New screenshot thread..... [Archive]

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PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 00:30

Hoping that stupid comments on romans won't be called again up from a pic show ....

here is the triaria ... made one legged and with a shield simbol still to fix little things .....

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/7564/17ir.jpg

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/1893/23od.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 00:45

Although the mail looks less dark, since it is still in the shade, I cannot really say. As for the rest of the unit, IMHO, it is absolutelly perfect. :2thumbsup:

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 00:47

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/6981/36ci.jpg

picture at close of the caesarian legions.....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 00:58

The unit is awesome. As for the mail, although it's very close to absolute perfection, I think it should have a greyish colour, not a brownish one.

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 01:05

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/698/19zf.jpg

Byzantine Prince

01-20-2005, 01:15

Hey guys can we get some more greek units. I'll appreciate any screenshots.

Dooz

01-20-2005, 02:28

Well... you've finally gone and done it... after many weeks of following these forums and being utterly amazed by everyone and everything being done... I finally gave in and registered... I know everyone on the EB team has heard it enough times to live off of for many lifetimes but this is truly the most amazing mod, or even most amazing game in its own right. It's hardcore cliche at this point but... thanks :embarassed:

Mkay then, now that we've gotten that out of the way. Prom you rule. Don't take stuff about Romans and whatnot in the game or otherwise personally dude. These Roman units look freakin awesome, but you had posted another version in the other screenshot thread which I think had better mail coloration and brightness and whatnot.

http://img138.exs.cx/img138/5299/19mr.jpg

Idunno. Personal preference of mine I assume. Oh and just wondering, will there be a new skin or any changes at all to the captain or acting general dude for every unit? The helmetless one. And will he look even more different for different factions?

And once again, to everybody working on this mod, may you all live prosperous and happy lives, due to the great deed to humanity you have all done here (Overdramatic? Maybe. Undeserved? Not in the least!). Good luck on the rest of this monumental task!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 02:42

Well... you've finally gone and done it... after many weeks of following these forums and being utterly amazed by everyone and everything being done... I finally gave in and registered... I know everyone on the EB team has heard it enough times to live off of for many lifetimes but this is truly the most amazing mod, or even most amazing game in its own right. It's hardcore cliche at this point but... thanks :embarassed: Thank you very much in name of the whole team. We apreciate very much your comments. Specially knowing that you've registered specifically because of EB. :bow:

Oh and just wondering, will there be a new skin or any changes at all to the captain or acting general dude for every unit? The helmetless one. And will he look even more different for different factions? Yes, for all of the above. All captains and generals will be faction specific and have unique looks.

And once again, to everybody working on this mod, may you all live prosperous and happy lives, due to the great deed to humanity you have all done here (Overdramatic? Maybe. Undeserved? Not in the least!). Good luck on the rest of this monumental task!Thank you indeed. Very gratefull we are for such comments... :bow:

blz

01-20-2005, 02:43

perfect :)

Dooz

01-20-2005, 02:48

Allz I can say is... ~:) yay ~:) .... (sorry for making you give me the whole 'grateful' speech n stuff... you didn't haavttaaa...)

YOU GUYS RULE! WOOOOOOOO! *drunken college-guy yells*

*passes out*

Big_John

01-20-2005, 05:43

Specially knowing that you've registered specifically because of EB. :bow:i bet a lot of people have registered b/c of EB. i myself registered entirely because of EB and Blue Lotus (50/50). the EB guys are great, but that hoggy is a mad genius freakshow maniac. kidnap him and force him to collaborate with your modelers/skinners.. just a thought.
:greedy:

g33kvence

01-20-2005, 07:43

Good work!

Dead Moroz

01-20-2005, 10:34

Prom, your triarii are great! Bravo!!! :iloveyou:

Hope, you'll use their chain mail for other units.

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 15:31

http://img71.exs.cx/img71/638/11qz.jpg

Princeps..... I enlighted a bit more the mail....

eadingas

01-20-2005, 15:37

Curious question - what's that on the triarii helmet?

Catiline

01-20-2005, 15:39

Dead Moroz

01-20-2005, 15:44

Good work!

I think they should have another pattern on shield. Imho, there should be unique pattern for each type of Roman units.

eadingas

01-20-2005, 15:46

BTW, Prom, perhaps you could get better screenshots if you'd select the unit before taking a screencap? Then they would be backlighted (you can remove the silly green arrows in the preferences.txt) and better visible.

Albow0001

01-20-2005, 16:15

Prom:

Looking nice. I agree with the Lorica Hamata not being split

Something else is bugging me, wanted to clear it up though: The shield pattern of the wolf, is that based off of the one i posted for 3d art application? Because it looks great, and you managed to get it to not mirror as bad, so i'm shamed from a job ~;) IF so, i also see you lessened the scratches and dirt, but it looks really really good, almost subtly so.

BTW: If i want to help work on Roman textures with you, who do i need to PM about it?

Stefan the Berserker

01-20-2005, 16:40

Curious question - what's that on the triarii helmet?

