Red Eyes

[weegee]

Finally got the game last night and installed it no problems. Now I have the red eyes from staying up till 3 to show for it.

Some questions, some of which will show how ignorant I can truly be, and some of which may impress you as to how quick a study I can be :bow:

1) After you install VI, is there ever a need to use the original 2 discs of MTW (other than maybe a reinstall or something like that)?

2) I played about 20 turns last night with the Italians because I figured money wise it would be interesting to see what all those buildings do. I cued up all these buildings and units to start producing, but I noticed that only some were built and others weren't. I understand that some buildings take longer to build, but even the ones that said 1 year sometimes took 3 or 4, even though I had plenty of cash to pay for them. Same with units. I'd cue up some galleys to build in Venice along with some spearment, etc. and it might take 5 or 6 turns to complete.

Is there some sort of logic as to what gets built first among your provinces (i.e. better governors, etc.) Or maybe I didn't have them listed in the proper order (i.e. cue the things that take 1 year to build first, and longer one are cued in the other boxes)?

3) I keep hearing about this Italian Light Infantry. Are they noted as such by name or are they simply "spearmen". I teched Venice up the wazoo with various buildings, and eventual Genoa and Milan as well, but never saw any of the specialized units like ILI and Genoa sailors.

4) Re: 2 year papal warning about excommunication. Do you have 2 years to simply conquer the provinence, or do you need to conquer all the provinces of the entire faction in those 2 years?

I attacked Germany who had a position in the territory to the left of Genoa, but didn't get a warning. A few years later, I attacked them in the territory a little north east of Milan (connects with Milan and Venice) and that's when I got warned. Why not on the first assualt on Germans, but then on the second?

5) I guess I was playing very conservative because on many turns I found myself not doing much of anything other than checking building and unit cues and maybe moving a ship around. Am I missing some major steps somewhere?

6) When you go into battle, is there an easy way to find the enemy so you can point your army that way? When I get to that place your army screen before beginning battle, I never know where to put them because I can't find the enemy. Am I too assume that the default setting at least has the troops facing in the right direction?

It was interesting because by turn 5 or 6, I was pretty much allied with every faction except for Germany and Byzantines. I took Serbia fairly easily and built a gold mine and port, and then I guess I got lazy because I was surrounded by allies. It was only when the Germans showed up that I went back on the offensive. I was too scared to invade Greece from Serbia becase the Byzs had several units spread over a couple of different provinces. So I was worried I could knock one out, but then that would leave Serbia open, which was not good because it was quickly developing into rich lands.

Anyway, great game. I can see where the next several hundred hours are going to be spent. I definitely need to work on my battle camera work and troop manuevering though.

[Demon of Light]

Well, you don't ask simple questions, do you? I'll see which ones I can tackle.

1. No

2. On the building cue for any given province, you will see 4 boxes along the bottom. The item on the left most box is the one being worked on. Every other item will be worked on after the completion of the first. They are completed in the order that they appear. Unless I am mistaken, you thought that all buildings on the cue were worked on simultaneously. That would be nice (and it might have even been a bit more realistic) but this is not the case. As work on a buiding progresses, the building being worked on will become unshaded in degrees. The shaded area of a buidling being worked on represents the work left on it. You mentioned that money was not the problem but if it ever is, the computer gives you an insufficient funds message and begins work on all projects you can afford. How it determines priorities between projects remains a mystery to me.

3. They are not spearmen. Italian Light Infantry actually appears in the game under that name. As far as producing any units in the game goes, each unit has a prerequisite for buildings needed in order to produce the unit. Buildings, in turn, have prerequisites for production as well. There is also the matter of eras to consider. There are three eras in the game. (Early, High, Late) Some units only become available once a certain era has been reached while others cease to be available as certain eras are reached. I am uncertain about the requirements for Italian Light Infantry but I am sure that someone will supply that information shortly. (Obviously you need to develope the spearmakers buildings though)

4. The Papal warning does not necessarily come upon the commencement of hostilities. It can come at any time during a war with a Catholic faction that is not itself excommunicated. The warning specifically means that:

You cannot be besieging the faction that the Pope issued the warning for at the end of two years.

You cannot attack any territory belonging to the faction after the two years. This restriction lasts 10 years. It also (not sure though) applies to the relief of seiges that you are under after the end of two years.

Excommunication lasts for as long as your king or the Pope is alive. People have been known to either assasinate the Pope or get their king killed to end an excommunication. (I've also heard of players who despise the Pope so much that they keep a skilled assasin in Rome and kill every Pope that comes up.)


