Time commanders new series success or faliure?

[bones58]

i think a complete success.
Richard Hammond:very good
Experts:good if a little over-dramatic.
Set:improvment
Battle:successful and unlike series 1 all the units you can get in rome:total war

What do you think?

[Wishazu]

I was very impressed with the show as a whole. but i was a bit disappointed that they dont get to learn about their own or the enemies units, the whole emphasis seems to be on just getting in there and seeing what happens. The whole skirmish thing was the best new thing

[jimmy]

good nice pace to it the vicars were mean SOB especialy the general. :charge: enjoyed it but it is the first one in the series lets see how it goes.?

[Westland]

They give the team more time to practise (skirmish before battle) and to think (2 pauses during battle). It really helped them to stick to their plan and not get overwhelmed (sp?)

[The_Emperor]

I think they learned a lot from the first series and how awful contestants were on it.

At any rate those Vicars were brutal... I got a phone call from my Mother who was watching the show, she's also a vicar and thought they did very well.

Don't mess with the clergy! ~D

[Wishazu]

Especially when they have 3 roman legions to back em up

[ShellShock]

Yup, this is much better than the first series. The producers have learnt from their mistakes.

I expect RTW will get more sales as a result. Nice timing - it is now on the shelves, so anyone watching tonight can go into their local shop and buy it tomorrow.

Do you remember the frustration after watching the first series of Time Commanders and still having to wait to play it yourself?

[Kraxis]

How I would love to be able to watch BBC2... This sounds great. I loved the first series, undoubtedly I would drool over this.

[Throb]

Yeah saw it too, was better than the 1st series at least they got a bettre presenter than that Eddie Mare.

Could do with expalining the units though, a brief mention of what they like.

[Jace11]

thought it was aweful, turned it off after the skirmish...

Hammond was dreadful, his contribution was "ohh arrows" or "you got pasted"

It degenerated into split screen choas after 10 minutes, lots of shouting...

In the original you got a better picture of the communication and events as they happened.

Eddie was better too, more original, more cutting with his criticism and managed to remain calm unlike hammond...

[Chelifer]

Where do you guys watch the show?
Is it BBC Four?

[Jochi Khan]

BBC 2 Sunday 7.15pm gmt.

The next episode is in two weeks time... 30th January.

Jochi

[Herakleitos]

I did enjoy the show (haven't seen any episode of the first series unfortunately), but a better view of the entire battle (i.e. how many of which units on both sides?) would be nice - I'm just not a big fan of shouting vicars...

[Smaug-V]

"Eddie was better too, more original, more cutting with his criticism "

Eddie Maire was about as witty as the current president of the united states.

[Wishazu]

They`ll probably refine things as the series goes on. afterall they changed the format of the show half way through the last series

[frogbeastegg]

I thought it was mostly an improvement. I prefer to the new host to the old one, and the lack of the "Victory imminent" thingy is nice. Shame about those darned klaxons ...

Those vicars were scary; love thine enemy indeed. Host: "One of them is saying 'Don't kill them; they're women!'. I can't repeat what the other guy said they were."

We can definitely say for certain that TC does not have the team fighting against RTW's AI. I doubted it in the first series. If RTW's AI fought like TC's enemy armies then there would be very little complaining about how dumb it is.

[lanky316]

"Eddie was better too, more original, more cutting with his criticism "

Eddie Maire was about as witty as the current president of the united states.

I've always found the current US president hilarious actually... ~D

[Epistolary Richard]

Last season they looked like they were tweaking the show evey week. They only introduced the top-down general's table computer map in the last episode.

All-in-all I thought it was an improvement.

Format
- Liked the meeting engagement, gives the team a chance to get to grips with it all
- The pauses are good, would be nice if the experts could take advantage of them to point out particular critical points in the battle or show an action replay
- Personally not too bothered about losing the explanation of the units, but it would not have been so important for this battle – largely generic Romans vs largely generic Germans – but would be needed for more exotic factions.
- Not so keen about the experts picking the generals, I want to see a team at its best, I don’t want to see a psychological study of conflicts in power status
- Yes definitely agree would be nice to have a better view of the entire battle, we had shots of entire cavalry units being chopped down by axemen then a shot of the team saying they were doing rather well and it was all going to plan. The experts were doing some of this but not enough – they just mentioned the couple of units that were getting wasted at the back
- Experts were a bit over-dramatic, but that’s just comedy.

Episode
- Surprised to see the ‘fantasy’ German phalanx and wailing women, it provoked a virulent reaction from one of my friends who knows about such things.
- I missed the first few minutes so can someone tell me whether there were victory conditions or something? It seemed that once they’d taken the Spear warbands all the Germans who’d been munching on their rear just disappeared.
- Similarly, did they have to take one of the two paths? I’m wondering why they didn’t just plough straight through the forest. Or indeed why did they move at all? Why couldn’t they wait for the Germans to come to them?
- Was there a bit of model confusion with the Roman cavalry? I thought they were supposed to be unarmoured javalineers, but from what I could see they looked like they were wearing chainmail.

Team
- Same old medieval sensibilities when it came to cavalry, thinking they can ride down blocks of infantry.
- Command structure was again abysmal. I swear, a team actually has a tougher time fighting a battle than a single player. The shouty guy was a nightmare – talking over people, not listening them, micromanaging – I barely even saw the other general. It was my experience in the first season that the generals who did best were the ones that stayed behind their table and kept relatively quiet. They let the captains deal with the unit-level stuff, while they only acted as an extra pair of eyes for the captains and dealt with any battle plan changes. It’s when the battle’s getting away from them that they come forward and start acting like captains. This guy was striding around on the floor with the captains and bellowing to urge his soldiers on. I mean, they’re computer sprites, they can’t hear you! And then he gets milk & cookies from the experts for “imposing” his plan on the others and getting his cavalry killed because they were most likely Germans anyway…

But as I say, format etc.-wise better than last season. Just wish they had contestants who had some idea of ancient warfare. Still, didn’t I hear that The Battle of Stamford Bridge was coming up?

