Most overrated 'Musical artists'

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Who do you think are the most overrated singers/band/etc.
For me i think that:
1. Fantasia Borino (last American Idol winner) is wayy overrated. SHE SUCKED! I could compare her to those guys who do the islam prayre calls but I don't want to degrade them to her level.
2. Nirvana- Ok, they had some good songs, but for the most part, they sucked. And Curt Cobain was a BAD guitarist.
3. Neil Young- HATE HIM WITH A PASSION
4.Marylyn Manson- WHAT A FREAK! Black hair, black lipstick, black nail polish, black clothes, paper white face. Didn't we used to call that Halloween? He sucks. So does...
5. Rob Zombie- ok, I aint no metal fan, you can see that.
6. Eminem- A white rapper. Great.
7. Broadway- Anything on broadway I hate. almost.
8. Guns and Roses- They're not that good. They're ok but they are extremly overrated.
9. P. Daddy or Puff Diddy or whatever- I hate rap.
10. ODC or OBC or STD or whaever thatdead guy was- filth. simple filth.

[discovery1]

Britney Spears easily.

[Krusader]

Any Idol winners.

Ashlee Simpson

Linkin Park. Limp Bizkit wannabees.

57% of bands out there

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Greatful dead and Elvis

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Come on, Elvis is NOT overrated. he's a great vocalist. Some of his songs are overrated though.
Greatful dead are.

[dessa14]

1: frank sinatra, he might have been good, but he isn't the best of the age
2: mozart or Beethoven, both good composers, but by no means the best of the best, listen to some bach or Strauss.
3: Linkin Park
4: eminem (my god is it just me or do half his songs sound exactly the same)
5: Any country music Star (really i don't see why anyone would like that music)
i can't think of anymore.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Elvis sucks the big one. There has never been a more overated singer in history in my opinon. He dont hold a candle to Sinatra or Dean Martin or even Paul Mc Cartney or John Lennon.

[PanzerJaeger]

Any music that originated in the 80s or 90s... man things went downhill fast. :no:

I had high hopes with Guns and Roses.. but they dont hold a candle to anything from 66-76.

[JAG]

4.Marylyn Manson- WHAT A FREAK! Black hair, black lipstick, black nail polish, black clothes, paper white face. Didn't we used to call that Halloween? He sucks. So does...

I am sure he thinks you are a freak as well. What is a freak anyway? A freak to you might be perfectly normal to somebody else, I really think you shoul refrain from lavishing such disgust onto people because they are diffeent. But then you might be showing your age.

As to overrated artists I think it has to be - apart from all the pop crap - the Stones. Don't really see their huge appeal outside of a couple of songs they were average imo.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I am sure he thinks you are a freak as well. What is a freak anyway? A freak to you might be perfectly normal to somebody else, I really think you shoul refrain from lavishing such disgust onto people because they are diffeent. But then you might be showing your age.

Come on lighten up . Manson is a freak. Thats his bag. He has no problem with it in fact I would say he wants people to think of him that way. You really crack me up with this age thing . like you are a man of the world lol. Theres not much difference between your ages. Maybe I should hit you with that arguement more often kid.

Bye the way do you think Micael Jackson is a freak and do you think he will go to jail? It certainly dosent look good for him. Who better to defend him than you? ~D

[Quietus]

Most overrated: Bruce Springsteen.
Runner-up: Elvis Costello.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Most overrated: Bruce Springsteen.
*spits out coffee all over his screen*
Blasphemy! Springsteen is God.

Overrated:
1) All rappers/hiphoppers/R&B artists or whatever they're called.
2) Anybody who calls himself a 'pimp'.
3) The Rolling Stones, pretty average indeed.
4) Lenny Kravitz.
5) Maroon 5. Ok, so they're not big enough to be overrated. But I just don't like them.
6) The White Stripes.
7) Oasis.

[Fragony]

Indeed, everything that is rap. I don't like people that like rap. I don't like the way that people that like rap talk.

Any Idol winners.

They are torturing people with that in Norway too?????

The horror.......the horror......

What is a freak anyway? A freak to you might be perfectly normal to somebody else

Yeah to other freaks, common!

[The Tuffen]

Eminem without a doubt. His first album was ok, his second was pretty much the same (although i did like Stan) and i havn't heard any other albums but from the singles I wouldn't want to buy them.

[Beirut]

3. Neil Young- HATE HIM WITH A PASSION


Oh c'mon. Neil is real. He never sold out. He was there from the start and he's still doing his thing. Granted, Harvest Moon is a frightening song meant to be played while you're having your teeth drilled, but lots of Neil's stuff is fantastic.

Overrated...

Any and all rap "artists".
U2
Sting
Micheal Jackson. (I've got a $5 bet that he does time.)
Any and all rap "artists".

[Byzantine Prince]

2: mozart or Beethoven, both good composers, but by no means the best of the best, listen to some bach or Strauss.


Jeezus Christ what's wrong with you? Are you serious? This has to be some kind of sick joke. Mozart and beethoven are in the top 5 best composers of all time. How could you diss them like this?

Well I think Guns and Roses, ACDC, and Metalica are hugely overated. I really hate 80's metal music though. Except maybe for Motley Crue.

[Fragony]

I am not that big a fan of Mozart as well, his requiem being the exception. You know what is comming even when you have never heard it before, I think it is formulaistic(that a word??).

