Nazi straight-arm salute

[Shadow]

Do you guys know what does the Nazi straight-arm salute means and its origins ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I'm not certain but isn't it good old "ave"?
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[Byzantine Prince]

Well I can give you some limited insight into the topic.

You see Hitler was a big fan of Benito Musolini. So he copied a lot of Italy's custom's. The Nazi salute was used in Italy first. So was the duck walk of Germany's military. During the Fascist years of Italy the governemnt wanted to imitate Roman imperialist styles. The origin of the salute is Roman. You might have even seen in some movies about Rome.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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...So was the duck walk of Germany's military....
Nah, it's Prussian. :yes:
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[Axeknight]

Romans would hit their left chest with their right hand then extend it and say "Hail Caesar!". Or at least they do in Spartacus

[Watchman]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off. The Nazis made a lot of vague references to Rome in general - I've been told the concept of "Third Reich" placed Berlin as the "third Rome", the first two having been Rome (duh) and Byzantium. They obviously ignored the far older Russian claim of Moscow as the third Rome...

That weird-looking goose-step march seems to have been endemic in Central and Eastern europe, even today. I've read the Wehrmacht specifically banned teaching the silly thing to line units - it was only used in those big parades the Nazis so liked. It's still staple in East European military parades, AFAIK.

[Byzantine Prince]

The Duck walk is not Prussian. Where did you get that? The duck walk is roman. Even greece still has a slower form of the duckwalk from the eastern roman period.

[Watchman]

The Prussians are the most likely route for the silly thing to find its way into the German military, naturally. I mean, after the Unification "German military" was probably more or less synonymoys with "Prussian" in most things...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It's Goose Step not duck walk.
And it is from Brandenburg.

[Byzantine Prince]

Whatever dudes, Italy had it as well.

[Shadow]

So you say the salute is from Rome and all this time I thought it have some connection with the Americans Pledge of Allegiance which also have a straight-arm salute. After all they are all socialists ~D

[Byzantine Prince]

Sure that makes sense you misunderstood.

After all America=Centre of the World.

[Kraxis]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off. The Nazis made a lot of vague references to Rome in general - I've been told the concept of "Third Reich" placed Berlin as the "third Rome", the first two having been Rome (duh) and Byzantium. They obviously ignored the far older Russian claim of Moscow as the third Rome...

That weird-looking goose-step march seems to have been endemic in Central and Eastern europe, even today. I've read the Wehrmacht specifically banned teaching the silly thing to line units - it was only used in those big parades the Nazis so liked. It's still staple in East European military parades, AFAIK.
Yeah, the Nazis certainly ripped a lot off from Rome, but the Third Reich wasn't one of them. The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire at its peak, you know when the emperor actually controlled his subjects (the Ottos), the Second Reich was the one that fought the world alongside Austria-Hungaria in WWI. At least that is what I have been taught. It was meant to indicate that Germany would always remain strong and would always come back regardless of its misfortunes.

On the Goose Step I am being general, so don't think I picking on you Watchman. ~:cool:
The Goose Step, directly translated, is 'Stretch March'. I wonder why it is called Goose Step (never heard about that name before I came to this thread), but Stretch March is rather fitting given you have to keep the legs streight and slam the feet down.
While it might have been used in Italy it was a thing adopted from the old Imperial army, which was in fact based on the Prussian armies. So the Germans used what they had always been using (as far as they themselves thought). And yes, it was never used in combat or even on the march, it was made for a grand spectacle but it is taxing on the physique, so any military value it has not.
Wether it is silly or not depends on what you are looking for. If it is silly because it is only used for parades, then it is equally silly with dressuniforms and other paradethings (like the 'Look right/left' order when marching or standing still). If you look at it from a coordination viewpoint then it is in fact a rather impressive thing, and quite refined. Well I at least consider it so.

[Byzantine Prince]

You are mostly right. The second Reich was started at Versailles on January 18, 1871, German Empire, the Second Reich with Wilhelm II in the throne.