[Myrddraal]

I prefered it too, for all the reasons given, though I think I prefered the old presenter.

[MacBeth]

I loved the first series, I found it's amateurishness appealing.

Last nights episode just seemed to be - well I suppose contrived. Don't think we are going to see many loosers in this series.

[Epistolary Richard]

I've always found the current US president hilarious actually... ~D

You have to laugh or you'd cry.


Don't think we are going to see many losers in this series.

Oh, I think we'll see plenty of losers...

[Mikeus Caesar]

TC does not have the team fighting against RTW's AI.

I also noticed that. Why can't we have the same AI as them? We're effectively playing the same game. Or would decent proper AI be hard for all those damn NCG's out there?


Don't think we are going to see many loosers in this series.

The vicars did in effect lose, from what i could see. Due to the fact that they were giving appalling views of the battle, it looked like they just about made it through alive, more by luck than anything. In reality, if they had managed to make it through like that, then the rest of the germans would have kept following them, slowly killing them all off.

[ShellShock]

I also noticed that. Why can't we have the same AI as them? We're effectively playing the same game. Or would decent proper AI be hard for all those damn NCG's out there?

If you want to play against similar opponents as used in Time Commanders, then you need to play RTW online; in both cases the opponents are human.

Or does anyone still believe that the Time Commanders are "playing against the computer"?

[Lord Preston]

did anyone else notace at the end the expert going
"now the Roman legions with start to saw through the german spearmen" but when watching the game the only bodies were Roman from being stabed by pikes.
eventually they flanked them but lost so many men from the frontal charge.

blame the expert

[Lord Preston]

i prefer this version of the show, i still think it would be better to have a team on team approach. 2v2 a commander and a captain like it is now with the historic battles.

presenter i prefer, but im used to him from Top Gear and other programs, that eddie just got on my nerves.

the "you.......................................
......
.........
are a general" bit is rubbish, Who want to be a millionare rip off with none of the rewards.

They should show the field and units when the experts talk about the mission, its boring watching two historians talking

[Tricky Lady]

It is really great that BBC2's on cable here in Belgium, so TC episode 1 is safely taperecorded... :cool2:

[Epistolary Richard]

Or does anyone still believe that the Time Commanders are "playing against the computer"?


Not I, did you see that moment where the German cavalry galloped around one of the engaged Roman rearguard and smashed into them from behind? The way it was done was undeniably human.


did anyone else notace at the end the expert going
"now the Roman legions with start to saw through the german spearmen" but when watching the game the only bodies were Roman from being stabed by pikes.
eventually they flanked them but lost so many men from the frontal charge.


Well, that's the fantasy uber-German phalanx for you. Also note the pitiful impact of the pila - a whole batch hit a German unit, a few of them jerk back and only about one of them is killed.

[StuartMaher]

Does anyome know if it is repeated as I did no know they had started the 2nd series :-(

Stu

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

Not I, did you see that moment where the German cavalry galloped around one of the engaged Roman rearguard and smashed into them from behind? The way it was done was undeniably human.

Well, that's the fantasy uber-German phalanx for you. Also note the pitiful impact of the pila - a whole batch hit a German unit, a few of them jerk back and only about one of them is killed.

I agree with most of the comments in this thread. Timecommanders seems to be a lot better this time, and I also am pretty certain that human players are controlling the opponents.

In Nusbacher's defence the Roman infantry ought to have chainsawed through them: it's the game that's at fault. Pila are really ineffective unless they are given the armour piercing bonus, in which case they work just fine.

[Kraxis]

Pila are really ineffective unless they are given the armour piercing bonus, in which case they work just fine.
Interesting... But how does one add AP to one that has it already?

[LordKhaine]

Bugger... I didn't realise there was another series starting :embarassed: . At least it's on a Sunday this time, so I'll get to see it next week! ~:)

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

Interesting... But how does one add AP to one that has it already?

Sorry... winces. You're right of course. I was thinking of the peltasts and some of the archers I think. As far as I remember they didn't all have this bonus originally.

[Kraxis]

Sorry... winces. You're right of course. I was thinking of the peltasts and some of the archers I think. As far as I remember they didn't all have this bonus originally.
Rather, weaken the archers, buff up the javelins (no AP) and you should be set up pretty nice. The pilum would be obviously better against armoured foes but not noticeable against unarmoured foes.

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

Thanks for the advice, Kraxis. It's much appreciated. I'd better go before I'm accused of hijacking this thread. Sorry to anyone hoping to read about Timecommanders. I did start off discussing that ~:)

[Butcher]

Did any of you see it last night? had the Battle of Stamford Bridge as it's theme, they are either starting to redo medieval or have especially created the skins for it!
They had huscarles, berserkers etc. Looked quite interesting, although it seemed that they didn't all ahve 'completed' animations yet.

[Fridge]

Did see it last night and thought it was awful. Partly due to my prejudices - could you have got a more plummy voiced, middle England, jolly hockey-sticks family if they tried? And those kids... I completely understand that getting the young'uns on there might extend the audience, and the family viewing Sunday night thing probably makes a lot of sense, but personally.... nah.

Also, the battle. Rubbish. I just didn't think there was a lot of scope for tactics, and as for the troops - some token archers, a king and his cavalry bodyguard and two - count 'em! - two types of infantry. No deployment, just get over the bridge as fast as possible and don't let the enemy settle... Now while that's no doubt the right thing to do, and historically spot on, it seemed to me like they'd dumbed the battle down, possibly to accomodate the two ten year olds. Again, I'm not saying that's the 'wrong' thing to do, just didn't fancy it myself.

