Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

[Spino]

A few people over at the Com and TWC have brought to light a HUGE bug which affects mounted bow equipped units (chariots included). Apparently mounted archer units cannot properly fire their missiles while galloping ('running') towards or away from an enemy!

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=20725.topic

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20731

Some choice quotes...


I just discovered something real strange in custom battles after patch 1.2 is applied. Missile cav can not shoot on the move now. Instead there's animation of the archer getting ready to aim and fire but no arrow comes out. even though the unit card says they are firing, animation is moving, but no arrow is being shot out. they are only shoot while stationary or in cantabrian circle.


I have the exact same problem. I was in the middle of a Scythian campaign and could take down pretty much any infantry army of any size with just a couple of horse archers. After the patch they get chased around for ages by the enemy and never get a shot off. Sometimes they do shoot but no arrows fly, just the sound. During a siege the enemy would sally out of the front gate and would have to get within javelin range before they would start getting killed. It seems like maybe they messed with the range. As it stands, they're about as useless as HA in MTW--they run before they get a shot off.


Even after they halt, the arrows fail for one cycle.


Well, it's not entirely gone.
Just tested a battle of scythian horse arches vs peasants -
They do fire as they used to while in Canterbarian circle
they also shoot while riding at slow speed, although firerate seemed very slow
they do NOT fire while running, and therefore not while moving away in "skirmish mode"

I've verified this bug myself in a few custom battles.

CA may have a two patch deal with Activision but this is a big bug. We'd better start screaming our heads off now and demand a fix otherwise it'll be a looooong wait until the expansion comes out.

[Sam Adams]

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

[sapi]

yes, but it still fired, didn't it
screams!

[Colovion]

excellent, maybe now there can be a third patch to fix the few things that were missed? ie: campaign map replays etc...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I am absolutely sure that I was just shot at by galloping Pontos Missle Cavalry (in 1.2, no mods). They had one or two units left, and I was chasing their missle cav with a general and my javelin cavalry. They were not routing, but were running away from me. I saw the little 'being fired upon' icon over my general and zoomed in. There were no other units around, and my javelins were out of missles. I just happened to be right in tight on their cavalry when they spun around in their seats, lifted their bows and fired at me (behind them) at a full gallop. A second or two later they routed when my guys caught up with them. I don't think my guys died, so I can't confirm that the shots killed anyone, but i saw them shoot just a few minutes ago. I was playing as Seleukids. Dunno if there are problems elsewhere, but i'm just saying what I saw. I can't confirm the cantabrian circle or any of that other stuff either.

Can't try to retest this now. Gotta get some sleep.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Lest someone doubt. Instead of "spun around", probably "twisted at the waist" would be more accurate for what they did. Some clown will say "see! he's lyin'!"

[Colovion]

I did a test:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/colovion/fonz.jpg

Seems like they're all sitting out there going "heeeey" like the Fonz with their bows (this was with them walking BTW). THey'd do that for a while and then one or two of them would fire and then they'd gallop away to do that again. I used about as many arrows as in MTW and eventually got fed up and charged into the enemy, losing some of my valuable horse archers.

:*(

[CeltiberoMordred]

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

[HicRic]

I've run some tests and I've sometimes heard an occasional arrow being fired (only about two or three from a unit), however, I haven't been able to see if an arrow has been fired or not.

Most likely it seems the cause for this is the FF fix; the horse archers are now judging that the chance of hitting one of their companions is too great and so they don't fire!

Celtibero Mordred, I'll have to take a look at that. It seems strange that they can run and shoot only with skirmish mode turned off, seeing as they could to it fine before! It'd be really annoying to have to do this, as it means even more micromanagement.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Try it and you will see I am right

[The_Emperor]

That means I'll be screwed playing as the Parthians... The greater bulk of their armies (especially early on) are going to be Horse Archers, and there is no way I can micro them all by turning skirmish OFF.

This seems to be a bug as my Parthians did have trouble with them all lifting their bows and then deciding to lower them again without shooting.

[Red Harvest]

Haven't tried it yet. Sounds like a bug to me. One of the improvements of RTW had been the horse archers.

[SpencerH]

While we may be able to take HA off skirmish, will the AI? I doubt it. AI controlled HA will be useless.

[hellenes]

Well i will have two installations of RTW one 1.2 for non HA factions and one 1.1 for Parthia, Armenia Scythia, while in the online aspect the HA factions will diminish as the Mongols in MTW VI...

Hellenes

[Doug-Thompson]

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me, but even I have to admit that HA in the unpatched game were overpowered.

Now I hope they haven't been nerfed. I've had about zero RTW since going out of town on business.

[_Aetius_]

I used some horse archers yesterday, and they were firing on the move, as were as far as i could tell the enemy chariots.

[Red Harvest]

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.

Funny thing about it prepatch was that HA's were one of the few archer units that I only very slightly nerfed in 1.1. I heavily nerfed the regular archers on range and missile attack. The problem was in the AI countering them (bringing the right armies to the field, and fighting them properly), not in their ability. Note that it won't matter much for AI vs. AI because those will be autocalc'ed anyway.

[Orda Khan]

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

Really? I would be very interested in the source of this information, considering it contradicts all the reports that I have read on the subject of Horse Archery among the many peoples of the Asiatic Steppes.

I do not agree with Celtibero Mordred's statement about accuracy either. So you now have no FAW while skirmishing away from enemy? Why then would the mode be called 'skirmish' if they clearly do not 'skirmish'???

I waited ages for 'realistic' horse archers [ firing on the move, Parthian shot etc ] we had them finally and now CA have dropped another one.

Oh well I guess RTW will stay on my shelf

.......Orda

[Spino]

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

No, it's not realistic and it's a bonafide bug. Why? Historically nomadic peoples of the steppes were notoriously good with a bow in the saddle, regardless of whether they were shooting while at a gallop, trot, walk or standing still. Call it the result of spending several hours a day on the back of a horse or pony since the time you could walk.

But the worst part about this bug is now the AI is royally SCREWED when using any kind of mounted archer units, especially horse archers. The AI never turns off Skirmish mode for these units unless they run out of ammo and can charge a weak or routing unit. Essentially any AI army with horse archers will now be a pushover for a human controlled army with cheap cavalry. Since the Parthian Shot is also nerfed by this bug your cavalry can eventually charge into their rear or flank without losing any men to arrows.

In one fell swoop Parthia, Armenia and Scythia have been effectively declawed by this ridiculous bug.

[Steppe Merc]

God! Why can't the people at CA get anything right? This is pathetic!


i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.
Wrong.

Of course it's not realistic, and it had better be a bug, and they had better fix it fast. I'm sick and tired of this crap.

[hoom]

Sounds like a bug induced by the fixing of the friendly fire bug to me.

[Mr Frost]

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me...
Guess you never met Magyar Khan then ~:)

[Doug-Thompson]

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.




Yep. Put in the patch today and did a 1 on 1 battle with a spear unit.

It's exactly like javelin troops in MTW. Left on skirmish, they'll never fire -- except the HA can fire with Cantabrian circle.

So, Cantabrian circle may have a point now.

The HA got exhausted and couldn't run away though. Fatigue will be a big factor.

This change is sure a heavy hit to HA, but all is not lost. I'm sure that two HA working together can still decimate a phalanx. In fact, the AI should start chasing the one firing -- which means they will stop chasing the skirmishing one that stop firing, which can start firing again.

