Marian Reforms

[m4rt14n]

Anyone succesfully get the Marian Reforms yet?
I have no idea when the date for it post patch. It's been really painful slogging away in Egypt with Hastatis/Principes....

[vs the world]

I believe the 1.2 date is 220bc?

[fret]

The earliest they can happen is 220BC, I think the requirement for triggering is now to build an Imp Palace on the Italian Peninsular - although I havent confirmed that yet myself, i just read it somewhere.

[Catiline]

Anyone succesfully get the Marian Reforms yet?
I have no idea when the date for it post patch. It's been really painful slogging away in Egypt with Hastatis/Principes....
Sounds like a great improvement. My triarii took a real battering against the Greeks last night

[Akka]

Yep, had it.

Around 210-200 BC.

[Flatulus Maximus]

Hello guys, I just thought I'd jump in here if you don't mind the intrusion. The Marian reforms are tied to development of your largest city and not to any time period specifically, though I suppose that growth would coincide with the approximate time periods you suggested.

Being the curious soul that I am, I've used the population, money & build cheat to discover the temple benefits for the various cultures. I was doing this with the Scippio when on the (first) turn I got the Marius reform, just after I built the largest Scriptorium. I'm not sure if it was the Scriptorium or the number of advanced buildings in the city but I rang the bell on turn one...

[Ellesthyan]

Flatulus, was this before or after the patch? It shouldn't happen before 220 BC...

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

this is A hard blow to romans!!! :charge:

it happens at 220BC ~D

[Old Celt]

I found in a response from CA staff on another website, the required conditions for the Marius reforms:

Build an Imperial Palace on the Italian Peninsula.

The reform cannot take place until at least 220 BC.


That's it.

[fret]

Regarding those conditions, does anyone know if Patavium s considered to be on the peninsular?

[Akka]

What does happen if all the italian cities already have an imperial palace by 220 ?

[Flatulus Maximus]

Ellesthyan, I found this to be the case before the 1.2 patch. In truth I haven't even patched yet. From all I'm reading I should though.

[hundurinn]

Strange. I built an Imperial Palace around 220 BC. in Italia as Bruti and the reform didn't happed until 196 BC. ~:confused:

[NightStar]

I'm playing as the Julii and I just got the Marian reforms 220 bc. I hadn't even built the imperial palace yet....some other fellow roman helped me with that. I am having great fun playing with the 1.2 patch, the romans don't steamroller everyone now. The Brutii are taking a beating and the Thracians and Macedonians have been slowly taking over their cities, the Scipii have just taken Carthage but haven't advanced further into africa.

As the Julii I have been fighting against the Spanish, Britons and Gauls and it has been kind of a stalemate. The Marius reforms will help me get on the offensive again. It has been fun fighting stacks of chosen swordsmen, bull warriors and chariots with mostly Hastati and Principes, especially now after the secondary weapon bug has been fixed.

[m4rt14n]

Sometimes I want my old uber legions back....

ah well. They should at least come up with different time periods. I hate to wait until 220 BC to do some serious ass kicking.

Anyone finds that Britain is now impossible to beat with auto-solving? I had to lead all my battles now as the Scipii to gain any of their cities... even with 10:1 advantage and on M/M.

[Octavius Julius]

I think the idea of building an imperial palace to trigger a Marian reform is stupid. In reality, the Marian reforms happened about 100 bc.

I think the trigger should be that if one of your family (or other Roman family) is called Marius, and he has won a few "epic" battles, then there should be a Marian reform. What's the point having a Marian reform if you have a huge temple?

[Kaldhore]

Maybe it was in the halls a a huge temple or walking the corridors of the imperial palace that he found the inspiration (or the courage) to propose the changes.....

[Sinner]

Octavius, judging by a commented out entry in the events file it seems that the original intention was that the Reforms would be date triggered, just like the plagues in Macedon, etc.

I would presume that playtesting showed that campaigns were often being finished long before the required trigger date, so they had to come up with a new idea, one that would allow the player to experience the benefits of the reform without being too easy to acquire.