[Ronin]

-any kind of rap
-any kind of premanufactured pop...britney...christina..all that crap
-marilyn manson - musically overrated...but the guy sure as hell is smart...imagine....posing as a "freak" can make you $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
-any music coming from any "idol" type tv show
-U2
-Micheal Jackson....here´s more 5$ hoping he get´s some time ~D
-Rolling Stones
-the white stripes
-Oasis
-anyone that plays country.....what the hell is that about?



and last but not least.....


-The beatles......not a bad band...far from it....but people make them out to be a loooot better then they were....by far the most overrated band....ever...


*seeks cover for the objects that are bound to be hurled his way*

[nokhor]

Bill and Ted after their "Excellent Adventure.' an entire civilization based on their music? they were ok, but not that great, and that adventure wasn't too excellent either.

[Quietus]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, tied with Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton. Most overrated guitarist as well. His shabby guitar playing is a pain to the ear. ::wince::


-The beatles......not a bad band...far from it....but people make them out to be a loooot better then they were....by far the most overrated band....ever...
While the Beatles IMO are overrated, I don't think they are the most overrated. They had a lot of great songs. My favorites being Nowhere Man and In My Life. ~:)

[InsaneApache]

Led Zep and Quo, absolute dross

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, tied with Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton. Most overrated guitarist as well. His shabby guitar playing is a pain to the ear. ::wince::

Well Ill go along with SAprinsteen he sucks but to say that about Clapton is crazy. Have you ever listened to Cream. Give me a break.


The beatles......not a bad band...far from it....but people make them out to be a loooot better then they were....by far the most overrated band....ever...

Your out of your mind. The Beatles made rock what it is today. There has been nothing new since their time. They re invented it. The pushed it to the limits and back again. Tell me one grop or solo artist who accomplished so much so fast. Every album was better than the one before it and the quit on top of the world. Just looking at their albums alone you can see the evolution of Rock. They were also the first to make the younger generation realise what power they had. No musicins in history have had so profound effect upon not only music but society in general.

[Colovion]

I hate these threads

[Byzantine Prince]

Well Ill go along with SAprinsteen he sucks but to say that about Clapton is crazy. Have you ever listened to Cream. Give me a break.

Your out of your mind. The Beatles made rock what it is today. There has been nothing new since their time. They re invented it. The pushed it to the limits and back again. Tell me one grop or solo artist who accomplished so much so fast. Every album was better than the one before it and the quit on top of the world. Just looking at their albums alone you can see the evolution of Rock. They were also the first to make the younger generation realise what power they had. No musicins in history have had so profound effect upon not only music but society in general.


I completely agree. I can't beleave someone would question the beatles. All their songs are gold. Not a single miss. They were the first band band and they still are the best band ever to make music.

[InsaneApache]

@Gawain


Your out of your mind. The Beatles made rock what it is today. There has been nothing new since their time.

u guys make me smile from time to time...nothing new?.... ever heard of the Sex Pistols....the antithisis of the Beatles, and...I would venture that 'New Wave/Punk Rock' has more defined the modern 'rock' sound than anything that McCartney (oh plz) and co.

Well it certainly has in the UK....lol

[Ronin]

Your out of your mind. The Beatles made rock what it is today. There has been nothing new since their time. They re invented it. The pushed it to the limits and back again. Tell me one grop or solo artist who accomplished so much so fast. Every album was better than the one before it and the quit on top of the world. Just looking at their albums alone you can see the evolution of Rock. They were also the first to make the younger generation realise what power they had. No musicins in history have had so profound effect upon not only music but society in general.

if your talking about the profound effect of being able to put me to sleep you have a point there...

[Ronin]

@Gawain



u guys make me smile from time to time...nothing new?.... ever heard of the Sex Pistols....the antithisis of the Beatles, and...I would venture that 'New Wave/Punk Rock' has more defined the modern 'rock' sound than anything that McCartney (oh plz) and co.

Well it certainly has in the UK....lol

couldn´t have said it better.....acts like The Police , the pistols and the ramones are much more important to music today than the beatles in my opinion.

[LittleGrizzly]

wow lots of people hate rap, i love it well not that much of it, but the ones i love i really love

U2 you crazy!
oasis you crazy!

2. Nirvana- Ok, they had some good songs, but for the most part, they sucked. And Curt Cobain was a BAD guitarist.

in the backroom i have looked at your posts in disgust sometimes, but this.. this is just it, Nirvana are damn amazing!

anyway... ahh stop criticisng everyone elses choices make my own..

-any kind of premanufactured pop...britney...christina..all that crap

^^ ditto

any pop idol winner, sure i don't now them all but thier bound to be all as bad as each other...

Queen
and finally Elton John

JUSTIN TIMBERLAKE!!!!



he deserved that huge mention i feel, i was forced in work to listen to rock your body surronded by people who enjoyed the song, i even knew all the words... ~:mecry:~:mecry:

[DemonArchangel]

50 Cent
'nuff said.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Elvis is a great vocalist, much better than Lennon or McCartney.
Lennon
McCartney.
Ok, JAG.
Black hair, black nail polish, black eyeliner, black lipstick, paper white face. Excuse me, didn't we used to call that HALLOWEEN?
The Beatles- WAYYY Overrated can't hold a candle to floyd.
Queen is great, hammer to fall, nuff said.
U2 sucks.
NIRVANA MUST DIE. (wait...)
Quietus must die for insulting clapton...*draws knife**lunges**hits a car**dies*

[Procrustes]

Well ... to say that about Clapton is crazy. Have you ever listened to Cream. Give me a break.

Hi, If you haven't already you should listen to JJ Cale - I've always thought that is who Clapton wishes he could play like. (Clapton covered a bunch of his songs, too.)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

if your talking about the profound effect of being able to put me to sleep you have a point there...