[Steppe Merc]

But what about the AI? They never use the Cantabrianian Circle!
Also, I never use it, as it's ahistorical and I think it sucks.

How dare you call yourself a horse archer fan, and not think this is horrible.

(Just kidding. ~;) )

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part).i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
:charge: Light Cav. is my army made of!!! :charge: HAHAHAHAHAH!! :charge:

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part) unplayebale.i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
:charge: Light Cav. is my army made of!!! :charge: HAHAHAHAHAH!! :charge:

[Doug-Thompson]

Oh, it's definitely horrible, Steppe Merc. :bow: It's just not proven to be the complete, unmitigated disaster that it appears to be.

If there aren't any good tactics to offset these changes, THEN it's completely horrible.

The frustrating thing is that I can't get any playtime until weekends now, and it's limited then.

[RJV]

OK, I'm not normally in favour of baiting the developers, especially when the majority of what they have delivered seems well received, but this....???? True, the Human player can get round the (lack of) functionality to some extent through some unwanted micromanagement, but will the AI be able to cope? I doubt it.

Can't see why it should be the FF fix that has done it (though I don't know the code obviously) as from what people have said it happens when there are no other friendlies around. Consequently, one can only assume it's a deliberate change in the HA combat routines. But WHY have they done it?

I think in this case some CA contribution would be of value to the community. And to the community as a whole - if we do get some comments, don't flame the hell out of them before they get started...

Cheers,

Rob.

[Red Harvest]

I think we've found RTW's equivalent of the "King dies at 56" bug.

[TigerVX]

I think its more an implementation then a bug. I tested with Parthian HA's today, and found some interesting results. I tried the Persian Cavalry, they used the parthian shot effectively and like normal. Then I tried regular HA's, they didn't use it at all. This leads me to believe that only your elite HA's can actually use the Parthian shot.

[hrvojej]

After some testing I think that this might not be a FF issue. It would seem that HA fire *once per order*. In other words, order them to move somewhere, and they'll fire a volley. Then issue another move order, and they'll fire the second volley, regardless of where they are with respect to the enemy. If it was a FF issue they either wouldn't fire the volleys properly, or it would depend on where they are relative to the enemy. This is why it seems that switching the skirmish mode off seems to fix it - then you have to babysit them and constantly issue orders, each of which is followed by a volley. Skirmish OTOH moves them away, but the animation cycle is so long it gets interrupted when they pause after being far enough (or something to that effect, or they don't fire at all any more, I'm not sure here), so they have to start the animation over, hence they effectively fire only when standing still. They'll fire the parthian shot while being chased by the cavalry, but they won't continue firing after that and decimate the pursuers that will never be able to catch them - instead, you'll have to babysit them if you want them to massacre cavalry pursuers.
I've run 20 or so tests with different angles and velocities, and this basically came out as the only valid conclusion. I haven't tested much against cavalry though, mostly against levy pikemen.

So, IMO it's a "tweak". Do I like it - heck no!!! but I think this is how it works. Can anybody confirm this?

[hrvojej]

I've just run a few more custom battles, this time with cavalry - one unit of greek cav vs. one unit of HA. And it's a disgrace - not a single GC man got shot by the HA in the 5 battles I did! Those animation cycles are too long for the HA to take the parthian shot or whatever, but it's definitely not to my liking.

On a side note, it seems I still need to alt-charge the cataphracts for them to switch to maces later. I though that was supposed to be fixed?!

[Doug-Thompson]

This is sounding worse all the time.

One thing to keep in mind is that infantry definitely makes better use of its shield while on the march. That bug's definitely been fixed -- which means spear units are even more invulnerable to the weakened HA. I was barely able to kill anything unless my unit was firing into their backsides.

[Doug-Thompson]

But the worst part about this bug is now the AI is royally SCREWED when using any kind of mounted archer units, especially horse archers. The AI never turns off Skirmish mode for these units unless they run out of ammo and can charge a weak or routing unit.

Sadly, this appears to be quite true.

Did a custom battle on Syrian fields, hard difficulty. I had a phalanx of levy pikemen. The enemy was one unit of Parthian HA. I clicked an attack, hit fast forward and let it run.

The phalanx chased the HA all over the map and was never even fired at.

[AquaLurker]

I don't think it is a tweak or anything of that sort, here is the result of what I had found with some tests.

Horse archers don't fire at all when not in CTB circle, in skirmish mode.

Horse archers don't fire at all when not in CTB circle, with skirmish mode off.

Horse archers only fire when in CTB circle, skirmish mode on and off.

Horse archers only fire when standing still.

Personally in my opinnion, this is a critical bug for horse archers factions. Hope CA will address this issue asap so that the players could finally get a propper game. Overall I feel that they have done a good job with the new patch but then again they miss this one out. It must have been really crappy for them to find it out now..from us the fans...

[hrvojej]

They do fire. Walk them in front of a phalanx so they have time to do the animation. Once they let off the volley, give them a new move (walk) order. They'll fire again. It's just that it all adds up to nothing in the fast pace of the battle, for it doesn't matter that they fire in "controlled tests" when they don't do %#@$ when it counts (especially when controlled by the AI!!).

[Red Harvest]

Too bad we can't set the range that they withdraw to before they try to fire. Perhaps we can use one of the speed adjustment hacks to increase their fire rate slightly so that they can get off a shot after each time they pull back and stop. I tried moving the "charge range" down from 40 to 30 but it had no impact. Still won't help vs. other cav though...

We might have to give them armour piercing as a bit of compensation. It wouldn't effect unarmoured and I don't think it would effect shields, but it would give them a bit of leverage on the heavies. I wouldn't do this for the higher missile stat HA's just the basic ones.

[Sam Adams]

"Horse archers only fire when standing still."

gee, imagine that, reality.

[Red Harvest]

"Horse archers only fire when standing still."

gee, imagine that, reality.

Maybe your "reality" but not historical reality.

[Sam Adams]

you try shooting an arrow accuratly from a gallopping horse.

[Red Harvest]

you try shooting an arrow accuratly from a gallopping horse.

I don't have to, but the Scythians and Parthians did.

[Sam Adams]

from a gallop? no, they didnt.

[HogDog]

from a gallop? no, they didnt.
Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop. This is a bug that will cripple AI controlled Parthia and Scythia, I remember CA saying that HA will be able to shoot while moving. 1st we pay $54 for a game loaded with bugs then they give us a patch that takes away allot of the minor bug and replace it with a major bug.

[Attalus]

RH is right Sam. LOT's of cultures used HAs...Japanese, Armenians, Scythians and the Mongols to name a few...
And they were quite accurate. Maybe not hit a flea in the left eye accurate, but 100 HAs don't need to be.

You can even join a modern club!
http://www.intlhorsearchery.org/about_us.htm

But it's off topic anyhoo...the fact remains.

They are broken.

And CA says no more patches.

If I am not mistaken...(and I'm not) several .org moderators have appeared in Total War game credits since day dot (dot -3 in fact ~;)

They have contacts.

They speak to people.

You know...people with names like...erm..I don't know, lets say...erm Jerome for example.

I seem to remember also a certain officer with marine trousers, posting this:



~:grouphug:


Lets see if'n they meant it.

Over to you Erado-sama, TosaInu and CBR.