[Kraxis]

You are mostly right. The second Reich was started at Versailles on January 18, 1871, German Empire, the Second Reich with Wilhelm II in the throne.
Where is that different from what I said? It is exactly the same as the one that fought WWI. Now I didn't mention when it was created as I couldn't remember when it was formed, but I know that it started out with Wilhelm I who died somewhere in the 1890's I think. Wilhelm II was the militaristic monarch who 'gave' Germany a fleet and managed to get alliances so that WWI was unavoidable for Germany.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

We used to use the straight arm salute until it became associated with the Nazi's. I once saw a picture from a really old highschool yearbook and it shows the whole school doing it.

[lars573]

The facist salute which is what the nazi straight-arm salute is called these days is Roman in origin. But Mussollini only ever used half of it. The full salute started with the troops putting their closed right fist to their left shoulder then swing their arm up and out and opening their hand, you see a good rendition in the mirror mirror episode of star trek of all places. When I was watching a doc about Mussollini on hisotry TV they showed a relif of Legionaries parading in triumph in front of the emperor and they are all giving the facist salute. But they in the picture only the troopers who have passed the emperor have their arm extended the ones who haven't have their fist held to their shoulder. Also the emperor was returning the troops saluting with that broken armed wave thing that Hitler liked to do.

As for the goose step you can find many armies everywhere who still use it for formal parades. But I've only ever seem it done in N.Korean parades and Chinese ones too.

The whole third reich thing goes like this. First reich the holy roman empire of Chuck the best (Charlemagne). Second reich the empire of Bismarch and Wilhelm (WW1 germany).

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

[Shadow]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

Sorry I don't understand you I only speak English

[Kraxis]

lars, the Russians use it still, though it is a rather slow and deliberate march only used for guards. You know the three guards that march around at the Unknown Soldier's grave and such places. But they added to the march the swinging of arms, which makes it look even more out of place. Inf act they love he swinging march so much that they actually use it in normal marching as well. And with those striped shirts they have they end up looking like a bunch of brawdy sailors. ~D

[Ser Clegane]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

8 spelling errors (not counting the Umlaut, but counting the error in the last line)

I'm gonna ask your German-teacher to give you an F ~D

Sorry, I couldn't resist myself either...

[Byzantine Prince]

Lol I knew there was a lot wrong with that even though im not really that fluent in German.

I do NOW agree with that the goose-step is from Prussia though. Even though that wasn't the initial topic.

[Shadow]

8 spelling errors (not counting the Umlaut, but counting the error in the last line)

I'm gonna ask your German-teacher to give you an F ~D

Sorry, I couldn't resist myself either...

So what does it mean ?

[Ser Clegane]

So what does it mean ?

It's the first two lines of a song sung by German tank crews in WWII

Here is an English translation of the (seemingly) complete lyrics (the translation is not literal in each and every word, but that's a bit hard for a song anyway; the lines quoted by Capo are in bold):

In blizzard or storm,
Or in sun warm and bright,
The day hot as hell
Or bone-chilling be the night,
Our faces may with dust be laid,
But spirits never fade,
No, never fade;
Relentless, our tank
Thunders out on a raid.

With engines a-howling,
Fast as is the wind,
We head for the foe,
Safe, as we're in armor skinned.
Our comrades still behind us roam;
We fight the foe alone,
Yes, fight alone.
We stab through the line
To break the foes backbone.

Whenever the foe
May appear in our sight,
We'll ram throttle full,
Then we'll humble all his might!
Of what use is our life if we
Our country serve freely?
Yes, serve freely!
To die for our country,
Our honour shall be.

With tank traps and mines,
Our foe tries to impede.
We laugh at his ruses;
We know he'll not suceed.
And when, in threat, his cannons stand,
Half hidden in the sand,
Yes, in the sand,
We can find our way
Over much safer land.

And should at long last,
Fickle Lady Luck leave,
And we remain here,
Leaving family to grieve,
A bullet with our name on it,
Find us and seal our fate,
Yes, seal our fate,
Our tank will our grave be
On that final date.

Link (http://ingeb.org/Lieder/obssturm.html)

P.S.: I am actually not familiar with that one - had to look it up myself. So don't expect me to be an expert on the topic ~:)

[Suppiluliumas]

Here's an interesting example, ironically, from the latest Rome derby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4163979.stm

[Byzantine Prince]

HAHAHAHA!!!! Look at his face while he does the salute. That is prescious. LMAO!!!