Cut-outs for Eyes like on a greek style helmet, but fake. This Helmets developed from the trick to hide behind the shield an let the enemy think he would hit something.

eadingas

01-20-2005, 16:48

Woah. I never knew that. Clever :) If only we could get the AI be tricked by that ;)

Catiline

01-20-2005, 17:02

That sounds suspiciously like a myth to me. The Etrusco Corinthian helmet was a bastardised version of the Greek Corinthian. The Greek Corinthinan could be worn pushed up for greater visibility. The style was copied for the Etrusco Corinthian, and the eyes remained at a stylistic feature. I think in most cases they're actually engraved or embossed features, as opposed to being real holes. seems a bit foolish having holes in a helmet just for stylistic reasons.

Urnamma

01-20-2005, 17:11

Actually, those helmets are quite correct. The reason for the eyes was most likely decoration, since it didn't really affect the helmet's usefullness much.

Ailill

01-20-2005, 17:39

Prom,
Looking amazing as always, the mail on those princeps is looking just about perfect. The brownness of the triarii you posted was a bit wierd, but it looks like you got it perfect with the princeps, good work! ~:cheers:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 18:16

Prom

This might be a question that's already been asked, but is there a reason why you are including a split in the mail shirts on the bottom half. Lorica hamata didn't include a split, but was a solid skirt. Iss this a concious decison or something that forced on you by texturing constraints?It's because the texture in that area is stretched while the soldier is walking. If it had other than a unpatterned texture the stretching would be very noticeable and ugly.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 18:21

BTW: If i want to help work on Roman textures with you, who do i need to PM about it?Because you have to talk to me or Dicatator Sulla first. It's a question of organization and assignement.

Zanderpants

01-20-2005, 18:46

Princepes look awesome!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 22:34

the EB guys are great, but that hoggy is a mad genius freakshow maniac. kidnap him and force him to collaborate with your modelers/skinners.. just a thought. :greedy:You bet. He's an awesome modeller/skinner. We would love having him in EB, but he has is own mod and no time for anything else.

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 23:27

Who is hoggy and for what mod works?

anyway here is a first Auxilia...

http://img138.exs.cx/img138/2906/17fp.jpg

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 23:28

to whoever played with my settings i need back my ability to edit post thanks....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 23:34

You lost your editing hability? :surprised: That is very strange... :confused:

Try to contact TosaInu or barocca about it...

BTW, why can't I see Member written under your avatar?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-20-2005, 23:38

Who is hoggy and for what mod works?He has is own MOD. Blue Lotus MOD. It's a fantasy MOD based on oriental mithology.

anyway here is a first Auxilia...

http://img138.exs.cx/img138/2906/17fp.jpgAren't these the Princeps? ~:confused:

I think the mail is getting better in reflexion and light...

PROMETHEUS

01-20-2005, 23:56

Of socourse they are princeps , but since i cant edit then I couldn't change ....

Those are the Auxiliary...

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/7654/28el.jpg

http://img147.exs.cx/img147/925/14bm.jpg

Urnamma

01-21-2005, 00:07

Auxiliaries look great Prom! The armor is looking good too now!

PROMETHEUS

01-21-2005, 01:07

Seems I have to leave this forum since my account has been blocked , dunno why....

blz

01-21-2005, 01:26

auxiliarys looking good :)

DemonArchangel

01-21-2005, 01:32

Hell, PROM, i'll PM Tosa if necessary.
Dear God, those Auxilia are f****** gorgeous...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-21-2005, 02:15

Bellíssimo!!! The Auxilia are fantastic!!! :2thumbsup:

Seems I have to leave this forum since my account has been blocked , dunno why....I will contact TosaInu immediatelly to solve the problem. You'll be back editing posts in not time.

Dooz

01-21-2005, 04:25

OMG OMG OMG! *flutters about* Those are the most amazing Roman units... EVER!!! I shall say this after every Roman unit Prometheus puts out! And I shall be damn proud! Get the man his editing powers and lets be on with it.

The Panda Centurion

01-21-2005, 06:00

I really must agree that those units are extremely good. It's a good thing that you changed the chainmail to have smaller links, but i still think it should be less brown. ~;)

- Panda

khelvan

01-21-2005, 06:50

Did you change the size of your .sig in time? Because as I remember the punishment if you did not have a reduced file size in your .sig by Monday was losing your membership status. You need to ask Tosa about this, he would be the only person that could do it to you.

PROMETHEUS

01-22-2005, 15:43

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/1720/18ud.jpg

What about this one?

DemonArchangel

01-22-2005, 15:52

Nice, but what's with the face mail?

Stefan the Berserker

01-22-2005, 15:53

What are they, by Guess I did say it are strange Auxiliaries from the East. However is this a roman Unit?

Urnamma

01-22-2005, 17:56

Those are Seleucid Thorakitai Argyraspidai. Imitation legionaries did not exist, contrary to the wargaming community (the scholarly community is quite clear, and being part of this as a historian, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there were no imitation legionaries).

The unit is based on some textual accounts and recent archaeological finds in Syria dating to the Seleucid period (one of which is a forthcoming journal article by me). Their chain mail is '1 ring in 5', and very fine and expensive. It offers optimum protection. They are an elite unit within the Hypastistai, and are used to assault enemy formations. Someone said they wanted more Greek units, and we delivered ;)

Byzantine Prince

01-22-2005, 18:43

Yez I did ask for more greek units. The colors on that unit though are not of the Seleucids. Can you change them?

khelvan

01-22-2005, 19:23

We don't use faction colors. Unless you mean the shield is not appropriate?