(oops, was that to much?) ~:cheers:

[Sam Adams]

"Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop." I believe that would be a legend. Or more accuratly a misenterpreted part of the basic tactic: fall back, turn around, shoot, continue falling back, turn around shoot, which is how mounted and unmounted skirmishers have fought for thousands of years.

to fire backwards from a galloping horse is just something you cant imagine happening on any large scale. You cannot hold reigns and fire(or reload) at the same time. Even if you do get a shot off, its likely to be wildly inaccurate.

certainly this is true: any aimed weapon is much less effective while its mount is moving.

[Red Harvest]

Some of these folks didn't even use reins... the Numidians were doing the same sort of thing with a javelin. But anyway, you are never going to believe it so :wall: I've seen people do amazing things on horseback.

And even the lesser test you propose of halting doesn't work anymore in RTW. They halt but don't manage to get off the shot...at least not in most cases. It is busted.

[Bartman]

RH is right Sam. LOT's of cultures used HAs...Japanese, Armenians, Scythians and the Mongols to name a few...
And they were quite accurate. Maybe not hit a flea in the left eye accurate, but 100 HAs don't need to be.

You can even join a modern club!
http://www.intlhorsearchery.org/about_us.htm
Interesting site. I was kind of on the fence about the accuracy of firing while moving, but the photos on that site convinced me.

BTW, it said the History Channel was filming at their festival last year. Any idea when they will be doing a show about it?

[Crownsteler]

i haven't seen it in this topic, but are javalin cavalry effected by this?

[Mr Frost]

"Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop." I believe that would be a legend. Or more accuratly a misenterpreted part of the basic tactic: fall back, turn around, shoot, continue falling back, turn around shoot, which is how mounted and unmounted skirmishers have fought for thousands of years.

to fire backwards from a galloping horse is just something you cant imagine happening on any large scale. You cannot hold reigns and fire(or reload) at the same time. Even if you do get a shot off, its likely to be wildly inaccurate.

certainly this is true: any aimed weapon is much less effective while its mount is moving.

Of course it would be if any of us tried it , but then none of us have grown up practising extensivly in drill and play every day since the age of five , practically living in a saddle , having to hunt our own food just to survive {most horse nomad cultures insist their young adolescents prove themselves in tests of solo survival as a way to weed out the weak} and being expected to paricipate fully in open warefare from as young as 14 .

Those horse archers were terrifically skilled by todays soft standards . That there are still some people today whom have gathered the skills to perform those feats without even close to the same level of teaching {where you going to find an entire tribe of master horse archers to immerse a kid in today ?} or pressure {those historical Horse Archers' lives depended on their skills , and not just in war , it isn't easy to get enough food each day to feed entire families on the Steppes without modern technology , hunting was vital and very demanding of skill} should give some indication of what people raised immeresed in the skills and associated traditions could really do .

The Mongols would place three arrows between the fingers of their bow hand , notch a fourth and fire twice when they charged , once as they wheeled away and again over their shoulders as they rode away . They would then prepare another selection of arrows to do it again .
Control of the horse was with their knees .

Just because you couldn't ever manage it , doesn't mean many didn't .
Had you lived in such a tribe you might have picked it up naturally being born into it , or merely died young due to ineptitude which was rather common back then . Entire armies of men {and some women} did master the skills and were so effective in their ideal terrain that the only time conventional armies could beat them was when posessed of some remarkable advantage such as overwhelming numbers or a towering genius like Alexander to command them .

The bug is a serious problem that needs fixing .

[hrvojej]

The bottom line is, it matters little to me whether they were able to do this IRL or not. The fact is that the HA I use in the game and the AI-controlled HA in particular have become barely usable (to say the least). As the things are now, they may as well be unarmed or have to dismount each time before they shoot. At least in STW/MTW they had faster animations/were faster relative to other units/didn't skirmish so erratically, and they managed to fire a volley now and then.... :furious:

Can any of the people from the .org who participated in patch beta testing comment on this? Did we guess the crux of the issue correctly? Is there (or will there be) anything that can be done about it?

[CeltiberoMordred]

After some testing I think that this might not be a FF issue. It would seem that HA fire *once per order*. In other words, order them to move somewhere, and they'll fire a volley. Then issue another move order, and they'll fire the second volley, regardless of where they are with respect to the enemy. If it was a FF issue they either wouldn't fire the volleys properly, or it would depend on where they are relative to the enemy. This is why it seems that switching the skirmish mode off seems to fix it - then you have to babysit them and constantly issue orders, each of which is followed by a volley. Skirmish OTOH moves them away, but the animation cycle is so long it gets interrupted when they pause after being far enough (or something to that effect, or they don't fire at all any more, I'm not sure here), so they have to start the animation over, hence they effectively fire only when standing still. They'll fire the parthian shot while being chased by the cavalry, but they won't continue firing after that and decimate the pursuers that will never be able to catch them - instead, you'll have to babysit them if you want them to massacre cavalry pursuers.
I've run 20 or so tests with different angles and velocities, and this basically came out as the only valid conclusion. I haven't tested much against cavalry though, mostly against levy pikemen.

So, IMO it's a "tweak". Do I like it - heck no!!! but I think this is how it works. Can anybody confirm this?


I did more test and I have to say you are right, that's what happens, and the reason why they do fire when they are in skirmish mode off. I'm afraid we will have to use cantabrian circle more often now.

At least horse/chariots archers haven't become useless (they weren't in previous TW): they can shoot standing still, and while moving under certain circumstances... But yes, it's annoying. CA said 1.2 would be the last patch, so let's hope they finally release a small unnofficial fix for this issue before the expansion pack.

[cunctator]

I have only tested the roman javelin cavalry, but they are ok.

[Puzz3D]

I just tried Armenian horse archers in RTW v1.2, and they work fine in skirmish while being chased by enemy cav. They gallop away from the enemy cav which is chasing them and fire backward at the pursuing cav and get kills. I can see the arrows as they are released, and the unit fires multiple times while continuously running. Once they far enough ahead of the pursuers, which in this case were Companion cav, the horse archer stops and turns to shoot. They don't have enough time to set up and shoot before they have to start skirmishing back away from the galloping Companion cav. This seems ok.

I just tried Parthian horse archers, and they also work correctly able to fire backwards while on the move in skirmish mode.

[Nelson]

Sorry, but I don't think HA are broken at all. The devs expect you to use the special ability is all.

The cantabrian circle is great! Horse archers are devastating from the circle. They do everything you guys seem to want from the circle formation.

So what's wrong with using the cantabrian circle? I don't get it. The animations in the circle have the men shooting from all sorts of angles. The Parthian shot is there. I just tested it myself. When I took 54 Scythian HA against 80 Armenian hillmen, the hillmen chased them all over the map and only lost 7 men until I put the HA into the circle. VOILA! The circling HA shot the hillmen to pieces while constantly maintaining their distance and shooting continuously. When I ordered the HA to melee (turned off skirmish and CC) to finish off the last 7 hillmen, they fired as they charged and drew swords at the last moment. Perfect!

Cantabrian circle IS the answer. Use it.

[hrvojej]

Does the AI use cantabrian circle? If they want to force us to use the CC, they at least could have made the AI to do the same...

[Ashen]

im afraid that anyone saying "Its like a new feature" and Mordred talking about skirmish mode are forgetting a few things, such as the fact that us forum users make up around what? 1% of all Total War players?

Most people will not know how to get round this, especially as its a feature in the games manual stating that cav archers will fire on the move automatically.