[Shadow]

Here's an interesting example, ironically, from the latest Rome derby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4163979.stm

This thread was created due to this incident as my friend a Lazio fan ask me for help on the salute.

by the way, Ser Clegane thanks alot for the translation.

[Strategy]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off.

The Fascist salute has nothing to do with the Romans, except perhaps in the fevered minds of Benito Mussolini and early 20th century film-makers.

There is no ancient evidence - textual or iconographic - to even indicate that the raised straight-arm salute was Roman (and no, the so-called Equestrian salute of Marcus Aurelius is not a straight arm salute and is probably better described as a benevolent wave, IMO).

The evidence - such as there is - for a specific Roman military salute all point toward it being a simple touch of the helmet quite similar to military salutes of today (see e.g., the Ahenobarbus relief (http://www.insecula.com/us/oeuvre/photo_ME0000035626.html) or the grave monument of Flavius Mikkalus).

Again, regarding "the duck walk" or any other march step, there is no evidence to link it in any shape or form to the Ancient Romans (or Greeks for that matter). There isn't particular good evidence to even show that they drilled marching in step, let alone how they did so.

[Shadow]

-Quote-
Mr Di Canio has spoken

The Derby della Capitale still isn’t over, as Paolo Di Canio defends his controversial celebrations and slams Roma’s star players.

The veteran was a key figure in the 3-1 victory on Jan 6, scoring the opening goal, but was caught by photographers’ lenses in what appeared to be a Nazi salute after the final whistle.

“I had only gone to the sidelines in order to experience this win with the fans,” assured the lifelong Lazio supporter.

“There were many photographers there and they can take hundreds of pictures per minute with those new cameras. I only had my arm raised for a second, but they made it seem like something it wasn’t.”


This shows the power of the media ~D

[Shadow]

The Fascist salute has nothing to do with the Romans, except perhaps in the fevered minds of Benito Mussolini and early 20th century film-makers.

There is no ancient evidence - textual or iconographic - to even indicate that the raised straight-arm salute was Roman (and no, the so-called Equestrian salute of Marcus Aurelius is not a straight arm salute and is probably better described as a benevolent wave, IMO).

The evidence - such as there is - for a specific Roman military salute all point toward it being a simple touch of the helmet quite similar to military salutes of today (see e.g., the Ahenobarbus relief (http://www.insecula.com/us/oeuvre/photo_ME0000035626.html) or the grave monument of Flavius Mikkalus).

Again, regarding "the duck walk" or any other march step, there is no evidence to link it in any shape or form to the Ancient Romans (or Greeks for that matter). There isn't particular good evidence to even show that they drilled marching in step, let alone how they did so.

So who am I to believe ?

[Kraxis]

Quite interesting Strategy... That could indeed change out pereception of where the current salute comes from. The story I have heard is that it is derived from knights who wanted to salute the other for some reason, so he lifted his visor (to show his face), thus the hand ended up at the eyebrow.
That one seems rather plausible as it is a topdown development from a time when only the top had a say in quite a few matters.

But if the Romans used much the same salute then, perhaps it has lingered somewhere... until it came out again somewhere in the 1850s (remember that napoleonic infantry saluted with their right hand straight across the chest, but don't know about officers).

[The Wizard]

Bah... Lazio Roma... their hardcore fans are fascists... go AS Roma!

Anyways, back on-topic:

Well, Krax, regarding the traditional soldier's salute... am I right to assume you are proposing a connection between that salute and the evolution to the straight arm salute?



~Wiz

[Byzantine Prince]

Quite interesting Strategy... That could indeed change out pereception of where the current salute comes from. The story I have heard is that it is derived from knights who wanted to salute the other for some reason, so he lifted his visor (to show his face), thus the hand ended up at the eyebrow.

No NO NO NO~!!! That's completely different. That's what every military does today even. That's today salute. The Nazi one i not related.

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it. Only the the leader's and generals would do it. And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it. No one else had it. How do you explain that?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

hehehe I know I spelt a lot wrong.
I just typed it up quickly.
And I have NO idea how to get the umlaut or whatever.
so ha.

[Gregoshi]

So who am I to believe ?
Good question. I'd like to know too. I believe we've reached that point where references would be mighty helpful.

