it does have very clear parallels in real history. What i mean is, using your same argument they should rename Samurai, Sohei, Shaolin, Krishnapur, Hwarang-Do, etc. because these are very specific names and titles."

Yes ofcourse I can see that the mod has clear parallels to our world, but it isn't our world. And it is a difference in calling a japanese looking warrior Samurai than calling a unit by its geographical name. I mean Samurai, Sohei, Shaolin doesn't refer to a country/nation from our world, but Tibetan does (referring to Tibet).

Lets take an other example by comparing with some more or less medieval european fantasy world. They can include knights, paladins, barbarians, druids, crusaders etc. and still not clash with our world. But if they include English Bowmen, Gauls, Germans, Roman legioneers, Norse Vikings etc. then they have referred to countries/nations/people from our world. It sounds strange since England, Gaul, Germania, Rome or Norway doesn't exist in that world with its own countries/nations/people.

But if the world of Blue Lotus is in fact the same as our world then there is no problem if some units refer to countries/nations/people from our world.


"Anyway that's just my opinion. This is Hoggy's mod, and since I'am not paying for it, i can't complain. I can suggest things and argue complaints, but i can't complain."

I fully agree with you here (for my own account as well). I'am just suggesting things and present ideas that Hoggy & Co may find useful in some way. But in the end I have nothing to say that can change things since it isn't my mod. And like you I don't complain. What is ithere to complain about? This mod has fantastic graphics and models (looks better than the original ones in RTW), it is original and has really interesting factions and armies to choose between.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I was thinking about Korean standards and though...

Hm..how about the Korean war drum? Here are some pics.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/content/feature/korea2003/korpilgrim03/images/koreandrum.jpg
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/content/feature/korea2003/korpilgrim03/kor072503/images/kor072503_04.jpg

[Gubook Janggoon]

I've also been thinking about gunpowder. I know you don't want it in the game, but I'm going to push this anyways.

This is the Shingicheon Hwacha

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/7876/hwacha.jpg

It basically shoots arrows so it's not like cannon balls or anything. The way I see it, it's like a massive Firelance. Just a thought.

[Gubook Janggoon]

more of my spamming

http://www.ohmynews.com/down/images/1/bluekb_161058_4%5B217109%5D.jpg
http://www.ohmynews.com/down/images/1/bluekb_161058_4%5B217106%5D.jpg
http://img.hani.co.kr/section-kisa/2004/09/09/021015000120040909526_58.jpg

[Gubook Janggoon]

Here's a video on Gayan arms and armors. You'll have to forgive the long loading time and the horrible English. The video is well worth it though.
http://211.252.141.15/wmv/luxury/MS20040403_e.wmv

Here's another one about Cast armor and Lamellar
http://211.252.141.15/wmv/relic/MS20040324_e.wmv

Gayan Swords
http://211.252.141.15/wmv/relic/MS20040315_e.wmv

Saw knives
http://211.252.141.15/wmv/relic/MS20040317_e.wmv

Gayan Armor
http://nongae.gsnu.ac.kr/~gyomu/kookje_eng/Facilities/sub2/img3.gif


Here's a random video about flag poles..just reminded me of banners
http://211.252.141.15/wmv/relic/MS20040318_e.wmv

[hoggy]

(moved) Ramareddy wrote:

Before responding please take a look at the army lists:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=41921


Is it just me, or does each faction seem very well balanced?

Not between factions, mind you, but each army list in and of itself. It seems like they all have great infantry and cavalry, with very few perceivable weaknesses.

Do you guys think that maybe these lists should be changed in favor of lobsiding factions toward a particular tactical power?

Perhaps China can be the middle of the road civilization, with decent infantry and cavalry, but nothing exceptional. Japan can have great attack infantry, while the Indians will use good missile troops and elephants and pathetic cavalry, so on and so on.

I'll use a 1-5 scale for each component of a faction, the goal being to make each factions average a "3". When taking each into consideration, think about the variety of units given, and the power of those units.


Example:

Krishnapur-
Melee Infantry: Average 3
Missile Infantry: Good 4
Melee Cavalry (Elephants and Chariots included, however horsemen should be poor): Good 4
Missile Cavalry: Very Poor 1
Average: 3

Khanate-
Melee Infantry: Very Poor 1
Missile Infantry: Good 4
Melee Cavalry: Good 4
Missile Cavalry: Very Good 5
Average: 3.5

Japan-
Melee Infantry: Very Good 5
Missile Infantry: Average 3
Melee Cavalry: Average 3
Missile Cavalry: Average 3
Average: 3.5

These are no representative of how the factions are now, but merely examples of what strengths a faction "should" have and the basic grading system itself. Applying this system to the current factions will give us very different results, I suggest you guys try it.

Keep in mind you're trying to make each faction have an average of three.

Good Luck.

[hoggy]

(moved) Dragoon wrote in reply:
i won't put it that extreme, but i completely agree with you that they factions need to have more 'personality' and individualism. However hoggy hasn't shared the stats for the units so it's very possible that though all the units look cool there stats play very differently.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

there are always gonna be weaknesses in armies however cool they are.... if you pit two spartan hoplites vs only 1 then the two generally win for example......

i am more worried that the demon army will be too strong for the other armies to push back: the demons should get countless demons and the men are limited also the demons look so kick ass! lol

hoggy when are you doing the unit stat?? now, or when the models are fully completed

GMM

[blindfaithnogod]

well, basically i implement the models into actually units with the appropriate stats and what not. when hoggy finishes them and sends them to me.(obviously he is quite capable of doing this himself. but i think we can all agree, the more time he spends with these great models, the better.) and so the units which are finished have some sort of preliminary stats. when all units are finished we can wory about if such and such cavalry is way to strong and such and such infantry cant last 2 seconds. that said i try to keep all things in perspective and look at how i rated the attack of samurai as apossed to the shoalin monks.
wow that ended up being alittle longer than i had anticipated

[hoggy]

Yep, we can fine tune when we start testing but Blindfaith's initial stats work really well.

Cheers for all the input on Korean (Choson) units. I've done the concept art for this mini faction and adjusted the armylist slightly in light of your input (see page one of this thread). Hope you like them. There are no gunpowder or rocket units as yet but I may add some later.

[Kageka]

Oh man those concept pics are wonderful (as usual!)... You are a top modeller but your concept art are incredible too. It is so alive, full of motion and it captures the spirit of every culture the warrior/unit comes from.

I can easily say that I am going to play as the Choson when the mod is finished. I hope that you (as you hinted) will add some gunpowder-based units. It will buff the Choson and turn it in to semi-mini faction/semi-standard faction and that would be cool.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Massive Shockage!

They're beautiful!

Haha. I'm overjoyed.

I can only hope that you may add more units to the Choson faction if you ever find the time.

Very nice!

[Gubook Janggoon]

Just had an idea here.