5. Build a navy that covers the known world, build trading posts everywhere, build a modern army, go kill things. If you do not wish to attack your neighbors, launch Crusades or Jihads. If this does not suit you, kill rebels. If this does not suit you or is impossible, check building or unit cues or maybe move a ship around.

6. If you are defending in battle, you can position your troops before battle begins. The shaded are of the mini-map shows you the limits on the space you have to work with. If you are attacking, about the best you can do is change formations.



I sort of shortened the explanation of 5 and 6 because of time constraints. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask or to PM me.

[weegee]

Thanks, Demon. Very helpful. I actually forgot about the shadings on the buildings. I had read that somewhere before, but did not notice it. Of course at 3:00 am after having you eyes glued to a little lap top monitor, what can you expect.

I'm pretty sure I had all the buildings in Venice to produce ILI because I was starting to get feudal sergeants and feudal men at arms for several turns, and I had many buildings popping up after that. But I'll double check the requirements just to be sure.

So would you recommend building the quicker buildings first to get them out of the way? Also, is the consensus to have certain provinces specialize in something (i.e. troop building, vs. economical upgrades, vs. agent producing, etc) or build them up as equally as possible for balance?

[Demon of Light]

With respect to buiding the quicker buildings first, that depends on a myriad of issues related to the situation you find yourself in. Usually it depends on your goals at the moment. If you need a better army, you can build military structures. If you need a happier populace, you make watchtowers, border forts and churches. If you need money, you build ships and trading posts. If you need to upgrade a certain sort of building but have hit the ceiling for what can be done with a Keep or Castle, you upgrade to the next.

With respect to specialized provinces, I prefer balance. I like my provnces to have more than one use. It helps for when you need to make an army in a hurry or for when your special province is invaded. Leaves a person with options. That's just me though.

[weegee]

Another ignorant question. I went through the battle tutorials. When I got to the castle seige one it notes be sure your seige weapons are in range before placing them. How do you know if they are in range? Unfortunately in the scenario, they are already placed so I didn't get a chance to fool around with the placement.

Also, is there any benefit to keeping a princess or emmisary within one of your own provinces, or is it best to always have them outside your kingdom? And do you want to put them in territory right next to one of yours where you can spy anyways with a watchtower/borderfort, or do you want to send them farther out?

[Dragoncrusader]

Hi
I think that you could amswer most of your questions (and new ones) if you got the Complete TW Unit Guide and the Beginners Guide to TW which are available in these forums. They are excelleent and I can highly recommend them.

Italian Infantry are available in the early period and are equivalent to Chivalric Sergents who everyone else gets in the High period ie 150 years later. They are built by a Spear Guild and can be built in any Italian province.

5. No you are ok there are times when you have to build up money armies or tech level. So long as something is happening!

6. If I remember correctly the attacker is always to the South of the map and the defender in the North and nine times out of ten the armies face that way as well.

[Graphic]

Another ignorant question. I went through the battle tutorials. When I got to the castle seige one it notes be sure your seige weapons are in range before placing them. How do you know if they are in range? Unfortunately in the scenario, they are already placed so I didn't get a chance to fool around with the placement.Move the mouse over the part of the wall u want to attack - if the arrow below the bow&arrow is green its in range & can attack that
Also, is there any benefit to keeping a princess or emmisary within one of your own provinces, or is it best to always have them outside your kingdom? And do you want to put them in territory right next to one of yours where you can spy anyways with a watchtower/borderfort, or do you want to send them farther out?If ur not using an agent at the moment, its best to keep them in a province w/ border forts to protect them from assassins

[fuddha]

2)I cued up all these buildings and units to start producing, but I noticed that only some were built and others weren't.

You have said it yourself. You have "cued" them. Only leftmost building in the queue will be built at a time.With queue, one can only choose in what order will smth be built.
Also, are you sure you have money? If you don't have enough money for everything that is ordered, cheapest buildings will be built first. Meaning your expensive castles and gold mines will not be built if you build cheap units who swallow your whole budget. At the begining of your turn, you will be warned that some orders were halted due to lack of funds.



3)Are they noted as such by name or are they simply "spearmen".