[Byzantine Prince]

Well for some reason people put the salute in Roman movies like Ben-hur.

http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html

I guess I was wrong. Oh well at least I learned something.

http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%209.jpg

[Strategy]

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it.


Uhm; and why exactly should I refrain from stating something that is pure and simple truth?



Only the the leader's and generals would do it.


And the evidence for this is where?


And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it.

Possibly he thought that was what he did; but then old Mussolini wasn't exactly the most intelligent man out there.


No one else had it. How do you explain that?

The straight-arm salute with palm faced outward was widely used throughout the world long before the rise of fascism; it is believed to have been in widespread use by civilians in the USA in the 1800s (an outstretched open palm is a fairly natural way of saying - look, I'm not packing). It was most certainly institutionalized by Francis Bellamy in 1892 as the pledge of allegiance for the American flag (with a very precise description of how it was to be done). It was widely used in US schools from that time forward to 1942 when it was replaced by law.

It was adopted for the Romans in the very first filmatization of Ben Hur (1907) - an American film (guess where they are likely to have gotten it from?), before it appeared in Italian films such as "Spartaco" (1914) and "Cabiria" (1914). The Italian fascists who first made use of the straight-arm salute (Mussolini's mentor, D’Annunzio), had been closely involved in the making of Cabiria. It is perhaps also not irrelevant for the adoption of a similar pledge by the Italian/German fascists that Bellamy - like Mussolini et al - was both a Socialist and a Nationalist (from just before the time when the movement took hold and really started down the road of ugliness). In the fascist era, of course, it was institutionalized by Hollywood, German and Italian filmmakers in the 1930s in ancient and contemporary films ("Triumph of the Will" being the most famous, of course).

Again; there is no literature or inscription which describes anything resembling a fascist salute. There is no iconography which features fascist salutes. Statues of Emperor's with their arms outstretched have them bent, and the Aurelius statue has his hand stretched down (something which is not easily seen on all pictures, but is clear if you see it in person) and with his fingers spread.

The same goes for the arm thumping to chest thing. No evidence whatsoever. That one seems to be entirely the invention of Hollywood.

The fiddling with helmet thingy is - just possibly - a salute (and is considered as such by some historians); however, the evidence even here is still fairly slim (though at least there is some evidence).

[Strategy]

Oh well, can see I spent a little too long playing FM2005 before I came back to finish up my reply. Reminder to self: refresh browser before posting. ~:)

A better read than Curry's site (which is just a teeny bit too extreme for my tastes) is Martin Winkler's article on "The Roman Salute in Film".

[Byzantine Prince]

I agreed with you, why are you still arguing.

[Rosacrux redux]

This site you posted, BP, is so full of crap, I wouldn't trust it for a nanosecond, even if it stated "the sun rises from the east", I'd start having my doubts about it...

What a moronic, socialist-loathing, fascist FREAK!

No offense to you, matey BP, it's just that such humanoids trying to discredit socialism by finding ties with the fascist and nazis (while constantly forgetting that fascism and nazism are right wing ideologies), are making me extremely sick...

After the brief intermission, we are getting back to our topic...

[Rosacrux redux]

On Trajan's column we are finding a couple of "salutes" (interpreted that way by some historians, at least).

One of them is considered the basic infantry salute: (From Y. Le Bohec's book "die romische armee") " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute, raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a number of reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently unearthened in Turkey".

If accurate, these are giving us a very old ancestor for the basic military salute of today, no?

The other salute is what the same writer considers as "the basic cavalry salute": In scenes LVII and LXIII two equites are raising the right hand, in a gesture pretty much similar to what we call today "Roman salute".

Other writers seem to consider the Mithraic customs introduced in the Roman Army during those times - the "adoratio" (kissing the fingertips of the
right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).

So, there seems to be a connection to Rome, after all. If we take this guy at face value, that is.

[Shadow]

So I see we are now moving into the grey area.

[Rosacrux redux]

So I see we are now moving into the grey area.

pardon? ~:confused:

[The Wizard]

Indeed... what are you talking about?



~Wiz

[Byzantine Prince]

I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that that picture is a photoshop as well?

