View Full Version : Light and Heavy Cavalary
I am just wondering what are the difference of light calvary and heavy calvary? I know that light calvary are weaker but do they have any other use like faster or slower, same goes to heavy, do the chance of surviving against phalanx higher :dizzy2:
another question is, is it cavalary or cavalry or calvary or carvalry? ~:confused:
Thankyou :bow: :bow: :bow:
Somebody Else
01-26-2005, 18:20
Jesus was supposedly executed on Calvary. Cavalry is made up of lots of funny people on horses.
Thing I want to know is, what's the difference between light and heavy weapons?
Cavalry is made up of lots of funny people on horses.
Funny people like this guy :charge: :dizzy2: , can some one explan clearer
Red Harvest
01-26-2005, 18:52
Cavalry
Light cav is faster in the game. In the files they are listed as "light_horse". These are typically skirmisher type cavalry with javelins are bows.
Med. cav is an "average" speed cav. riging "medium_horse". I believe "heavy_horse" is slightly slower. There may be fatigue effects as well. Higher end cavalry ride heavier horses and have higher stats. I'm not sure that the mount itself has much effect on the performance other than the aforementioned speed.
There are differences in "mass" listed, but I'm not sure how "mass" is being used by the game. The difference is very small for light vs. med/heavy.
I have also seen many horsemen fell during a charge attack on infantry, and by that time they are automatically dead, does it affect wheter you are light or heavy horse, Most of my horsemen died by charging and fell over
Woreczko
01-26-2005, 19:49
AFAIK mass is used to dtermine what happens if 2 soldiers/animals crush with each other. Higher mass gives greater probability of pushing back or even causing your opponents to "fly away" and thus greater ability to disrupt formation.
In MTW, if soldier pushed his enemy back, he gained a considerable advantage in the next combat round, this can be true (and IMHO should) also in RTW.
Red Harvest
01-26-2005, 19:59
AFAIK mass is used to dtermine what happens if 2 soldiers/animals crush with each other. Higher mass gives greater probability of pushing back or even causing your opponents to "fly away" and thus greater ability to disrupt formation.
That is what I thought as well, until I tested it by adjusting the mass of some elephants up and down. I was trying to understand why they couldn't cut through cavalry like butter. Now perhaps I messed up the test...but mass had ZERO impact. Think I'll try it again.
EDIT:
SCRATCH THAT--My previous mod of the mass must not have "taken" when I tested it. I just went back and moved the base level elephant mass up to 99 again from 10. This time the elephants visibly shoved the heavy cavalry out of they way, as they should. I don't think the ratio is high enouhg between them with med/heavy horse at 4.5. So now I need to go in and reduce the mass of light cav from 4 to about 3...and possibly reduce the mass of scythed chariots a bit...and up elephants some more from about 10 to 30 for the forest type (since I am reducing their hit points and the numbers per unit.)
Another thing is that for example
There is a unit of warband just right behind an unit of swordsmen. So i am thinking of charging the Warband via the swordsmen. so i attack through the swordsmen.
What i want to know is do the charge bonus being inflicted on the swordsmen or the warbands. Because i right click on the warband. and since i pass through the swordsmen of course i am gonna be fighting them aswell.
Cavalry
Light cav is faster in the game. In the files they are listed as "light_horse". These are typically skirmisher type cavalry with javelins are bows.
Med. cav is an "average" speed cav. riging "medium_horse". I believe "heavy_horse" is slightly slower. There may be fatigue effects as well. Higher end cavalry ride heavier horses and have higher stats. I'm not sure that the mount itself has much effect on the performance other than the aforementioned speed.
There are differences in "mass" listed, but I'm not sure how "mass" is being used by the game. The difference is very small for light vs. med/heavy.
Light horses are the only ones that have a different speed, being faster than medium, heavy and cataphract horses. While the 3 heavier mounts maybe were intended to have different speeds, they all use the same skeleton model and thus move the same.
I've played custom battles with one of each type of mount and ran 'races' back & forth acorss the field. The light cavalry always wins, while the others are equal, with results being random based based upon the slight variations when a unit obeys orders and starts running. As well as the speed being the same among the 3 heavies, I saw no difference in their fatigue rate, something that makes even less sense with cataphracts.
Red Harvest
01-26-2005, 20:43
Sinner,
I expected as much with the medium/heavy mounts. There is some difference in speed at times in the game with those mounts, but the cause is fatigue from what I can tell. Usually the heavy horse are carrying more armour and fatigue a little more rapidly. That was why I listed the difference as "slight"...I wasn't sure if there was any "real" difference, but put the extra armour on the unit that has the heavy horse, and it seems to slow down a bit sooner, producing some "effective" difference. Of course, you have to mod to make sure the stamina and stat_heat issues are not reversed or it might work backwards again!
What I hate is when 1 of those suicide generals charges my elephants and walks away and since mass was brought up that could be why the elephants get slaughtered. I'm all for the elphants not reviving after battle but when those 21 paccy's came back I had no second thoughts on that one.