Perhaps you could add the Shaolin monks to the Korean faction too. (Yes, I am greedy).

That would require no additional modding or skinning, and it has a historical backround too. Monks actively participated in the Imjin Waeran, and the Goryeo dyansty had a corps of monks in it's army called the "Subdue Demon Corps"

Just a thought.

Once again the Choson faction looks beautiful!

Great jobb Hoggy!

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hm..I was looking through the concept art for the Koreans and I noticed a few things.

Just a few minor things, they look great though.


For the Goguryeo Heavy Cavalry, I noticed you gave the Horse "Pants". Sorry for being a stickler, but I havn't seen wall murals depicting that kind of armor. I think it would be more akin to this (Sorry for butchering your masterpieces on paint):

http://img234.echo.cx/img234/4084/goguryeo6mq.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

I also found it kind of wierd that the Hwarang's hat is facing forward..that's minor though.

Also, what's up with the spearman's hair? It's very, bulgy. Is that a hat?

If it's hair, he would have worn a long piece of cloth as a head band to keep it in place.

Otherwise, Beautiful. :D

Cheers

-GJ

[hoggy]

fair points gubook. the spearmen are wearing hats.

ps. I've updated the rebel army with concepts on page one of this thread (post 7).

[HunkinElvis]

Neutral Armies (ie remaining factions):
Infantry
Boar Spears
Eagle archers
Bear Warriors

Cavalry
Lion Cavalry

Leaders
Officers

http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/Neutral.jpg
She could be one of the Neutral Army:

http://www.melissadodd.com/graphics/zhurong8.jpg

http://www.melissadodd.com/graphics/zhurong9.jpg

[Moros]

whats the neutral army, slave/rebels?

[HunkinElvis]

I think a neutral army is from a neutral or rebel faction.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

hoggy these new concepts are bloody amazing!!!! if you can bring these to 'life' then i'll eat my hat.... literally ~:cheers:

[The Panda Centurion]

Shouldn't the Indians have "Krishnapur Bowmen", or something? From what i can see, they only have one bow unit and that's the Golden Archers, which are elite units, correct? Just clarifying.

[Kageka]

You mean some kind of standard archer unit?

The question is if they really need it due all the other missile units the possess. I mean they have: Chakra Throwers, (Golden Archers), Scouts, Arjuna Chariots, Elephant Archers, Royal Elephants.
These may be elite and/or specialized units, but in combination with other units they become the backbone for ranged combat.

Also Hoggy & crew have talked about how to profile the different factions to make everyone of them unique to play with. A part of the Krishnapur's army profile may be that they doesn't have any cheap standard archer/missile unit.

I don't know, just my guess.

[The Panda Centurion]

Your guess is as good as mine. :dizzy2:

[Kageka]

Hoggy

Why is there no concept art for the Karazai Khanate (Mongol faction)? Models and skins has already been done by PixelGenie, there must be some concept art??? *I know I am a concept art junky*

[Moros]

the concept art is made only for hoggy's models not pixelgenie.

[The Panda Centurion]

The art will be used in the unit info cards, and in order for their to be a uniform style, hoggy must make them. Either way, let the hoggster take his time, he's done enough for us to deserve a little break. :bow:

[hoggy]

I'll be doing them when the units are finished for the unit info cards.

[hoggy]

moved:
Kull wrote:
The concept and artwork for this mod are simply outstanding. So in keeping with the fantasy theme, have you considered how to portray rebel factions? EB has a nice concept for creating specialized rebels (by region), and that would fit nicely here. Three possibilities come to mind:

1) Monkey Gods (SE Asia portion of the map) - A feature in Hindu art, but also prevalent throughout the SE Asia region (Angkor Wat & Bali have some great temple art based largely on this theme). Cavalry could include "Tiger Riders" and units could feature some of the other jungle fauna from this area. A unit with Arcani-type "hide anywhere" capability would be deadly in the jungle.

2) Himalayan (For the high mountains north of India, West of China 1 and south of the Demons). One obvious unit would be the Yeti, but Snow Leopards and rugged Gurka-type hillmen could also play a role.

3) Desert Tribes (For the border regions between the Mongols/India and the Demons). A Bactrian Camel unit would be cool, plus some excellent horse archers.

I can't post images, but here's where they'd appear on your map (#1 = Green Circle, #2 = Red Circles, # 3 = Yellow Circles):

http://cullivan.com/images/BLmap4.jpg

Edit: Kageka has a wonderful post in the main Blue Lotus Thread which goes into GREAT detail on the Monkey Gods (Hanuman). So most of the research on this group is already done.

[hoggy]

some top ideas there, There is already a list of rebels and mercenaries which we will be using to populate rebel armies.

[Chilly5]

should u have enough faction space to make a SE asia faction? call them the "water people" or "sea people" (but thats in the western mediterrainian) or make a thailand faction. they can be expert naval or something, related to fish, yeah .. . .. a water faction, this is a fantasy mod, why not make a mermaid water faction in SE asia? :charge:

[Kageka]

Chilly5

A mermaid faction? Eh... Can you find some asians myths or folklore that would fit the mod. Well there are fish like demons and such, but an entire faction of fishdeamons? Or do you just mean that that there should be some kind of elite naval faction?

If you look at the Army list-forum under the Rebels/Mercenaries armylist you will find a few water/naval related units...

- Kojin Infantry (shark head)
- Pirates
- Fish men
- Giant Turtle Riders

[Chilly5]

i dunno, more like a water-demon faction, with land memaids (WTF?!) and like . . . hmmmm-quick brainstorm:
harpoon-men
harpoon-throwers-prehaps the harpoon units can act as one, the men can throw harpoons or get close up and use it as a spear . . .
watever u said about pirates
fish fighters (guys with fin-like scimitars that have fish heads)
mer-warriors (mermen with tridents)
watever u said about the shark warriors
watever u said about sea turtle riders
mer-cavalry (mounted on giant seahorses)
mer-DURING-maids (lol, i made a pun, mermaids, only they murder, like head hunting maidens, a female unit, has a trident?)
octopus-men (uber guys with a mans legs and lower body, and a octopus on top. carries 8 cleavers?)
giant lobster warriors (lobsters with some man-like features, like walking on two feet, sortof like the octo-men)
giant crab riders?
maybe not lobster men, giant lobster riders?
general's body guard-
consists of a few very elite looking mermen and a general that looks like a sea god, y'know the huge beard, the crown, the blue stuff-like posidon or neptune . . . .
prehaps u can have sea dragon riders?
water cannons?
sword fish throwers? ~D

i dont know, this is ur mod, those were just a few suggestions off the top of my head, its ur mod (wait, are u in the mod team? or am i talking to a pedestrian?) u decide weather or not a sea faction is in order and the units. . . i'm just giving my 2 cents . . .. ~:handball:

