View Full Version : Something missing from the game
I couldnt quite put my finger on it at the begginning. RTW has a way of doing this because the game magazines rate it at 95%. Clearly it isnt worth 95% as many of you seem to tell me.
So heres whats going on. When you first play the game, its great. You cant fault it, its the best thing since sliced bread. However, when youve played it for a while and youre getting used to it, it seems to me as if its very hard to stop finding flaws. So heres my latest dissappointment.
Theres no real physics in the game. By that i mean, mainly weather. I mean, i cannot stress how important the weather is in these battles in real life. Suppose an army had a bunch of archers, and suppose they were attacking into a moderate wind, they would be renedered utterly useless because they wind takes off all of the speed and range and power.
In the game however, the weather is always the same. There is no change in wind, the heat in the deserts not a problem because it simply doesnt effect armoured troops enough (in MTW it was rather severely realistic). And lots of other stuff like charging and runing uphill or downhill is all watered down.
As i said, its mainly a bummer with missile units. After all, i remember people here saying that archers are too effective. I agree.
i find it a bit disturbing that they had these effects worked out to a significant degree already in MTW. For some (probably marketing related) reason, they have been "tuned down" or eliminated in RTW...
similarly, the friendly fire is much worse in RTW than MTW... c'me on, i do not find it realistic roman legionaries losing 50% of their units to friendly pila fire...
I believe it was to increase mass appeal. They should have put it in as a player option.
mfberg
I know, it was for mass appeal... This makes me even more frustrated...
dedmoroz
01-21-2005, 17:34
Why they have arcade battles option then???? ~:confused:
The manual clearly states that in arcade battles many realism settings are turned off so why for the love of god they should remove those settings from regular battles? :furious3:
Hope it is possible to mod some of those settings to be more realistic...
I think this game isnt worth anything above 85%. The more i play it, the moe things i find wrong with it.
Anyhoo, i agree totally with what you guys are saying.
Sol Invictus
01-21-2005, 17:54
Don't feel lonely. The players that loved STW and MTW for it's detailed tactical battles are sorely disappointed. I have quit playing RTW until the patch and mods can hopefully recreate some realistic tactical gameplay. I am also amazed that so much detail was eliminated from the normal mode since there is an arcade mode for those who just want to mindlessly run all over the battlefield.
Orvis Tertia
01-22-2005, 00:18
I don't think I agree with the initial post here. Weather does change in RTW. I've played plenty of battles in snowstorms and in windy conditions, and I have often delayed battles in order to get unfavorable weather when attacking archer-heavy armies.
I have no way to tell how the weather effects compare to what they were in MTW, but I have no reason to believe they are significantly different. I have noticed less foul weather than in MTW, but not to a degree that it seems unrealistic to me.
I would like to see more of a weather effect on infantry as far as getting tired, etc., but I don't see any real problems here, from my own experience playing the game.
I agree completely that the "normal" games feel like they're actually the "arcade" versions.
The hills mean nothing,
is rank bonuses for spears even in the game anymore?,
infantry moves almost as fast as cavalry (i.e. super fast),
the kill rate is so fast,
the terrain is so bland and devoid of tactical factors (MUCH flatter than in MTW, very few strategic hills, no maps with more than 1 bridge...),
units rout quickly,
less-precise control over unit facing and battle speed,
fewer formation options (only non-general cav can form wedge, but there is phalanx and legion turtle I guess),
a reduced ability to regain control of routing units...
At nearly every turn our options have been reduced, while at the same time new factors have been added that make city-management more complex. But that complexity has come in the form of a greater need to micro-manage petty things.
To me at least, STW and MTW emphasized the tactical battles and to a relative degree streamlined city management. RTW turned that on it's head, emphasizing difficult city maintenance and simplified combat. It reminds me more of Civilization and SimCity than of Warcraft or MTW. It's a pity really. The dumbed-down the fun part and complicated the mundane part. Just gotta keep your fingers crossed for the patch. It's been a long time in the making, so there's the chance some big improvements are in there.
Mikeus Caesar
01-22-2005, 14:07
I believe it was to increase mass appeal.
I hate it when they do that. They make it seem easier and better by dumbing it down, so that stupid noobs who don't have a clue how to turn on their computer will buy it. And as for the weather not changing enough, and all the other stuff, i completely agree with you. There are some things that were in STW and MTW that should be in RTW as well. After all, if people like it then keep it, don't change it to a ridiculous degree.
Rant finished.
lol, we should start a TW veterans revolt.
Mikeus Caesar
01-22-2005, 17:28
Hurrah!!! If we did that, we'd need a motto.
'TW veterans against NCG opinionated games!!'
IceTorque
01-22-2005, 20:05
i agree with all of the above
lets hope CA are listening.
Commodus
01-23-2005, 05:10
i agree with all of the above
lets hope CA are listening.