Another thing I'd like to see is horses running amok from camels and elephants, the only problem right now is when a unit goes amok they cannot be recovered. Elephants I can understand but horses should be able to recover.
As it is right now cavalry walks all over camels, I unserstand the slow part but the fact that horses can just walk up to them and slaughter em when horses would typically veer away.
Woreczko
01-26-2005, 23:28
That is what I thought as well, until I tested it by adjusting the mass of some elephants up and down. I was trying to understand why they couldn't cut through cavalry like butter. Now perhaps I messed up the test...but mass had ZERO impact. Think I'll try it again.
EDIT:
SCRATCH THAT--My previous mod of the mass must not have "taken" when I tested it. I just went back and moved the base level elephant mass up to 99 again from 10. This time the elephants visibly shoved the heavy cavalry out of they way, as they should. I don't think the ratio is high enouhg between them with med/heavy horse at 4.5. So now I need to go in and reduce the mass of light cav from 4 to about 3...and possibly reduce the mass of scythed chariots a bit...and up elephants some more from about 10 to 30 for the forest type (since I am reducing their hit points and the numbers per unit.)
Heh, I `ve just recently done a test with cataphracts and libyan infantry. Unfortunately I was too lazy to this on vanilla units, but you shoul get the picture.
1. 60 cataphracts mass 6 vs 160 libyans mass 1, ranks 4
Around 15 libyans die in a charge, few catanks get past the formation. After a while catanks lose - ~15 of them is fleeing before ~90 libyans
2. 60 cataphracts mass 12 vs 60 libyans mass 1, ranks 4
WOW! Catanks trample over libyans, as if they were training dummies. ~35 libyans die in a charge and the rest is laying on the ground, scattered somewhat. Their formation is completely messed, they are nicely mixed with catanks. Then in a melee catanks push around individual libyans and win big time - ~35 catanks lost, libyans slain (pursuit). However "pushing power" of the catanks was visibly lesser, then that of war elephants (15 mass), they were, after all, stoppable.
In both of these tests I commanded cataphracts, so i decided to test it in reverse, to see what will happen if libyans stayed in place (AI libyans were moving when I charged)
3. 160 libyans mass 1 vs 60 catanks mass 12
My libyans received enemy charged on "ready" stance. Again most of them was knocked out/down, however only ~15 were killed, the rest bravely stood up and fought. AI decided however to disengage and charge again, so I ceased the test in this moment.
Isn`t it wonderful game?
Red Harvest
01-26-2005, 23:31
What I hate is when 1 of those suicide generals charges my elephants and walks away and since mass was brought up that could be why the elephants get slaughtered. I'm all for the elphants not reviving after battle but when those 21 paccy's came back I had no second thoughts on that one.
Another thing I'd like to see is horses running amok from camels and elephants, the only problem right now is when a unit goes amok they cannot be recovered. Elephants I can understand but horses should be able to recover.
As it is right now cavalry walks all over camels, I unserstand the slow part but the fact that horses can just walk up to them and slaughter em when horses would typically veer away.
Yes, the historical aversion of horses to camels and elephants is only weakly implemented. The way around this is to individually set the mount effect in each of the cavalry units. I've experimented with setting the mount effect to the negative sum of attack plus charge. If you set it to a single value across the board as CA has done, the heavy cav runs roughshod over everything. The values are set to the lowest common denominators: light cav.
Amok doesn't work that well. Amok elephants don't seem to cause much trouble for my own army. They should cause havoc. I don't even spike 'em. I just let them run wild until the battle is over.
Variants of amok for cav would work. Shying away and breaking for a time makes sense--out of human control until they rally. Becoming badly disordered from a repelled charge would also work. I think horses should only be able to charge and melee elephants if they have an approriate training level AND high morale at the time.
The reincarnated elephants are beyond explanation. Any unit with a scarce resource like elephants should not get them back...they shouldn't be replaced without retraining in an appropriate province. Camels might also fall under this heading unless the battle occurs in a camel province, although I could more easily accept the idea that the rider was killed/wounded/dismounted and the mount ran off...only to be recovered after the battle.
About Light and Heavy cavalry.
I don't seem to notice any difference in speed between the Equites and Roman Cavalry. Used both in a number of cavalry actions.
Perhaps camels should rout cavalry very fast, perhaps not instantly (giving the cavalry a chance to rout the cmales with a mighty charge). That should make camels powerful against horses. Right now it is only a rather weak combat bonus.
In all it seems that most heavy units could need a boost in mass (though I have not noticed any particular weakness in Cataphracts). But I think I will only strengthen the elephants in this department. Hate how cavalry can stop them when elephants were cavalry killers big time. But will this not result in the eles being able to break out of an encirclement of infantry? For the sake of balance I would not like for them to be able to break out.