[Chilly5]

oh yes, a giant crab/lobster/seal or something unit would be great as a elephant-type unit! oh!oh! GIANT WAR WHALES! eh? eh?! a suber big whale unit, if possible, a flying whale unit! can come down and body slam and kill everyone! MUHUHAHAHA!
. . .
sorry, my imagination got the better of be, would a whale rider unit be possible? or sea chariots that have water horses? (though thats kinda european)
. . .
prehaps i should do a little research on aquatic asian mythology, but its ur mod . . . . doing this would make me a resercher . .. or a donater? *is lost*

~:cheers:

[Abokasee]

oh yes, a giant crab/lobster/seal or something unit would be great as a elephant-type unit! oh!oh! GIANT WAR WHALES! eh? eh?! a suber big whale unit, if possible, a flying whale unit! can come down and body slam and kill everyone! MUHUHAHAHA!
. . .
sorry, my imagination got the better of be, would a whale rider unit be possible? or sea chariots that have water horses? (though thats kinda european)
. . .
prehaps i should do a little research on aquatic asian mythology, but its ur mod . . . . doing this would make me a resercher . .. or a donater? *is lost*

~:cheers:

Post that in the "count down to open beta bartix"
LOL ~D

[Gubook Janggoon]

Sea kingdom?

Only thing I can think of is the Dragon King who ruled the seas.

[Chilly5]

yah, so wats wrong with the the sea kings, hm . . . in xi-you-ji the sea was divided into 4 kingdoms, north/east/south/west, i think one of them was the "head" if u havent resloved ur roman-senate overhaul, prehaps this would be a good alternative? but then, that would focus on the sea kingdom too much, this is supposed to focus on japan right? prehaps there should be a sea kingdom, and if u still have faction space- a "heaven" kingdom? prehaps control the middle or northmost part of the map? they would be like the opposite or demons, hell has gone loose and heaven is trying to contain it, they might be a the northmost of the map and have many wars with the demons, military consists of a combination of all the heaven mythologies of all the human faction portryed in this mod. but this is ur mod, wat do u think? (wait, whos mod? hoggy? u reading this? *is lost*)

[Gubook Janggoon]

As of now I think hoggy is tryin to concentrate on finishing up what we have slated for now (Which is monumental as it is).

When the project is finished up though, Hoggy has infered that he will think about adding to it.

Quite personally, rather than seeing more fantastic factions, i would rather see the beefing up of the Mongols and the Koreans.

[Chilly5]

cant u do both?

[The Panda Centurion]

I have to say that i find the idea of a "water" faction, in other words, a faction of fish-men, very unattractive. If there are fish-men, then they will most likely be a part of the demon army or mercenaries, which is much more believable than having an Atlantis spring up in Thailand and spurt out nonsensical armies. The idea harks back too much to games like the Legend of Zelda (certainly a great game, but not one that hoggy is trying to emulate, i think). The idea is too elemental and uninteresting for the setting hoggy is trying to create in Blue Lotus. Like Gubook, i would like to see more work on the human factions, particularly the Mongols and Koreans. I am not demanding that hoggy do this, however, i am only voicing my desires. Keep up the wonderful work hoggy. :bow:

- Panda

[Captain-Tiguris]

Perhaps for rebels, more tribesman. This may give the fact that they have left the towns/settlements/cities and took arms. Crude weapons, crude armour and a dirty look.

Or even a new tribe for a faction?
I would be happy to help there

[Chilly5]

well, it is called 'blue lotus' blue being the elemental color of water and lotus being a water living plant, it symbolizes something aquatic, i guess thats the only comeback i can make, personally, a asian oceanic faction in thailand gives me thrills, or a heaven army . . . but alas my dreams, nothing more.

as for the person who last posted above me: are u suggesting a barbarian faction? more like a neadrethal faction, dirty people with forks lol, but i think i'm getting mixed up.

[DragoonXXIV]

Read the army lists. There already are plans for 'fish-men' and 'shark-men' like things to be mercanaries and rebels, not to mention pirates.

[Chilly5]

i know, thats been stated in this small disscussion. :bow:

[Chilly5]

my point is that i'm fairly certain that this mod has a few more faciton slots, and it would almost be criminal to not use ur limits to the fullest extent (add factions), but it's still a great mod.

[Kageka]

Chilly5

Well there has been plans to include a Tibetan faction and a Thai faction. Even a Hanuman (or Vanara, Sun Wukong, monkey god) faction, which I have suggested (can read about it on the first page of this Army List forum), has been discussed.

But if I remember it right Hoggy said that there is no time for new factions, maybe mini-factions like Monks, Choson, Kharazai Khanate, Rebels. If there will be another faction then my guess is that it will be the Tibetan one.

But if you want a clear answer then you have to get it from some one from the Blue Lotus team. Or try to PM Hoggy.

[hoggy]

Kegeka is right. It's about available time really. It would be great to have lots of new factions, tibetans, thai, fishpeople, I would also have liked to have had factions from russia and turkey etc but as it stands there is already a huge amount of work to do. I think the mod will work well with the factions it has and perhaps if we're up for it after the main release we can add more. If that is the case we'll check the armylist thread so your suggestions will definitely be considered.

[Sahran]

I Saw some posts on different factions, and the only solid listing of those seems to be the map, but even that has conflicted with other information. Where are the decided factions for the first release listed?

Is it:

Demons
Mongols
Japan A
Japan B
Korea
China A
China B
Monks
India?

Or are the demons to be divided, because I swore there was talk about the Roman Families and Senate being Demons due to difficulties if you take it out. Sorry for the confusion, just don't wanna hope for a faction that doesnt come out. :D

In due time, would this mod hopefully continue and Hoggy continue to express interest in it, perhaps it will attract more people to assist in working on the mod, and thus allow for new factions to make way. I assume the Neutral Animalistic faction will not be featured, as they weren't on the map. That's a pity, but maybe they can work as Mercenaries, or a future faction.

It may be an abhorred idea, but worth shooting out. With the Ocean taking up so much empty space, perhaps a future version of Blue Lotus may cut back on the Sea Some, introuding some of the Middle East? I just read upon Chinese relations with Bactria and Pathia, and while it might not be suitable to see those faction's merely reproduced, the mythology of ancient persia is still very eastern and less like Greeco-Roman or Celtic myths. Persia would offer something to take away the luxury of relaxation as India, and could place itself as that kind of looming threat on the horizon, as Egypt, Seleucia, or Parthia would become in Vanilla and RTR when you yourself were a western nation with your nose buried in conflict and politics there?

Definately not something to be added in right now, but would it be an interesting touch? India helps to offer an exotic appeal to the theme of Blue Lotus (Much as the East and Egypt did for Vanilla), and Persia could assist in that, as well open up a wealth of new mythology.

[hoggy]

That list is correct but the rebels fill areas where there are no factions. The monks are the senate and as isolated as we can make them to avoid any problems.