[Gregoshi]

I'm not sure he's suggesting that BP, but, in a rather "excitable" way, he has issues with the accuracy and objectivity the information at the website you referenced. I knew nothing about this Rex Curry guy, but in doing a little looking around his site, he has a lot of political axes to grind (to put it nicely). As such, I think I'd tend to share Rosacrux's strenuous objections and be highly suspicious of the accuracy of any information I found there. This guy has an agenda to support.

Back on topic, it amazes me how historians take little bits of information and draw conclusions from it. These possible examples of Roman salutes being a good case. I'm impressed at the conclusions they come to, but I often wonder how accurate they are. For all we know, the "salute" on Trajan's column is representative that he(?) had bad dandruff and was constantly scratching his head. But I've not studied history, so I'll leave the heavy thinking to the experts.

[Rosacrux redux]

I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that that picture is a photoshop as well?

Errr... aren't we all a bit confused here?

BP, if this question is for me, what I am suggesting is that prior to the Nazis, the straight-arm salute was a common practice in most - if not all - US schools and not some obscure plan of the socialists to take over USA and destroy the American way of living, apple pie and coka cola, as that feckwitt you linked is presenting it... ~D ~D ~D

Edited to add

Ah, thank you Gregoshi, yes this curry clown has made me so sick, that my writing was rather incomprehensible... yes, BP, that's the point.

[Gregoshi]

D'oh, simultaneous posts. I suppose I did capture the spirit of your objection then Rosacrux?

[The Wizard]

The so-called 'nazi salute' was actually used by many, many Catholic organizations as a greeting. It was widespread as a custom all over the Western world.

The nazis adopted many of those customs, and after their downfall, these things were, logically, abandoned because they had become symbols of the nazi regime of Germany. The swastika was another victim of this.



~Wiz

[Rosacrux redux]

Yes, one of the most ancient symbols of the world. Used in ancient India 4000 years ago, in Egypt and Greece 3500 years ago and in several other places... discredited and banned for eternity, because of those murderous bastards...

[Strategy]

this curry clown has made me so sick

It is indeed a rather biased site, as I also said (though I put it a bit more mildly). ~;) The historical background he cites is fairly accurate though.

Regarding the Trajanic column:

One of them is considered the basic infantry salute: (From Y. Le Bohec's book "die romische armee") " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute, raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a number of reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently unearthened in Turkey".

This the same gesture as is thought to be represented on the Ahenobarbus relief. The problem with most of these reliefs are that they could just as simply be "soldier fiddles with helmet" as a salute (and several of the reliefs cited tend to have the soldier's hand more behind the helmet than in front). There are no reliefs showing masses of soldiers all doing the same gesture to a senior officer (usually - like in the two reliefs mentioned above) we have a single figure, or several figures - only one of whom is carrying out this "salute".

And the Trajanic column has problems of its own.


The other salute is what the same writer considers as "the basic cavalry salute": In scenes LVII and LXIII two equites are raising the right hand, in a gesture pretty much similar to what we call today "Roman salute".

Now the problem I mention earlier and the reason why any evidence for a "salute" from the column needs to be treated very cautiously is that the column was initially carved so that miniature metal weapons and tools could be attached to the soldiers (I kid you not). None of these tools survive today, of course and in fact the work was never finished (e.g., several battle scenes have soldiers seemingly fighting with their bare knuckles - with no holes drilled for the weapons that were obviously intended to be emplaced). As a result, lots of arms are waving around in the column for no apparent reason.

One of the problems I hate with Trajan's column is that it's sometimes incredibly hard to find the piece of it being referenced (due to different authors using different reference systems). I checked those two scenes as best I could at the moment and didn't find anything that even resembling a salute.

Perhaps you (he) means scene 77, where there is actually a scene with troops raising their hands toward the emperor and one of them could - if you want - look like a Roman salute (see the final adlocutio of the war, scene 77 (http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/4.70.h.jpg))? The problem with that interpretation is just that there are lots of soldiers (all in Civilian clothing btw); some who are not gesturing toward the emperor, and lots others who also are, but in a variety of different ways: with a clenched fist, an open palm facing sideways, etc (one look as if he was supposed to be holding something). Though it would be better to study a plaster cast (since pictures can twist the perspective a bit), I must admit I fail to see anyone doing the so-called equestrian salute, other than perhaps the hand sticking out at the very back with the palm facing the emperor (the two in the foreground raising their hands clearly have their fingers curled).