So you can sleep through Helter Skelter?


couldn´t have said it better.....acts like The Police , the pistols and the ramones are much more important to music today than the beatles in my opinion.

Then you would be wrong. What is new in the Police? The Beatles covered a wider range of music than anyother band in the history of rock.

[Krusader]

Norway is going into 3rd season of Idol now. We even won the first world Idol contest. (Not that Im proud we did. He was called a Hobbit btw)

It seems Idol is almost everywhere, and I for one think its crap. Although there is a bit comic relief, when you see the persons who absolutely can't sing.

And back to topic:

Boybands!!

This hasn't been mentioned at all. 4 to 5 cute boys singing terrible songs, but selling records since young girls with braces need something to drool over and get wet about.

And I recommend watching "For Fairlane" with Andre Dice Clay. It's one of the best "boys" movies out there.

[Spino]

The Rolling Stones average.... AVERAGE???

I'll admit that most of the stuff they did after "Tatoo You" isn't worth listening to but my goodness, their stuff from the 60s and 70s is fantastic!

[dessa14]

clapton is a good guitarist, but not a good Artist, since he produced so very little work, nirvana are not quite that overrated, and while the beatles were good, they weren't the superband some people grant them.
police are definatly not overrated, and u2 didn't used to be.
thanks,
dessa

[Teutonic Knight]

As to overrated artists I think it has to be - apart from all the pop crap - the Stones. Don't really see their huge appeal outside of a couple of songs they were average imo.

I'm going to agree with you here, outside of Paint it Black and Satisfaction I never thought they were really all that. They certainly have nothing on the Beatles. And yet they're still called "the greatest rock n' roll band of all time". Plus that whole Altamont deal was pretty messy...

[Spino]

clapton is a good guitarist, but not a good Artist, since he produced so very little work, nirvana are not quite that overrated, and while the beatles were good, they weren't the superband some people grant them.
police are definatly not overrated, and u2 didn't used to be.
thanks,
dessa

Agreed, Clapton's best work was with Cream and Derek and the Dominoes.

[Lazul]

Well

*Everyd dum**ss "artist" jumping up and down like monkeys at the zoo calling themselfs Pimp, Thug or "Gangsta". Ok, not cool... just makes you look like a degraded m**on.
*Just about every mainstream R&B crap...
*Bruce..
*U2
*Stones
*Beatles
*Every "Pop idol","Idol" or "Pop Stars" winner...

For some good music, i recomed; Third Eye Blind, SR71, Jimmy Eat World, Sum 41, Deftones, Limp Bizkit and Anti-Flag... :bow:

[jimmyM]

u2, keane, franz ferdinand, the darkness, poop idol winners, alot of stones and beatles stuff, although alot is also great, madonna, bareback camel racing and so on...

[Goofball]

I would definitely put U2 at the top of the list. For a little entertainment, check out Maddox's latest rant featuring Bono et al:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=11worst

[Togakure]

For me the most overrated superstar would have to be Madonna. She can sing and dance ok I guess, but her success is predominantly thanks to those who make her music, design her clothes and dance routines, and plan/develop her attention-getting antics. She doesn't write her music; she doesn't coreograph her dances. Others do. Hence, I think the fame she personally enjoys is misplaced. I hope the folks behind the scenes of the Madonna phenomenon get paid well. Then again, this is the case for many, many pop "artists" today. And that's what they are--pop constructs, not really musicians, and hardly what I would consider artists.

[Quietus]

Quietus must die for insulting clapton...*draws knife**lunges**hits a car**dies*
For a stiff, soul-less guitarist? ~:eek: The Yanni/John Tesh/Kenny G. of guitar. :dizzy2: Add David Hasselhoff for vocals, all performing sincere, heartfelt poems by Bruce Springsteen and you can start the sleepiest band thread. ~;) LOL

[ah_dut]

Boybands!!

This hasn't been mentioned at all. 4 to 5 cute boys singing terrible songs, but selling records since young girls with braces need something to drool over and get wet about.

And I recommend watching "For Fairlane" with Andre Dice Clay. It's one of the best "boys" movies out there.
Hmm...can't agree more...
Busted and Macfly need to be arrested for murder of music Damn I hate them, they are sooo loved by irratating little girls

[NagatsukaShumi]

2. Nirvana- Ok, they had some good songs, but for the most part, they sucked. And Curt Cobain was a BAD guitarist.


Capo......must......die ~;)

Nirvana were great, do you just dislike grunge or just Nirvana on their own? Out of interest.

Yeah, Kurt (Yes, thats a K Cap ~;)) wasn't the best guitarist but so what? He played it well enough for me and made plenty of songs I love, he was more a lyricist than a musician.

As for Manson, some of his stuff if quite good though he isn't really "shocking" anymore so thats basically his career down the pan anyways. Oh, I also wear lots of black....am I a freak ~:confused:.

Worse....hmmmmm, McFly and Busted are definately there, ANYTHING from TV shows because they don't deserve it and fade after a few monthes (Where has that Michelle gone huh?). Britney just annoys me by the way she moves....I don't know why but it annoys me. Timberlake, pop him on my list, he is CRAP. 50 Cent, Eminem etc are all terrible, rap really isn't good and its turning England into a cesspool!

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Capo......must......die ~;)

Nirvana were great, do you just dislike grunge or just Nirvana on their own? Out of interest.

Yeah, Kurt (Yes, thats a K Cap ~;)) wasn't the best guitarist but so what? He played it well enough for me and made plenty of songs I love, he was more a lyricist than a musician.