[Chilly5]

so hoggy, wat ur saying is that after the mod is done, there can be a expansion mod, that adds new factions? i guess i can live with that . . . ~:cool:

[Sykotyk Rampage]

hi - this is just me pondering- throwing it out there.

Why go west for inspiration or new factions. Go east young man follow the ice packs, the whales migrate that a-way. Head due South 3 or 4 thousand miles and then another 2 or 3, lots of factions along the coast. Polynesians traded with South America, Vikings in Newfoundland, Resemblance of Egyptian gods in Mexico. Strange dragons and birds on the Galapagos. Hawaii surf the volcanos.

Would it not be cool Aztecs, Maya, Inca, Anasazi, Chavin, Olmec etc....(yes they did not all exist at the same time period but this is fantasy.) Huge wars and battles whole civilizations wiped out before the European even stepped foot and wiped out the wiper-outers.....LOL.

"The Aztecs had no professional army but they had professional military officers. When a boy was born his umbilical cord was cut off and dried and then buried on a battle field signifying that his life would be dedicated to warfare. Every able bodied boy was trained to fight.
A vital part of everyday life for the Aztecs was warfare. All able body men were trained to be warriors. In readiness for adult life boys learned about fighting and weapons at school. To fight in battle was considered a duty and an honor. Warriors helped teach in the calmecacs. The warriors took the students to the wars and taught him how to take a prisoner captive. A boy became a man after he captured his first prisoner." thinkquest

If that's not a civilization bred for war I don't know what is.....(besides us right now)

The Western edge of North America filling in the large expanse of the Pacific on the BL map. Europe/Euro-asia is so overrated/overdone time to move on.

There you go run with it!

[Chilly5]

1. too much water and the map would be waay too big
2. this is starting to become too much of a faction discussion
3. at tw center i have founded a mod called native america totalwar it will include aztecs, incans, iroquios, creek, toltec, inuit etc etc. if ur interested join and help out. ~:cheers:

[Sahran]

1. too much water and the map would be waay too big
2. this is starting to become too much of a faction discussion
3. at tw center i have founded a mod called native america totalwar it will include aztecs, incans, iroquios, creek, toltec, inuit etc etc. if ur interested join and help out. ~:cheers:


Agreed on the first point, is there the consideration of removing much of that lifeless ocean and adding more to the north and west of the map? Enough of the Himalayals spread out and the Monk faction could reside there (an advantage in having few entraces due to the mountains, yet poor trade), and toss them back into the mix.

I guess not, since you've put so much work and dedication into the current one. :)

[DragoonXXIV]

Well let's stick to what's already been agreed upon by may previous debates until that's done, then we can thinking about adding new stuff. On that note, yes the ocean is relatively empty, however unlike R:TW (Europe) the ocean is NOT a vital means of rapid deployment, in fact since the campaign map is soo small it would in most cases be a waste to build ships instead of ground units... maybe for a sneak attack but even then...

Personally i think once Hoggy & Co. have finished everything that they've planned it would be cool to make the ocean less barren, add some islands and maybe good trade items or huge mythological cities (i.e. city of the gods (w/ super special unique rebel units), the city of gold, Shang-ri La, etc.) also what would really be cool would be a large island in the ocean (similair to monks in size), however it is populated by fanatical templars with Medieval European styles. This would seriously complicate the starting game.

[Kageka]

No europeans please... I am so tired of allways having knights and stuff in fantasy/mythological games. Let this mod be "purely" asian. Europeans would cheapen the mod (at least I think so). There are so many fantastic asian cultures that could inhabit those island than boring europeans (note: I am a european my self). I mean the majority of the mods that are made to RTW are placed in Europe.

Please...:sad3:

[Moros]

you could always add an Indonisian faction but I think it's better to complete everything that was planned and perhaps when it's done they could make a new version or an "add-on".

[Chilly5]

ditto, but a indonesia never really had a empire, but they were mainly water people-y'know fishermen and canoe riders, so thats why i thought, this being a fantasy mod, that a water mermaidic faction would be apropreiate for a indo-thailand faction. but i can only hope that hoggy will consider my wishes for a add-on mod . .

[Captain-Tiguris]

How about another fictional race? If the demons are evilish and powerful, why not have some sort of good race that has been sent to hunt them down? Like Demon-Hunters or somet?

I would like to help out if you include this lol!

[Gubook Janggoon]

ditto, but a indonesia never really had a empire, but they were mainly water people-y'know fishermen and canoe riders, so thats why i thought, this being a fantasy mod, that a water mermaidic faction would be apropreiate for a indo-thailand faction. but i can only hope that hoggy will consider my wishes for a add-on mod . .

I was under the impression that there were some pretty powerful sultanates down there.

[Chilly5]

from all i read in history books, all i got was fishers and hunter gatherers, but i'm shallow on everything else. and Captain-Tiguris-
u seem to think up of everything i think up of, doesnt anyone actually READ my posts? i suggested a anti-demon faction too. only they werent demon hunters, i suggested holy-wait, after cheacking the forum, this is the first time u have had a idea that conflicted with my idea, so its actually pointed at a lot of people . . . but anyway, i still suggested a holy faction, next to the demon faction (holy- the heaven faction, demons escaped from hell, so the gods are gona put them back into place) so they can wage a large war. by holy, i dont mean christianity, i mean asian mythic gods and divine beings, like jade emporer and etc. i would love to help on any of my ideas, but my skinnings skills are not worthy and i am afraid that i will be in too many projects at once.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I think the monks represent the "HOLY" faction.

[Chilly5]

ah . . . . but they arnt the "heaven" faction now are they? or at least they arnt close enough to the demons to strike a large scale war.

[The Panda Centurion]

The whole point of the mod is that the warring human factions (just human, no monsters or dragons or whatnot) must settle their differences (possibly) and unite against the demon forces to push them out of the world. Blue Lotus is not about two magical factions (black and white, good and evil) fighting each other. Why do you think that hoggy took the trouble to make the human factions, if they were just going to be in the background while the demons and "angels", so to speak, duke it out?

- Panda

[Chilly5]

oh, sorry didnt know that . . . . so its humans vs demons . . . . ok, well, then should there be more than one demon faction? ~:confused:

[The Panda Centurion]

That's an idea I was thinking about as well, but i think that hoggy has his mind set about what the factions will be. I'm happy with the final setup though. ~:)

[Gubook Janggoon]

I'm happy too.

I think they've decided on one demon faction, but they're going to make it super powerful.

[Kageka]

Hehe me too, I also suggested more than one demon faction some months ago. But I have to say that after i heard Hoggy's (and his brave mens') explanation about the reason of just one (endless, all powerful, cachophonic, eclectic, and nigthmarish) horde of demons I had/have to say that is the right choice.