Unfortunately - or fortunately, depending upon your point of view - the use of the Imperial Palace as the trigger is open to what some might consider abuse of the spirit of the game. I've read strategies that will boost the population of a city to the required 24000 in just 8 or 9 turns as an extreme example.

The idea of linking the reforms to battle results is a good one ~:). I wouldn't require it to be a leader with the surname of Marius, but any that had achieved a certain status, whether it be number of heroic victories, epic battles and/or command stars. Personally, I think it'd be a nice touch to see the Reforms event crediting your general after some massive victory, I'd find it would really add to the immersion factor.

While I like the post-patch method of limiting the reforms to being triggered only at an Italian city, I would have prefered to have the earliest date configurable rather than being fixed at 220BC. Extending that, I would have added a latest date as well, which forces the event even if the Romans haven't been able to build an Imperial Palace, and perhaps even being able to set what building or buildings are the trigger, including allowing none at all so that only the date has an effect.

Unfortunately, the game is written and we won't be seeing anymore changes. The expansion will likely concentrate on the new setting, presumably long after the historical reforms, so we'll just have to play with what we've got.

[Akka]

The date is NOT fixed at 220 BC. I had my Marius reform some years later. It's most probably fixed at a certain event, with 220 BC being the SOONEST it can happens.

[Sinner]

Umm, that's why I said 'earliest date'. Post-patch the requirements for the reforms are to build an Imperial Palace in an Italian, with the date 220BC or later. So the earliest allowable date is 220BC, and it is fixed since we cannot mod that date.

[Akka]

Sorry, I mis-read your previous post into something quite different. Consider I've said nothing ^^

[Quillan]

If you dig into the data files, you'll find there is now a "hidden resources italy". All the provinces on the Italian peninsula have this resource, and yes, that includes Mediolanium and Patavium. Since no units require that resource to be built, I assume it's there for the Reforms trigger. There's also a "hidden resources rome", but it's in there for the First Cohorts. They can now be built at a barracks, one size greater than the regular legionary cohort could be, but only in Rome.

[Spino]

I hate that the Marian reforms trigger date is so early (220 BC). I understand that the reason for this is because most campaigns are over long before the Marian reforms actually took place but CA should have seen this coming. CA should have taken a page from their Medieval playbook and incorporated eras into Rome or in the very least included a variation of Rome's provincial campaign, one that starts sometime after the Second Punic War.

This is the one area where Medieval shines over Rome. Because of the lack of eras and Glorious Achievement goals in RTW's campaign game few gamers will see their campaigns progress beyond 150 BC and even fewer to 100 BC or beyond. There's simply no incentive to keep playing other than to see if you can conquer more than 50 provinces.

Well, the good news is at least we can mod the game so that the Marian reforms do not affect gameplay. Thanks to the available options in the text files we can it so that Republic era troops are unaffected by the Marian reforms and remove Marian reform units from the game competely. I'm sure numerous solutions will become available over time thanks to the TW modding community.

However, I don't think it's asking too much for CA to make it so we can change the Marian reform trigger date via a simple change in the descr_strat.txt file. This would be a welcome addition for the expansion pack.

[Barbarossa82]

Oh, this is very, very lame - just built an Imperial Palace as Macedon, and there is no sign of the upgraded armoured generals' bodyguards. New generals, and old generals retrained at the city with the Imperial palace, come out with the crappy old bodyguards. So it looks as if other factions' development in generals' bodyguards is dependent on SOMEONE ELSE (i.e. the Romans) building an Imperial palace in Italy. And since I've conquered the whole of Italy, they ain't going to do it.
Has anyone experienced any different?

[Khorak]

Maybe the Reforms could be linked to popularity with the people as well. So you'd need an Imperial Palace, be past 220, but you'd also need the support of the people in order to push the reforms past the Senate.