As for Manson, some of his stuff if quite good though he isn't really "shocking" anymore so thats basically his career down the pan anyways. Oh, I also wear lots of black....am I a freak ~:confused:.

Worse....hmmmmm, McFly and Busted are definately there, ANYTHING from TV shows because they don't deserve it and fade after a few monthes (Where has that Michelle gone huh?). Britney just annoys me by the way she moves....I don't know why but it annoys me. Timberlake, pop him on my list, he is CRAP. 50 Cent, Eminem etc are all terrible, rap really isn't good and its turning England into a cesspool!
I don't like grunge.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I don't see the appeal in music that advocates murder, prostitution, and the degradation of the English language - this heresy known as "rap."

:no:

[Adrian II]

2: mozart or Beethoven (..)Overrated? Beethoven's piano sonatas can not be overrated. Dessa14, open your mouth. That's it. Raise your left foot to your face... there you go... Now carefully insert it into your mouth.

Oh, and I won't mention my own candidate for reasons of public health. Last time I brought up a stupendously bad singer, it caused several nervous break-downs in the .org ranks. Can't have that, can we? ~:cool:

[dessa14]

adrian, beethoven is overated for sure, when people think classical they automatically think either him or mozart, they act like he was the only musical artist of the period with any talent...
yes he was great, but not deserving of that.
thanks,
dessa

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Guiseppi Verdi was the greatest Clasical Composer, either him or Richard Wagner.
So ha

[dessa14]

capo there is no way, that anything other then an austrian or german would be the greatest classical composer.
thanks,
dessa

[InsaneApache]

J.S. Bach is THE man .... ~:cool:

[Navaros]

*spits out coffee all over his screen*

6) The White Stripes.


*spits out cream soda all over his screen*


sorry dude, The White Stripes are the best band in the world right now.

as for the topic of most over-rated:

all lipsyncers who get endless play on MTV and MuchMusic, namely:

1. Ashlee Simpson
2. Britney Spears
3. Lindsay Lohan

...and everyone else who can't sing yet puts out records anyways and lipsyncs. lipsyncing after having received money from the public should be illegal . Ashlee Simpson should already be in jail for the next 10 years.

[Togakure]

To me, comparing Bach, Beethoven and Mozart et. al. is like comparing Elvis to the Beatles to Led Zeppelin, etc. It's not very practical because the styles and beauty are so different.

JS Bach was the MAN when it comes to intricate counterpoint and interwoven melody and harmony. The technical, almost scientific perfection of his compositions never ceases to amaze me, and they are so beautiful on top of that. Few composers can bring me to tears, but JS Bach can.

Amadeus was so full of spirit, his music prances and preens like no other. He wrote so much in such a short life and it was all so full of life. I was never able to capture his spirit when I played because I'm the dour and passionate type; light and gay tunes just weren't my thing. But man, Mozart was quite a pop phenomenon.

Ludwig--this guy was the heavy metal dude of the classical period. Can't you just hear the storm on his brow? From the haunting limbo of the Moonlight, to the pounding fury of the Pathetique, his passion crawled from the depths of darkness to soar into the light of heaven. How can one not be moved by the melody of the Waldstein's second movement? And that he wrote some of his greatest works while basically deaf--simply amazing.

My personal favorite: Frederick Chopin. He could make the piano--a percussive instrument--sing. He had a bit of all three of the previously mentioned in his style, but with additional characteristics that were all his own. The technically demanding and lovely etudes; the flowing waltzes that swept gentlemen and ladies off their feet; the sleepy nocturnes that put me to sleep at night; magnificent.

***

Most overrated? Hmm. I don't think any of the classical artists are overrated really. This is really going to annoy a certain patron I think, but if I had to pick an overrated composer it would be Handel. While his work is respectable, compared to Bach, who is from the same (Baroque) period, he seems repetitive, flat, and lacking in inspiration to me. The Messiah has always sounded pretentious and almost circus-like to me. But that's just me ... .

[NagatsukaShumi]

I don't like grunge.

That explains it then, atleast you aren't like those kids who hate Nirvana because its "cool" ~:)

[Chimpyang]

We're forgetting josef Haydn - this guy should be at the top, he INVENTED the sonata form (which Elgar manipulated into his Cello Concerto in E minor - my fave piece personally) he wrote tons and tons of great music, witty (farewell symphony - tht was to make a point to his patron) and new surprise symphony (tht had me the first time round too). Also he makes up quite a bit of the classical repertoir esp for violins and stringed groups.

However, IMO when picking bwest composer you'll be tempted into making a bias towards a composer who has written most for your instrument as you are most familiar with his music.

[Quietus]

Chopin is my favorite among classical music as well. The Nocturnes is a beauty. His stuff comes out a lot more naturally than any I've heard! ~:) :bow:

Right now I'm listening to Emanuel Ax plays Chopin. Sounds great but it sounds more like a compilation. Any suggestions on Chopin cds is much appreciated! ~D

[Adrian II]

adrian, beethoven is overated for sure, when people think 9..)'Think' is the operative word here. I was under the impression that you shared people's 'thoughts'.
Point taken. Well, here we go then.

*Opens mouth, etcetera...*

[Adrian II]

Any suggestions on Chopin cds is much appreciated! ~DAnything by Martha Argerich, she's the queen imo. Casadesus, Rubinstein, Horowitz all very good.

[DemonArchangel]

Best Composer: Mozart.
No arguments.
NONE.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

greed, Clapton's best work was with Cream and Derek and the Dominoes.