It really fit the mod just to have one single demon faction. A mighty otherwordly steamroller of terror. Makes it more scarry and threatening that way. Just one big dark void of demons that crawls from the northwest over the hills, steppes and thundra. Spreading in clutches like canser over the land. Slowly conquering the warring humans factions who are too occupied killing each other to protect them self from the demon threat.

[Chilly5]

so then they should be like the hun in BI and completely HORDE all over north west of the map, and then reach the humans right? otherwise, they will simply serve as a overblaencing faction . . . . . likethr romans in vanilla. :duel:

[Gubook Janggoon]

I was looking through the list and something hit me.

Why don't the Mongols and Koreans have Generals? Goodness, The Koreans don't even have officers!

Will they be added?

[hoggy]

The Koreans will have officers and generals but not unique ones. The officers will be the goguryo on foot and generals will be a retexture of the goguryo. If there's time later we may improve on this (as well as adding more Korean units) but for now they are a mini faction without the added extras of the major factions.

[Gubook Janggoon]

The Koreans will have officers and generals but not unique ones. The officers will be the goguryo on foot and generals will be a retexture of the goguryo. If there's time later we may improve on this (as well as adding more Korean units) but for now they are a mini faction without the added extras of the major factions.

Thanks for the clarification. :bow:

[Ferocious_Imbecile]

Hoggy, some questions about your drawings;


When you're drawing your horses, do you draw them from photo models or are they entirely from your imagination?

Also, what do you do for a living? Are you a professional artist? Frankly you're a lot better artist than some ofthe artists I see here in Vancouver that are making $60,000+ a year...

Have you produced any paintings as works of art in themselves? If so, could you post some of them please?

[hoggy]

I normally try to draw them myself but if i get stuck I'll look for a photo for reference, I've never been very good at horses. I'm a games artist so i mostly work in 3D and don't have any paintings or anything like that really. Mostly I just concept what I'm going to build as it gives me some thinking time. Time to plan the model and work out details etc. $60K sounds good but a little out of my league ~:)

[Sykotyk Rampage]

60,000 Canadian dollars are 24,967.76 pounds
your worth more than that Hoggy and a cost of living allowance and a new computer and a snazzy car, nice house, garden, yearly supply of pints, a graumbacher pen and ink set with inlaid pearl handles, a french maid -yes in the black and white uniform, toast and tea at 4, a jaccuzzi with the mandatory martini bar and live band that plays what ever you need at the time, limousine service to the airport where your jet waits to take you to the coast of spain for a holiday that you get every second week and twice on sundays with the swedish swim team and when your over worked and stressed from drawing and sketching and clicking the mouse your shoulders are massaged into a warmth and relaxed state by twins named Cassie and Veronica but I digress................but really you should at least have the free beer

SKR

[Ferocious_Imbecile]

I normally try to draw them myself but if i get stuck I'll look for a photo for reference, I've never been very good at horses. I'm a games artist so i mostly work in 3D and don't have any paintings or anything like that really. Mostly I just concept what I'm going to build as it gives me some thinking time. Time to plan the model and work out details etc. $60K sounds good but a little out of my league ~:)


"I've never been very good at horses." :charge: :charge: :lol:

We all beg to disagree...

CA should hire you to do horses alone, if nothing else..

[DragoonXXIV]

|deleted|

[DragoonXXIV]

...but really you should at least have the free beer

here, here. I'd gladdy buy hoggy a round if i ever meet him.

[Chilly5]

hey . . . .here's another idea, i dont know if this is being made . . . but prehaps you should make terracotta units . . . . like terracotta soldiers for china . . . a thing for them to defend them from the demons (like in real life) or terracotta infantry for demons, cause they look alike. prehaps as rebels in-between china and demons . . . . maybe they even have enough units (terracotta cavalry,infantry,chariots,archers etc) to make a mini-faction themselves! but i think you guys are too busy to make another mini-faction but terracotta units? or are you already planning to make these?

[Sahran]

hey . . . .here's another idea, i dont know if this is being made . . . but prehaps you should make terracotta units . . . . like terracotta soldiers for china . . . a thing for them to defend them from the demons (like in real life) or terracotta infantry for demons, cause they look alike. prehaps as rebels in-between china and demons . . . . maybe they even have enough units (terracotta cavalry,infantry,chariots,archers etc) to make a mini-faction themselves! but i think you guys are too busy to make another mini-faction but terracotta units? or are you already planning to make these?

Terracotta were for defending against Demons, so perhaps they could be the unique unit of China, with incredible moral, unwaivering at the demoralizing sight of the demons..something like the spartans of the greeks in Vanilla? If its possible, also a combat bonus to demons?

[DragoonXXIV]

Hmm.. if i'm not mistaken i've seen a rather definate trend in the army lists, namely the historic factions don't have mythological units. While the rebels and magical factions (monks and demons) do. I think it's best if we stick with that trend, but that's just me. Either way, let Hoggy & Co. finish what's already slated before adding anything new, remember there is still a lot of work to be done.

[Chilly5]

they are still bery far compared to other mods . . . from the looks of it prehaps even a possible beta might be in in less than a month . . . or half of one. . . *hopes*, however, prehaps if not-not able to incorperate terracotta units for china (it would be cool though . . they played a pretty major part in chinese demon-defending mythology. prehaps they could be rebels . .or . . watever.

if so, i think that the terracotta units should have high or low (is terra cotta better than metal? well, they are hollow . . prehaps their defence should be weak . . . .) defence, no moral (they have no fear, just follows their masters orders), bonus vs demons? (i dont think thats possible though . . .), ok attack, and should they be able to run amok? like the sorcerors lose control of them . . . . oh well, as said before (be others) its hoggy and co's choice. ~:handball:

[Sahran]

That's true DragoonXXIV, much of what is suggested might be perfect for the mod, but perfect for Hoggy to consider himself when the mods been released and there is actually time to do it without stressing himself out.

I believed I heard some comment of some mythological units being mercenaries. Don't know. :D

[DragoonXXIV]

For future refernece chilly, terracota is rather brittle. If i'm not mistaken it's a type of clay, so think of how fragile a clay vase/bowl/whatever is. So they should have very low defense, but maybe 2(+) hitpoints as you can chop off an arm but they keep coming. If you were going to implament them i would recommend they serve as banner men, thier presence inspiring others and rallying the wavering (like the roman Aquali/1st Legion in vanilla). Also i believe that some of the mercenaries are definately mythological in nature.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

having terracota units would be great! but maybe only buildable in the chinese capital? or something like that so that you wouldn't get to many of them and have chinese armies made only of terracota units
another idea would be to have a sort of terracota army building like a wonder that would improve troop morale and allow for longer seiges or something....

for korea i think that they shold have some sort of elite spearmen as well as their 'militia' type spearmen to give them more combat infantry cos at the mo they are kinda low on units... but it is up to hoggy

[Chilly5]

DragoonXXIV- oh, ok, i thought so, but i just wasnt sure . . . after all, they are a full body of clay (but hollow) unlike the humans who wear some armour but is then flesh. yeah, the multiple health points sounds proper

GiantMonkeyMan- oh, here's an idea, i think its possible to allow fairness by making a wonder like- THE TERRACOTTA ARMY BURIAL SITE ~:cool: and then, that one wonder allows terracotta units to be built and will be placed at the relative place where the terracotta army was found. and also, korea is a mini faction, so its kinda supposed to be weak . . . .