That's the first one I've seen of the new series, and I wasn't impressed, but that's because of this one battle, not the format, and I don't even mind Hammond...

[lanky316]

Agreed, I'm beginning to think it'll be too easy this series. Still hearing Nus say "He was the bling bling Viking" made the kids bareable...

[Butcher]

Oh I agree, i thought the battle was far too easy. But then if people got crushed every week then would it make as good viewing (not from our persepctive, i am sure we would get an evil satisfaction from it!) for the general public?
Anyway, what i thought was interesting was the new models/skins. DOes anyone know if they were created especially or not?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

The only good thing about it is Nusbacher and Mike loades swinging his battle axe at the viewer during last nights episode. The battles ate too quick man, and i liked the voice over in season 1 but they choose to get rid of it and the pausing during the battle just ruins it for me! The battles so far have been really easy, i just hope next week the team at Hydaspes fights as the Indian army and try to see them defend against Alexander's army.

[MacBeth]

I stand by my previous post - contrived crap for kids.

[Prodigal]

I wanna know what PC's they're using, I watched a show yesterday & wondered where the 1 frame a minute graphics were, & why I couldn't hear any CPU implosion warning sounds. :furious3:

[Fridge]

One thing I really noticed last night was all that talk about using archers to pin the enemy, followed by lovely shots of them loosing off volleys into countless massive melee scrums, the camera following the flight until... it cunningly cut away seconds before you saw half a friendly unit disappear under the hail of pointy sticks.

Also - thousands of people charging across a bridge and not one soldier bravely throwing himself in the river for the sake of the unit? Thpffft.

[Epistolary Richard]

I agree we've lost something of the tactical overview of the battle, which I found really interesting, in place of more focus on the contestants (which I imagine the production company thought would appeal to a wider demographic than just RTW players).

As for the battle itself, it was a bit like the Battle of Stamford Bridge as fought at CentreParcs ~D

For all this talk of the indomitable shield-wall that was the standard battle-plan of the period, we never saw one being formed on either side, but I doubt there were any mods to the game engine itself to try and replicate it. And the Norwegians seemed more hell-bent on throwing their troops in as soon as they could rather than forming up as an army as they did historically.

No mention of the Norwegians forgetting to bring their armour either!

[Fridge]

And, bearing in mind the programme is - I'm assuming - supposed to be at least a little educational, there seemed to be very little mention of what happened next week; ie, Hastings, Harold's death and the Norman invasion.

Maybe it would have upset little Mash, knowing that no matter he did, Harold was still going to get it in the eye a week on Tuesday.

In fact, have they done Hastings before? Seems like it would be an interesting one to do, with a very real possibility of rewriting history...

[RJV]

I'm expecting that one (Hastings) to be later in the series - having built it up in some of the commentary last night, it seems like a logical thing to do, especially as they are obviously trying to wring a few more viewers out of it.

To be fair to Lion TV (or whoever it is that holds the purse strings), if you ask people whether they'd want Stamford Bridge or Gaugamela, then we know where the votes will go, regardless of how 'interesting' the battle would be.


And a little aside - has anyone spotted that Aryeh looks like he's been at the mince pies over the holiday period? Celebrity status seems to be transferring itself into extra pounds round the old tummy...

Cheers,

Rob.

[Fridge]

To be fair to Lion TV (or whoever it is that holds the purse strings), if you ask people whether they'd want Stamford Bridge or Gaugamela, then we know where the votes will go, regardless of how 'interesting' the battle would be.

Let's be honest, the answer would probably be along the lines of, "Guagamela at Stamford Bridge? He'd be good cover for Lamps, but why aren't we looking for another centre-half? Innit. Anyway, I heard he'd already been linked with Sir Alex, The Great twat."

[bones58]

I thought this episode was poor.I am 14 but having kids on the show did not appeal to me... but it has to be said i was cringing with jealousy.Anyway we saw it last series the first few episodes were continually getting chopped and changed so dont dispair!

[mambaman]

sadly missed Stamford Bridge but saw last weeks-much better all round really

As for the Bishops-i am an ex Tank Commander and i have to say that the General (the vocal one) was excellent-just the mettle that would be needed in real battle i assure you...there are times for Generals to be quiet and times for them to grip the situation-the scenario demanded the latter

Interesting that they are now doing battles that verge on the mediaeval.....

[AquaLurker]

Is there a way where I can get to watch the show in asia pacific :bow: , the other side of the earth... ~:handball: You peeps are so lucky.

[Butcher]

Let's be honest, the answer would probably be along the lines of, "Guagamela at Stamford Bridge? He'd be good cover for Lamps, but why aren't we looking for another centre-half? Innit. Anyway, I heard he'd already been linked with Sir Alex, The Great twat."

Now that's just genius! ~:)

[The Stranger]

on wich channel is this show/program

[Placid Tramp]

I've been following a thread in www.wargamesdirectory.com where a couple of people involved in the show (including nus himself) have made some interesting coments:


"The producers of the second series were initially going to go to the certainly more effective command structure of a single general. I was very keen to keep the deliberately divided command structure. A single general has the opportunity to keep his thoughts to himself. Two generals present opportunities for discussion, potentially encouraging the commanders to discuss their ideas or at least shout them at each other.

I do not by any means consider unified leadership to be the only historically accurate means of command. Many armies were commanded by divided groups of leaders; and even single leaders often had to conduct councils of war to gain consensus for plans. During operations limitations of command and control often meant that independent commanders, rather than a single commander's tactical vision, governed the course of events.