Saying that its not a problem for you is being short sighted and downright stupid like all those idiots on .com saying that no new patch will ever be needed.

For that matter CA, how about some badly needed rebalancing? Sod the small bugs, the fact egypt can beat anything with an army made of 2 different units is a serious enough bug for me.

[SpencerH]

Sorry, but I don't think HA are broken at all. The devs expect you to use the special ability is all.

The cantabrian circle is great! Horse archers are devastating from the circle. They do everything you guys seem to want from the circle formation.

So what's wrong with using the cantabrian circle? I don't get it. The animations in the circle have the men shooting from all sorts of angles. The Parthian shot is there. I just tested it myself. When I took 54 Scythian HA against 80 Armenian hillmen, the hillmen chased them all over the map and only lost 7 men until I put the HA into the circle. VOILA! The circling HA shot the hillmen to pieces while constantly maintaining their distance and shooting continuously. When I ordered the HA to melee (turned off skirmish and CC) to finish off the last 7 hillmen, they fired as they charged and drew swords at the last moment. Perfect!

Cantabrian circle IS the answer. Use it.

Great, we can use cantabrian circle when fighting one HA unit against 1 foot unit! Personally, I've never had a battle like that and when I've used CC in a big battle I found them to be unwieldy due to the space taken up by each unit, likely to be cut off and eliminated piecemeal, and therefore generally useless. So, I have to wonder how many times you've used it in a large battle?

[Steppe Merc]

Cantabrian circle sucks, and is ahistorical for horse archers. I've never used it. More importantly, the AI never uses. It is a game killer, and exteremly ahistorical, and I'm tired of all the people saying it isn't.
I'm even more sick of CA... they release crap like this, and people take it from them.

[Crownsteler]

:rolleyes:

i'm sure modders will be able to fix this, as javalin cavalry still works properly, so it shouldn't be to difficult to fix

[Puzz3D]

I just tried Armenian horse archers vs Sacred Band inf, and there is a problem that doesn't seem to happen when skirmishing against cav. I notice that when the HA skirmish to a safe distance they slow down and try to fire a volley while still facing away. Against cav in my previous tests this works and arrows are fired, but against the pursuing infantry unit no arrows are fired eventhough there is a full animation cycle and the sound of arrows being fired. Then the HA turn to face the infantry unit, but there usually isn't enough time to shoot before they have to skirmish away again. At this point, HA will often release a volley as they accelerate away from a cav unit, but I don't see any arrows fired at the persuing inf unit in the test.

This will be presented to CA as a serious issue. I don't know if we'll see another patch or not.

[Simetrical]

i'm sure modders will be able to fix this, as javalin cavalry still works properly, so it shouldn't be to difficult to fixIt would probably be very easy to fix—if we had access to the decompiled executable. We don't. We can't effectively edit RTW.exe, and that's where the problem is.

-Simetrical

[Sam Adams]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

[Spino]

Vrabac over at TWC has noticed something odd about the firing animation for ALL archer units...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20693&st=12


I tried the javelin armed cavalry and they seem to work fine. On the other hand, I noticed that archers in general now aim higher. So maybe this is connected somehow? Javelinmen look exactly the same, only the javelins seem to travel in a more deep trajectory. But archers actually have slightly changed animation, so maybe that's where all the horse-archer problems come from? Also, i noticed that horse archers often lean back when refusing to shoot. Maybe it really has something to do with skeletons? Perhaps if you can somehow return old ones?
I think this merits further investigation...

[BassV2]

tell me, your horse is galloping at full speed, you don't hold on to it and instead u shoot a bow and arrow accurately?

[Steppe Merc]

Good lord. Please stop! You don't know anything about the steppe do you?
Horses can be controlled easily by only with your legs. These were the best.
YOU ARE WRONG. PLEASE STOP!
And bows are way more accurate than guns on horse back. Besides, I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today.

Frankly, if you don't know what you talking about, don't tell us this. Because we want it fixed, and don't try and stop us from playing a good game. I'm sick of all the ignorant comments.

[QwertyMIDX]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

[Sam Adams]

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

[Doug-Thompson]

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

Major Hawker, Royal Flying Corps, became an ace in 1915 by wiring a bolt-action rifle to his crate's fuselage at a 45-degree angle to the line of flight, so the rounds fired wouldn't hit the propeller.

French WWI Ace Rene Foch was able to shoot down aircraft with as few as seven rounds fired. Canadian ace Billy Bishop wrote in his memoirs that the target to hit was the upper half of the pilot's body. Bishop was also a master of the "head-on" shot, relying on his superior marksmanship and nerve.

While it is true that forward firing machine guns help, your statement that "you can't shoot(accurately) while moving" is false on its face, otherwise nothing would ever have been shot down in three-dimensional air-to-air combat with guns, sometimes at closing speeds of several hundred of miles per hour with simple optical sights.

===========

If horse archers stopped before they fired, then everyone would have had horse archers. It would not have required any special skill. The practice would not have been confined to Parthia and eastwards.

It should also be mentioned that Mongol light cavalry carried two bows: one for when they did dismount, one for shooting from horseback.

==========

The website already listed on this thread shows people taking archery shots at a gallop. It contains an well-verified account of a guy shooting at a wildcat in Florida from the back of a galloping horse. On his first attempt ever to shoot from a gallop, he missed only because he led the target, forgetting that he was moving too.

============

Texas Rangers perfected the technique of charging in with pistols, the original Colt revolvers and their imitators.

[CBR]

Of course horsearchers could shoot while moving fast. Is it as accurate as when standing still? no. Are horsearchers as accurate as foot archers? no. But they still did it. We have lots of written accounts about it and if you doubt all of that then look at the competitions they do today.

I found this video in a TWC thread: http://www.streamload.com/horsearcher/EL/7K9WWAREIM/horse_archery.wmv The last half of it shows it can be done.

The Cantabrian Circle (mainly used by javelin armed cavalry IIRC) is basically same principle: Move in close, shoot and move out. You are moving fast to present a difficult target and close in to get some good shots and quickly move away to reduce the danger.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.

You make sweeping statements that contradict historical reports, so again I ask you to produce some source. There are many ways to make a point but all I have seen is your 'opinion' rather than 'factual report'.

Obviously you choose to ignore the many battle reports of those who actually came into contact with these people

.......Orda

[Steppe Merc]

Has anyone tested out Qwerty's fix?

And thank you Doug, CBR, and Orda. :bow:

[Harald the ROCK]

And this was the last patch they were going to make... :charge:

[lars573]

I guess the morale of this story is be careful what you wish for. Ironic that fixing friendly fire broke horse archers. :dizzy2:

[DwarvenPony]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

It seemed to work well for me, unless there is some side effect i didn`t notice. This would have to be done with all the missile chariots and elephants to, right? (Actually I did a small test with the elephants and they seemed to work correctly as it is.) I don`t have much experience in modding, so maybe there is others out there who have a little more insight who could look into it.

[hrvojej]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

YES!! I think you've nailed it!! ~D ~D
I wish I've read your post some 7 hrs ago though. ~:) Anything else I've tried in that period of time (not to mention yesterday) didn't work, from angles to velocities to missile types etc. Never mind the javelin icon, it works as it used to. Yihaaa...

Thank you very much! ~:cheers:

ps.
Are elephants affected as well? I haven't looked at them, and right now I'd really prefer to play for a while instead of going back to testing.