[Lord Ovaat]

I, too, would like to see a definative answer to the reform "turn-on". I am currently in a Julii "test" campaign to see what's new & what's not. As it now stands I have Imp Palaces and Urban Bar in both Mediolanium and Patavium, and the date is 211. Still no reform. So if it's tied to the peninisula, then the above two cities aren't considered part of it. However, the real reason I'm posting is concerning what I CAN produce--Pratorian Guards! Yup. No legionaires, no heavy cav, but the guards are buildable after the Palace. This is a glitch I'm sure I can fix on my own, but the typical buyer has no concept of altering the stats. Almost seems like a "cheat" to build them. But then, Macedon has been really arrogant of late, what with their whinny "Give us 10,000 den or we'll attack." HuH! Reminds me of the old Peter Seller's movie, "The Mouse That Roared." Jeese.

[Jonny Dangerously]

I didn't think I'd say this but I'm now actually pleased that the Marian event has been delayed. Being forced to get by with Pre Marian troops has resulted in me concentrating much more on their qualities and also hardening them up by repeated battles. I never used to care much about them because because I knew I'd sack the lot the moment post Marian troops became available. Now I know why so many people love Triari.

So yeah.....postponing the event, I think, is a cool idea.

[Jonny Dangerously]

I didn't think I'd say this but I'm now actually pleased that the Marian event has been delayed. Being forced to get by with Pre Marian troops has resulted in me concentrating much more on their qualities and also hardening them up by repeated battles. I never used to care much about them because because I knew I'd sack the lot the moment post Marian troops became available. Now I know why so many people love Triari.

So yeah, I think postponing the reform is an excellent plan.

[aw89]

i love the pre-marian troops, they may not be as good, but they... i just like them i guess.

And i love the triarii, WAY better then auxillia

[Kaldhore]

Well one thing is for sure - thats Early legionaires are pointless. By the time the reform comes I can produce not only proper legionaires - but Praetorian legions.....

Early legions are now useless.

[Byzantine Prince]

Get RTR and they won't be so useless. They actually apear before the MArian reform so you acn use them longer. I know what you mean though.

[Kaldhore]

Personally I wont use any mod on RTW until I feel that the games has gotten me that way.

No offence to those that put their mush appreciated effort into RTR. But I like to play the game as I payed for it - worse or better.

[froglegs]

By golly, and I always thought that the Marius reforms were historically tied to the size of the Roman Empire. I am sure that I can remember reading 40 years ago in some history book that as the Empire grew, it became impractical for the old and venerable citizen farmer, citizen soldier system to continue simply because you can't farm the fields if you are up in Transalpine Gaul, or in the far yonders of Hispania fighting for Senate and country -- doesn't that make sense?

Oh well, chalk it up to revisionist history I guess.

[Red Harvest]

By golly, and I always thought that the Marius reforms were historically tied to the size of the Roman Empire. I am sure that I can remember reading 40 years ago in some history book that as the Empire grew, it became impractical for the old and venerable citizen farmer, citizen soldier system to continue simply because you can't farm the fields if you are up in Transalpine Gaul, or in the far yonders of Hispania fighting for Senate and country -- doesn't that make sense?

Oh well, chalk it up to revisionist history I guess.

They were historically tied to Marius and the changes he instituted while pooling poorer classes into military service, not exactly revisionist history. If he isn't born yet...well, it is tough to envision having his reforms. Now the drivers for them were present even earlier than Marius. Some organic changes had been occurring for centuries. Remember Rome had fielded a hoplite army up until ~the 2nd Samnite War. When Rome adopted expansion outside of Italy during the 1st Punic war, longer service away from home became normal. Rome continued to adapt. but it was another 150 years before Marius instituted his reforms. Rome had been heavily engaged in Spain for at least 110 years before the reforms.

[Sinner]

Another quirk along with the Praetorian Cohorts and the Early Legionairy Cohorts are the Cavalry Auxilia - just like the Praetorians yet more post-Marian style troops that you can recruit before the Reform.

[froglegs]

I still contend that the "Reforms" came about because of the need to have a standing army for operations outside of Italy proper, not because of some creative genius by the name of Marius. If there were no Marius, there still would have been similiar reforms. The key is the size of the empire -- which was becoming a problem. The "Reforms" were the solution.