Historical issues are important, but by no means the only consideration. The show is not meant to re-create all aspects of warfare, certainly not authentic means of command and control."
Posted by Nus at 22:12, 23 January 2005 GMT


"The first series had some sort of ban on wargamers as players. The second series did not. I don't imagine the producers would introduce a ban for future series. People who are interested should contact Eliza Barber at Lion Television Scotland."
Posted by Nus at 17:00, 24 January 2005 GMT


"Yep. I am the bloke who controls the big screen in the studio and responsible for capturing all the graphics in the edit.
People are saying that it's too easy this series. The Vikings were meant to be scattered initially, but if the team had dithered and messed up the bridge crossing, they would have found the Vikings all too ready for them. They were a good team. Don't worry though, there are some absolutely hiliarious defeats not too far away."
Posted by Aderm at 11:58, 24 January 2005 GMT


To me that last post sounds encouraging, i'm starting to miss the hilarious deafets of the 1st series.

[Prodigal]

Didn't anyone notice the comment by one of the historians about the General single handedly taking on the entire army? :charge:

[Myrddraal]

I didn't think it was the general, just a lone warrior fought hundreds on the bridge and (apparently) killed loads of them.

[ShadesPanther]

Don't worry though, there are some absolutely hiliarious defeats not too far away."

can't wait ~:D Always funny watching the idiots playing like the Group that took control of Ceaser's army and put all their archers and sligers on a hill a good bit away from the infantry and got run over by the Gallic Cavalry, I was pissed because I didn't see the Slingers fire.


At the end they mentioned the reinforcements coming and you could see them. I think the person playing the vikings did take it easy and slowly to give them some sort of a chance.

[Epistolary Richard]

I didn't think it was the general, just a lone warrior fought hundreds on the bridge and (apparently) killed loads of them.

It was a lone beserker who held the bridge while the Norwegians gathered their forces and formed their shield wall. Accounts tell that he killed about forty of Harold's men before, as the show said, being stabbed by a Saxon who floated underneath the bridge in a tub.

:shocked2::shocked2::skull::skull::klingon::skull::skull::shocked2::shocked2:

[Prodigal]

No it wasn't that reference, it was the general shown on the main display, he'd got ahead of the infantry & actually charged the enemy. Also the presenter warned against having multiple units occupying the same space, as they'd "get tangled up".

Sounds like they've been given free copies of RTW & have been using them ~;)

[RJV]

No it wasn't that reference, it was the general shown on the main display, he'd got ahead of the infantry & actually charged the enemy. Also the presenter warned against having multiple units occupying the same space, as they'd "get tangled up".

Sounds like they've been given free copies of RTW & have been using them ~;)

From another forum (wargamesdirectory I think it is called) there is a guy on there who works on TC ( see post a few posts up from this one for more quotes from there and a link) - he said the contestants were all given MTW to practice on before going on the show (RTW hadn't been released at the time).

Cheers,

Rob.

[Prodigal]

That's a shame I was hoping it was slip ups, was looking forward to "Get off the bridge fast! That entire units going to drop....Ohh too late"

[Smaug-V]

I totally agree that children should not be allowed on the show. If I hear the words "Mash" and "Berserkers" in the same sentence again im going to set fire to myself. I think the best episodes (going from series 1) are where they get a team of Insurance Salesmen/Human Resources Directors/Policemen who THINK they know what they are doing but actually suck, and they get obliterated. If they got anyone whose played RTW for a decent amount of time on the show theyd have to make it a LOT harder, And it might move a bit too fast for non-RTW players to keep up with. Might be interesting to see the 2 experts play against each other with equal odds. My money's on Nusbacher.

[Rodafowa]

From another forum (wargamesdirectory I think it is called) there is a guy on there who works on TC ( see post a few posts up from this one for more quotes from there and a link) - he said the contestants were all given MTW to practice on before going on the show (RTW hadn't been released at the time).
That comes as no surprise at all. Both teams so far sounded like they were playing the game as opposed to fighting the battle, if you know what I mean.

My biggest gripe with the series so far is that it's just been boring. The battles have been too simple, we've gone from not enough help being given to far too much and there was no dramatic tension because in neither case did the team ever remotely look like losing.

There are other little niggles with the presentation, but if the battles were more challenging I'm sure they wouldn't bother me as much. The first series improved as it went on, with problems from the first few shows corrected later, and the comments made about upcoming defeats make me hopeful the same will happen again here.

[_Aetius_]

I don think this series is better at all, the change of presenter is a negative form the start, the split screen camera views are annoying, i want to see the battle not see a tiny square of it and see the contestants shouting on another, theyve made it far to easy, stamford bridge was the most boring battle in all of time commaders history even worse than chalons in the first series were the most annoying general ever gave the most bizarre orders "defend the hill" i think we all remember that catastrophe lol.

Im glad the contestants arent incompetant idiots, but having kids on it is just plain annoying, if i hear the word beserker one more time!!!!! ~:)

I just dont see why they changed it so much, if its not broke dont fix it and all that, the 1st series needed tweaks not a major overhaul, also the whole show seems rushed somehow, the after battle analysis is now about 3 seconds long, i think time commanders has fallen victim to trying to please to many people at once in to many overly elaborate ways.

Im not looking forward to the next battle, *fingers crossed* please! dont be battle of hastings please!!!!!

[Placid Tramp]

Just in case you fancy showing them how it should be done, a post of the wargamesdirectory.com forum from Eliza of Lion Tv:


"Currently Lion Tv has not heard about a commission for a third series. However, if you are interested in applying (just incase it is commissioned) send an email with your name and contact details to TCPlayers@liontv.co.uk

As for what we look for. For the first series, the contestants did not have any experience with the game, or any wargames in general. That changed this series. There are some people in the eight programmes who do have quite a bit of knowledge of historical battles, and some who have a lot of gaming experience. There are also some that have neither. Basically, now there are now no restrictions (except an age one).

And I only have one tip: When filling out your application... don't write it in Klingon. It's not big, it's not funny, and I can't read it!

I hope you all enjoy this series and good luck if you decide to apply in the future."
Eliza

[Smaug-V]

Klingon? Is she on drugs?

