New PCZone Mongol Review

[Fatboy]

I have just had a look at a new Mongol review on PCZone.co.uk. It has some new screen shots including one of the map editor!
It confirms that the dust clouds have been added to the game & contains a strategy map screen advising on how much to Bribe an army!
Well worth a look.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Good catch, Fatboy-san! This is a very, very interesting preview, and it has lots of new information!

Follow the link here (http://www.pczone.co.uk/Sword_Dojo/previews/vasion/vasion1.html).

In case it asks you to provide a username/password (it shouldn't), and you don't have those already, I created a dummy account for this specific purpose.

Username: Sword_Dojo
Password: samurai (case sensitive, no caps)

Don't try anything clever with that account though, I'll get all the flames as it has my email address... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

As the preview says: "If this isn't one of the strongest add-on packs ever we'll commit seppuku. And eat our own legs."

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"Understood the Sword his meaning, / Understood the hero's question, / And it answered him as follows: / 'Wherefore at thy heart's desire / Should I not thy flesh devour, / And drink up thy blood so evil? / I who guiltless flesh have eaten, / Drank the blood of those who sinned not?'"
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 327-334

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-13-2001).]

[johnmcd]

Sweet, I on that bribary screen I wonder what the star banner is next to the army strength one? Something to do with the strategy school? General rank? Something else?

[Ii Naomasa]

I wonder how much of a reworking of the main strategic engine is going into this expansion pack. As it currently stands, bribery would probably be something like this: Pay 'x' amount because general is 'y' ranking, the army is 'z' size and sits in a province with 'v' loyalty.

Unfortunately, that turns the whole traitorous groups thing into an ahistorical method and also allows those clans who own the richer lands to abuse the power even further (imagine playing a multiplayer campaign and facing off against someone who owns most of the easter provinces. You're holding him off well with your meager troops at a critical river crossing province, while working on building up an attack force. Now imagine all he has to do is stop building a castle or two and suddenly he can just buy up that stalwart group of defenders...scary).

Betrayals were more often caused by disillusionment with one's current lord and/or your position in the grand scheme of things and a feeling that things could be improved with a change. A one shot koku bribe rarely would have done it. It would've involved guaranteed vassalhood probably some small kind of promotion. Now, this would be near impossible to implement into Shogun, but there should be some kind of general's loyalty factor that could be put in with minor effort. Perhaps generals who aren't utilized (or only utilized in poor decisions) would be more easily swayed. Nobunaga's Ambition did a good job, as you were constantly watching for signs of decaying morale among your subordinates to avoid turncoats.

In addition, traitors usually 'officially' turned about the time it looked like their lords were about to fall. This made their betrayal most 'understandable' to the social order. Betraying a lord who was still going strong was risky because your name could be raked through the mud to the point where no one really wanted to associate with you. Betrayals often happened on the field of battle, as it both was often more potent there and also help to ensure that it WAS your former lord's final days. Segikahara is a prime example of such, as that critical battle might have gone either way had not Tokugawa secretly gained the loyalty of some of the troops under Ishido.

My apologies for, as usual, running long winded, but while I welcome all the new features, I'm just hoping that the developers took the time to think about implementing them more thoroughly than just 'well, they want to be able to bribe troops, let's just give it to them'.

[The Black Ship]

Well the unit they were attempting to bribe were Ronin, so maybe that will be the limitation? At least it's something new for the strategic side of the game, but yeah Ii your supposition is probably correct.

I'm stoked about the map editor! Poor Tosa , Krae, and others had to struggle before while we'll get to create our maps quite easily http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Puzz3D]

Say BlackShip, did you see them in the editor screen shot at the left? Ships!! Three of them. A prophetic choice of nick on your part I'd say. I wonder what it all means? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Johnmcd-san, it was speculated (admittedly, only by me) from the previous strategy map screenshot that a small banner beside the unit icon (near the bottom of the screen, NOT the army piece) represents the general rank. This might have something to do with it, or maybe it denotes the army's average honor. Or something.