You left out blind faith , John Mayall and the Blues breakers and the Yardbirds there m8 ~;) He did nice worl with all these bands. Im particualrly fond of Blind Faith. Did some nice stuff on While my Guitar Gently weeps also.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I didn't know Clapton was with Blind Faith.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

[Togakure]

My favorite performer of Chopin is Maurizio Pollini. For technical brilliance, check out his performance of the Etudes. Numbers One (C Major) and Four (C# Minor) are simply astounding. I managed to pull off One back in the day; I could never get Four up to speed. For subtle finesse and beauty, the Butterfly is wonderful. My favorite of his recordings is that of him performing the Ballades, including the first Ballade in G Minor, the last classical piece I performed live back when I was studying classical music seriously. This is, by far, my favorite performance of the G minor Ballade. He's released a recording of the Nocturnes along with Piano Concerto #1, and also a recording of the Preludes. Apparently he recorded a performance of the Scherzi, but I have never seen nor heard it. He's also recorded some Beethoven.

I like his performances better than those by Ashkenazy, Ax, Rubenstein, and even (with all due respect) Horowitz. His dynamic range seems broader to me, and his interpretations are closer to how I interpret his compositions. But, as Chimpyang said, we tend to gravitate towards those that wrote for our primary instrument. I also think we gravitate towards those performers that play most like we would like to be able to play. So it's all a matter of personal taste really, when you consider the great performers of today. I've not heard Agarich or Casadesus; I'll have to keep an eye out for their recordings.

***

Here is a link to a set of Pollini soundclips at Amazon which I just found (of the ballades at that; you gotta love Google), and some reviews.

Pollini Soundclips and reviews at Amazon (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001X58L/702-2692587-6180846)

Lol ... reading them reminded me of why I decided to leave the classical music scene. Yes, yes ... everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you thought opinions were wide and heartily expressed about modern music, heh, you would be surprised at the extremely opinionated and often snobbish folks that muck up the classical world. After eleven years of it I was sick to death. I just wanted to revel in the genius and brilliance of the music, and to hell with all the wannabes and 'experts' alike and their bitching, criticizing, etc.

You can always tell the ones who know: their fingers dance, their eyes close, their bodies sway back and forth. Sometimes they hum unconsciously, or even drool, lol. They have the music; the music has them. They KNOW.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

http://www.hiponline.com/artist/music/b/blind_faith/blindfaith.jpg


I didn't know Clapton was with Blind Faith.


Blind Faith was either one of the great successes of the late 1960's, a culmination of the decade's efforts by three legendary musicians--or it was a disaster of monumental proportions, and a symbol of everything that had gone wrong with the business of rock at the close of the decade. In actual fact, Blind Faith was probably both.

By any ordinary reckoning, the quartet compiled an enviable record. They generated some great songs, two of them ("Sea of Joy", "Presence of the Lord") still regarded as classics 30-plus years later; sold hundreds of thousands of concert tickets and perhaps a million more albums at the time; and they were so powerful a force in the music industry, that they were indirectly responsible for helping facilitate the merger of two major record companies that evolved into Time Warner, before they'd released a note of music on record. And they did it all in under seven months together.

Blind Faith's beginnings dated from 1968 and the break-up of the Cream. That band had sold millions of records and eventually achieved a status akin to that of the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. Cream's internal structure was as stressful as it was musically potent, however, as a result of the genuine personal dislike between bassist-singer Jack Bruce and drummer Ginger Baker, which occasionally overwhelmed the respect they had for each other as musicians, leaving guitarist-singer Eric Clapton to serve as mediator. After two years of service as a referee, spent all the while in an unremitting spotlight, the public seemingly hanging on every note he played, Clapton was only too happy to leave that situation behind.

The initial spark for Blind Faith came from Clapton and Steve Winwood, whose band Traffic had split up in January of 1969, amid acrimonious disputes over songwriting and direction. Winwood at age 20 was some three years younger than Clapton, and had emerged as a rock star at 17 as a member of the Spencer Davis Group, spending three years as their lead singer on a string of enviable r&b-based hits. His concerns were musical--he wanted to work with the best musicians, and wanted to experiment with jazz, which led him to leave the Spencer Davis Group and form Traffic, which proved riven by egos nearly as strong as the members' musical impulses. The January 1969 break-up would be the first of several temporary splits in the band's line-up.

The two musicians had long admired and respected each other -- they shared an enthusiasm for and dedication to the blues, and complimented each other in the sense that Clapton's work was more oriented toward Mississippi Delta blues and its urban descendants, while Winwood came out of more of an r&b sound and had the voice to make that work, and both were interested in experimenting in a group situation without any pressure. It had even occurred to Clapton during the months of Cream's disintegration that the addition of a fourth member on keyboards might have stabilized the band, in terms of both its music and its internal dynamics.

As it turned out, nothing could have saved Cream, but he looked up Winwood anyway after the band's demise, in late December of 1968, and the two found that they genuinely liked working together. The notion of forming a band took shape as an eventual goal during jams between the two that lasted for hours. At one point, Clapton even considered forming another trio, between himself and Winwood and a third member as drummer. These ideas took a sharp, new, more immediate turn when Ginger Baker turned up to sit in with them in January of 1969. The results were impressive to all concerned, and the drummer was eager to be let into the group they were planning.