The Panda Centurion

01-22-2005, 20:07

The mail on those Seleucid soldiers is perfect, if you give that colour of mail to all of your units it will look fantastic. ~:cheers:

Dooz

01-22-2005, 21:48

That's an awesome unit. Chainmail ninjas! Woo! (joke! dont historical bash me :bow: )

PROMETHEUS

01-22-2005, 22:22

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/9093/15ui.jpg

Dooz

01-22-2005, 22:55

The shields are very nice in that new one. Would it be possible for them to be the same color as the tunic? Dark blueish-greenish?

eadingas

01-22-2005, 23:16

The shields look much better now... are they in light or in shadow on that picture?

Lord Adherbal

01-22-2005, 23:33

new sacred band cavalry horse

http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/RTW/SB.gif

Crownsteler

01-23-2005, 00:02

WOW!!! That looks amazing!!! It might be able to use some more refining (the rear end looks a bit plain), but it is incredable! Could you mount it with the new model so we can see the whole picture (the old model is riding it, right?)

The Panda Centurion

01-23-2005, 00:36

The sacred band horse armour looks magnificient, but are you just going to use the original sacred band soldier?

Ailill

01-23-2005, 02:24

Wow fantastic work on those seluecids Prom, they look absolutely amazing.

Adherbal, great work, looks amazing but could you possibly clean up the edges on the barding as it looks a bit too jaggy, and maybe soften some of the textures to look less digital, otherwise great work.

:medievalcheers:

blz

01-23-2005, 04:47

Prom, Adherbal - awesome work, keep up!

Gangstaman590

01-23-2005, 05:46

The samnite

01-23-2005, 05:47

Prom, looking great as usual.

One question: Are those skins normal texture size, or are they 512x512?

Dooz

01-23-2005, 09:43

The Wizard

01-23-2005, 15:42

On those Thorakitai Argyraspidai... what are a centurion and an aquilifer doing next to Seleucid troops? Just wondering, otherwise sublime work!

~Wiz

eadingas

01-23-2005, 15:46

I suppose Prom's using some generic roman unit just to show us his models. It's not a fully finished unit.

The Wizard

01-23-2005, 15:48

Yeah, that's what I thought... still, waiting for Prom's answer ~;)

~Wiz

Steppe Merc

01-23-2005, 21:59

About the Sacred band: No horse armour would cover a horse's rear. It's not smart, trust me! :charge:

Dooz

01-24-2005, 03:52

Not necessarily armor... it could just be a little design or something. It just looks to bare the way it is.

Gangstaman590

01-24-2005, 05:09

Not necessarily armor... it could just be a little design or something. It just looks to bare the way it is.

He doesn't have to add anything unless its historically acurrate. Which I hope is the case... ~D

Dooz

01-24-2005, 06:02

Yes yes, I know about the whole doesnt-have-to-look-nice-long-as-its-accurate thing, and I'm all for it. I'm just saying if theres lets say more than one historically accurate version of the unit, it'd be best if they chose the one that looks a bit better ~:)

Dead Moroz

01-24-2005, 09:35

Meneldil

01-24-2005, 09:44

Those guys are Thorakitai Agryraspids, which is I think a post reform Seleucid unit.

Urnamma was refering to the imitation legionnaries because the Thorakitai look kinda romans (though they aren't the 'imitation legionnaries' you can find in every wargame - or in RTW, as the silver shield legionnaries or something like that - but who probably never existed).

Well, that's what I've understood at least ~;)

Seydlitz

01-24-2005, 12:03

Sorry, Urnamma, I didn't clearly understand your answer. Who are those guys on pic? Seleucid imitation of Roman legionaries that never existed in reality, but will be in our mod? Or something specifically Seleucid, just using some Roman weapon (and tactics?)?

I'm not Urnamma, but I did the concept art for the model on Urnamma's request.

He is saying they are mistaken for imitation legions due to the fact that they fight in a 'Roman Style'. It's not shown in the screenshot, but those Thorakitai Agyraspidai would carry three javelins into combat as well as a spear: And like the Romans, they would throw the javelins into combat before engaging. This lead people to believe they where imitation legions.

These guys were the elite of the Seleucid Hypaspistai, and I'm guessing they would be used in roles for covering the phalanx, or engaging the more mobile units of barbarian armies and things like that.

Hope that helps a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong Urnamma.

- Seydlitz

Steppe Merc

01-24-2005, 18:55

Not necessarily armor... it could just be a little design or something. It just looks to bare the way it is.

You misunderstand me. I meant that there wouldn't be anything at all covering the horses butt. They releve themselves while walking, and I have never seen any drawings with anything covering their rear.

Dooz

01-24-2005, 22:51

You misunderstand me. I meant that there wouldn't be anything at all covering the horses butt. They releve themselves while walking, and I have never seen any drawings with anything covering their rear.