While on the subject of the Trajanic column, it is quite astounding the number of adlocutios, parades, and army addresses makes on that column - both to soldiers and civilians, without the appearance of anything even resembling a salute (see, e.g., Trajan addressing officers (http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/4.75.h.jpg), scene 137, and Trajan addresses army (http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/1.79.h.jpg), scene 75). Again, characters raising their right hand (in one form or the other - including some that could be interpreted as the "cavalry salute", if you wanted) on the column are rarely soldiers, but rather civilians including Dacians (both Romanized civilians and surrendered soldiers).

Personally, I rather think Le Bohec sees what he wants to see in the column. He has been influential though; I know there are several books (including several Osprey volumes) who have followed his theories.


Other writers seem to consider the Mithraic customs introduced in the Roman Army during those times - the "adoratio" (kissing the fingertips of the
right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).

Obviously, this is a possibility. As long as one also recognizes that any such connection is based on pure speculation, with no evidence to support it.

Sorry for the length of my reply; I fear I tend to overreact when I read "accepted history" based on speculation. Rather silly really; like many other "historical facts", this one has entered public knowledge to stay, and there is not really a lot to be done about it.

Will go back to work on Imperium now, and try to limit my rants on this subject (Di Canio has a lot to answer for) in the future. ~;)

[Kraxis]

Sorry for going back a while, but since it was addressed to me I think I have the right.


No NO NO NO~!!! That's completely different. That's what every military does today even. That's today salute. The Nazi one i not related.

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it. Only the the leader's and generals would do it. And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it. No one else had it. How do you explain that?
Now where did this come from? Did you read my post?
Strategy mentioned and showed us a possible representative of the current salute in one of its oldest forms. I was then intrigued and basically asked if the roman 'infantry' salute (as it has so nicely been named here) was possibly the ancestor of the current salute, as opposed to the knightly introduction.
Me = ~:confused:

[Shadow]

pardon? ~:confused:

It's just like what Gregoshi said

What I mean here I that we are now unsure whether the salute come from the roman or the American socialists.

In the first place I thought it is from the American socialists but after reading all those post I thought I was wrong but now it seems that there are evidence showing that the salute is from the American socialists and not the roman.

[Rosacrux redux]

Not American socialists, Shadow, the salute was a common practice in Catholic schools (I wouldn't call catholics "socialist", would you?) in the beginning and later in most US schools. Until the rise of the Nazis, all US kids saluted the flag that way and everybody thought of it as "normal". After that... anything reminding the Nazis had to be banned, so the salute stopped.

That rex curry character is probably a right wing fanatic with very strong anti-socialist sentiments, so he is trying to unload this to the socialists, through a weird socialist conspiracy to take over the US... this is not true, I am afraid.

[Rosacrux redux]

Strategy, you are right, of course. Interpretation of the various gestures depicted on the Trajan column are varied. It's Le Bohec's suggestion of this, and I can't support or reject it.

Next time I go to Rome I'll actually examine the parts of the column (if accessible from close...) because last time I was there I was definitely not trying to find evidence of a straight arm salute...

And since we don't have any specific mentioning of it in the ancient sources, it is rather difficult to understand where it comes from.

What seems rather established is that it was used within the catholic church alot... that could (and probably has) lead to the strengthening of the "roman origins" of it, since The Roman Catholic church traces it's existence in Rome and the pontifex maximus was the emperor before the Popes entered the scene.

Makes sense too... maybe those Hollyweird producers who first adopted it thought "hey, the Roman Catholics do it, the Romans would've too"

oh, I am confused.

[Shadow]

oh, I am confused.

Same here :dizzy2:

But I kind of agree with what Strategy said.