Red Harvest
01-27-2005, 05:02
Kraxis,
The cataphract horses have a mass of 6 vs. 4.5 for the others. Makes sense as they were the heaviest horse around at the time, and were carrying a lot of weight as well.
I haven't tested my new elephants yet. But I'm taking a different slant on it. I want the elephants to be well capable of breaking containment and causing lots of disorder, but not necessarily kill everyone doing so, I want them to be vulnerable if they stay put and melee, and I want them to be vulnerable to missile attack. So I reduce their hit points as much as feasible, give them disruptive punch, but not so much killing power, and with luck make them vulnerable to missile attack. I also am going to cut the unit size in half. I really think I can do this with the current engine and get a realistic elephant attack. (I've been enjoying reading about the disruption of Pyrrhus elephants, Porus' and even the Roman elephants in a couple of battles. They badly disordered phalangites.) As a note, even forest elephants should have at least 4 times the mass of the heaviest horses in the game if not much more.
My radical idea at the moment is to adjust elephant armour vs. hit points with the goal of a single hit point elephant but with substantial "armour" but not so much that an archery barrage can't stop them. I will give them very, very high defensive skill so that cav and infantry, etc. have a tough time killing them. My reasoning is that CA went the wrong route with the elephants. They changed the combat engine to allow a huge range of attack and defense, but instead of using that for things like elephants, they used lots of hit points instead, which completely skews missile vulnerability. So I'm going to see what happens if I take the opposite course.
Another problem with the elephants is that the mahouts(sp)/rider can't be killed but if I remember correctly in the demo you could kill the riders. What Scipio did to Hannibal at Zama was first creat channels for the elephants to run through. The elpephants ran in these channels and Scipio had archers in the rear just for this purpose. The archers shot at the riders kill most/all of them. What this did was caused the riderless elephants to run amok due to having noone controlling them. I do'nt think the arrow barrage was enough to kill any of them but it put them in pain and out of control. The other problem is if you kill 1 rider just that elephant alone ca'nt run amok, it's either the whole unit or not at all.
LOL, this thread become elephant thread. Anyway it is interesting though seeing you guys doing experiment on the unit MASS, but can you guys pleaze :help: :help: :help: me solving the problem as written above.
I write these:
"Another thing is that for example
There is a unit of warband just right behind an unit of swordsmen. So i am thinking of charging the Warband via the swordsmen. so i attack through the swordsmen.
What i want to know is do the charge bonus being inflicted on the swordsmen or the warbands. Because i right click on the warband. and since i pass through the swordsmen of course i am gonna be fighting them aswell."
Thanx
Old Celt
01-27-2005, 15:25
Blitz,
I don't know whether you'd get the charge bonus or not, but charging anything less than war elephants at a unit behind heavy infantry is really an attempt to throw away your cavalry unit, and is not a good idea. The cavalry would lose momentum from collision with the first unit, get stuck, and swarmed by infantry on all sides.
No Wonder my horsemen died so many =.=, i mean i keep doing it because i was hoping they will just crash those infantry ^ ^, well of course some died but they sometimes got stuck while sometimes they pass through maybe because i have superior number of horsemen.
ONe more Question ^ ^
What do wedge do, i know it make the triangle formation, but i realized that if i use normal formation they tend to get better result as in kills and death, so do wedge actually help?
I believe there was some testing on Wedge, and despite the fact that it does not punch as much into units it did seem to be better... I have just not seen any instances of it.
Old Celt
01-27-2005, 16:46
The wedge formation brings the best individuals to the front, the tip of the spear, so to speak. Cavalry had a supporting role at this time in history. Horses were expensive. The main uses were to drive off enemy cavalry first, then execute flanking or rear attacks on infantry units that are already engaged by your infantry. When the enemy begins to rout, the cavalry can chase them down. Units like armored elephants can make and survive frontal charges, but the same principle applies that they are best used to hit the enemy flanks. Even elephants get killed once they stop in a swamp of enemy infantry and can't manuever.
Light Cavalry will tend to be somewhat faster and will tire less quickly than Heavy Cavalry. They are best used for pursuing routing enemies as well as charging into enemy missile units. In a pinch, they can be used to charge the enemy battle line, but preferable from the rear or the flanks, and should be withdrawn and recharged or they will get bogged down and killed quickly due to a lack of any substantial armor or shield to keep them alive. Also they tend to much cheaper to produce and have a lower upkeep.
Heavy Cavalry will be somewhat slower and will not be as quick as their counterparts. However they will tend to have a much higher attack rate and will also often have a much better amount of armor or even a shield as well, allowing them to survive better should they get mired in a standing battle. They are best used to also charge the flanks and rear, but can also withstand a charge to the front, but with suitably less spectacular results. Being so effective, they are very expensive to raise, sometimes taking two turns to train, and have a higher upkeep cost.
Medium Cavalry take aspects of both Light and Heavy Cavalry, making them able to perform either the role of either but with relatively average results for a medium cost.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.