Cavalry charging phalanx downhill bug?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

've been trying to get attention for this issue at the .com for a few days now but haven't had much luck, so forgive me if I try here.

If cavalry charges a phalanx that is down hill from them the cavalry get's past the phalanx's leveled spears without any damage at all, they simple don't take any note of them whatsoever. The spears simply don't seem to exist for them. I am talking about a phalanx in phalanx formation, stopped and in good order. The phalanx thus has to switch to swords to engage the cavalry. This happens not just on steep slopes, fairly shallow ones cause this behaviour too. This leaves phalanx reliant countries at somewhat of a disadvantage IMHO.
Was this always in RTW? I only stopped using masses of Balearic slingers to dislodge enemies since 1.2 (too easy) so never encountered this before until I started marching pikes up the hill for some man-a-mano action.

Now, some people may argue that a phalanx is less effective on a slope. I don't actually agree with that, that really should only apply to broken ground IMHO, but also this behaviour doesn't happen when receiving a charge coming from down the hill or along the slope. And the phalanx isn't performing poorly, they are in effect not acting as a phalanx at all, clutching at phantom spears instead. It just doesn't feel right and it looks sily.

I'm thinking it may be a minimum/maximum spear angle (like the min/max missile angle) at work here, possibly caused by code to allow horses to jump into the phalanx. I've been looking to see if I could find such data but if there is such a txt file I can't find it. To add to my confusion cavalry that walks into the phalanx does get engaged by the spears. ~:confused:

I'm hoping others are willing to look at this unconfirmed bug and give their opinion and possible solutions/workaround for it. Thank you.

For those not willing to test it (it is rather simple to do however) I'm willing to send you a screenie with this 'feature' in action. Let me know if you prefer the high quality image or prefer a low quality image for you 56k users.

Thank you.

[Puzz3D]

The horses jumping on the level spears is a feature and I suppose this would be easier to do from a higher elevation, but I think it's overdone and too easy for cavalry to penetrate the spear wall even on level ground. For instance, a 54 man cataphract can beat a 122 man silver shield pikeman on level ground with a frontal charge. One thing I noticed about phalanx on slopes is that the spear tips are closer to the ground if there is an upwards curvature to the slope. The men in the phalanx are leveling their spears at the angle of the slope of their feet. I'm not surprised to see this behavior given the lack of collision detection between spear points and objects such as walls. As you say, this is very likely interacting with the feature that allows cavalry to get past the spears by going over them.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Just to clarify, the cavalry do not even bother to jump, they just gallop straight through the bristling wall of spears. Seeing them jump through the wall of spears annoyed me to the extend that I had Verrcingetorix's no jumping mod installed on v1.1. But then to see cavalry not even needing to jump really is a bit much for my feeling of immersion.

Let me tell you how I first noticed this It's pretty amusing. As Carthage I was attacking a Spanish army north of Cordoba with some militia I build, some gold weapon rebel militia with some experience and two Poeni. With the Spanish left horse heavy I located both the highly prized Poeni there, my center taking on the enemy infantry had the quality militia while I planned my lowly militias to delay the cav on the Spanish for me to win the fight elsewhere. So I march up to the line and the Spanish clash. Imagine my surprise as the formed and stopped Poeni, ready to receive the charge instead of repulsing the cavalry were completely overrun. My quality militia was holding there own against the Spanish infantry, but on the verge of winning, some Spanish infantry already routing, the last Poeni were chased down and the Spanish cavalry thus freed intervened and destroyed the militia from the rear. The green militia I had expected to disintegrated shortly after contact however managed as the only ones to drive off their opponents in full. Against the combined might of the Spanish center and right they stood no chance. It was infact a thrilling battle to play, but that my strongest units used in the best way possible was so utterly and unjustly defeated did sting awfully.

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

even if they jump the phalanx have their sarrisa up too.....soo,it could fatal too.as for cataphrachts their 100+kg armour should even if they just charge act as a heavy arrow and with that speed kil1-3 soldiers,but that also means to take ENOURMOS casualties. :charge:

[Redleg]

I have noticed something like this on some slopes - so when I defend against Cavarly with Phalanx formations - I place a second line of phalanxs in a narrow two man front to cover the gaps between units on the front line. It seems to give a little more protection against the Cav ignoring the Phalanx line when they charge.

However I do take a lot of causalites in these types of battles. But I normally do destroy the cavarly.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Not a bad idea, that. Instead of for example two 8 men deep phalanx units beside each other, two 4 deep phalanx units behind each other. Tried this and I guess I need to learn how to fine tune it a bit more. The first unit still got pasted but the second could see off most comers as they do use their spears on non charging units AKA those cavalry in melee with the first phalanx. But I could definitly see this working to my advantage.
Thanks!

Ofcourse, CA looking into this for the expansion would be better still. ~D