[Kraxis]

Not American socialists, Shadow, the salute was a common practice in Catholic schools (I wouldn't call catholics "socialist", would you?) in the beginning and later in most US schools. Until the rise of the Nazis, all US kids saluted the flag that way and everybody thought of it as "normal". After that... anything reminding the Nazis had to be banned, so the salute stopped.
Well, all this depends...
It depends on where in the world you are today. A socialist is not the same thing all over the world, the most marked difference is the socialist in America (basically a communist) and that of western Europe (where he is more of a leftwing democrat).
So if Shadow is from any western European country (since I can't see it in your profile I have to guess) then don't fall so hard on the socialist term. We have many many socialists in western Europe that are not anywhere near communists. Denmark for instance is by many standards almost all socialists (which tends to horrify americans when you say it).

[Rosacrux redux]

Hmmm... I tend to believe this is the topic of Confusion (with a capital "C")

Kraxis, you lost me. I was not referring to the term (which, as you say, is interpreted differently according to nationality and/or political leanings - you know that most Republicans in the states call Clinton a... socialist?) but to the notion that this gesture was originated from anything like socialists.

Or did I get you wrong?

Or have we all lost it?

Darn... did I mention that since December 26th I am a married man? A heroic woman has undertaken with great courage the vicious task to tame this rough beast

[Shadow]

So if Shadow is from any western European country (since I can't see it in your profile I have to guess) then don't fall so hard on the socialist term.


Thanks Kraxis, I am from the South-East Asia, Singapore.

[Gregoshi]

Darn... did I mention that since December 26th I am a married man? A heroic woman has undertaken with great courage the vicious task to tame this rough beast
Congratulations Rosacrux! I didn't know. If your wife is the typical female, this thread will not be the last time you are confused about what was said. :laugh4:

Back to the salute, I wonder if there is something "universal" about the straight-armed salute leading it to be adopted independently by different people at different times. Though the connection Rosacrux mentions between Catholics using it and Rome is a logical link. Anyone knowledgable on ancient salutes in other parts to the world?

[Rosacrux redux]

Congratulations Rosacrux! I didn't know. If your wife is the typical female, this thread will not be the last time you are confused about what was said. :laugh4:


Thank you Gregoshi!

Oh, a task I was never brave, or curageous enough to uphold, was understanding women :dizzy2: . I've learned to live with them, but seized trying to understand them (because that's precisely what they aim for, confuse us and make us work hard to understand them... when - I suspect - there's really nothing to understand... ~;) )

She is typical in that account (and in the shopping thing as well... we've hit London in our little honeymoon trip and she ravaged Harrods, Selfridges and Harvey Nichols ~:eek: ) but atypical in most others... and she has Job's patience as well ~D

Back to our regular progr... err, topic

[Kraxis]

Hmmm... I tend to believe this is the topic of Confusion (with a capital "C")

Kraxis, you lost me. I was not referring to the term (which, as you say, is interpreted differently according to nationality and/or political leanings - you know that most Republicans in the states call Clinton a... socialist?) but to the notion that this gesture was originated from anything like socialists.

Or did I get you wrong?
I'm not certain actually... :dizzy2:
Well, let me clarify what I wanted to say.
I meant that if Shadow had any similar idea of socialists as I do, then it is far from mutually exclusive that catholics could be socialists. In fact when we talk about the 1850's in America then all those small communities have many more ties with socialism than with the current capitalism, with little point in talking about traditional views of religion.
Thus Shadow could have meant that those catholics were also the socialists as they had plenty in common back then. But lets not get into such a marginal issue. ~:cool:


Or have we all lost it?
Quite likely!


Darn... did I mention that since December 26th I am a married man? A heroic woman has undertaken with great courage the vicious task to tame this rough beast
Wow... congratulations!
So you still have fun each day I guess, or rather several times each day. ~D Good luck... And btw, what all the great thinkers have agreed on is that women are the greatest mystery on Earth. So don't feel bad if you don't, the rest of us don't either. ~:cheers:

[Strategy]

Next time I go to Rome I'll actually examine the parts of the column (if accessible from close...) because last time I was there I was definitely not trying to find evidence of a straight arm salute...

It's almost impossible to get a close look at it these days, but there are several museums that have quite good plaster casts of parts of the column (in some cases, the casts are better than the original, since the casts were taken in the 1800s and have been preserved from the erosion that is slowly destroying the original today :cry:). The Victoria and Albert Museum in London has one of the best casts; but I think there are also copies at the Louvre and other of the big museums around the world (also in one of the Museums in Rome, of course - can't remember which, though).