[Steppe Merc]

So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly! ~;)

[hrvojej]

Steppe Merc[/B] So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly! ~;)

As far as I can tell, yes it works. I don't know whether there are any side effects other than the wrong icon. They still fire arrows, which should be affected by rain (at least it says so ~;) ) etc. as per projectile file. They just don't get interrupted or something, because I think the fire rate is also unaffected. And now I'm really going to do some playtime...

ps.
Steppe Merc, you don't have 1.2 installed? Could you briefly check whether some cavalries, such as barbarians, roundshields & longshields were "fast moving" prior to the 1.2. I seem to recall that they weren't, and now they are. Greek cav is also fast now, but I think it might have been before as well. Much appreciated if you go through the trouble. ~:)

[Steppe Merc]

Hmm... Where does it say it? In game, or the export descr unit text?
Because I can't find any fast moving attribute in that file...

[QwertyMIDX]

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

[Attalus]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

Wrong again Sam...
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~kharwoh/images/a-usseal3.jpg

[Ziu]

There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.



.......Orda

Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn! ~:cheers:

[Red Harvest]

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

QwertyMIDX,

Thank you for the fix. I can confirm it works on every unit I tested. All of the mounted archers are broken to some degree. All of these units seem to have some sort of failure to their animation that causes them to halt the firing sequence prematurely. My elephants also seem to stop firing for long stretches for no apparent reason after the first volley, but my first attempt at fixing them with the "thrown" attribute was unsuccessful.

Repeating the fix from Qwerty: "I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement."

List of units to search for and fix:

barb chariot light briton
barb horse archers scythian
barb horse archers slave
barb noble horse archers scythian
barb scythian noblewomen scythian
east persian cavalry
east cataphract archer
east horse archer
east chariot archer
egyptian bedouin
egyptian chariot archer
egyptian general's bodyguard early
rebel amazon chariots
merc horse archers
merc bedouin archers

[Red Harvest]

Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn! ~:cheers:

Having ridden horses regularly as a boy, I think the problem is that the naysayers probably have never ridden a horse... I never tried shooting from one though.

[Chelifer]

I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)


I guess the main reason is one has relativelty long periods of predictable motion while at gallop (between jumps) compared to trotter.

[Red Harvest]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

Horse archers definitely fired on the move. Actually the cavalry pursuit shot would be fairly easy, a direct astern pursuer at a similar speed is going to be essentially a stationary target for sighting. The idea of the Parthian shot is turning loose the shot as they get close, making them a rather easy target. They are not moving laterally to you, nor diagonally.

I've fired thousands of rounds as well...and I see no reason to believe I couldn't make such a shot once practiced.

But I guess it isn't so much about what we believe *we* could do. It is what they *DID* do. And there, the historical record clearly disagrees with your opinion.

[RJV]

Just out of interest I happened to see a program called 'Lost Inventions' on one of the Discovery Channels over the weekend where they were trying to recreate an Assyrian war chariot. The point relevant to this thread however was when they showed Mike Loades (of Time Commanders) riding a horse bareback, controlling the beast with his thighs/knees, travelling at a fair pace (not a gallop perhaps, but a fair lick) and shooting an arrow into a target as he moved.

OK so it doesn't prove anything as such, but if a weapons historian can do it with relative ease, then you can bet your life guys born and brought up in the saddles of the Steppe could do it.

But more seriously, thanks Qwerty, I'll mod that fix in tonight.

Cheers,

Rob.

[Puzz3D]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).
That fixes the problem for me. It works for your HA as well as AI controlled HA. Nice find.

I ran a test in v1.1 and v1.2 (with the HA fix) with an Armenian horse archer with 55 men chased by an AI controlled Sacred Band Pikemen with 82 men. In v1.1, the HA got 31 kills and in v1.2 it got 10 kills using all its arrows. I think the fewer kills in v1.2 is due to the new shield effect. When I controlled the Sacred Band Pikemen and always walked, never running as the AI often does, toward the AI controlled HA, I lost 0 men.

[Butcher]

Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

[Sam Adams]

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

likewise, you cannot effectively attack from a gallop. It just hasnt happened in history. At carhae, for example, the romans were pinned down and relatively immobile. The horse archers had them surrounded and clearly would not have been firing from a gallop. napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

[Ellesthyan]

Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

Lol! ~:)

[Orda Khan]

Can you provide a source that confirms your theories Sam?

......Orda

[Sinner]

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

likewise, you cannot effectively attack from a gallop. It just hasnt happened in history. At carhae, for example, the romans were pinned down and relatively immobile. The horse archers had them surrounded and clearly would not have been firing from a gallop. napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.


Sam, the historical accounts refer to the Parthians, for example, as a whole, they don't say "Oh, and there was one really good Parthian warrior who could... etc, etc, etc, yadda, yadda, yadda."

Since you weren't present at these historical events how can you possibly say "It just hasnt happened in history." given that you have no proof? The people opposing your viewpoint at least have the proof of eyewitness accounts.

And why would horse archers 'clearly' not shoot on the gallop against an immobile foe? If the Romans had even one missile-armed soldier left, no horseman in his right mind is going to want to do anything other than gallop to reduce the chance of being hit by return fire.

And certain Napoleonic cavalry were issued with dragoon muskets or carbines, as well as long-barreled pistols. The problem wasn't so much the accuracy - which muskets are bad at anyway - but that it's very difficult to reload a muzzle-loader on horseback.

US cavalry often fought from foot due to a tactical doctrine that recognized the accuracy of rifled firearms plus until the end of the war the ability to reload on horseback was still hampered.

The Light Brigade followed the same pattern as the US cavalry and were in any case attempting to take the guns, which required them to charge home - in such circumstances any cavalryman of the era would be likely favor the sword over their one-shot firearms.

There're your reasons.

Could you please possibly consider - especially given some of the personalities who are disagreeing with you - that your opinion might just be wrong, that history and even personal experience in one case might just be right.

[Red Harvest]

Sam,

Your analogy falls apart for one simple reason: In the Civil War both sides carried ranged weapons for their main forces, infantry and cavalry. A rifle is not particularly well set up for mounted fighting, and far less so until metallic cartridges with enclosed primers became available. Many early rifled muskets had a reload sequence that largely precluded use from the saddle. Dismounting was done primarily because a man on horseback was a rather big target. Cavalry alone could not beat infantry at the time because they were cut down too rapidly by rifle fire. Much early Civil War cavalry fighting was done in the saddle with saber and pistol, and proved rather ineffective. Napoleonic cavalry tactics were clearly out of date with the improved weaponry. This changed to mounted infantry where the cavalry was used to move into key positions and fight like infantry, and even dig in to hold briefly until infantry support arrived to relieve them. Cavalry charges became rare except when catching the enemy by surprise or other mitigating circumstances.

The horse archer cultures had to win tribal warfare and hunt game. This they did mounted, and they could shoot at the gallop. This makes them tougher defensively, and offensively. If you couldn't shoot while moving, you were at a disadvantage. At long range, arrows can be dodged. Bullets on the other hand...

[EGO]

I have to agree. I can't get horse archers to shoot arrows very often and I can't get elephant archers to shoot at all!!!!! :help:

[Doug-Thompson]

After there's been enough testing to show that Qwerty's fix doesn't have any bad side effects on non-skirmishing combat, such as firing from a distance, that needs to be put in a fix and posted somewhere.

At the very least, it appears to be a big step in the right direction. Thanks, QwertyMIDX.