Some units can be built only if certain structures exist. You have surely noted that you need spearmaker for spears and bowyer for archers. But in order to be able to build spearmaker, you need to build first fort, then town watch. This is called a tech tree. This principle is used for everything.
I strongly reccomend that you download guides and tech trees from this site!
Also some units are not availible until a certain age. There are 3: early, high and late. And some units can be build only in certain provinces. Genoese Sailors in Genoa, Bulgarian Brigands in Bulgaria...
And some units are unique for a faction. Only Italy can build Italian Infantry, other factions can only hire II mercenaries.



4)Re: 2 year papal warning about excommunication.

If you are catholic and attack another catholic faction that owns 50% less terittory (number of provinces) than you, you will receive a warning from the pope AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TURN. You then have until the BEGINNING of turn after next to end all sieges/withdraw units from enemy provinces. If you manage to do that, you musn't ATTACK that faction for 10 turns to come (defending newly obtained provinces is okay). If you attack that faction during that 10 year period you are excommunicated. If you don't retreat/end sieges during two year warning, you are excommunicated.
Being excommunicated basically means that you can't build crusades and every other catholic faction can attack you without papal warning. And they will...
Watch if pope excomms somebody else. Then he's legal pray for everybody.



5)Am I missing some major steps somewhere?

Play as you wish to play. Some players like to play slowly, taking only easy defendable/profit generating provinces and build up slowly. Other players (like me) like to crush everybody else as soon as possible! There is no proper style of playing, only prefferences.



6) When you go into battle, is there an easy way to find the enemy so you can point your army that way?

Yes, when you get to look around the WHOLE battlefield, you'll notice a white flag in the ground. That's the place you'll be placed. After you press "start deployment" you can:
a) if you are defender - put your units anyway you like as long they are in the circle bordered with wooden poles.
b) if you are attacker - choose a predefined formation (bottom left button).
Usually the enemy will face head on your initial setup (the one your comp. sets you with)

I highly recommend that you download and read guides from the download section of this site!
Have fun!! ~;)

[fuddha]

I also forgot a big piece of advice...
Pope can give only one warning at a time. Meaning, if you know that you are looking at a long war with a fellow catholic faction, you might want to attack another catholic faction first to get a warning.

Example: playing as HRE you might want to attack Denmark (only one border - easy to control) first. Pope then gives you warning against attacking Denmark. Then you can attack any other catholic faction (French, Italian, whatever...) without the fear of excommunication.

[English assassin]

If you are catholic and attack another catholic faction that owns 50% less terittory (number of provinces) than you, you will receive a warning from the pope AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TURN. You then have until the BEGINNING of turn after next to end all sieges/withdraw units from enemy provinces. If you manage to do that, you musn't ATTACK that faction for 10 turns to come (defending newly obtained provinces is okay).

I'm not sure about that last bit. I think I have had times when I've been attacked by a faction against whom I have a warning, defended myself WITHOUT leaving the province that was attacked, and been excommed.

Still, once that happens at least you are free to cry havoc and let slip... etc.

[fuddha]

I think I have had times when I've been attacked by a faction against whom I have a warning, defended myself WITHOUT leaving the province that was attacked, and been excommed.


Hmmm...
Do you have any unresolved sieges? And was that province (which was attacked) previously owned by the attacking faction??
Also, maybe you attacked after the two year period and within the ten year period. That would excomm you instantly...

I see the thing with excomms like that it grants the defender a "right" to reclaim lost provinces. If defender reclaimed a lost province, the attacker cannot "rereclaim" it for himself without being excommed. I must say that excomms have flavoured the game considerably, and that is one of the greatest things CA has done in this game. It fits perfectly in the given setting and it changes the game mechanics to a whole new level.

It's a piety though, that because of the fear of being excommed, I seldom get to fight a battle. I just surround the target I'm after from neighbouring provinces and/or sea and overwhelm it. The AI then either:
a) retreats all of his armies in a single province that I can't reach, or
b) fights with me one small desicive battle which I always win.
If he retreats to a single province or two, I can keep the short border with my whole army while some of his die in the sieges. Then he just sits in that one province fearing to reconquer what is lost, because he can't guard more than one province - I'll then invade both of them.

Unfortunately, wars are won on the strategic map more often than not. It all comes down to blitzin' the AI to some remote province you can easily guard.

[weegee]

More good advice and lots of little "expert" tricks. Thanks.

I've read the beginner's guide, unit guide, tech trees, etc. Went back and reread them after playing several more rounds and lots more info stuck with me. Very good stuff.