Clapton found himself in a personal bind, having promised Baker on Cream's demise that they would work together on their next project, but he was not looking forward to reuniting with him just nine weeks after the old group's final show, with all of the expectations that their link-up would engender from outsiders. Apart from his resentment at being the buffer between Baker and Bruce, Clapton had felt straightjacketed in Cream, required by the demands of fans and, by extension, the record company, to write, play, and sing blues-based rock in a certain way; and he'd also felt trapped in the band's experimental departures from blues. Winwood, who failed to appreciate the dangers that Clapton saw or the seriousnness of the guitarist's resistance, finally persuaded him, largely on the basis on the fact that Baker's presence only strengthened them musically, and that they would be hard put upon to find anyone his equal.

They began working out songs early in 1969, and in February and March the trio was in London at Morgan Studios, preparing the beginnings of basic tracks for an album, which began seriously taking shape as songs at Olympic Studios in April and May under the direction of producer Jimmy Miller. The music community was already onto the link-up, despite Clapton's claim that he was cutting an album of his own on which Winwood would play. The rock press wasn't buying any of it, knowing that Baker was involved as well, and then the promoters and record companies got involved, pushing those concerned for an album and a tour.

What's more, they were offering more money than ever, for what seemed, from a business standpoint, a very good reason. Beginning with the Disraeli Gears album in 1967 and running thru Wheels of Fire in late 1968, Cream had been virtually a money-machine for their record labels, music publishers, and concert promoters alike. Their break-up had been a blow to the music business akin to the death of a top performer; it was hard for their record labels, Atlantic in America and Polydor in Europe, or the promoters prepared to book their tours, who or what could replace them on the ledger books. (It was true that Atlantic had at least one other major blues-rock iron in the fire at the time, in the guise of a new band called Led Zeppelin, but in early 1969 no one yet had an inkling of precisely how big that quartet was going to become).

Thus, the idea, coming along just three months later, of Eric Clapton reuniting with Ginger Baker and performing with Steve Winwood, who was, himself, a major star in England, was like a resurrection. And given a new bite at the apple, the record labels were salivating as they opened their checkbooks to write out big advances, and every concert promoter who could tried to get in on the money to be made, offering huge sums for the chance to profit from a tour by such a band.

It was all impossible to resist. In May, the final version of the band came together with the addition of Rick Grech, a talented musician but hardly a star, on bass. A member of the band Family (which he abandoned in the middle of their U.S. tour), Grech took the bassist's spot in the new group in preparation for going out on the road. By then the group was known as Blind Faith, a slyly cynical reference that reflected Clapton's outlook on the new group. His doubts might've been taken more seriously if anyone had stopped to dwell on the fact that they'd hardly had time to work out any songs beyond those that were going onto the album--at least, none that were not associated with other bands.

Tours were booked, first of northern Europe and then America, with millions of dollars promised for the latter, contracts signed, and advances paid. The band made its debut at a concert in London's Hyde Park on June 7, 1969, in front of 100,000 fans who'd been primed by weeks of press reports heralding Blind Faith as "super Cream" and their tour as an event akin to the Second Coming.

From that first show, there was trouble over the split between the adulation accorded the band and Clapton's misgivings over the quality of the group's work. A perfectionist by nature, he reportedly left the stage at Hyde Park shaken over the ragged quality of the show they'd given, while 100,000 people roared with approval over their performance. He could already see the same pattern that had made his stay with Cream utterly enervating as a musical experience re-emerging with Blind Faith--the fans could cheer all they wanted, but he had musicianship to care about and worry over, and it was a lousy show. The tour had already been booked, however, and there was more involved than Clapton's musical sensibilities to consider. And, in a sense, maybe the promoters knew more than Clapton did--it turned out that all the quartet had to do was show up to please the crowds that they found.

Unbeknownst to Clapton as he pondered going out on the road with an unprepared, under-rehearsed band--and it would have boggled his mind had he known--on the other side of the Atlantic, the hype surrounding Blind Faith had already affected a much bigger part of the record industry than any aspect of the group's impending tour ever would. In early 1969, Warner-Seven Arts, previously known as the Kinney Corporation (a company that made millions in the parking garage business), was in the process of acquiring record companies. Under the guidance of their president, Steve Ross, they'd already bought Warner Bros. studios, which included Warner-Reprise Records, and had arranged to purchase Atlantic Records late in 1968.

Ross knew, however, that Atlantic was worth acquiring only if its president, founder, and chief guiding personality, Ahmet Ertegun, stayed with the company--but Ertegun, a true music enthusiast as well as a superb businessman, wasn't convinced that he wanted to work for a corporate owner. He'd founded Atlantic with his brother and a partner, and liked being his own boss and calling the musical shots as he'd seen them, rather than reporting to anyone else.

Ross saw his investment in jeopardy and scheduled a meeting with Ertegun to try and convince the man to stay on. The problem for Ross was that Atlantic was practically a part of Ertegun, and Ertegun was almost as much an artist as a businessman, all of which was part of the secret of his success in holding together a team of creative production and engineering geniuses like Jerry Wexler and Tom Dowd, not to mention the stable of artists they worked with.

A few nights before the meeting, he'd been at home when his teenage son passed through with a friend, who'd heard that Ross was in the process of buying Atlantic Records. The friend had started telling Ross about how hot Atlantic Records looked to be, and about the break-up of the Cream; he enthused over Clapton's hook-up with Winwood and Baker, and the notion being floated in the press of the Blind Faith tour and album, the latter to be released by Atlantic, and how every rock listener in America was just waiting to grab up that album and pay to see the group.