[Sam Adams]

I would like to see some historical reports of horse archers firing en masse while galloping durring battle. No, carrhae isnt one of them.

[Orda Khan]

Ammianus........'of incredible swiftness they ride, returning to battle to unleash their arrows'

Zosimus......'they wrought immense slaughter by wheeling, charging, retreating in good time and all the while firing from their horses'

Sidonius.......'Shapely bows and arrows are their delight, sure and terrible are their hands; firm is their confidence that their missiles will bring death and their frenzy is trained to do wrongful deeds with swift blows that never go wrong'

......Orda

[Proletariat]

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.


When I qualified for the Army on my M16 two years ago I hit 39 out of 40 targets ranging from 50 meters to 300. The one I missed was due to getting sand in my weapon.

I have never shot anything else in my life. (Hey, I'm a female who just does occupational therapy for the Army.)

Marines from what I remember qualify on ranges that are 500 meters.

Aside from being wrong, how is this relevant? Did you watch the video CBR provided?

[SpencerH]

If you can consistently hit a man-size target at 300m with an M16 then I'd say you're a good shot (male or female) and I've fired many more weapons than the M16. I'm not a good shot myself without a scope and prefered closer ranges and an AK-47 or longer ranges and a .50cal.

[Proletariat]

If you can consistently hit a man-size target at 300m with an M16 then I'd say you're a good shot (male or female) and I've fired many more weapons than the M16.


I think I might've benefited from never having shot before. Alot of the soldiers there who came from more rural areas who had experiance 'back home' with 22s and such might've picked up bad habits learning on their own and such.

[Simetrical]

Maybe focusing on one weapon helps, too. It also doesn't hurt that the targets are stationary, they contrast well with their background, and you don't have to worry about having to shoot the second you see the target or about missing a few of the targets.

Incidentally, Proletariat, how did you clean the sand from your gun quickly enough to hit the next target? I'd've thought you'd have missed at least two or three. I mean, I know they must have trained you to clean your gun quickly, and you presumably didn't have to take the thing apart to get out the sand, but still.

Wait, what was the topic again?

-Simetrical

[Nelson]

Sam, there are and have been since the earliest days of Shogun, a vociferous group of Mongolphiles here in the org. They believe that the mounted archer was the greatest weapon system of the pre-gunpowder era. By suggesting that steppe warriors were not gods of war to a man you have essentially peed in their Wheaties. I see where you're coming from. We used to discuss the skills of a typical samurai in the same way. Some people thought they were all magicians with a sword and others considered that the average guy was more pedestrian than mystical with a blade. How good was the typical horse archer? Who knows?

In combat all they had to do was fire into a teeming mass of men/horses, as Ziu has pointed out. Clearly they were good enough to cause untold havoc with compound bows doing just that. So the efficacy of the weapon system as such is not really debatable. They were not likely all Zen marksmen nor did they need to be. I suspect that some were pretty damn good though. If this was their life’s work they would have mastered it.

Setting the stat_pri_attr attribute to “throw” did indeed enable HA to skirmish nicely without being in a circle. I have always used the cantabrian circle a lot because it seemed to work the best. Maybe now I won't need it as often.

Hats off to QwertyMIDX.

[Doug-Thompson]

Sam, there are and have been since the earliest days of Shogun, a vociferous group of Mongolphiles here in the org. They believe that the mounted archer was the greatest weapon system of the pre-gunpowder era. By suggesting that steppe warriors were not gods of war to a man you have essentially peed in their Wheaties.


Yes, I forgot to mention that. A typical Mongol horse archer could empty his bladder into a bowl of Wheaties on the ground while riding by at a full gallop. Thanks for reminding me, Nelson.

(Everybody does realize that's a joke, right?)

Seriously, this silly little argument has lead me to some great stuff. Check out this (http://www.horsebackarchery.com/) and this (http://steppenreiter.de/horseback_archery.htm). I'm going to buy this guy's book. His name is Lajos Kassai, he's from Hungary, and he's apparently the Guinness Book of World Records holder for most shot fired accurately from a galloping horse.

[Xiahou Liao]

I hate Horse Archers...

[Proletariat]

Incidentally, Proletariat, how did you clean the sand from your gun quickly enough to hit the next target? I'd've thought you'd have missed at least two or three.

The army uses the acronym SPORTS

Slap (tap the magazine upwards)
Pull (pull the charge back to open the chamber and release the stuck round)
Observe (look in the chamber to see what's stuck/jammed/sandy)
Release (let the charge slam back forward)
Squeeze (pull the trigger and see if you got it going)

I'm almost positive that's how it went, but it has been a little while.

I could probably do this in 20-30 seconds, it sounds harder than it is. I had a Filipino drill sergeant who could do this whole process and actually catch the round as it flew out. ~:eek: It was astonishing to watch.


Oh yeah! The thread! Thank you very much, Qwerty! ~D

[The Storyteller]

Darn, the fact that horse archers could fire on the move was my fav. bit of RTW. I always thought horse archers of the steppes ought to be able to do it.

With regards to the historical accuracy of this, James Chambers states that the trick to keep arrows relatively accurate was to loose the arrow when all four of the horse's legs were in the air. That minimises shaking and bouncing. As someone pointed out, it's easier to shoot at a gallop than at a trot. I don't think this is specific to the Mongolians, or even to the inhabitants of the Asian Steppes. I believe the Native Americans used mounted archers as well.

I think it's quite clear that shooting from a moving horse is, if nothing else, possible for a significant number of people. I think it's also clear that it's possible to be reasonably accurate at it (witness modern day horseback archery demonstrations). And I do think that if people can do it now, then surely those who grew up in that kind of culture could do it then.

Accuracy probably didn't matter that much. When you have 60 foot archers firing into a blob of enemy, you don't need pinpoint accuracy. Likewise for mounted archers.

What I think is the crux of this argument is whether or not shooting from a moving horse is reasonably possible. Giving examples where this didn't happen doesn't work, because all that's needed is one example to show that it did to prove that it's possible and probable that it did happen.

What may help is looking at the situation and time period. Some cultures never used mounted archers. Anywhere with lots of obstructions, like trees and the like, would never use them. In an era where guns were becoming widely used, but still difficult to load, mounted shooters wouldn't be used. Like all activities, horse archers had their time and place, and you're going to have to look at that time and place to see if it's possible or not.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.
You must be JOKING. Look at how the Mongols and Native Americans could fire their bows/rifles from horseback! Probably better than most people could standing still! The sport of horse archery still exists, btw.
Check this out:www.horsebows.com/bows (http://www.horsebows.com/bows)

[Sam Adams]

im not debating the usefullness of extremely mobile archers.

Im just saying that when suddenly charged and coming about to quickely fall back, while riding perhaps the bumpiest form of transportation known to man, its not likely that you would be releasing arrows.

[Red Harvest]

Just got some new books today. Interesting things relative to the topic although I haven't had a chance to read much yet:

A Scythian coin showing King Atai firing his bow forward with horse clearly at a gallop. (He died in battle vs. the Macedonians in 339 BC at the age of 90.)

A relief in Ashurnasirpal's palace at Nimrud shows a "Parthian shot" on the run by some horse archer fleeing Assyrian cavalry--probably Median. Interestingly he is depicted early in his draw with vertical aim angle of about 30 degrees. (Assyrian 11th century BC?)

Also an Assyrian relief of fleeing Arab camel nomads (two per camel), with rear archer firing at pursuing Assyrian cavalry who are firing forward at them.