[_Aetius_]

She means dont write utter BS.

[Tyburn JIG]

Klingon? Is she on drugs?

I reckon she means the horrendous "l33T" phenomenon that has infested the web....but who am i too pretend i know her mind? ~:handball:

--EDIT--

On a further note,i prefer the new TC format....but think the contestants are let off really easy....whoever was controlling the enemy forces on the 2 episodes ive seen held back too the max!

[Chelifer]

Maybe this one?
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/klingon.htm

[Jace11]

Ah well, I liked the first series but I guess the new generation wants more shouting, less lecturing, "24" style split screen actions scenes and a less intellectual presenter that talks in sound bites etc...

It seems they are aiming it more at younger "playstation" types. The less serious gamer.. But that has sacrificed the thing that made the show so watchable for people like us...

In the same way paintball gameshows fail, it now looks far more exciting to be there than to watch it from your TV screen. The old set was "brighter", the presenter "older" and the action slower, but it was deliberate and well explained. More coverage was given to the battle, maneuvers, tactics, troops etc, informative voice overs too....
What all these things did was give the viewer the ability to clearly understand what was happening on the battlefield. You could see the overall battle, "The Big Picture" quite easily...
The whole package just seemed better, not as lavish, or flashy as series 2 but it conveyed the events to the viewer better...

This clarity has been sacrificed to make it a bit more trendy and seemingly accessable for under 5's. The problem is, when you are doing a show about a wargame and a battlefield, the older viewers would rather the experience was focused on the actual war bit, the tactics etc... not snazzy camera work and shouting. And why is soooo dark on set? What did they do with the lights....? Frankly it looks confused... It looks like it was made for Channel 4 not BBC2, maybe. Anyway, we all have the game, and before the end of next week, it will work properly and we can all play it till our eyes bleed.

I doubt I'll bother with any more of this series...

As for the contestants, I can still picture the little bald guy from the army stammering.... "Take the hill" "Take the hill" from series 1. A Classic TV moment, but painful to watch. I can see his face, and hear his little voice.....over and over...

[Smaug-V]

I reckon a lot of what people have said on here is personal preference, but i seriously dont understand how anyone can think Eddie Mair was a good presenter. He didnt say anything helpful and his jokes were woeful. But i agree they seem to have watered it down a bit. They seem to do that to everything these days. Dont get me started on "Aliens Versus Predator".. :furious3:

[bones58]

i missed time commanders last night, was it any good?

[econ21]

i missed time commanders last night, was it any good?

I missed the first 15 minutes, but the rest was quite suprising - it was a battle between Alexander's Macedons and (run by the computer) an elephant-heavy Indian army under Porus. The team were army and initially seemed very good - especially at communicating with each other. However, they lost heavily: they lost their Companions by sending them into the rear of the Indian army without infantry support and then had their phalanxes wiped out by a massed elephant charge from their rear. It was rather embarassing really.

But having faced elephants in RTW, the team have some of my sympathy - the experts said they should have pinned the elephants with their phalanx (as happened historically). But I wonder how that would work in RTW? - elephants seem to just shred heavy infantry.

[Herakleitos]

I was also wandering how they could have won this battle. I guess the best way would have been to try to keep the elefants in place with the phalanxes and pepper them with javelins. Hopefully they will run amok and go through the Indian infantry...

In the mean time you could use your archers to soften up the Indian infantry (or maybe use flames to irritate the elephants some more?) and the horse archers on the left flank to annoy the Indian cavalry. And then at the right time a nice companion-charge in the rear of Porus' army...

It's a shame that we don't get to see a real overview of the battle, but it looked to me that they rushed their cavalry and were too slow in getting their infantry to the battle. They didn't have access to the 'f' and 'r' shortcut keys for the phalanxes I guess.

Nice to see the team lose for a change though! ~D

[Rodafowa]

As soon as they mentioned who the opposing army was going to be, I turned to my wife and said, "if it's true that the team got to practice with Medieval before the series, they're going to get themselves into trouble because they won't have any idea how dangerous elephants can be."

Halfway through the battle, after the elephants had predictably ripped through the team's skirmishers without even slowing down and begun chasing the team's horse archers behind the main phalanx battle-line, I turned to my wife and said, "They'll be absolutely fine, so long as those elephants keep obediently chasing the mounted archers to the edge of the battlefield, the way the team is assuming they will."

A little later, after the elephants had reversed course and charged into the rear of the Macedonian phalanxes with, as the sitcom writers would have it, Hilarious Concequences, I turned to my wife and said, "I told you so."

I take the point on how it's difficult to see how they could have dealt with the elephants, but the battle was lost when they threw their best units away in an overconfident charge against the main body of the Indian army while their phalanxes were still miles away (and then whined in the debrief about how the Companion Cavalry hadn't performed "as well as they'd been led to believe" - you were told they were great. You weren't told they were frigging superhuman). It's particularly unforgivable if they'd actually gotten to play Medieval, where cavalry is even more vulnerable when sent unsupported into a melee.

Still, this was the most enjoyable episode so far this series, for what little that's worth - there were actual tactics involved and everything, although the overfondness for closeups now makes it difficult to keep track of what those tactics actually are.

[The Stranger]

go and look clash of the generals on discovery i thought it was better

[bones58]

was the indian (sp?) skins good looking?

[bones58]

i thought tonghts episode of time commanders was very good but my main complaint was NO TACTICS!! my god i never seen so much luck and stupid commands go right in all my life

[Harald the ROCK]

I saw the first one. It did seem to lack a bit coherence. The priest general just shouted and screamed and the romans ran straight up to that field where they slaughtered the phalanx (which was pretty much given). There was a couple of good flanker moves made by the AI (OR is it AI?). What there seems to be lacking on the human side is tactics.