Oh I see, I see. That very well might be true, but the first thing that pops up in my head is the horses that the medieval knights mounted. I believe they had their entire body covered.

http://www.knightlife.net/newhorse.jpg

As for relieving themselves, apparently they have a little slit in the back

http://www.horsegazette.com/Monthly_Features/Mar-2003/Medieval/knights%20fight.jpg

But for gaming purposes, if they can't exactly design the little slit, I think it should be fine. Everyone knows 3d horses don't 3d poo ~:)

Sarcasm

01-24-2005, 23:31

First off let me congratulate you on your MOD, it´s looking great, can´t wait to get my hands on it nad start playing. You will show ppl that realistic is fun!Kudos to you :bow:

Acording to some historians, immitation legionaries were made up of locals trained by veterans from military roman colonies, as well as those of the said colonies. So it wouldn´t be too far fetched to actually have some kind of second-rate legionaries one some of the nations adjacent to the empire as well as in some client-states (i.e Military advisors were sent to Numidia to train locals in roman arms and tactics, although I can´t find any evidence of their actual performance, and this was during the Punic Wars).

Few of questions on Sucessor states (bear with me :wiseguy:):
*Will there be Galatian auxiliaries (which were so common among the Sucessor states)?
*It was also my understanding that Seleucids used Companion-like cavalry instead of Cataphracts.What will be your take on this?
*Will shields be replaced by the thureos in any of the "Greek" factions?
*Will pikes be available to the greek league faction?

About horses being armoured in their posterior ;) in medieval times it wasn´t uncommon to see horses with full mail covering, or even plate in the late period. How this translates to ancient times I dunnot know. I´m just saying it´s possible (besides it can be only fabric....).

I´ll just lurk around and give my opinion, even when no one asks for it ~D. Just kidding, but if I can help in any way, I will.

Aymar ainda bem que é um português a tratar da Peninsula. Vamos ver como ficam esses Lusitanos :thumbsup:

Dooz

01-24-2005, 23:39

First off let me congratulate you on your MOD, it´s looking great, can´t wait to get my hands on it nad start playing. You will show ppl that realistic is fun!Kudos to you :bow:

Now is that sarcastic? You sly little devil you. ~;)

Sarcasm

01-25-2005, 00:13

Haha, No it isn´t. Or maybe it is. ~;)

PSYCHO V

01-25-2005, 00:13

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1belgaeBritontats.jpg

British Belgae, by Vercingetrix and PROMETHEUS

PROMETHEUS

01-25-2005, 01:01

Looks good but what about the other check guards? are just for rebels? and what about the other tattoed ones? according to the discussion I had with Ranika when making them this tatto was for the belgae proper while the heavy filled one was for the british....

Ranika

01-25-2005, 01:06

That paint is fine, the rebels just need LESS paint than the Britons, not necessarily the Britons being totally covered in them (though they're pretty heavily painted anyway).

Also, to my understanding of the word, tattoos are actually placed within the skin, aren't they? And are permanent. What the Britons have on them isn't like that, it's just painted on. However, the Briton Rhyfelwyr would have actual tattoos.

PROMETHEUS

01-25-2005, 01:17

so is a rebel unit not a briton one? and for the word tattoe sorry but since i was making tattoes with henna on summer i refer to them like this .....

Ranika

01-25-2005, 01:32

No, that skin dispalyed there is the Briton. The rebel will have less paint than that one. The one Pyscho showed with paint is the Briton though

PROMETHEUS

01-25-2005, 11:13

http://img126.exs.cx/img126/5026/forumebmodbelgaeswordsmena2sn9.jpg

So the one I made for the briton on the right wich is more heavily painted is wrong?

Byzantine Prince

01-25-2005, 23:07

Why does their hair colour coordinate? Not all Belgians would have the same hair colour.

PROMETHEUS

01-26-2005, 00:23

http://img198.exs.cx/img198/5472/13ua.jpg

PROMETHEUS

01-26-2005, 00:47

http://img162.exs.cx/img162/7761/18an.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-26-2005, 00:48

Regarding the Thorokitai Argyraspidai, the cheek guards are more to the front of the face.

BTW, they are Argyraspidai (Silver Shields) >>> Shield colour = silver? :wink:

Urnamma

01-26-2005, 00:52

Aymar: the medusa head is silver.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-26-2005, 00:55

Aymar: the medusa head is silver."Silver Shield" isn't the same as "Silver patern on crimson shield".

Big_John

01-26-2005, 01:09

http://img198.exs.cx/img198/5472/13ua.jpg
i don't think i'll ever get tired of looking at that unit.. i want to marry it and have it's babies.

edit: whoot i'm a member now, thx to whoever did that. i want to have your babies too.

Byzantine Prince

01-26-2005, 02:00

I really hate the face masks. Can you plaese take them off, pleeeaaaaaase...!!!

There is no real evidence for it so why keep it?

DemonArchangel

01-26-2005, 03:04

Because, I DemonArchangel, think it looks cool.

Gangstaman590

01-26-2005, 04:47

http://img198.exs.cx/img198/5472/13ua.jpg

So this is the Seluecid unit? My questions are why isn't their entire shield silver, and why do they look so roman? (besides the fact the centurion is standing there)

Urnamma

01-26-2005, 07:31

I really hate the face masks. Can you plaese take them off, pleeeaaaaaase...!!!

There is no real evidence for it so why keep it?

How about archaeological evidence?

'The find was significant in that we not only found three suits of incredibly well kept mail armor that was so tightly woven they had five and six rings inside a single ring, we also found what appear to be veils made of mail attached to ruined iron attic style helmets'

Journal for the dig twenty miles west of Antioch, 13th of June, 2002.