Back to the salute, I wonder if there is something "universal" about the straight-armed salute leading it to be adopted independently by different people at different times.

An outstretched open right hand is a fairly universal human signal to indicate "look, I'm unarmed, I come in peace". Generally, I'd think its not too far from such a gesture (which, e.g., the "doffing of the helmet" thing also represents) to an outright usage as a salute. So I would suggest that there is.

And congrats, Rosacrux. As someone said: A man gives many question marks, a woman is a whole mystery. ~D

[Shadow]

talking about woman is a whole mystery do you guys have anyway of getting a woman you love to be your gf. ~;)

[Byzantine Prince]

Lol, why are you guys dissing women? Women are the same as men, except more delicate and with more finece. If you don't understand women then you should pretend you're gay for a little and you'll see it's not really that different.

[Gregoshi]

That ploy doesn't work when you are married to them BP. And we're only "dissing" women in a playful way, otherwise we wouldn't be married to them. Just as men have issues with women, women have their share of issues with men - some as simple as the classic battle of putting the toilet seat up/down. If it weren't for these issues, comedians would lose 1/3 of their material. :laugh4:

Shadow, just be yourself.

[Rosacrux redux]

Oh, BP, when you grow up a bit you'll understand that women and men are from two completely different planets. When you live for a while with one, you'll establish that notion. And when you decide to marry her, you've managed to live with it.

Shadow, a woman you love has to like you for what you are, a woman you just like to boink you should let see in you whatever pleases her.

Meaning, if this is serious, take Gregoshi's advice and just be yourself. If it ain't... just be what she likes the most.

[Shadow]

Thanks for the advice guys but it’s not me who’s having this problem but a buddy of mine.

He is really serious with this girl but it seems that she don’t think much about him. She doesn’t reply his sms and can’t find a common topic to start a talk with her it just like he is not even in her point of vision.

[Byzantine Prince]

WOW, this has gone really off topic.

I don't think men and women are really that different. Now this is interly different when one party is just being difficult. The tiolet seat thing has a very easy solution, just pee sitting down. You can get used to it. You don't even have to worry about splashing pee all over and then having the whole washroom smelling like pee.

[Colovion]

One awesome thing that I loved about Hitler and his boondoggle he had in the 30's and early 40's was his big parties he would throw and all the soldier would march around in perfect step. It's quite the sight to behold, though I'd much rather be watching Roman or any other Ancient civilization (even Medieval) drill with their equipment on... but it's something to ponder.

[Kraxis]

One awesome thing that I loved about Hitler and his boondoggle he had in the 30's and early 40's was his big parties he would throw and all the soldier would march around in perfect step. It's quite the sight to behold, though I'd much rather be watching Roman or any other Ancient civilization (even Medieval) drill with their equipment on... but it's something to ponder.
Indeed... I always found the footage of the soldiers marching down the steps to be rather awesome. A whole line of men suddenly dropping a step down, then the next, then the next and so on. Suddenly it was like a wave. Nice.

And BP, we are different. Women are complex, men are not. Women are used to the complexity, we are not. Thus comes the problems. Women might think (and this is one of many such possibilities) "Why doesn't he understand what I'm meaning" when she has in fact only been giving small hints at it, basically she asks us to read her mind. Men on the other hand can't see it at all, and we most certainly don't understand why they think we could do that. Men are pragmatic, while women often are not. So we focus right ahead, but can't see the surrounding areas (the reason why men don't get bothered with noise, theradion and TV as you read while playing computer). Women see it all and get bothered real fast by distractions (so you see there are positives and negatives with it).
And listening to the girls... Doesn't work on getting to understand them. I used much of my teens as the guy that the girls used for reference, the one that got all the secrets and so on. I still don't get them despite the fact that I should know them better than most girls do themselves. I just don't have the right background to actually get into their heads.
Of course I knew which strings to play on to get closer and all that (you do learn things from them), but did I understand their ways? No... I understood what they did but not why and that is a major difference.

[Shadow]

So this means women are a complex bunch which takes experience to know how to deal with. :book:

Now let’s get back to the topic at hand.