Couple of more questions:

I'm about 30 turns in to an Italian campaign. I've added Serbia, Naples, and Greece (in that order). I'm about to have a very heated battle for Greece. I kept most of my attacking army in Serbia because I've built up the economy there and it's pumping out money. So of course, the Byz's are hitting the weaker army in Greece (good AI, at least in this case). It's going to be a hell of a fight. I don't think I can win, but I hope to reduce the enemy as much as possible for the next fight. I've got 3 genoa sailors, 1 fuedal sarge, 1 reg spear, 1 half strength fuedal MAA, and 1 half strength UM. They've got 2 Trez archer, 4 Byz Inf, 2 Slav warrior, 2 peasant, and the killer, 2 Kataphraktoi or Khwarazmian (can't remember which, I think the first though). I'm hoping to thin them out and then either get routed or continue to fight on to the death. My force in Serbia is much stronger and should be able to either counter attack back or at least pose them with some problems. What sort of tactics do you suggest and who should I target to thin them down?

And now for the thorn in my side. Sicily decides to sink one my ships. We had such a good trade going :dizzy2: I've tried sending princesses and emissaries to cease fire, but they want this fight bad. So what sort of ships work best against what Sicily has in the ocean? I've got 3 Dromons and 3 Galleys that I'm trying to concentrate into one or two zones. Should I stack/not stack? What should I hit with? I'm worried that if I don't take out at least one of their ships, they'll make a push on Corsica or Sard because those were left thinnly defended to hit Greece and Naples. Of course Byz smelled blood in the water and also sent over a ship to start hassling me as well. :furious3:

[fuddha]

Well fighting of 960 units with 440 units will be a problem. I would lose...

I'd split my forces evenly in Greece and Serbia. He won't attack if he doesn't have more units to show up with. Pressing Byz hard and taking Bulgaria, Greece and Constantinople is a must. Especially for trading Italians. Try to bring more units than he has and frighten him to Nicacea and Trebizond. Seek help in Egypt and Turkey. They'll keep him busy. If you don't have that many forces (3-4 stacks will be needed to take "the big C"), retreat from Greece to Serbia and wait till muslims weaken Byzant. If you have a fort in Greece, you could also retreat to it and counter attack a turn later.

If it comes to a fight, I'd try to pin his general kataphraktoi (probably king or prince) with spear units and flank it with whatever you got (armour piercing UM and one more spear), concentrate missile fire and hope you'll kill him before the rest of his army comes to the rescue. But I don't think the AI will be stupid enough to charge katatanks in your spears... Although it has happend many times.
Also try to get Slavic Javelin from Serbia - if katatanks are pinned down with spears, 4-5 plotoones can wipe them out if positioned properly.

Naval combat - it's been talked about in this forum. The thread is called "naval combat - to stack or not to stack" (or something like that). No need to repeat.

It was a mistake not to deal with Sicilians first. If they manage to outproduce you in amount of ships, you're in a world of pain... ~D

[weegee]

thanks Fuddha. I've been waiting for the Byz's to implode but it's slow coming. They're currently at war with Turkey, but it's too far off my front to see what exactly is going on. I've been keeping an eye out on the Germans, French and Argonese because there's lots of action up there, and my northern borders are lightly defended. I'm allied with most of the factions, except Sicily and Byz of course.

I'm thinking about trying to cease fire with Byz and then crushing Sicily. The problem is getting them to accept. I've got ship making abilities in Venice and Genoa, so I'm hoping I can pump out boats faster than Sicily. Even they're going to have to decide whether to go with boats or troops and once I can build up Naples a little, they'll be at risk for a land assualt, and not this petty ocean going stuff. Although the Germans are starting to scare me because they've taken Croatia and basically have me surrounded on my northern fronts.

I've got the cash (about 30k) stock piled to dig in and start pumping out troops. Now it's just a question of priority troop builds. Luckily I'm only a handful of turns away from ILI and that might just save the day. So long as I can keep my ships connected to Serbia and/or Naples.

P.S. I caught the naval stack thread after I posted. Good stuff over there. I guess I'll try hitting them with as much as I got on a one to one basis.

[Procrustes]

I'm about 30 turns in to an Italian campaign. I've added Serbia, Naples, and Greece (in that order). I'm about to have a very heated battle for Greece. I kept most of my attacking army in Serbia because I've built up the economy there and it's pumping out money. So of course, the Byz's are hitting the weaker army in Greece (good AI, at least in this case). It's going to be a hell of a fight. I don't think I can win, but I hope to reduce the enemy as much as possible for the next fight. I've got 3 genoa sailors, 1 fuedal sarge, 1 reg spear, 1 half strength fuedal MAA, and 1 half strength UM. They've got 2 Trez archer, 4 Byz Inf, 2 Slav warrior, 2 peasant, and the killer, 2 Kataphraktoi or Khwarazmian (can't remember which, I think the first though). I'm hoping to thin them out and then either get routed or continue to fight on to the death. My force in Serbia is much stronger and should be able to either counter attack back or at least pose them with some problems. What sort of tactics do you suggest and who should I target to thin them down?