Urnamma

01-26-2005, 07:36

So this is the Seluecid unit? My questions are why isn't their entire shield silver, and why do they look so roman? (besides the fact the centurion is standing there)

Romans adopted their mail armor from the celts. The Galatian tribes moved into asia minor, where mail armor spread like wildfire to the Greeks and Successors. This unit is the product of some exciting archaeological finds. There are paintings of Thureos shields like this that were either deep blue or crimson, and they had an exceedingly interesting silver medusa head in the center. The shield was probably covered with silver leaf in that area.

They look 'roman' because they were a form of Thorakitai, which is an armored Thureophoroi. The Thureophoroi were a group that split off from the traditional peltast by having a larger and heavier (celtic style) thureos shield and carrying stabbing spears in addition to javelins. Thorakitai were often armored in mail or scale armor (depending on region). Their fighting style was entirely Greek, developed through time. Romans didn't fight in the classical way we think of them very much in 270 B.C. In fact, some still fought in a phalanx with bronze armor! They look 'Roman' because everyone assumes that only Romans could fight like that, which is not true. ~;)

Dooz

01-26-2005, 09:17

Sheep

01-26-2005, 09:42

I really hate the face masks. Can you plaese take them off, pleeeaaaaaase...!!!

There is no real evidence for it so why keep it?

Because it makes them look more like Shredder, a charter member of the Saturday Morning Cartoon Archvillain Hall of Fame, which can never be a bad thing.

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-26-2005, 13:19

Sorry for the off topicness, but DemonArchangel, how do you put a different name or whatever under your username, instead of "Junior Member" or whatnot. Where yours says "Your neighborhood antichrist". I looked in the user control panel but couldn't find anything.
Assuming junior members can do this, you must go into your User CP (that's at the top-left, a little below the Guild picture) and select Edit Profile from the list of options on the left. Then change the title at the Custom User Title box. When you are satisfied with your new title, click Save Changes. However, I don't know if junior members can do that. If not, then just wait until you are a full member. ~:cheers:

Dooz

01-26-2005, 15:08

Thank you kind sir.

monkian

01-26-2005, 15:53

Because it makes them look more like Shredder, a charter member of the Saturday Morning Cartoon Archvillain Hall of Fame, which can never be a bad thing.

Now that would be an Uber General unit- surrounded by warriors of the mighty Foot clan ~D

Moros

01-26-2005, 19:44

khelvan

01-26-2005, 19:49

The Belgae were a people. While there was a later province named in Gaul, the people spread to different areas. The unt will be available to the Britons, Gauls, and as a mercenary unit, to reflect the spread of the Belgae.

Ranika or Psycho can go into great detail about why we have chosen the Celtic units we have chosen.

PSYCHO V

01-27-2005, 01:58

Well dis is bizzar, British Belgae? I thought Belgica was a province of Gaul (well not in the game but it was). Caesar even said this De bello Gallico, the first sentence: Omni Gallia divisa est in partes tres,... (I doubt that this is properly written but hey, I don't know de bello gallico by heart). If You want it to be reallistic make it a Gaul province or a rebel but not a British. I would make the unit Gallic too. Or you could make a new faction Belgae. But It territoritry would be so small the germans, British or Gauls would conquer it in no time...
BTW: caesar said too: Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae... (And yes, I do live in Belgium, :D)

~D Do not fear Gertgregoor. All is in order. There are three variants of the belgae. Gallic (Continental), Briton and rebel. There were several tribes of the belgae both in northern France, Belgium and Southern Holland ... as well as in South-Eastern Briton and even Ireland. The Rebs with be the generic belgae tribesman. The 'Gallic' version will be Belgae warrior elite on the mainland and will be able to be raised in that area by the Gaul (Aedui) faction if it controls the area. The Briton version the Belgae in southern Briton etc. In fact, the Briton faction will most probably be the Belgae Cassi. They will all be accurately depicted with the geographical variations.

Gangstaman590

01-27-2005, 23:26

Romans adopted their mail armor from the celts. The Galatian tribes moved into asia minor, where mail armor spread like wildfire to the Greeks and Successors. This unit is the product of some exciting archaeological finds. There are paintings of Thureos shields like this that were either deep blue or crimson, and they had an exceedingly interesting silver medusa head in the center. The shield was probably covered with silver leaf in that area.

They look 'roman' because they were a form of Thorakitai, which is an armored Thureophoroi. The Thureophoroi were a group that split off from the traditional peltast by having a larger and heavier (celtic style) thureos shield and carrying stabbing spears in addition to javelins. Thorakitai were often armored in mail or scale armor (depending on region). Their fighting style was entirely Greek, developed through time. Romans didn't fight in the classical way we think of them very much in 270 B.C. In fact, some still fought in a phalanx with bronze armor! They look 'Roman' because everyone assumes that only Romans could fight like that, which is not true. ~;)

Wow, thanks for the history lesson. ~D I didn't know any of that stuff, thanks for filling me in.

PROMETHEUS

01-28-2005, 00:18

http://img117.exs.cx/img117/42/17ry.jpg

What about this shield for the Sacred Band?

Turin

01-28-2005, 00:35

Wow that is unbelievable, I love the 3-D look!

Are you all sure that the Carthagians should still have the Sacred Band units? I mean, are they not a little historically inaccurate?