Some sort of illustration showing the battle of Ulai River with forward firing Assyrian horse archer shooting at Elamites and driving them into the river ~655 BC.

A wall painting from Dura Europos 2-3rd century AD showing a forward firing horse archer.

Also graffiti from Dura Europos showing another forward firing horse archer.

All of the horses in the above appear to be moving much faster than a walk. I'll accept these contemporary "movies" over a modern person's conjecture about what is possible to do from a horse.

[Sam Adams]

greek coins have pictures of achilles and zeus on them.

doesnt meen they existed, does it?

[The Storyteller]

im not debating the usefullness of extremely mobile archers.

Im just saying that when suddenly charged and coming about to quickely fall back, while riding perhaps the bumpiest form of transportation known to man, its not likely that you would be releasing arrows.

I kind of agree with this... It depends very much on the circumstances. I know the Mongolians went a lot faster than their European counterparts, so they could withdraw in good order, shooting as they went (while still being on the move, though...) Anyone know if they were able to do the same thing while being pursued by cavalry forces as fast as them?

[HarunTaiwan]

The longest range kill in history was 2,400 meters.

Canadian sniper in Afghanistan.

He could kill your general from the campaign map.

[Sam Adams]

that was with a barrets .50 that regular infantry dont get.

[Sam Adams]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=28572467

[Trithemius]

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

Firearms are not the same as bows. Recoil effects are different and ballistics are different.

Also, I would ask if you have practiced mounted gunfire every day of your life and relied upon it for a large part of your sustenance. The people who used this method of fighting, historically, practiced mounted archery as a way of life - not simply a hobby.

[Trithemius]

napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

What has Napoleonic cavalry got to do with this?
Shall we also discuss the fact that cavalry in the 19th century were issued with firearms? ~:handball:

[HopAlongBunny]

As for firing black powder muskets from horseback, do a little reading about the Metis. :book:

[Red Harvest]

greek coins have pictures of achilles and zeus on them.

doesnt meen they existed, does it?

I guess that means that nothing depicted on coins or in sculpture ever existed.

You remind me of my little brother as a kid, sticking his fingers in his ears and singing or humming loudly if someone tried to tell him something he didn't want to believe or hear. We know that later horse archers did these feats you find so impossible. We know that modern day riders can also do them (I've seen video of several.) We have written historical accounts of this. And we have reliefs going back at least to 1000 BC that regularly show people doing this on both horses and camels.

But I think we should reject all that evidence, and listen to the guy singing with his fingers in his ears. :no: :no: :no:

We really need a horse archer smiley for this topic.

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

God this sucks!! i feel that i been sitting here reading all these posts from start to finish here.....my azz is sore :embarassed: well anyway when is the team gonna fix this major lamer bug for HA? cause now i not wanna play any of the HA factions or even play against them cause the fun has been taken out :embarassed:

[Sam Adams]

legends and sporting events do not make real combat tactics, red harvest. Do you honestly think that horse archers could be effective in that sudden moment when they are required to turn and flee to avoid persuit? no, it just isnt realistic.

[vs the world]

Sam, with the risk of this sounding sardonic, could you please provide some historical facts or references that support your point? So far, you have used nothing but conjecture and feebly related examples to reach your opinion.

:thinking2:

[RJV]

legends and sporting events do not make real combat tactics, red harvest. Do you honestly think that horse archers could be effective in that sudden moment when they are required to turn and flee to avoid persuit? no, it just isnt realistic.

Granted that when charged by cavalry there would have been a great incentive to focus on the riding rather than the firing. However, consider that when being charged the horse archers would likely have had quite a head start so would have been able to concentrate on firing anyway. And when being charged by foot troops the horse obviously has quite the edge in speed, so again the riders would have been able to concentrate on firing.

These civilisations (for want of a better word) grew up in the saddle. They would have been on horseback since they could walk. They would have been using bows for a similar length of time. The riding would be second nature. The arrow fire would be very effective as disruptive fire - let's face it, would the charging troops be keen to get an arrow in the face?

While we can all accept that battle reports of the time would probably have been subject to some embellishment, I think you should take a bit of time to consider that people of the past may just have been quite competent at this sort of thing.

Cheers,

Rob.

[lt1956]

Personally I do not mind that the Archers dont ride and shoot, I just kill them anyway and never play them. lol

But on a serious note, its true that ancient Horse archers DID shoot while riding. I also have a tape on the history alive that also has experts stating this. Infact AandE.com has a DVD called Barbarians, in it, it speaks of Horse archers and firing while riding, Something with the Bow allowing this.

The reason CA removed this is clear, there was a problem in the game and especially MP that made them moving machineguns. lol People in MP games built ARMIES of HA's and were winning, since the vanilla archers are overpowered they just removed the feature to fire while moving unless javelins. Makes sense to fix a problem that many complained about with Multiplayer.

Someone says this can be fixed by adding thrown, and that is probably true, but the side effects are unknown.

Also Elephants DO fire while moving, while balancing SPQR mod, I noticed the Elephant Archers firing while moving many times, not just the first time then stop. They do fire LESS though, I did notice this. The most likely changed the animations.

Pilums fire faster thank goodness!

Hope this helps, I only read a few posts since I know all I want to know already on the M16E4. lol

Lt1956

[Bhruic]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

[Colovion]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

THat's kind of why I stayed away from this one.

[RJV]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

OK, say no more :lipsrsealed2:

[Jambo]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

[Puzz3D]

If the altered stat fixes the archers, and it seems it does, that's fine, but CA should issue an updated patch that fixes this, and fixes it properly, anyway. There may also be improvements to multiplayer connectivity that can be made, and the building browser scoll bug that could be fixed.

[Ginger]

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.

Granted they wouldnt have been that accurate (but then neither was a normal musket) and may not have fired on the move much, but still a long way from "Napoleonic cavalry didnt carry muskets".

On another note- kudos to all who have sorted the patch issues ~:cheers:

[SpencerH]

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.



Werent they 'specialist' units i.e. carabiners? I dont think other cav types such as dragoons or lancers carried firearms.

[Doug-Thompson]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.


Hear, hear.

[Red Harvest]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.

[Ginger]

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!! ~:cheers:

[Doug-Thompson]

I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.


That's a problem. Elephants don't have skirmish nor Cantabrian circle.

[hrvojej]

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering". A bit silly really, just like the battlescarred trait showing up after every battle, even when the general never did any fighting, to make the generals more durable (btw, has anyone managed to find the fix for this one yet??).

[Orda Khan]

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.

It's not Horse Archers that are broken, RTW is broken!

.....Orda

[Slyspy]

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!! ~:cheers:

Most cavalry carried carbines and other short firearms in addition to pistols etc but they were neither trained nor expected to fire on the move or even from the saddle. The weapons were issued purely to increase the flexibility of cavalry units so they could tackle infantry in cover if necessary eg when on patrol etc.

[Red Harvest]

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering".

I doubt it was intentional. It looks like something is accidentally halting the sequence and restarting it. The key is that they aren't even firing when they stop (horse archers in skirmish or elephants period.) In skirmish the HA's will go through the whole sequence while stopped, and I hear the sound of arrows, but none are fired, then they run away. Every once in awhile they actually fire.

They had to work on the FF code and the pri/sec bug, and before I could not get HA's to quit targeting nearby enemies (and my own men) when they were being charged off elsewhere. I suspect they just didn't do a thorough enough check.