The "trigger" was the annihilation at Arausio in 105 BC of a Roman army of 80,000 plus 40,000 civilians. This was a Roman army comprised of the "poorer classes" that had become the norm for that time in operations away from the homeland. Although poorer, these men were still not professionals. As Roman citizens, they were forced to serve and fight a foreign war that had little to do with the defense of the homeland (Italy proper). The lesson here has been repeated over and over again.

[Butcher]

Interestingly enough, it's 217 B.C, have an Imperial Palace in Capua and no reforms...
Looks like there is more to the trigger than 220 B.C and an Imperial Palace on the Italian Penninsular. ~:confused:

[Es Arkajae]

Well one thing is for sure - thats Early legionaires are pointless. By the time the reform comes I can produce not only proper legionaires - but Praetorian legions.....

Early legions are now useless.

Early legions were 'useless' before too;)

Though there is one 'use' for them, if you're making war on barbarians and you want to keep on topping up your battle losses in conquered settlements then you'll need to use early legions as your main troops as they are the highest that barbarian cities (Heroes Hall) can manage.

With proper legions you have to either bring in reinforcements from your home cities or merge units to top them up.

[Es Arkajae]

Interestingly enough, it's 217 B.C, have an Imperial Palace in Capua and no reforms...
Looks like there is more to the trigger than 220 B.C and an Imperial Palace on the Italian Penninsular. ~:confused:

Same here, though the Marian Reforms for me as the Scipii occured in 218 BC, despite my having built an imperial palace long before.

One theory I have is that maybe the reforms are triggered when ROME builds an imperial palace, would make more sense. *shrugs*

[Proletariat]

Same here, though the Marian Reforms for me as the Scipii occured in 218 BC, despite my having built an imperial palace long before.

One theory I have is that maybe the reforms are triggered when ROME builds an imperial palace, would make more sense. *shrugs*


So if I wanna storm Rome as early as possible with Carthage I'll never get the General upgrade? I hope this isn't true.

[HailMightCaeser]

I think the reforms are just for the Romans... I don't think Carthage has these reforms?

[Slider6977]

Caeser is right. You can upgrade your towns as much as you want as any non-Roman faction, and do not have to worry about those Roman factions being effected. The reforms are only triggered at at least 220 bc and by Roman factions only, not to mention they have to build their Imperial Palace on the Italian Peninsula.

Theoretically, you could fully upgrade your towns and units and storm Italy while any Roman faction could only muster Hastati and Principes ~:) .

[Proletariat]

Could have sworn I read somewhere here that every faction's General upgrade was triggered by the Marian Reforms. Nevermind, sorry. :dizzy2:

[The Stranger]

no it isn't. but if one roman faction has the imperial palace in the italian peninsula and get marian reforms every roman faction does.

[Lt Mor]

:help: I am playing as the romans (installed the game --> R:TR 5.1).
I have CTD since 217 BC every turn and I don't have the Marius reforms yet.
I have the last palace in Italy ...

after the game CTD, I load the save file and play one turn and then CTD again.

I am at the year 212 Bc ...

I am working with windows XP ...

The thing is that with Rome V.1 I did get the reform.
but since then I played the game but usually it was over before the event took place.

I did a test and skipped the buildings and battles and just "End Turn" antil 199 Bc ...
the game didn't CTD and I didn't get the reforms.

I have heard that their is a infamous Marius Reforms CTD that has come about with the introduction of 1.2.

What am I need to do now ???

Stop playing with Rome ...

Is a way to cange the File.

Do I need to Reinstall the game ??? :help:

[Old Celt]

Lt Mor,
When you play with fire (mods) you might get burned. I would suggest you uninstall the RTR, and RTW. Do a new install from the original disk and then install the 1.2 patch. Try it and it should work. If you want to try RTR again after that, I would suggest you research the results of others who have before you do it.

There must be something more than the 2 requirements that trigger the reform because I had an Imperial Palace at Capua and it was finished by 220 BC. The reform did not happen until 218. I don't know if it was coincidence or not, but I upgraded the academy at Capua, and the reform took place on the turn it was completed. I'm beginning to wonder if another building must be built in the Imperial Palace city in order to trigger the reform.