Big_John

01-28-2005, 01:13

http://img117.exs.cx/img117/42/17ry.jpg

What about this shield for the Sacred Band?i'd need to see it in-game to really comment, but it's freaking amazing looking on it's own. wow. ~:eek:

Gangstaman590

01-28-2005, 02:51

The shield looks amazing but what is that rod above it? The shield still looks cool though ~:cool:

Sarcasm

01-28-2005, 03:36

Urnamma

01-28-2005, 06:15

Well the shield looks amazing. Technically and visually it´s a master-piece, but I don´t think Sacred Band is an adequate unit for this time period. The Sacred Band (both infantry and cavalry) was annihilated by the Greeks from the city of Syracuse around 340 B.C. I don´t know of other references in history about another Carthaginian Sacred Band.

Well, firstly, there were two sacred bands. The Sacred Band of Baal is the one you're talking about, but heavy infantry exactly like them are mentioned many times after their 'destruction'. Perhaps the Carthaginians simply did not wish to tempt fate a second time?

The Sacred Band of Astarte, the cavalry, existed up until 170 B.C. or so, when Astarte's temple essentially went bankrupt. (Oddly, though Tanit took the roles of the Phoenician Astarte, Astarte (the name and the Goddess) take the role of Anath).

Sarcasm

01-28-2005, 17:58

I only know mention of a "Sacred Band" from Plutarch that you must surely know, I was hoping that you could supply me some sources to prove your point (I crave to learn)... :bow:

"(At) the river Crimesus appeared to them again, and they could descry the
enemies passing over it, first with their formidable four-horse chariots
of war, and then ten thousand footmen bearing white shields, whom
they guessed to be all Carthaginians, from the splendour of their arms, and the slowness and order of their march And when now the troops of various other nations, flowing in behind them, began to throng for passage in a tumultuous and unruly manner (...) They, for their part, stoutly received and sustained his first onset; and having their bodies armed with breast-plates of iron, and helmets of brass on their heads, besides great bucklers to cover and secure them, they could easily repel the charge of the Greek spears."

(Disciplined, equiped with iron breastplates, brass helmets and large shields, which I´m presuming are of the hoplite "Aspis"-type) :book:

"It is said that, of ten thousand who lay dead after the fight, three thousand, at least, were Carthaginian citizens; a heavy loss and great grief to their countrymen; those that fell being men inferior to none among them as to birth, wealth, or reputation. Nor do their records mention that so many native Carthaginians were ever cut off before in any one battle."

(so these were pretty wealthy citizens, and there isn´t any mention of Carthage employing its best troops again in such numbers, at least in Plutarch´s lifetime) :book:

"The tent of Timoleon then presented a most glorious and magnificent appearance, being heaped up and hung round with every variety of spoils and military ornaments, among which there were a thousand breastplates of rare workmanship and beauty, and bucklers to the number of ten thousand."

(Again, there´s mention to iron breastplates of great beuty, sugesting an Elite fighting force) :book:

Assuming for the sake of argument, that they did indeed existed afterwards, they should be armed diferently as one may easly conclude from this text.

Sarcasm

01-28-2005, 18:06

Doesn´t this forum have an edit option? ~:confused:

Just noticed something you said, about not tempting fate. Do you mean by not sending these troops into combat at all or just not calling it "Sacred"?

(would really apreciate those sources :thumbsup:)

Urnamma

01-28-2005, 18:49

As you know, sources come from different fields.

Much of the source material is archaeological (such as iron breasplates found with white enamel on them, making them gleam and shine). Also, several tablets and papyrus fragments (which were found in a jar by a Tunisian Berber while he was herding goats) have been found from 1990-2002.

One of these tablets is a temple account record for the temple of Astarte in Utica. (For all those of you who thought double entry book-keeping wasn't ancient, I assure you, it was used by Phoenicians) They list nearly a thousand sets of heavy cavalry equipment, including white enameled breastplates, lances, falcatae, etc.

As for the infantry, while there is no definitive proof that the 'Sacred Band' of Baal still exists (sort of, I'll get to this in a sec), there are mentions of units fighting in the same armor, with the same weapons, and in the same way. I think they might simply stop calling them the Sacred Band while the unit was still fighting.

As for the shields, the image comes from a coin, where Baal (the lion) is killing Jupiter (the bull).

Sarcasm

01-28-2005, 19:08

Well have these finds been released on the web? Would really love to get my hands on some translations.

Regarding the shields, it´s stated in the text I posted, that the shields were white, so it would at least have a white background behind the embossed silver Lion and Bull.

As for the armour, it shouldn´t be a linothorax...iron breastpaltes of suberb quality should be used instead. And from what you said, cavalry should use them as well.

One final question (PITA...I know.... ~;) ), is there a final word on the type of phalanx it´s going to be? I assume they should be more of a "old" greek style than a mecedonian one, right?

(Don´t you just hate not being able to edit your posts? Especially when you find wrong spelling in your posts from writing in a hurry.... :furious3: )

Spino

01-28-2005, 19:29

Big_John

01-28-2005, 19:34

sarcasm, us members can edit our posts to our heart's content. lowly junior members have to show the proper respect to the elders before you get the amenities. ahh, now i'm off to get my swedish artichoke bath.. sorry old sport, members only of course. cheerio!

edit: editted for added pretentiousness

Urnamma

01-28-2005, 19:43

There're three types of phalanxes that will be implemented in EB.