That would be a really, really tough fight - you are outnumbered by more than 2:1 and your troops are badly outclassed. What are the opposing generals like? It will help a lot if the Byz general is crappy. If you decide to fight it I think your best bet would be to back yourself up against some woods, preferablly with some elevation and a very long distance between you and where they will set up. You want to use your archers to thin out their better troops - don't let them fire on the peasants or slavs. Concentrate on their general whenever you get the chance, and their byz inf or other kat otherwise. You need to kill the general to get a route going. Try to draw their cav into the woods and try to get your spears on his cav - especially the general. Try to fend off his spears with your few MAA and UM. If (when) it looks like you are going to be overwhelmed in a melee don't hesitate to charge your archers at the peasants or slavs - you're desperate. Kill any prisoners you may capture during the battle as the tide is apt to change. Do anything you can to route them while protecting your general - you are already taking moral penalties because of the imbalance in forces, if your general dies you are finished.

This is really desperate stuff, but I do it sometimes for fun. Even if you loose (which is likely), try to take a bunch of the Byz soldiers with you before you retreat to your fortification. If you have troops nearby they can come to the rescue next year.

This gets a lot easier when you have some better troops. It takes a while, but as the Italians you can get the Italian Infantry - really great spears, especially in early. Also, you need a little bit of cav yourself to help harass the enemy and draw their formations apart. You can get mounted crossbows by building only the first level horse-farmer (you need 20% farms first) - they are cheap but kind of timid and they shoot for crap, but they still make effective light cav until you can get better. If you can build feudal sgts, you can build mounted sgts with just the second level horse-farm. (Sturdier light cav, but no missiles.) Build armorers when you have the time/money, and build a weapons workshop in Tuscany after a while. Build religious building to get moral bonuses for troops built in those provinces.

[weegee]

More very good tips, thanks.

Assuming this war between myself and Byzs goes several years, probably even decades, what sort of unit am I best building to counter act. Seems like they have a lot of sword type units and of course those blasted heavy cavs. So obviously I'm going to need a lot of spears, hopefully soon ILI, I guess I'll pump out fuedal sergeants until then. How about militia sergeants (? I think that's them, the next unit above urban militia). Seems like they can do some damage against horses and swords.

The Sicilians have 3 or 4 princes of age, so there's all the Royal Knights to deal with over there. Oh fun! I've only got the King's and the 1 Prince. And they're at opposite sides of the kingdom. I think I'm headed for disaster. Funny how a small 2 province faction will probably end up being my down fall.

If Germany were smart they'd slam down into Milan and Genoa because I only have a couple of UM in each. Thank God they've proven to be loyal allies up until this point, knock on wood. If they grab one of those I'd be done in about 7 turns.

[weegee]

Just to close out this thread. The Battle of Greece was a well fought fight. I actually miscounted the Byz force a little bit. They had 2 Byz Infantry not 4. Anyway, I put myself on top of a very steep hill at the edge of the board, that way when I routed it would be a quick end. Archers were spread out in a long thin line, almost like a unproportioned, loosely shaped V. Spears in front to protect, and my MAA and UM on the flanks.

I targeted the heavy cav all the way up the slope and managed to clip some of them with some of my spear units. Then I sent in UM to swarm them. My boys lasted about 4 or 5 minutes, a lot more than I thought. I guess those hills (actually more like a mountain) really do help. One unit of Katas was cut down to 12 men and the other to 15. They're inf, slavs, and archers took about 15% losses as well. I don't remember exactly, but my losses were 120 compared to their 320 or so. Good match. On the next turn they sent over a princess to ask for a cease fire. ~:cheers:

[Procrustes]

Hey, you done real good! Thanks for posting this thread - I had a lot of fun following it.

(I have a lot of fun with those small, desperate fights - I kinda prefer them to the massive clashes and messing with reinforcements.)

[fuddha]

Good one!

I also prefer those small early fights... The AI rarely wants to battle epic battles, it would rather retreat the cowardly bastard!!
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