I doubt that they are listening. They probably made a lot more money with RTW than MTW and STW precisely because of the mass market appeal. In my opinion, it was bound to happen really. It is hard for a succesful enterprise to resist going mainstream. So the few of us who prefer MTW over RTW (strategy vs. graphics) should look for the next good game instead of hoping that the next TW series will answer our prayers. On a different note, with the latest bugs being found and such, I wouldn't be totally suprised if the normal battle mode was accidentally set to be the same as arcade mode or something ~:eek:
I have rtw installed and I have not played for weeks, I can not be bothered with the micro management and the chore of moving units on the fancy map. The constant uprisings in citys that have all mod cons and a top army occupying them.
IrishMike
01-24-2005, 00:51
The combat system feels to fragile aswell. I can never depend on any unit. Like in MTW I could depend on each unit to do a specific function and task. But in RTW sometimes my legions tear down the sky, other times they run at the sight of a rock. No consistency.
Well RTW simply does nto stack up in depth and ATMOSPHERE to past TW titles... that's all that I think is "missing". It needs more atmosphere more depth... it needs to "pull" you in like STW did.
This is why I only play on medium for camp map and battles. Granted the AI's behavior doesn't change much. But it just seems more fair to me.
I think sure there are some things missing. I would suggest most are minor. I classify this as rather minor. It is still better than 90% of the games out there. Considering it is better than 90% of the games out there, that kind of tells you something about pc gaming. But of the 3-4 industry leaders, this game does stand at the top of a genre and more is expected.
It is expected to show others "how it is done" it is suppost to set the bar high, hence the high expectations. It does several things well, not the least of which is guarantee 50+ hours of gaming entertainment with vanilla and assorted mods.
However though it is not a singular effort it is a continuation, and consequently some of its charm is left in STW and MTW, meaning you have probably been playing this RTS, two army battlefield with 4-8 unit armies for awhile.
I fortunately never played MTW, and missed some things, but I dont know what except what I have read, so the Total War series is essentially fresh to me, warts and all. I did play STW but that was several years ago.
What is true however is you can play this game 2-3 weeks, even a month before you start to see holes and then its time to try a few mods and then you have your money worth.
I dont know not everyone is so demanding, especially when so much other games are complete and utter crap.
As far as the weather thats kind of a hard call. I would not like every 3rd battle with heavy rain and every 4th battle with heavy wind. That might be kind of stupid. I mean dont historically armies pretty much wait for decent weather to fight? Sure rain might happen unexpectantly and wind might be extra strong but the continuation of this line of thought is practically endless... ok so wind and rain now what
1) terrain
2) stamina of troops, already factored in but maybe more so
3) food
4) water
5) tiredness, marching before battle, opposed to being attacked
6) sun in your eyes
at some point you just play the game as is, at some point you think of ways maybe it could be better. But to analyze the game and suggest its not worthy of playing is like giving up because of logic.
Where is the logic in killing someone, you just do it. If you think about it to much where would we be? YOur maybe thinking to much about the game. Or maybe another way to put it is instead of thinking of something that is missing, think of it as something which could be added.
But to just think because you came up with something, of which many people can do, makes it correct, is a fallacy. You might have a good idea. Between gaming and history I favor the fun side of gaming. History and realist people are interesting though.
It all comes down to this; It's human nature never to be satisfied and always wanting more and better, hence moving forward and evolving. This is applied to anything and everything, even to the most unimportant of things like this or any other game. You get your hands on RTW, and it's the greatest thing you've ever seen. Few days or weeks into it, you want better. And so you shall get because so do the developers (if not this company, then others out there). Thus, we've come from PacMan to RTW. Because eating dots and fruit weren't enough for the ungrateful masses of the 80's (note the sarcasm. PacMan fans don't come a-knockin ~;) :charge: ).
But for your own sake, don't get too worked up over minor details here and there. It is after all, a game, and can not be perfect to everyone's standards. Of course big issues such as bugs and glitches and all that are inexcusable (I will have their heads for this), but details here and there that don't really affect the gameplay too much can and should be overlooked for the overall enjoyment of the game and yourself.
i want all of those things JJNIP! ~:)
If CA arent listening, then its up to us to mod the damn thing.
Are you all forgetting the 'Clear' weather report in MTW and then 5 mins later you are in a heavy downpour? Do we want a return to the 'it rains in every battle' type weather?
Yeh, it sucks. I was so let down by this game. I very much loved the two previous titles. I really hated the 3D map, and the clumsy movement of the armies. I am probably the only one who thinks this, but the 2D paper maps had a great feel to them, antiquated and strategic, sort of like a chess game. It was clean and it was easy to move. After I acquired some land and a sizable army in Rome TW it became too muddy, and was more of a chore than fun to track stuff. Trying to keep the population happy was ridiculous also. Also it certainly didn't have the music or the atmosphere of shogun and Medieval.
I was so disappointed- Too much like Civ 3. You guys are certainly right with targeting the masses. If anyone agrees with anything I've said, please say so - I can go to my grave with a smile then.
:furious3:
Why does it matter if others agree or not? Go to your grave happy without anyone's approval.
And keep on truckin' :bandana:
Red Harvest
01-25-2005, 21:10
Are you all forgetting the 'Clear' weather report in MTW and then 5 mins later you are in a heavy downpour? Do we want a return to the 'it rains in every battle' type weather?