Iphikratean (underhand spears, one handed)

Macedonian (underhand spears, two handed)

Lacadaemonian (overhand spears, one handed)

The sb uses Iphikratean phalanx formation.

khelvan

01-28-2005, 19:47

Wonderful stuff! the Carthies are looking simply spectacular for this mod! I say leave the Sacred Band Infantry in, historical accuracy is great but there is a need for balance as well and I doubt they're going to come cheap. Besides, isn't EB's campaign supposed to begin around or before 300 BC? That's close enough for me to justify their presence.Currently, no. Our last testing date was 272 BCE. As you can see above, we only use units we can find historical justification to use. A common assumption that a unit was destroyed or eliminated, when evidence exists that it was not, is not enough for us.

Gangstaman590

01-28-2005, 20:36

Gangstaman590

01-28-2005, 20:38

Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?

Byzantine Prince

01-28-2005, 20:47

Omg, can we have more screenies and less pointless posts. This is the screenies thread.

Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?

That's the model. You're looking at it from above so it looks weird. That's the guy's head and shoulders.

Sarcasm

01-28-2005, 20:54

Khelvan: Just because there isn´t a clear statement saying that a sort of unit has ended, it doesn´t mean it hasn´t. In this case, this group was annihilated, and was never formed again to the best of our knoledge. If there were in fact troops fighting in the same fashion, I´d like to see some sources on it (not talking about the cavalry), have you considered greek mercenaries being these units? they would fight in the same manner. Also the time period from when we actually hear about this Sacred Band, to the beginning of the game is around 75 years...in those times, several generations.

Big_John.... you elitist bastard! :toff:

*moving music* We should all join forces, in one big family, for the sake of the MOD ,nay for the greater good of the gaming community! *applause*

By the way, who do I have to kill to be a member?

Crownsteler

01-28-2005, 22:04

I've seen the evidence posted before around here somewhere (try looking for a unitlist topic on page 2 or 3, it should be in there), and although it may, or may not have been the sacred band, they'd still need *something* to call it by, besides, aren't they going to rename all units to a different (and appropiate) language? So for all we know they are going to be called "peasants who have never seen battle before, but think they are though in their beautiful armor"

@Prom
Beautiful shield!!! I like it more than the previous version (a) Are you going to rework the rest of the texture too??

Crownsteler

01-28-2005, 22:24

Okey, no editing function for me yet :( so sorry for the double post

Maybe Poeni infantry should be renamed Liby-Phoenician Infantry. Phoenicians did not fight outside of elite units and the officer corps, according to my sources. They let the half-libyans fight though.

That's wrong. In both the 1st punic war and in the 'Mercenaries/Truceless war' at least (both near RTW's starting period), it is very clear that carthaginian citizenry fought (in phalanxes) in significative numbers. It was however in special occasions and it is not known if they were, at least in small numbers, present in the mainstream carthaginian armies. IMO at least a small contingent of 'doubtless' loyal soldiers must have been present to ensure the officer's corps authority in possible tense situations with the hired mercenaries.

During the 1st punic war when Regulus had Carthage ready for siege:

"For, in addition to the misfortunes I have mentioned, the Numidians, attacking them at the same time as the Romans, inflicted not less but even more damage on the country than the latter. The terror-stricken inhabitants took refuge in the city of Carthage"
...
"When the Romans saw that the Carthaginians were marching through the flat country and pitching their camps on level ground, they were surprised indeed and somewhat disturbed by this in particular, but yet were anxious on the whole to get into contact with the enemy. Acting on this authority, he[Xantippus, the 'carthaginian' gen] sent the elephants forward and drew them up in a single line in front of the whole force, placing the Carthaginian phalanx at a suitable distance behind them. Some of the mercenaries he stationed on the right wing, while the most active he placed together with the cavalry in front of both wings"

During the 'Mercenaries/Truceless war' against the Lybians+Mercs:
"Yet, although the Carthaginians were in such straits, they first of all appointed Hanno to the command; they[carthies] next busied themselves with enrolling mercenaries and arming the citizens of military age. They also mustered and drilled their civic cavalry and got ready what ships they had left, consisting of triremes, quinqueremes and the largest of their skiffs.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence [of being traped and sieged in Carthage itself], seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/1*.html

"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.

It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/1*.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
As far as carthaginian citizen infantry goes, it was always of low quality.

Why so? Links? If you read Polybius you'll find that they excelled in the 2 campaigns I mentioned earlier. In more detail,

Against the romans, in that battle of the 1st punic war, they stood their own and got nearly 0 casualties:

"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.