[Kageka]

Choson (Korea), Monks and Karazai Khanate (Mongol horde) are mini-factions so they doesn't have big army lists yet. But Hoggy has mentioned many times that the mini-factions will probably be buffed up with more units after the mod is released.

Guubok Jangon, my self and a few others have posted much material and stuff about ancient Korean warfare and warriors (especially Guubok Jangoon, he is a living ensyclopedia of Korean history ;) ). So I belive that Hoggy have a lot of visual input to create new fantastic yet historically accurate models and units.

You can find a korean heavy armoured unit-suggestion based on Gaia on the Screenshot-forum at page 17 I think.


I am quite negative when it comes to make the Terracotta army as a unit-choice. I think it would fit better as a moral/stat-booster wonder or/and building type. An unit created in the same region as a Terracotta army will fight better against demons and other strange humanoids and semi-beasts.

And if the Terracotta should be a playable unit, well then I think that it would fit better in the Monk faction since they allready have magical/magic using units like the Masters. The monks could have the knowledge how to create terracotta warriors and and animate/enspirit them with the wisdom/knowledge/holiness of the Enlightened One... or something similar. It would fit their spiritual army-profile. Atleast I think so.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Aw shucks...a living encyclopedia? :D

But yes, you can find some pictures of Gayan plate armor in the screen shots thread. Above them, I have some pictures of Goguryeoan infantry.

I think the monks having terracotta soldiers would be more acceptable too. Kind of like puppet masters.

But I don't think they would be able to do much. They're made of clay. Their armor is made of clay. Their weapons are made of clay. Their horses and chariots are made of clay. They'd just explode on contact witht the other units. ::poof::

[Chilly5]

well, they are demented, empowered with magic . . . so they should be a little stronger . . . and i dont agree with the monk idea, monks are all the way in new zealand(sp?), th terraotta army was in wat? north west china? . . . so i think it should belong to all factions, the terracotta army should be a wonder in a rebel settlement whichever faction can capture the wonder, whichever faction gets terracotta warriors, china and demons are closest so they will probally begin with them, it kinda gives it a historical feeling, evil terracotta or good? ah .. . . i dont know what i'm talking about, i probally dont make sense . .. i just woke up :dizzy2: . . . *goes back to sleep*

[Gubook Janggoon]

I know the whole idea of Gayan infantry is subject to whether or not Hoggy decides to expand the mod after it is completed...but I thought I'd just post some pictures here.

I've mixed in the old pics that I posted in the Screenshots thread with a bunch of new pictures I found. I hope this helps somehow.

Helmets
https://img328.imageshack.us/img328/5206/daegayahelmet5or.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img328.imageshack.us/img328/6913/daegayahelmet23jt.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img334.imageshack.us/img334/8116/gaya73pop5xz.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6310/daegaya1ls.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2466/1112l7cu.th.jpg (https://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1112l7cu.jpg)

Neck Guards
https://img323.imageshack.us/img323/2199/gaya74pop4bj.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img323.imageshack.us/img323/5370/gaya75pop3en.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Body Plates
https://img321.imageshack.us/img321/3870/gaya76pop6oo.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img321.imageshack.us/img321/8494/kkaya05001tx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/2425/iron5sl.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2594/kaya5rv.th.jpg (https://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kaya5rv.jpg)
https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3046/armor2wc.th.jpg (https://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armor2wc.jpg)
https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6485/gaya99vw.th.jpg (https://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gaya99vw.jpg)
https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1899/img38fr.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1224/7367tre313nh.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

Shield
https://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2166/015020qb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Arm Plates
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/916/gaya77pop2ci.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Horse Related Stuff
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/5804/daegayacalvalry8wx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/6156/gaya5ym.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img331.imageshack.us/img331/6247/gaya6227pq.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img331.imageshack.us/img331/5964/gaya6142cc.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img331.imageshack.us/img331/8316/gaya6132zc.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://img331.imageshack.us/img331/6899/gimg17ek.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Gubook Janggoon]

I'm assuming that the Chinese Ox chariot thing is no more.

Well, digging through history, I came across a cool substitute!

The wooden ox! Historians think that it was just a tricked out wheelbarrow, but taking some historical and fantasy license here, we could make it like litererally a giant walking ox with archers on top. Wouldn't the elephant skeleton work for that?

More on the ox.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=781&hl=wooden+ox

[hoggy]

haha, ace! I'll stick it on the wish list for future possible development.

[runes]

WHAT? no more ox-chariots?? why? those things were awesome...

[Sahran]

I'm assuming that the Chinese Ox chariot thing is no more.

Well, digging through history, I came across a cool substitute!

The wooden ox! Historians think that it was just a tricked out wheelbarrow, but taking some historical and fantasy license here, we could make it like litererally a giant walking ox with archers on top. Wouldn't the elephant skeleton work for that?

More on the ox.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=781&hl=wooden+ox


Dude. This mod is -BUILT- on historical and fantasy licenses. :D

That would be an impressive addition, and something to grant elephants to more than just the indian faction too, which might help balancing issues. Could work for a future release!

[hoggy]

I've updated post #7 of this thread with some concepts of some of the mercenary/rebel units.

[AlokaParyetra]

I've updated post #7 of this thread with some concepts of some of the mercenary/rebel units.
I would be careful of using Hanuman as a unit though. He is a diety for many people, and he is one person. Having several "hanumans" wouldn't really work.

Instead, you could name the unit after Hanuman's race, the Vanara. While Hanuman is one person, other's like him (i.e. monkey/humans in Hindu mythology) are called Vanara.

Just a suggestion.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I think that would be wise.

We wouldn't want to offend anyone.

I'm anxiously waiting for the Turtle Riders. : D

[hoggy]

I would be careful of using Hanuman as a unit though. He is a diety for many people, and he is one person. Having several "hanumans" wouldn't really work.

Instead, you could name the unit after Hanuman's race, the Vanara. While Hanuman is one person, other's like him (i.e. monkey/humans in Hindu mythology) are called Vanara.

Just a suggestion.

True, I'll change them to Vanara. :bow:

[Moros]

are those hanuman/vanara slingerers? or what weapon do they use?

[SJRlunchbox]

I understand this would be alot of work (and thus apologise pre-emptively), but could the first page of posts, with the basic army lists on them, be updated? Perhaps with a brief description of the unit and how it functions on the battlefield (poor hand to hand fighters useful in numbers, skilled archers but lightly armoured, etc etc)?