Naomasa-sama, your criticisms are valid, as always. I'll nevertheless pay the Devil's Advocate and say that army bribery isn't that unrealistic, if done properly. Considering what I speculated above, a general/army loyalty level isn't completely impossible, given that the devs apparently seek to beef up the strategic interface in general. Furthermore, a one-shot koku cost is just as unrealistic as a one-shot koku cost for an army unit; they shouldn't really be taken generally. Think that you're presenting the "bribee" with gifts and a fief, thus giving up a portion of your tax income. This may sound weird, but I often bring a role-playing aspect to the game by assigning my generals as "lords" to various provinces. To some extent, STW is as complex a game as you make it...

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"Understood the Sword his meaning, / Understood the hero's question, / And it answered him as follows: / 'Wherefore at thy heart's desire / Should I not thy flesh devour, / And drink up thy blood so evil? / I who guiltless flesh have eaten, / Drank the blood of those who sinned not?'"
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 327-334

[The Scourge]

I like the bit about capture the flag.
Could this mean the end of camping.
Or would that have to be king of the hill?

[The Daimyo]

I am wondering if the whole bribe thing will introduce new things to the equation that were impossible before.
For instance, when you have allied yourself with all of the bordering provinces, you are stuck in the middle until either you attack one of them, and break the alliance, or until they attack you.
Now, with bribery, might it be possible to attack other clans beyond the borders of you own provinces by passing peacefully through an allied province? Or would you be able to "help" your allies when they need help? Would you be able to coordinate with the AI to repel invaders? This is bothersome to me.
I believe this would give the game more depth and allow for more unique events.
Another thing we're in the dark about is the possible overlap of the 12th century campaigns into the 16th century campaigns.
Will it be possible for the Mongols to stick it out for 400 years? Or will the leaders, reguardless of all your expert playing and managing, die off and leave you in the same boat as the clans in the Sengoku Jidai campaigns ala mid 18th century?
Hmm...
Will the developers go the extra mile to connect the 2? That would be most interesting. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[solypsist]

I seem to remember a little something about improved diplomacy - namely real penalties for attacking allies being added. Maybe this bribe thing is indicative of this improvement.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

TheDaimyo-sama, am I correct when I think you're saying that you want to play a 400 year campaign? Some of us here consider that standard 70 years a long game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

But good suggestions about the diplomacy/bribery connection. Now am I wrong, or was "penalties for breaking alliances" in the feature list for the 1.13 patch, already? Hmm...

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"Understood the Sword his meaning, / Understood the hero's question, / And it answered him as follows: / 'Wherefore at thy heart's desire / Should I not thy flesh devour, / And drink up thy blood so evil? / I who guiltless flesh have eaten, / Drank the blood of those who sinned not?'"
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 327-334

[johnmcd]

Have you folk really timed out on the 70 year rule? Normally within seven years I either own half of Japan and get on with the formality of dealing with the rest or I am reduced to two poor provinces that nobody can be bothered capturing. How do you have such slow games? I feel like I sit back and do infrastructure things too.

[Vanya]

Did you guys notice that one of the screen shots on the 2nd page contains a unit without a picture?!? It is likely one of the undisclosed units... My guess is they whited it out to keep it secret...

[Hosakawa Tito]

That whited out unit is very intriguing Vanya,it must be one of the two unknown units.I also notice that they are all honor 9
level troops!I wonder if that might have something to do with the Kensai warrior in that particular army or the unrevealed unit general?Should be some very bloody battles with honor 9 troops!
Tito

[Shiro]

This preview says that, "The graphics and AI have been noticeably improved." I hadn't heard anything about a graphics update. And I thought the graphics looked about the same. What do you guys think?

[Fatboy]

I just noticed a ship? in the top left hand corner of the "Bribe" screen (off Hizen).
Could this indicate a Mongol invasion fleet?

[Shiro]

You're right Fatboy! I agree with you. The ship probably indicates a invading bunch o' Mongels.

[TooCool]

to Vanya:
I think that the unit without picture is the tent. We can see the tent in another screenshot with the same unit without picture.

[Shiro]

Will we see naval combat? The picture of the three ships (top left, first page) that Puzz3D pointed out may indicate some naval battles. If your look closely at the picture you can see the ship has a yellow flag like that of a soldier.

[TooCool]

i don't think that we'll see naval combat. The boats we can see in the screenshot are like the houses and trees: it's only decoration (i hope that is the correct word in english)
But i hope i am wrong ;-)