Ross, who was of an age that made him part of Vaughn Monroe's or Patti Page's audience, hadn't a clue what the teenager was talking about, and knew nothing about Cream, Clapton, or Blind Faith. As he later recounted it, however, when he met with Ertegun, the matter of Blind Faith came up in the conversation, as Ertegun was trying to explain what Atlantic was involved in musically. Ross saw his opening and tried his best to run with it, desperately attempting to recall, as he stood there talking, everything that his son's friend had told him about the Cream, Clapton, Baker, and Winwood, even though he knew nothing of the music involved. Ertegun, who was at least impressed with Ross's attempt to communicate with him about music, agreed to remain with the new management of Atlantic, which prospered in the 1970's and 1980's under his guidance even more than it had in the 1950's and 1960's. Thus marked the beginning of what soon became Warner-Elektra-Atlantic and, most recently, Warner-EMI Records.

The brief Blind Faith tour of northern Europe in June of 1969 went well. These were out-of-the-spotlight events in small clubs, before serious audiences that were there to listen to music--northern Europe had (and has) a long tradition for offering this kind of audience, which allowed bluesmen of lesser stature than Clapton et al to earn decent livings playing in that part of the world.

From there, however, they moved on to the United States, making their debut at Madison Square Garden on July 12 in front of more than 20,000 people. A riot developed when fans charged the stage, only to be repulsed by the police; in the half-hour melee that ensued, Ginger Baker was clubbed on the head by a policeman who thought he was an interloper, and Winwood's piano was destroyed. The environment and that sort of passion placed the group in a ridiculous situation--in truth, they didn't sound that good and they knew it, and the nature of sound systems in 1969 destroyed whatever panache they might've brought to their performance, as an under-rehearsed group; yet audiences roared and demanded more music, and rioted at their shows.

It was that way along the entire tour, seven weeks across the United States and Canada ending in Hawaii, marred by particularly angry confrontations between fans and police in Los Angeles. Even as they made their way across the country, the band was questioned about why Clapton seemed to be placing himself on the periphery and giving center-stage to Winwood, who was far less well known in America at that time. The band's repertory also seemed very light, their new material--even allowing for the inevitable Ginger Baker drum solo on "Do What You Like"--amounting to barely an hour's worth of music. The way the band had been marketed, the requests for performances of earlier hits by each of the star members, especially Clapton and Baker's work with Cream, were inevitable, and the group obliged them.

Clapton was now trapped in a kind of "mega-Cream" situation, only worse--there hadn't been any riots at the trio's shows--and seemed as though he'd rather have been somewhere else. To him, it must have seemed as though he'd sold his soul to the Devil; there was no backing out on the tour, just enduring it, and hoping that when the smoke cleared the monetary reward would mitigate the miseries he'd suffered. Where the music they were playing should have been the highlight, it was a chore and an obligation. He did find a haven in music along the tour, but not Blind Faith's--one of the opening acts was a country- and blues-based rock act called Delaney & Bonnie, who had a fun, freewheeling approach to performing and a surprisingly soulful sound. He began spending more time hanging out with them than with the members of Blind Faith, listening to what they were doing and enjoying it, and comparing notes on the blues with Delaney Bramlett.

Blind Faith's tour ended on August 24, 1969. By that time, the self-titled album--which ran into controversy over its cover, of a topless pre-pubescent girl, and was repackaged in America with a photo of the group--had been out for almost a month, and had already sold more than half-a-million copies in America alone, hitting No. 1 on the charts in England and America. The money was rolling in to all concerned even as they realized that the album showcased one of the fundamental flaws in the band's conception. There was very good music on Blind Faith, but there wasn't a lot of it--barely 40 minutes' worth, which was hardly a body of music worthy of a international-class act. It was a good album, but those six songs didn't constitute a repertory, much less a defined sound.

In a more logical sequence of events, the group would've spent more weeks rehearsing, and played some more small gigs in England or northern Europe, perfecting their sound and working out material. They would've had time to become a group, with the debut album issued in the midst of that; and then prepared a second LP, recorded and ready to go when their international bookings began, shows for which they would've had at least a dozen songs that they could claim as their own.

Instead, the logic collapsed like a row of dominoes falling: Baker joining, which got the press excited about a reconstituted Cream, which raised the stakes and the pressure for an immediate tour and an even more immediate album. In the end, Blind Faith was like a baby removed too soon from the womb and asked to grow and thrive.

The group returned to England amid alternate rumors of a UK tour or a break-up. By October, what was already a forgone conclusion to the members became official--there would be no second Blind Faith album, not from the studio or even a live album (though a couple of live tracks surfaced on the 1995 Steve Winwood retrospective set The Finer Things), nor any release of the film they'd made of the Hyde Park show.

Blind Faith ultimately proved too little and too much all at once. The band had left its members a bit shell-shocked, Clapton most of all, but even he had lots of money to show for it (and more coming in, the Blind Faith tour and album helping stimulate sales of the Cream's old albums as well). He retreated to the safety of Delaney & Bonnie, where he began playing some of the best blues of his entire career; no longer in a leadership position, or expected to step into the spotlight at every turn, he got his wish for anonymity on tour with the group from December of 1969 until early 1970, in the course of which he also met the sidemen--Carl Radle, Jim Gordon, and Bobby Whitlock--that would finally give him the kind of safe, anonymous showcase for his work that he'd hoped Blind Faith would be, in Derek & the Dominoes, who did exactly what he'd hoped Blind Faith would do, play small clubs very quietly and work out their music out of the spotlight.

Ginger Baker, however, found the Blind Faith experience to be no worse than a mixed blessing. There'd been little new musical discovery, but the money had been very good, and it had proved that audiences would turn out for an offshoot of the Cream. Additionally, he'd liked working with Winwood and Grech, and decided to try and keep them together. This led to the formation, in late November of 1969, of Ginger Baker's Air Force, a big-band ensemble whose sound embraced rock, jazz, r&b, folk, African music, and blues.