[HolsteinCow]

What channel is this on? I've always wanted to watch a British game show from the western hemisphere with a satelite network that ceases working when even a small cloud passes over Florida.

[Kaldhore]

Its BBC2 on UK tv.

I really dont think its AI, because I think even the bad AI would have won tonights game. It had to be a human controllers - with some guy stood behind him saying - ok let them take this unit - that unit etc etc.

Tonights game was terrible and they should have lost.

[pyrocryo]

since it isn't available here in indonesia
can anyone direct me to the episode guide/summary/tell-all sites?

[Kaldhore]

Ok....

Yesterdays Fiasco..What can one say. All testosterone and no brains as far as I could see. ALthough the battle was lost historically too....

They should have held back a cav reserve on either flank to look for support v ambush or in case of routs.

Anyone notice that the persians were all using the Parthian skins, and the Byzantines the legionary roman cav, couldnt see what the byz inf was.

The Skirmish was the worst bit imho. Terrible.
I think Nus was embarrased for them.

[Pellinor]

I turned to my wife and said...

I turned to my wife and said...

I turned to my wife and said, "I told you so."

Are the bruises healing well? Any idea when you'll be allowed to move out of the spare room? ~;)

Cheers,

Pell.R.

[Khorak]

I think Nus was embarrased for them.

"Yeah, they're toast."
Turned into the experts phrase of the day with that team didn't it. :D
But then, I hate the Persians, I was happy to see the Byzantines school them.


couldnt see what the byz inf was.
I think it was a new skin. Wasn't anything remarkable though, I think the huscarles are still the only real good new skin seen on the show.

[Epistolary Richard]

I think there was another new skin amongst the Parthian cavalry, something with a blue coat that looked vaguely Hunnish.

They really didn't have to do too much to win that battle. And they didn't even manage that. All they needed to do was stand there and shoot them with their various archers and horse archers. The ambush was a nasty (though enjoyable) surprise - remember the Gaullish ambush in TC1? - but their combat cavalry should have been on either flank anyway. There was no way they were going straight through that ditch.

Equally enjoyable was their inability to realise that their units who were marching back towards their own map edge were in fact running away. Makes me wonder whether these guys have really practised on RTW. They certainly fell foul a couple of times of having their elite HA try and skirmish away from cavalry and then being caught from behind when in fact they'd have probably won by just counter-charging.

I also eagerly await the day when the generals actually act like generals and let the captains handle the micromanagement. Right now you might as well have the generals down at the screens and lose the captains - it would be a lot quicker. The best generals I've seen were in the very first episode of TC1, where they stood behind the table and actually said relatively little because everything was going to plan.

I found the experts particularly unhelpful this time, wonderful ideas such as trying to disengage cavalry from cavalry.

BTW does anyone know if they can a choice as to how the troops are divided between the captains?

[_Aetius_]

I think Dara is easily the most interesting battle thus far in the series, i mean it wasnt obvious despite some awful mistakes early on that the players would lose, infact at times it looked like theyd win, it was very tight.

What I was amazed to see was the Roman cavalry as a whole which isnt what the romans are famed for owning the practically invincable Cataphracts, seemed abit bizarre really.

Overall though I just DONT LIKE the way TC is now it was so much better in the first series with Eddie Mair (sp?) as presenter.

I hope they do a battle like Manzikert soon, im interested to see what a full Byzantine army looks like compared to the roman legions we are more used to seeing.

[Khorak]

God Eddie Mair was the worst damn presenter in any show ever.
"I'm Eddie Mair. My presentation is so flat I'd give a carboard cutout a run for its money."
Thank God for Hammond, who can say a line without making me wish Nusbacher was in a dual presenter/expert role. Wait, think I'm on to something there....


I found the experts particularly unhelpful this time, wonderful ideas such as trying to disengage cavalry from cavalry
What would you suggest? Sticking around to get slaughtered? No, you belt it back to your own lines and if the enemy follow you they can suck down five units of infantry for their trouble as well.
Remember, this isn't the predictable and laughable RTW AI they're playing, there's a human on the other end and they quite obviously fight with a thought to how things would have actually been done as well as giving the team a semblance of a chance (four badly organised idiots? I could murder the whole damn lot of them of my own, as could practically anyone here). They wouldn't have pursued because the main objective of obliterating the attack on their left flank is complete, and following up would (in a wonderful world where the team didn't suck), simply be throwing away forces to the Persian meatgrinder.

[_Aetius_]

As for the contestants, I can still picture the little bald guy from the army stammering.... "Take the hill" "Take the hill" from series 1. A Classic TV moment, but painful to watch. I can see his face, and hear his little voice.....over and over...

I really really disliked that man lol he had that utterly clueless expression on his face that just deserved a slap.

[Fridge]

I just wish they'd give the audience at home a better overview - why should we be restricted to the views the contestants get? A proper overhead radar view occasionally (or even an inset) would give a much better idea of how the whole battle was going - or even a zooomed out general's eye view from the back of the battlefield.

Take Sunday - all those cries of 'they can still win it!' - it would have been nice to have seen <how> they might have won it, then you could laugh even more when they spectacularly failed to do so...

[Orda Khan]

Ok....

Yesterdays Fiasco..What can one say. All testosterone and no brains as far as I could see. ALthough the battle was lost historically too....

They should have held back a cav reserve on either flank to look for support v ambush or in case of routs.

Anyone notice that the persians were all using the Parthian skins, and the Byzantines the legionary roman cav, couldnt see what the byz inf was.

The Skirmish was the worst bit imho. Terrible.
I think Nus was embarrased for them.


There were a few units of Hun Horse Archers among the Persians ~;) Did you notice those guys in their blue robes?

