Armor Upgrades

[Bobablooie]

Hello fellow forum-ers!
A question about when I build armores and armorer's guilds, esp as a Muslim faction.
When I upgrade a unit's armor, does that negatively impact its performance in the desert? For instance, JHI have armor stats IIRC that allow them to fight in the desert without cooking, but it is possible to "over-armor" them to the point that they suffer in the heat? If so, which other Turkish/ :sultan: Muslim units should I be wary of up-armoring if I plan to fight in desert climes?

[English assassin]

I believe armour stats gained through armourers have exactly the same effect as being armoured in the unit description (if you see what I mean). So up-armouring a unit does affact its performance in the desert just as it would if it was armoured to start with. Up armouring an already armoured unit gets a double effect. I thought JHI were heavily armoured though.

Personally, if I can I leave a province or two without armour upgrades to create troops for the desert, and obviously I try not to take troops who start off with heavy armour anyway. Its nice to have a "proper" desert army but its not especially worth worrying about to the Nth degree, there just aren't enough desert battles to be worth a major bother.

[el_slapper]

I tend to have a light army dedicated for those duties, but no more than that. Just highlanders in great cuantity plus archers plus light cav. Those are well in the desert even with armor upgrades. And if I'm really annoyed, then I autosim ~D

[ichi]

My experience is that units start to feel the heat at armor level 5; at 4 and below they seem to do OK. At 5 I have to be very careful with them and while they last a while they end up exhausted. Above 5 and they really suffer.

EA plays the way I do - keep a couple provinces armor free or armor light and use them for desert duty. I also use a lot of unarmored troops that I bribed or bought as mercs in the sandy lands.

ichi :bow:

[CherryDanish]

Armour upgrades do count against you in desert combat, it's good to keep most of your desert warfare units lightly armoured, but always include units that you plan on using quickly and then withdrawing that have a significant punch. I like to keep some heavy cav on hand to overrun light infantry and challenge enemy horse. My general tactics involve trying to generate as many enemy casualties as possible to weaken morale, then withdraw the troops who did most of the killing. This tactic is easily countered by armies that employ camels in vast numbers, but the AI isn't bright enough to adapt to my tactics. Some northern units like Huscarles seem to fade even faster than similarly armoured units. One tip, always remember that valour and weapon upgrades have no negative impact in the desert. Fatuwa units are lethal desert warfare units. Hashashin are similarly lethal when employed effectively.

[Bobablooie]

OK, so if I understand you all correctly:

JHI start out with a basic armor level of 3. If I build an armorer in their province, then they have a starting armor of 4, and so forth. Therfore, I guess I need to keep track of where I have my armories/guilds, etc., so that I don't over-armor my desert fighters?

Of course, Ghazis, with a starting armor level of 1, can go up to gold armor (+4) and still be unaffected adversely?
Thanks.

[Bobablooie]

On additional question:
Does up-armoring a unit then make it susceptible to anti-armor units/missiles?
One of the benefits of, say Ghazis, is their ability to rush arbs, etc., without getting hit with too many missles. If they're too up-armored, are they then vulnerable?

[ichi]

Bob with each armor upgrade the units tire faster, so while a unit with armor 4 can be managed to work well in the desert, a unit of naked Ghazis will last longer - maybe even be able to run around a little. Run a unit with with 4 or 5 and they tire out, run one with 6 or 7 and they prolly won't recover.

Regarding the armor-piercing dealio, the way I understand it the increase in armor actually increases the effectiveness of armor-piercing weapons, but this is based on one post I read a long time ago. My guess is that Yuuki or Ludens knows.

ichi :bow:

[Ludens]

Does up-armoring a unit then make it susceptible to anti-armor units/missiles?
There seem to be a lot of misunderstanding about the AP bonus. The short answer to your question is: yes, units with AP abilities have an attack bonus against armoured units, but this bonus is never greater then the defence bonus conferred by the armour.

Now the long answer: the AP bonus is not a set bonus, but depends on the armour (inherent + upgrades, but not shield bonus) of the unit. Is calculated as [attack bonus] = ([target armour] - 1)/2, rounded DOWN.

So supposing you had a unit with armour = 2 and one armour upgrade (total armour = 2 + 1 = 3), the attack bonus for an AP unit will be (3 - 1)/2 = 1. The armour upgrade give the defending unit +1 defence, so these two cancel each other out. The armour upgrade has made your unit neither more nor less vulnerable to AP units. If you add another armour upgrade to it, the attack bonus for an AP unit will still be 1 [(4 - 1)/2 = 1.5 = 1], but your unit has +2 defence due to the armour upgrades, so your unit is actually better protected, even against AP units. If you add yet another armour upgrade (total armour = 2 + 3 = 5), the AP bonus becomes +2 against +3 defence by the extra armour. Adding the final armour upgrade (total armour = 2 + 4 = 6) gives +4 additional defence against +2 AP bonus to attack. So the unit will never be more vulnerable to AP units.
(Mind that this is just a example for a unit with an inherent armour of 2. If the inherent armour is different, the AP bonus kicks in at different levels of upgrade. Also, against cavalry the formula is slightly different, because a horse counts as +1 armour. The AP formula against cavalry is [attack bonus] = ([target armour] - 2)/2.)

Conclusion: whether an additional armour upgrade has an effect against an AP unit depends the exact armour levels of the defending unit, but it will never make your unit more vulnerable to AP units.

Now this is for melee AP units; ranged attacks work differently. Here too the game makes a comparison between the attack stat ('lethality') of the projectile and the armour stat of its target, provided, of course, that the projectile hits someone. Arrows from experienced archers are not more deadly, but they are more likely to hit. However, I do not know how the AP ability works for missiles. All I do know is that all missile weapons have an 'armour mod' stat. Non-AP weapons have a stat of 1, AP missiles have a stat between 1 and 0 and artillery has a stat of 0. My guess is that the armour of the unit is multiplied with the armour mod value before it is compared to the attack stat of the projectile, but whether there is a minimum threshold value like with the melee AP ability, and if and how it is rounded I do not know.