Maybe a CA rep is reading this and can clarify?

[Spino]

I, too, would like to see a definative answer to the reform "turn-on". I am currently in a Julii "test" campaign to see what's new & what's not. As it now stands I have Imp Palaces and Urban Bar in both Mediolanium and Patavium, and the date is 211. Still no reform. So if it's tied to the peninisula, then the above two cities aren't considered part of it. However, the real reason I'm posting is concerning what I CAN produce--Pratorian Guards! Yup. No legionaires, no heavy cav, but the guards are buildable after the Palace. This is a glitch I'm sure I can fix on my own, but the typical buyer has no concept of altering the stats. Almost seems like a "cheat" to build them. But then, Macedon has been really arrogant of late, what with their whinny "Give us 10,000 den or we'll attack." HuH! Reminds me of the old Peter Seller's movie, "The Mouse That Roared." Jeese.

I believe the Imperial palaces have to be present in one of the core Roman provinces, basically any of the starting provinces owned by the Senate, the Julii, the Brutii and the Scipii. Since Mediolanium and Patavium start off in Gallic and/or Rebel hands they don't count.

[Old Celt]

Well, isn't Capua a core province? It's the only one the Scipii get in Italy at game start. I really think there is a 3rd condition.

[Red Harvest]

Since the statements that I read said there is a chance/probability of getting the reforms with the above conditions met, it doesn't surprise me at all that it could take some years before they finally occur. It doesn't say the reform *will* occur at 220 BC with an imperial palace on the peninsula in the hands of one of the 3 Roman family factions.

This is most likely somewhat similar to the old MTW/VI trigger to have an increasing chance of "random death" of the king starting at age 56. Only problem is, CA has had notorious trouble with the programming logic of triggers (look at vices/virtues in RTW for a present example, or the weather changes in battle in RTW, MTW, and VI) so they ended up with a trigger that killed the king at 56 every single time...until a much requested final patch was made to correct the defect.

However, as Spino has said in this thread, and many of us have stated in others: RTW is in need of "eras" as used in MTW. The lack of eras makes the reforms largely unnecessary/superfluous.

[Old Celt]

Red Harvest,

Your response makes good sense. If the chance is random and begins after 220 BC then it could be quite a while before the reforms come. It could be a cumulative chance too, so each turn, the chance gets greater and greater. So the third factor would be: LUCK.

[BeeSting]

I thought I read somewhere on one of the text files that had "marian reform 156" or some where around in the fifties?

[Lt Mor]

To Old celt :

It is true mods are fire, but I think that RT:R team made a great job with the game, that I am wiling to stop play with the Rome until their new mod V5.2 or V6.0 (I started new game with greek).

In the other and I agree their should be in era chapter with the game.

[vlad 1]

how delete marian reform from game ??
i don't need this reform
also in patch 1.2 rebels not work with marian reforms and game have ctd.

who know how delete this reform ??????????????????????????
what i need for it ??????????

or how fix bug from patch 1.2 with rebels and marian reform ctd with rebels fraction ????

[Red Harvest]

To effectively delete the effects of the reforms, one could eliminate all the build file references that say "and not marian_reforms" so that when they occur the velites/hastati/principes/triarii are still buildable. The units that say, "and marian_reforms" could be commented out of the build list so that they can never be built. That should force things to remain unchanged despite the reforms occurring. Haven't tested this though.

And the Praetorian Cohorts in the game have a stat error that allows them to be built early because they lack the Marian reform requirement. How do I know for sure it is unintentional? The Tech Tree foldout says "Praetorian Cohort (am)"--where "am" = after Marian refroms. This was impossible before the 1.2 patch, because building the palace triggered the reforms every time, but now it does not.

[vlad 1]

To effectively delete the effects of the reforms, one could eliminate all the build file references that say "and not marian_reforms" so that when they occur the velites/hastati/principes/triarii are still buildable.

this is done i delete full words: not marian reforms and marian reforms - but this words not delete marian refors in game !!!!!!!!!!!!