........Orda

[Epistolary Richard]

What would you suggest? Sticking around to get slaughtered? No, you belt it back to your own lines and if the enemy follow you they can suck down five units of infantry for their trouble as well.
Remember, this isn't the predictable and laughable RTW AI they're playing, there's a human on the other end and they quite obviously fight with a thought to how things would have actually been done as well as giving the team a semblance of a chance

Without pinning the enemy cavalry first, as soon as your cavalry turn to run out of the combat they're going to be butchered by their pursuers.

But yes, perhaps the Byzantine player might have let them get away to give the team a chance, but the experts are supposed to be treating it for real. In reality, a horsemen is going to let his opponent turn around and walk away unless there was something else to distract them.

As it was, the team did bring in their infantry to try and pin the enemy and then the experts remarked, oh, that was rather a good idea.


They wouldn't have pursued because the main objective of obliterating the attack on their left flank is complete, and following up would (in a wonderful world where the team didn't suck), simply be throwing away forces to the Persian meatgrinder.

Their main objective would have been the elimination of the Persian cavalry in toto. Without them, the infantry would be useless and the battle would be over. I can't see the Byzantines hanging around, waiting for them to reform.



(four badly organised idiots? I could murder the whole damn lot of them of my own, as could practically anyone here).

Well, yes, but part of that is because there _are_ four of them. I think it's a lot tougher to work effectively as a team rather than effectively as a single player.

[Kaldhore]

"Time" again to ressurect this thread.

Today as with all in this series was an incompetant win. BUT it was sooo funny to see the generals nearly punching it out in the studio. :duel:

A classic moment too from Nus getting on his kness and begging one general to ~:eek: "Please please tell him what to do!!" ~:eek:

http://www.spheretv.com/timecomexperts.jpg

[Divine Wind]

Today was a great example of how theyve made this series far too easy for the contestants.

They did nothing right at all, apart from the planning side, which they did not stick with as the battle started. If it wasnt for the vanilla units they had then it would of been a rout.

But the show was entertaining. As the previous poster said, a very hot headed affair. Perhaps if we gave the contestants weapons they could recreate some battle scenes in the studio ~;)

[Wishazu]

i was utterly convinced they were going to lose right up untill it said "Victory Imminent" i was dumbstruck, as you said they did absolutley nothing right, btw what preofession were they, i only saw the show from the start of the skirmish.

[Divine Wind]

They were described as "computer gamers", who played strategy games.

Didnt see much strategy though!

[Khorak]

I think the problem is the lack of degrees of loss and victory. There should be more emphasis placed on the actual result. In the case of this weeks battle, the team should have been informed that although they technically won the battle, it was entirely pyrrhic. They did not humiliate the Trojan forces at all (themselves maybe), and their own army was devastated to such an extent they're likely to have to sit outside the bloody city for ten years.

There's no strategic emphasis, these guys can have but a single man left on the field who has one arm left but it's still a 'victory' even if they're the invaders or something.

[Duke John]

In the case of this weeks battle, the team should have been informed that although they technically won the battle, it was entirely pyrrhic.
Well, they were being told exactly that. An expert said that even if they knocked politely on the Trojan gate there would be little chance that they would get their princess back. (Did you pass out after the shock of the "You are victorious" message appearing?)

The gamers had a pretty sound tactic, but it was a camping tactic. If they kept moving along the river and went straight for the right flank of the Trojan army then they would have won decisively. Now they just got distracted and weren't able to cope with more than 2 events.

And what was with the lang haired dude constantly watching the monitor of the left captain? We've seen generals standing in the front ignoring the nice overhead map, but this is the first time that a general was forgetting entirely that he was a general. At the end he got better, but in the beginning it was like a coach trying to score on the field.

[Khorak]

Well, they were being told exactly that. An expert said that even if they knocked politely on the Trojan gate there would be little chance that they would get their princess back. (Did you pass out after the shock of the "You are victorious" message appearing?).

Uh....actually I was kind of....um....squishing a bunch of Celts in Civ III. *runs from hordes of Orgers with pitchforks and fire*

[Epistolary Richard]

Perhaps this was their attempt to show us 'strategy gamers' having our heads handed to us and that perhaps it isn't as easy as it looked... nah, we could still thrash them. Bunch of headless chickens.


And what was with the lang haired dude constantly watching the monitor of the left captain? We've seen generals standing in the front ignoring the nice overhead map, but this is the first time that a general was forgetting entirely that he was a general. At the end he got better, but in the beginning it was like a coach trying to score on the field.

Phht, I've yet to see a general worthy of the name. Perhaps the mother in the Battle of Stamford Bridge? :gring:

Nus was very funny though. Couldn't really go wrong with them though, virtually every move they made was a mistake. The 'AI' player must have gone very easy on them. I thought when all those spearmen were charging the rear of the Greek units that it was game over. Only the heroic close quarters ability of their archers and slingers brought it back for them.


But continuing on in the 'WTF game are they playing anyway?' thread it was nice to see a phalanx that actually worked properly and didn't shuffle or rotate or stood there and got butchered.

And *gasp* their chariots were actually effective at running down fleeing troops :confused:. From my experience the chariots should have wheeled in crazy circles around the archer unit, knocking them down by the bushel just to have them get up again and start running.


With this and the appalling spin-doctors at Dara looks like the only way a team is going to lose this season is if they auto-resolve. :biggrin:

[Kaldhore]

Aye I was a bit miffed at how good those chariots were.

Its the reason I get fed up with the Brits and I havent even played the egyptians yet.

[RJV]

Total, utter Numpties this week. The Captains wanted to be Generals and the Generals wanted to be Captains. Didn't stick to the plan, turned the ENTIRE army to have one big-ass exposed flank - which any decent player, and even, please God, the AI - would surely have ploughed headlong into with anything and everything, got totally enveloped in the centre, and STILL won.

It's still an entertaining show - Nus is worth the price of admission alone - but it would be nice if once, just once, they had a challenging battle on there.