It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html

While in the campaign against the rebellion of Mercs + moreLybians +Numidians, they fought greatly... mercs who were no n00bs at all:

"Some of these [mercenary] troops were Iberians, some Celts, some Ligurians, and some from the Balearic islands; there were a good many Greek half-breeds, mostly deserters and slaves, but the largest portion consisted of Libyans.
...
being convinced in their arrogance, owing to their success in Sicily against the Roman legions, that not only the Carthaginians, but any other people in the world would not readily face them in arms.
...
Mathos [Lybian rebel general], having so far carried out his purpose, at once sent envoys to the Libyan towns urging them to strike a blow for liberty and imploring their support and practical assistance. Nearly all the Libyans had agreed to join in the revolt against Carthage and willingly contributed troops and supplies.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence, seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men.
...
Spendius [roman rebel gen], on learning what had happened, put his two forces in movement to meet in the plain and render mutual assistance to each other, those from the town near the bridge being not less than ten thousand in number and those from Utica over fifteen thousand. When they got in sight of each other, thinking that they had caught the Carthaginians in a trap between them, they exhorted each other with loud shouts and engaged the enemy...About six thousand Libyans and mercenaries fell and nearly two thousand were made prisoners.
...
He [Hamilcar] next traversed the rest of the country, winning over some towns and taking others by assault.
...
Spendius, after effecting a junction with the Libyans, descended into the plain and attacked the Carthaginians. The battle was a stubborn one, but ended in the victory of Hamilcar. Autaritus and Spendius escaped, but with the loss of about ten thousand killed and four thousand prisoners.
...
A short time afterwards, collecting a picked force of mercenaries and Libyans to the number of about fifty thousand and including Zarzas the Libyan and those under his command, tried again their former plan of marching in the open parallel to the enemy and keeping a watch on Hamilcar...Autaritus, Zarzas and Spendius decided to give themselves up to the enemy and discuss terms with Hamilcar [after he outmanouvered and trapped them]... The Libyans, when they learnt of their officers' arrest, thought they had been betrayed, as they were ignorant of the treaty, and rushed to arms, but Hamilcar, surrounding them (more than forty thousand) with his elephants and the rest of his forces, cut them all to pieces. This occurred near the place called the Saw; it got this name from its resemblance to the tool so called.

...[the Lybians were still more and were sieging Carthage, when Hamilcar arrived to besiege the besieged]

They appointed a committee of thirty senators and dispatched them to Hamilcar accompanied by Hanno, the general who had previously retired from command, but now resumed it, and by all their remaining citizens of military age, whom they had armed as a sort of forlorn hope...When they were each ready to attack, they drew up their armies confronting each other and at a preconcerted signal closed. The Carthaginians gained the victory, most of the Libyans falling in the battle, while the rest escaped to a certain city and soon afterwards surrendered, but Mathos himself was taken by the enemy."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html

As you see urnamma, carthaginian citizens fought exemplarly against an OVERWHELMING outnumbering enemy who, according to Polybius, numbered up to 100.000 in total.... Hamilcar had 10.000 to start, many among them exactly 'mere' carthaginian citizens. And no, I'm not talking of the 'Sacred Band' units who were highly trained in academy-religious temples (thus also highly moralised), with the best weapons-armour available and suposedly extinct by these times ... or were they?

There is many, many more intresting information on this page btw:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38819&page=2&pp=30
(probally highly outdated, but still helpful :))

khelvan

01-28-2005, 22:29

Sarcasm, read what Urnamma says, up above. He is basing his unit choices on archaeological digs that he, and his colleagues, were a part of, among other things. I tend to trust his opinion, not to mention when he has physical evidence.

Urnamma

01-28-2005, 22:36

I was only on one dig there, to be humble. Many, many, many more people in tunisia worked on this stuff, most more than I have.

Dooz

01-28-2005, 22:40

A bit off topic of the current topic, but still on topic about units and whatnot, but... will there be any helmetless warriors from barbarian factions?... I've grown kinda fond of these funny little gauls... ~:)

Spino

01-28-2005, 22:40

Currently, no. Our last testing date was 272 BCE. As you can see above, we only use units we can find historical justification to use. A common assumption that a unit was destroyed or eliminated, when evidence exists that it was not, is not enough for us.

Ah, thanks for the FYI. Pity though, I was hoping to see some recreations of the Greco-Hellenic rumbles that took place in southern Italy prior to and including 280 BC but if you're going to keep the three playable Roman factions then I suppose it's for the best.

=Urnamma]There're three types of phalanxes that will be implemented in EB.

Iphikratean (underhand spears, one handed)

Macedonian (underhand spears, two handed)

Lacadaemonian (overhand spears, one handed)

The sb uses Iphikratean phalanx formation.

If this is the case I must assume you've figured out a way to overcome the collision detection/hit box problems that CA ran into when they tried to implement an overhand thrust for certain spear units? Months ago I recall some modders over at TWC tried to give spear units the same overhand animation as javelin throwers but the change actually wound up decreasing those units' killing abilities. Those modded units were hard pressed to get the same kill ratios as their underhanded counterparts, especially when fighting enemies standing at lower height/elevation than themselves.

Crownsteler

01-28-2005, 22:52

Wouldn't it be realistic if an overhand phalanx would be less effecient on hilly terrain??

Fianóglach

01-29-2005, 01:31

This mod looks absolutely amazing, keep up the good work lads! ~:cheers:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-29-2005, 02:52

If this is the case I must assume you've figured out a way to overcome the collision detection/hit box problems that CA ran into when they tried to implement an overhand thrust for certain spear units? Months ago I recall some modders over at TWC tried to give spear units the same overhand animation as javelin throwers but the change actually wound up decreasing those units' killing abilities. Those modded units were hard pressed to get the same kill ratios as their underhanded counterparts, especially when fighting enemies standing at lower height/elevation than themselves.Yes. We have figured it out. No problem anymore... ~:)