It would make things alot easier for people looking through the races. Especially now when things seem to be going so fast, and some people (such as myself) are eager to look through the races to hazard a guess what would be the most enjoyable for our play style.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Just in case you decide to add the rocket launchers (Shingijeon Hwacha) for the Koreans, I found a video of one of these babies at work.

http://www.arrow.or.kr/chi/../htm/data/wmv/singijun.wmv

[hoggy]

I've updated the Korean/Choson faction armylist in post #6 of this thread with new concept art too. Has anyone got any better names for these Korean units? Something drawn from history or mythology of Korea?

[Morray]

Well I have been fishing around the net, I have found some pretty decent names of famous people, mythology and real life.

Shin (spirit, god, divine, supernatural)

Korean Genre Shinhwa, Cheonseol, Mindam

Shinhwa are the gods who live in the heavens and more or less rule over the earth.

(Don't know anything about the other two sorry ~:confused: ...anyone?)

Taoists, the Followers of the Way, known as tosa and shinseon. Tosa ("practitioner of the Way") are humans noted for superhuman skills obtained through study of the Way. Some have, for example, the ability to run long distances in a short period of time.

Shinseon ("divine hermits"), on the other hand, live to extremely old age through ascetic mountain living and practicing of the Way.

Here are some famous mythological names that you could use also;


• Hanle-nim -The Heavenly Emperor, Ruler of Heaven and Earth.
• OwgHoangSangJoe - Jade Yellow Emperor
• Dal(soon)-nim -The moon, sister of the sun.
• Hae(sik)-nim -The sun brother of the moon.
• Chonha Dae Changgun -Village Guardian & General under Heaven husband of-
• Chiha Yo Changgun -Village Guardian & General of the Underworld.
• Sanshilyong/Sanshin -The God of The Mountains
• Yongwang -The Dragon King of the seas
• Mago, the most famous one of the giants, who became the island of Cheju
• Hwanin -The Heavenly initiator a title of 7 rulers on earth.
• Hwanung -The son of Heaven & dynasty of rulers in Greater Mongolia.
• Ungnyo -The Bear who became a woman & mother of Tangun.
• Tangun son of Hwanung -The first Korean Emperor the first Korean dynasty.
• Sonyo -Daughters of Heaven
• Kyonu & Jingyo who weep the summer rainy season
• JowsSyngSaJa - Angels of Death
• Chi Woo - The Korean pendant to Chi You .

Also I found out that I think you may be spelling Choson wrong (I think it's Choseon), im not sure if that was what you were going for but I belive this is the correct spelling, it doesnt bother me in the slightest, I think your a genious, but there may be some very keen-eyed Korean people out there! (you never know)

...hope this may help!

[Gubook Janggoon]

The new spelling's actually Joseon.

The two new yellow units you made are actually Goryeo style infantry, so it would probably be better to call them Goryeo "Whatever". I don't know any appropriate names for them though. :T

[Shaka_Khan]

.................................................................................................... .....................................

Good job, Morray. Thanks for finding those. ~:thumb:

.................................................................................................... .....................................


Here is a website that show videos of a Korean cavalry:


Various Cavalry Movements (http://www.chunghondang.com/eques_mar.htm)
Demonstrations (http://www.chunghondang.com/eques_mar_1.htm)

http://www.chunghondang.com/images/gisaani.gif http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_1.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_2.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_5.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_4.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_3.jpg

[Kageka]

About the Korean faction
I think it is/was a good idea to spell the korean-faction 'wrong', Choson.

Why? First: the faction (like all/most of the ones in BL) got units from different epochs/kingdoms, not from one specific. Second: naming and spelling the faction after an actual place in our worlds history would sabotage the felling of BL's mythological and fantasy-like feel and flavor. It's like naming an island in a LOTR-game Britannia or Gothia.

By spelling it Choson and not Joseon/Choseon we all know that the faction is based on korean historical armies. But still it is a integrated part of the world of Blue Lotus instead of being a rebirth of ancient Korea.

[Kageka]

More mongolian units to come?
I know that the Kharazai Khanate (mongolian faction) is a mini-faction, but I wonder if there are any plans to add troops like you did with Choson (korean faction)?

It feels like the mongolian faction should be more than it is for the moment. I mean it is khanate mongols! One of the strongest/biggest armies and empires ever. They should get something extra. That's my opinion.

I know that people have asked before if Thunder Bombers (STW) will be included. The answer was no. Is it still a no or have you guys talked about maybe add thunderbombers to the mongolian faction? There are already units in RTW that have sling weapon-animations; you could use those and use a (slightly altered) khanate infantry-unit for model? It would be a really cool yet volatile and dangerous skirmish unit to add when one arrange his khanate army. They can deal enormous damage to the enemy if lucky, but be devasting for the own troops if youre unlucky. Russian roulette! :juggle2:

Also it would fit if there where some extra cavalry unit-choice (Keshiks?) for the Khanate.

Just some suggestions.

[hoggy]

Sounds do-able. Does anyone else have any suggestions for new Mongol units that would bolster their army list?

[Kageka]

Hehe, I have a few more suggestions for the mongol unit list. :embarassed:

1. Trebuchet- It would be cool if the mongols/kharazai khanate used counterweight trebuchets (that launches bombs/large thunderbombs) as their artillery choice instead of the onager.

2. Keshiks- Veteran elite cavalry. The best of the best horseman warriors. Fastest cavalry unit in the game with outstanding bowman skills and yet being good in melee situations. Medium armor and superior morale. They should be few in numbers (maybe 10 to 20 riders per unit). They could maybe function as the generals bodyguard as well?

3. Wolf handlers- Ok this is slightly pushing the limits because as far as I know there where no wolf handlers/war wolves used by the mongols. But the wolf where a important part of the mongolian mythology. I have even read somewhere that the mongolians believe that they descend from the wolves. I mean this is a mythologic mod, so why not ad a similar unit to the RTW Warhounds for the Mongolians. But instead of bloodhounds they send howling wild wolves to deal with the enemy.

[DragoonXXIV]

If you want more mythological style units then:

Wolf Guard: Infantry troops, not too good in offense or defense but lots of hitpoints and near fanatical. Covered in wolf pelts these guys hold the line while the Khanate cavalry sweeps in the sides or envelop. The idea is: 'too stubborn to quit, too stupid to die'.

Khan(ate) Guard: Sworn to defend the Khan and his empire, these heavy cavalry are shock troops. Always the first on the field, this unit will shatter weaker formations and make throw confusion in the enemy ranks, making it easier for the other Khanate troops to choose thier targets. However these guys should be hard to handle, they might charge any enemy on sight.