Cheers,

Rob.

[Templar Knight]

I still want to see Nus and three other military experts to be in command, now that would be good ~:)

[MacBeth]

I can't believe Nus lectures at Sandhurst any more. The more he hams it up on this show the less credible he becomes.

Dumbed down TC just like RTW.

[Feanor]

I liked the very enthusiastic medieval weapons expert who was on the one with the viking huscarles. He was also on Weapons that made Britain. He should have a five minute slot every episode.

:charge:

[lanky316]

^^^^

Mike Loades, he was on channel 4 on Saturday trying to recreate a realistic jousting tournament, don't know how accurate it was but it wasn't terribly tacky viewing.

[Epistolary Richard]

I rented a video about the Crusades over the weekend, written and narrated by Terry Jones (he of Monty Python fame) and who should turn up but lo and behold Mike Loades!

Bearded and becoiffed he was demonstrating what it was like to be a Turkish horse archer on a mare in heat when you've got a randy Crusader stallion barrelling down on you.
:charge:

[Fridge]

Bearded and becoiffed he was demonstrating what it was like to be a Turkish horse archer on a mare in heat when you've got a randy Crusader stallion barrelling down on you.
:charge:

I'm sorry Mr Richard, you can't leave it like that... What was it like?

[Kaldhore]

^^^^

Mike Loades, he was on channel 4 on Saturday trying to recreate a realistic jousting tournament, don't know how accurate it was but it wasn't terribly tacky viewing.

I watched all but the last 10 mins of that - I thought it was cool.

But who won? the scot?

[lanky316]

I watched all but the last 10 mins of that - I thought it was cool.

But who won? the scot?

Nah, surprisingly it was the American cop who kept injuring himself.

As for last nights TC. The team had some right moves but didn't capitalise, they managed to get the English to break formation but didn't take advantage. I blame the woman who argued over every decision the generals made.

[Khorak]

Yeah, I started off thinking they'd stand no chance. Then they did those feigned retreats and I thought damn, these guys really know their stuff. Finally I watched them not capitalise upon that at all, and instead just hammer the cavalry into the front of the shieldwall constantly, slowly murdering themselves by attrition. At that point I knew they'd lose horribly.

[professorspatula]

That battle of Hastings battle looked great. I want those units in RTW! Come on CA, be generous!

I found it amusing how the 'historical experts' always go into such explicit detail of how the armies at the time fought, looking like complete idiots at the same time. But they mention stuff that is far beyond the scope of the game. Norman Knights on horses throwing their spears and then closing in with swords? No, just spears doing not much at all. Although even the American sounding expert seems to be a bit disillusioned these days.

As to the battle, I thought it was a pretty good display overall, certainly better than the previous contestants I'd seen. One general shouted out some orders regularly, another general didn't know what he was doing (although got a bit better towards the end), and the captains seemed to get on with the task in hand. One of the women was incredibly vocal and I feel sorry for the computer operator who's ears must have ached after her shrieks battered his eardrums constantly, but at least she was in continous communication and giving out orders and actually sounded pretty knowledgeable.

Everything went wrong, but it's hard to be critical of the team. What can they see? Hardly a thing. Without the luxury of controlling the camera and the battlefield for yourself, it must be a nightmare to work out what is going on. It doesn't help there are 3 levels of communication before anything gets done: General > Captain > Computer operator/geek > computer. I'm pretty sure those chaps on the computers aren't without blame. Tell the cavalry to go wide and clear of the enemy and the idiot has them bash into the sides of the enemy spearmen. Happens in every battle. The cretinous presenter doesn't help with his incessant 'come on just get stuck in, this is boring' type comments. I'm hoping one of the contestants will take one of those replica spears the historical experts prance around with, go up to the presenter, and shove it where the sun don't shine.

All in all, a bit of a rubbish TV show. I wonder if the primary/secondary weapon stat bug is in that show and the stamina bug? And I'm pretty sure the morale is considerably higher on the show than we get too.

[Lord of the Isles]

The bit I liked in this week's show was one of the two "questions to the experts" that they are allowed every week. "Can the archers and crossbowmen fire over the heads of friendly troops or must they have a direct line of sight" asked one of the contestants. He was told they could both fire either way and I thought: the RTW engine I know is going to kill a lot of your own troops if you try to fire over them. But I can't remember if that happened in the battle: anyone else notice?

[Kaldhore]

Missed it this week :/ *sigh*

[Epistolary Richard]

I have a few comments on this week's show but my first one is:

HAROLD GODWINSON FIGHTING ON HORSEBACK??????

AAAAAARGH!!!!!!!


Thanks I just needed to get that off my chest. ~D

[lanky316]

I have a few comments on this week's show but my first one is:

HAROLD GODWINSON FIGHTING ON HORSEBACK??????

AAAAAARGH!!!!!!!


Thanks I just needed to get that off my chest. ~D

#On a related subject I found it hilarious when the team charged that unit of cavalry and celebrated killing Harold before later seeing William hacked to death at his own personal hands. ~D

[Dude_uk]

The bit I liked in this week's show was one of the two "questions to the experts" that they are allowed every week. "Can the archers and crossbowmen fire over the heads of friendly troops or must they have a direct line of sight" asked one of the contestants. He was told they could both fire either way and I thought: the RTW engine I know is going to kill a lot of your own troops if you try to fire over them. But I can't remember if that happened in the battle: anyone else notice?

Well they didn't show any "blue on blue", but it looked like thier archers were miles away from the rest of their troops anyway!

Since 1.2 you can place your missile troops behind the rest of your army and they work quite well (slingers aren't as good, but then they tend to shoot slowly and generally be rubbish anyway!). In fact it makes the game that bit easier as you can sting a unit with arrows and it will then charge straight into your waiting infantry. Particularly useful when playing as a Greek faction.