Winwood and Grech would only remain with that group long enough to play at a pair of shows debuting the band in England during January of 1970. It was understood that, at the behest of Chris Blackwell, the head of Island Records (to which Winwood was signed), Winwood was to begin work on a projected solo album and was taking Rick Grech with him, into what would become the Traffic reunion album John Barleycorn Must Die. Meanwhile, the memory of Blind Faith lingered with the album, which became a perennial favorite in Clapton's, Winwood's, and Baker's catalogs. Clapton and Winwood later came to appreciate the record. For all of their musical merits, which were considerable, Blind Faith's short life-span made them virtually a symbol of the tail-end of the 1960's and what those years were about: Too much too soon in that overheated cultural, psychic, and business environment, even for the prodigious talents and personalities involved, resulting in a quick burn-out.

~:cheers:

[TheSilverKnight]

In response to all of the Classical Music posts...
WHY ARE YOU GUYS FORGETTING THE MASTER OF ENGLISH BAROQUE?!!
George Frederick Handel is the man of English music ~D
He wrote music for a royal boat trip
Dozens of Concerti Grossi
Fireworks Music
Oxford Water Music
Trio Sonatas
AND THE MESSIAH!!
Plus dozens of operas

Why...OH WHY...must you forget such a genius?! ~:eek:

[Togakure]

Whew ... he didn't notice. ~D

I like Handel's handling (arr arr) of horns. I've always admired the used of horns in English classical music. Especially FRENCH horns ... arr arr arr. ~:cool:

[Teutonic Knight]

Watch out Toga, TSK is a downright religious fanatic about his Handel! Do not anger or insult him or he may become violent and hurl violins and French horns at us! :duel:

[Togakure]

Aww come on ... surely he can Handel it?? Well, I'm not one to run Hayden--when I'm done Chopin him up with my katana I'll just bury him in the Bach yard. He won't need a Barber when I get through with him. His face will be three shades of Scarlatti. Debussey him, tell him I said Freddie didn't make it onto my Liszt! Hopefully he won't get too Straussed out about it.

hehe.

[Quietus]

Thanks for all the Chopin suggestions! I prefer the latest discs (~10-12 years or so) for the sound quality, so whoever fits the category. Also, I prefer the ones with orchestra or accompaniments as opposed to solo piano (eg. Concerto no. 1 for Piano). ~:)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Aww come on ... surely he can Handel it?? Well, I'm not one to run Hayden--when I'm done Chopin him up with my katana I'll just bury him in the Bach yard. He won't need a Barber when I get through with him. His face will be three shades of Scarlatti. Debussey him, tell him I said Freddie didn't make it onto my Liszt! Hopefully he won't get too Straussed out about it.

hehe.

aaaaaaaaah! Stop it please! No more! :help:


~D

[TheSilverKnight]

Watch out Toga, TSK is a downright religious fanatic about his Handel! Do not anger or insult him or he may become violent and hurl violins and French horns at us! :duel:
Wow...you know me quite well ~D

[Chimpyang]

Acutally one can say that Tomaso Albioni is over rated.....he is famous for one thing...Adagio for Organ and Strings in G.....and he didnt even wirte it..it was attibed to him but it was wrritten by someone else............




But you have to heear Brahms' harmonies and Elgar's still wonderful pre war pompousness and the post war (WW1) reflection. That is where iget my taste opf music from..i find my self playing the first 3 chords of the first movement of the cello concerto in my head. Also woeth a mention:

Johann Sebastien Bach - Baderine
Paganini - Carpice No.24
Nolck - Hungarian Dance
Brahms - Hungarian Dance No 5
Dvorak -Violin Concertini, Hungarian Dances - New World Symphony
Vivaldi - Any number of concertos....not just the 4 seasons too....
Haydn - Any of his quartets.......or concertos
Stravinsky - Firebird Suite
John Walton - Crown Imperial
Bizet - L'Arlessienne Suite No.2
Mozart - A Musical Joke - Rondo Alla Turca
Faure - Pavane
Elgar - Enigma Variations
Vaughn Williams - English Folk Songs and Fantasia on Greensleeves...

Btw if anyone else can think of any tht deserve to be on there do say....

[TheSilverKnight]

Acutally one can say that Tomaso Albioni is over rated.....he is famous for one thing...Adagio for Organ and Strings in G.....and he didnt even wirte it..it was attibed to him but it was wrritten by someone else............

Actually, Albinoni did write the bass line of the Adagio for Organ and Strings in G Minor, his biographer, Remo Giazotto, finished the main strings part.
But you're right, he is remembered only for his Adagio, but he wrote plenty of other charming Concertos and Sinfonias that I posess in my large Baroque collection, all of which reflect his uniquely Venetian Style

[Teutonic Knight]

Sinfonias that I posess in my large Baroque collection


If you say that's in a musty old marble hallway then you make my day. ~D

[TheSilverKnight]

If you say that's in a musty old marble hallway then you make my day. ~D

*looks down musty old marble baroqueish hallway* yep ~D

[Chimpyang]

Actually, Albinoni did write the bass line of the Adagio for Organ and Strings in G Minor, his biographer, Remo Giazotto, finished the main strings part.
But you're right, he is remembered only for his Adagio, but he wrote plenty of other charming Concertos and Sinfonias that I posess in my large Baroque collection, all of which reflect his uniquely Venetian Style


Fiar enough...didn't know that...now i do, thanks!