Any of the beta testers still able to run the beta .EXE and see if this is a result of the pri/sec bug fix, or if it was present in the beta?

[Bob the Insane]

Running some tests on this in custom battle using both Parthians and Sycthians (spelling?) I have found a few things...

1. HA will fire while on the move...

2. But (and it is a big but) if they are in skirmish mode and are moving away from the enemy then they will not fire, until they have reached minimum safe distance... In my tests the HA would fire at the unit approaching it until it was close enough that they skirmished away and then when they reached a safe distance would start the firing animation again. But if the troops chasing them are running the HA would have not have enough time to actually fire before having to skirmish away again...

3. HA will not fire directly to the rear, I found a effective tactic to deal with a unit of troops chasing HA is to have them zig zagging across in front allowing the HA to fire...

4. The Cantibarian Circle (spelling?) is still very effect and HA in skirmish mode using the CC work fine...

5. Another little observation was that HA seem particularly affected by the new anti FF stuff (logical considering they were highly effected by FF original). I think this mean that a lot of the time the volumn of fire you get out of a unformed unit of HA is quite low...

No conclusions there just observations but I would like to hear other's opinions...

[nickersonm]

FYI the archers on Carthaginian War Elephants have been working fine for me in 1.2 - both stationary and while marching/running. I killed 2000 units in a seige with it, so there is no question about it. I haven't checked specifically to see if the arrows affect the targets while the mount is engaged in combat, but I believe it is. Haven't encountered HAs yet in 1.2.

- nickersonm

[Sam Adams]

my war elephants fire as long as their target isnt directly at their feet.

[QwertyMIDX]

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

After there's been enough testing to show that Qwerty's fix doesn't have any bad side effects on non-skirmishing combat, such as firing from a distance, that needs to be put in a fix and posted somewhere.

At the very least, it appears to be a big step in the right direction. Thanks, QwertyMIDX.

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

[RJV]

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

Eh?

It's only one file that needs changing - just back that one up. Have I missed the point?

[R'as al Ghul]

So, I've been away a few weeks and the patch is out. Nice!
Horse Archers are now broken again? How could that happen?
I mean I was really surprised to see them "really" work in the vanilla version. Other HorseArcher-Fans like Doug agreed with me that it's the first time CA did them right. It was a pain to nanny them in M:TW. Medieval MP was nearly impossible to win with muslim factions due to this. What a joy it was to see them do the Parthian Shot, finally shooting on the move with working skirmish-engine etc, etc.
Now that these features are gone, I don't think I'll even touch the game any more although I was looking forward to playtest the new features, repaired bugs. Instead I'm going to play some more Pirates!
Also nice to see that the historical question, if HA could shoot while moving, still isn't clear. :wall:
Well, it's not that this question was discussed before, is it?


Gah!

[Spino]

I gave the 'stat_primary_attr' fix a try by changing the variable from 'no' to 'thrown' for all mounted archer units (war & armored elephants excepted) and it worked like a charm! Set up a Parthia vs. Seleucid battle and the Horse Archers and Persian Cavalry cleaned house, no more fudged archery and the Parthian shot now works like it should. The good news is the bow reloading and firing animation is the same as before.

Thanks for the fix!

[Doug-Thompson]

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.


True.

[Red Harvest]

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.


They will fire once while moving, then not fire again while moving. If you issue more commands, they will begin firing again, but left to themselves, they stop firing. It has the looks of a "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" sort of problem. When you mouse hover over them it says nothing about firing/reloading etc, except for the first volley. After that the archers just stand there.

[Hambut_bulge]

Can also confirm that applying Qwerty's excellent fix for the HA's to War/Armoured Elephants doesn't make a blind bit of difference to their behaviour. As Red Harvest said, they fire one volley per move command. Like the HA bug they do have a little bow and arow icon on the unit card, but just don't fire after that first volley.

Ooops....

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

where is the file so i can add this fix :book:

[Steppe Merc]

It's export desc units (or something with those words).

[Simetrical]

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this . . .Sorry, wouldn't work. The change is probably in RTW.exe, and we can do very little to modify that (at least, those of us who aren't good at assembly). You could try using the 1.1 RTW.exe, but that would eliminate all the important changes that the patch made. If the problem isn't in the EXE, it might possibly be in the animations, which would be fairly easy to edit, but I really kinda doubt it.

-Simetrical

[Orvis Tertia]

To beat a dead horse: I was intrigued by the argument about whether or not horse archers actually fired on the move, and I discovered two things during the past half hour on the Web:

1. It seems that at least some horse archers, Mongols in particular, use a caracol technique whereby they would run up into range of the enemy, fire, then wheel around and reload while galloping away, rinse and repeat. I read about some Middle-Eastern horse archers that would run up with three arrows knocked on their bows, fire all three, turn and reload three more arrows while turning, and then fire three more while heading away from the enemy. This would in effect cause each horseman to rush into range and fire six arrows, then quickly be out of range again. I have no idea how accurate any of this information is or how widely it applies to different cultures of this era, but I thought it was interesting. (And I only looked at sites that appeared to be of academic standards. I ignored gamer sites altogether.)

2. I found this really fascinating discussion of the Parthians: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/parthians/parthian_army.php


This was quite interesting as well: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/strategikon/strategikon.htm

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

thanks QwertyMIDX i'm going to test this,and what about the egyption chariot archers and the britsh archer chariots? do the same for them?
and what of the elephant archers? ~:confused:

[QwertyMIDX]

I know it works for the chariots, I havent tried it on the Elephants, one day I will get around to it.

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

It worked like a charm QwertyMIDX ~:) all the HA factions and the archer chariots and the "Elephants" all worked very good :charge:
i tried a test for mp but none of the games were compatible :(
you gotta get your fix for the HA chariots and elephants to the attention of the rtw ppl somehow so they can maybe use it for a patch.

cheers QwertyMIDX and very good work! ~:cheers:

[SpencerH]

I've finally been able to build a unit that would be effected by this problem and found none. I built carthaginian war elephants. I told them to attack a rebel unit (the sword icon was showing when over the enemy unit- which is odd) and they moved forward while firing (when in range). They only inflicted 3 casualties on skirmishers before the battle ended but arrows continued to fly through the air. Its unclear how many flights of arrows caused the casualties i.e. it may have looked like the war elephants were firing but the casualty calcs may not have been done. I find it hard to imagine how so few casualties could have been inflicted.

[a_ver_est]

QwertyMIDX,

List of units to search for and fix:

barb chariot light briton
barb horse archers scythian
barb horse archers slave
barb noble horse archers scythian
barb scythian noblewomen scythian
east persian cavalry
east cataphract archer
east horse archer
east chariot archer
egyptian bedouin
egyptian chariot archer
egyptian general's bodyguard early
rebel amazon chariots
merc horse archers
merc bedouin archers

Is the list completed ? Alt + attack doesn't work with war elephants. :dizzy2:

[Bob the Insane]

Considering put this alteration in myself...

Has anyone seen any other side effects of doing this? Any odd behaviours?

[Red Harvest]

I haven't been able to make elephants work right with or without "thrown." I even changed a war elephant to class "missile" last night (to see if it would get the "skirmish" trait) but it didn't.

With the elephants it is really odd because the animation of the archers freezes until a new order is issued or until they come to a stop, enter combat etc. It looks really strange...