Demon Hunters: In these uncertain times, the Khanate has had to resort to more drastitc measures to deal with the growing reports of undead armies and demons to the North. The result was fight magic with magic, only the greatest warriors in the clans could endure the rituals and trials necessary to become a demon hunter. These tattooed riders are the fastest shock troops in the world, if only the Khanate had more of them. (The idea is sort of a hero unit for the mongols)

Obviously these suggestions are not firmly rooted in history, however the first two aren't that far off, and the last is just to add some flavor since the mongols have an encroaching horde from the north.

[Morray]

I believe you should not overlook the oppertunity to include a female unit within the Mongolians.
It was common place for Women (of high caste) to run the Khans on several occasions during one eara a Female ran the nation for two years!
(Thats quite impressive if you ask me!)

So as to splinter away from screeching women ala. Germans maybe you can include Women that inspire the men to great actions I.E. bolster morale!

They could be in like a cool Palanquin mouted on horses or something!

[Asean]

How about a Southeast Asian faction to replace the empty southeast asia region... I would suggest Khmer faction...

[alahir]

how about arbelests for the china factions

the were basicaly giant crossbowsthat shot about 10 arrows in one volley

they were from the threekingdoms time

i think they would look like a balista but wider

[alahir]

Also why not make a demon unit that can go beserk like beserkers in rtw : bi

they would be cool but would have to take about 3 turns to trai cos they would rule

[Moros]

Mangudai:
Mangudai were the best warriors that date back to the late 13th century. They were explained to be as viscous wolves with blood drenched fangs that attacked a much larger animal (empire). They always won. Never knew defeat or what it felt like to lose a battle. They fear no enemy. They are also known as suicide warriors. Suicide operations within this tradition are found sporadically across different cultures.

These troops were used as bait to charge the enemy and then retreat, hoping the enemy would break ranks and pursue them into a well-coordinated trap.

[ramareddy]

The Chinese fast-firing crossbows are called "Chu ko nu". They could fire two bolts every second, and as you can see had a clip of 10-20 bolts attached to the top. In any case, if it hasn't been added to the Chinese faction's roster, it probably should be, though I do respect the fact that Hoggy might already have his hands full.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Ko_Nu

[Morray]

You need not worry ramareddy as the "Chu ko nu" Were in the Army list while Hoggy was creating them, so fingers crossed they have been created! I can't recall seeing them on the forum but they may well be in here somewhere! :book:

[Taurus]

3. Wolf handlers- Ok this is slightly pushing the limits because as far as I know there where no wolf handlers/war wolves used by the mongols. But the wolf where a important part of the mongolian mythology. I have even read somewhere that the mongolians believe that they descend from the wolves. I mean this is a mythologic mod, so why not ad a similar unit to the RTW Warhounds for the Mongolians. But instead of bloodhounds they send howling wild wolves to deal with the enemy.


Wolf Guard: Infantry troops, not too good in offense or defense but lots of hitpoints and near fanatical. Covered in wolf pelts these guys hold the line while the Khanate cavalry sweeps in the sides or envelop. The idea is: 'too stubborn to quit, too stupid to die'.

Man I'd love to see these units, they would be awesome. :2thumbsup:

[Woozie]

The Mongolians are my absolute favorite faction but they need some more units. Dragoon & Kageka's ideas are really good. They _at least_ need some Swordsmen, they don't have anything to hold the line other than Spearmen which get murdered by infantry. I hope to see some new Mongol units next version, thx :)

[The_White_Knight]

The Chinese fast-firing crossbows are called "Chu ko nu". They could fire two bolts every second, and as you can see had a clip of 10-20 bolts attached to the top. In any case, if it hasn't been added to the Chinese faction's roster, it probably should be, though I do respect the fact that Hoggy might already have his hands full.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Ko_Nu
Don't the chinese alreade have some kind of repeating crossbow-unit in the current build?

[Woozie]

Yes, yes they do and it is the Chu ko nu.

[Moros]

but they don't fire two bolts every second.

[hairyscotsman]

I think spear throwers need added to counter elephants - as has been said elsewhere they can decimate even a well trained and well led army - very frustrating in campaign mode.
chinese and korean skirmishers should be added and made avialable as mercenaries
Poss koreans with a large wicker shield -
chinese mayB slightly faster & unarmoured (this gives variety)

[Orb]

I thought the Arbalest was an exclusively western medieval crossbow... although it could be a pseudonym for the Lien Nu, which I think functioned like that. I'm not an expert on this.

Mongolian units - to keep a very mythological feel,

The Wolf handlers seem interesting, but I remember reading in the screenshots thread about the Indian tigers that it was only possible to have one pack animal (what about the vanilla incendiary pigs?)

Wolf Guard - these sound good but why not make them hold a wolf's head in one hand at the same time (or have a wolf's head where one hand would be), acting as a shield.

And... Blue Wolf Knights - Mongolian heavy cavalry on partly armoured dark blue wolves, carrying some unusual kind of weapon - flails, perhaps, if they're possible...

And I agree about the spear-throwers, I think ambushing an elephant ought be one of the best ways of killing it, presently I'm having to be careful ambushing the Krishnapur, because of their beasts of doom.

And - almost unrelated - do the Indian tribal fanatics seem a bit OP to anyone else?

[LoneRonin]

so are these army unit for RTW or BI or some mod, and where is the link for these

[Moros]

These are fom the BL mod for Rtw 1.5. The beta is in the thread called Blue Lotus open beta. The rest of the info is in the subforum.

[Intranetusa]

For future refernece chilly, terracota is rather brittle. If i'm not mistaken it's a type of clay, so think of how fragile a clay vase/bowl/whatever is. So they should have very low defense, but maybe 2(+) hitpoints as you can chop off an arm but they keep coming. If you were going to implament them i would recommend they serve as banner men, thier presence inspiring others and rallying the wavering (like the roman Aquali/1st Legion in vanilla). Also i believe that some of the mercenaries are definately mythological in nature.

East Asian terracotta was usually fired in blast furnaces that exceeded the temperatures required to liquify iron. The result was a type of ceramic that was extremely strong, stronger than most modern day concrete.

"so think of how fragile a clay vase/bowl/whatever is. "
They use ceramics in upper tier kevlar body armor that can stop assault rifle rounds, and also in the armor plating of modern tanks.

As for the terracotta soldiers, they would be brittle since the interior of the actual terracotta soldiers were hollow. (The insides of the terracota soldiers was just hollow cavities to reduce the weight)

[skuzzy]

I must say this is my favorite style of concept art I've seen on these forums. It has a good sense of speed and detail, color, efficiency, and displays purpose without unnecessary size or over analyzing. Other than that cool idea and I'll probably check it out but I love the concept art :)

[Ticu]

Are there any uniquely new units (new models and textures) being planned that will need concept art? I have done concept art in the past, but it is not of equal quality to this.

[Rinsui]

Nope. I was able to derive most of the concept art needed for the new unique units from existing ones.
But thanks for the offer!