This annoyance is still in there! Let me illustrate.: They have a detailed strategic map with climates. Weather still cycles through, it only seems to depend on what climate tile you are on. Some areas have no precipitation/windstorms.
1. In the south half of the map there is almost NO weather for some reason. If you do get onto the right tiles you can get sandstorms. If you "wait" for it to be clear, some dust starts to kick up in about 3 to 5 minutes. It will get worse, reach a max, then cycle back down. All of this in the short battle time.
2. Ditto for rainy climates. In most of Gaul and Briton it rains in every battle. Starts clear, then starts cycling through the weather. It is exactly the same as MTW, you can even detect the same micropause as new weather loads.
The main difference between weather in RTW and MTW? It is so muted in RTW as to be nearly inconsequential. Fog doesn't even impact archery ability! I played a lot in light rain before I ever realized it was supposed to be rain. Heavy rain looks like light rain and it effects archery only moderately. The weather effects in MTW and STW were much better both in appearance and in combat.
According to CA the poor weather rendering is part of the engine that they could not duplicate from STW/MTW. I doubt there is any modding we could do to make it different. And we don't have any access to combat factors related weather at the moment. I would love to modify the missile stats for light rain, heavy rain, heavy snow, fog, heavy fog, and sandstorms. But like fire arrows, war cry and many other things we don't have access to some hardcoded effects.
I don't mind the lack of bad weather in RTW. Sure it's not as 'exciting' as it was in MTW but then again it's not nearly as frustrating either. I've fought some battles in rain, snow and sandstorms in RTW so it's not as if it bad weather never happens. Anyway throughout history most armies deliberately avoided fighting in adverse weather conditions because of the lack of vision, the potential effects it could have on terrain and the crippling effect it could have on command and control. It is only with improvements in organization and command and control that commanders have become more tolerant of and able to work around mother nature's fickle ways.
In RTW the only situation where weather should be forced down the gamer's throat is during ambushes and when the player is defending and the AI chooses to fight in bad weather.
I guess I like it the way it is. When it comes down to it there are countless other issues I would rather CA fix and/or tweak than the weather system.
Red Harvest
01-25-2005, 22:30
Mud and marsh would be a welcome addition. That would slow movement to a crawl, disorder units, chariots would get "stuck." Combat would be amusing in the muck... You could anchor a flank with such terrain.
i find it a bit disturbing that they had these effects worked out to a significant degree already in MTW. For some (probably marketing related) reason, they have been "tuned down" or eliminated in RTW...
similarly, the friendly fire is much worse in RTW than MTW... c'me on, i do not find it realistic roman legionaries losing 50% of their units to friendly pila fire...
I seriously doubt that these effects were intentionally "turned down."
Every Total War game from the time of STW, up until MTW:VI was an evolution of a single program. CA have stated many times that RTW is a rewrite. So, while MTW:VI had four releases, and several years to work out all these effects, they have had much less time to get them working in RTW.
Any rewrite of complex software tends to cause an initial drop in quality as many of the old bugs which were fixed in the original pop up in the new version. But, if given enough time and effort, the rewrite will usually end up being much higher quality in the long run. I just hope "the long run" ends up meaning "after this next patch."
It seems like a large group of posters want a more complex game that caters to the hard core TW fanatic from the two previous settings.
However, that is counter to basic business practices. If you market a game only to those who bought your last game, your sales will either stay flat or decline. In order to grow, you have to attract casual gamers and first time customers who won't put up with a 20 hour learning curve.
~:cool:
AntiochusIII
01-26-2005, 01:55
Hmm..... I doubt it would be 20 hours learning, Drewman.
In fact, it would be 100 hours or so... Wait! Don't misunderstand me. This IS cool indeed. You can go into Shogun, look at the map, try kicking(or clicking) around a bit and know everything you need to bring peace(or more blood?) to Japan. Those flanking and slaughtering people in the battle and the campaign alike is just human nature. Nobody needs to learn it. Ha ha ha!
However, after you played for one campaign, you notice may be you shouldn't just ride your Takeda horsemen over the map and rather add a few more monks and archers into your armies. You begin to use tactics NATURALLY. You will not be pressured by the "need" to learn the functions to play like some pathetically complex games. Also, you begin to realize what kind of buildings benefit and such. After several campaigns, you still feel the need to test new knowledges....and kill your foes.
This is what was once in Shogun and Medieval, and also have, to some extent, in Rome. It's just that hardcore players wants to have the same old magnificent experiences of "Oh the ****!! I should've known this long before, now... let me see how the Turks will fare this time." and "The rain is coming! The Mongols are doomed!" or "My soldiers follow my orders exactly, fight bravely, dying reasonably, and are *not being slaughtered by my own men*" feelings.
That won't take the attractive simplicity (for everyone) out of the game. I just want to get the old simple-and-complex(in depth) Total War back. In fact, more and more people who were once simply satisfied with the click and kill of Warcraft and Age of Empires would become new hardcores. I am one of them, as the start...
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