Phalanx rank depth and horse acrobatics

[Proletariat]

Okay, I just started out an imperial campaign as the Greeks. Second turn Carthage attacks Syracuse, no big deal. Defending with phalanx units in a city usually is a piece of cake, and I'm also a bit excited to watch some elephant slaughter when they try to charge my phalanx.


Instead of just setting a phalanx unit at the mouth of each street leading to the town square like I usually do, I decide to set up three phalanx units at the inside of the gate in a concave semi-circle. Each was set to three ranks deep.




The enemy eventually breaks through the gate (a unit of iberian infantry which is already weakened from the boiling oil/archer fire of mine) and they charge the spears and get slaughtered. Being zoomed in, I didn't notice until they collided that the Carthaginian General was crashing through the gate. Well, a few of his unit died instantly, but then the middle hoplite unit gave way and the formation was destroyed. My General was behind this unit and charged and routed the General, but my questions to the community are these.


Was my line so easily smashed because I had my hoplites in only a three-deep line? Because in 1.1 this sure never mattered.

Has anyone else noticed the cav-leaping phalanx units phenomenon that was present in 1.1?

I plan on doing some testing tonight when I get home, but for the time being am curious if any other org members have noticed this or know where other people have researched this before.

[The Stranger]

so, what is your point.

[Proletariat]

so, what is your point.


Sorry, only half the post showed up the first time I put it up since I tried to get cute half way through and show how the concave line of hoplites at the gate looked with backslashes.


Oh, and another thing I find completely frigging outrageous is the AI's total ignorance of the bloody special ability button. I watched one stupid elephant of theirs run amok for 15 minutes. He was the last one to leave the battlefield about five minutes (in triple speed, at that) after the rest of the enemy had routed.

"To hell with hitting the special ability buttons for amok elephants, but shoot fire arrows at every single unit you ever see ever? Why, yes please!"

:furious3:

[The Stranger]

oh oke

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I think the horse acrobatics was reduced aith 1.2 patch, and I am absoluletly convinced that setting phalanx on 5/6 ranks help them greatly to handle frontal cavalry charge.

There have been contradicting statement about whether or not there is a rank bonus for phalanx.
If there is one, then ranks matter... But even if there is none, having your phalanx set on more ranks will help to handle cavalry charge, as the cavalry wil not be able to go throught the whole phalanx (and do the funny "circle around" animation that is just DEADLY), and you are more likely to keep an orderly formation.

I also think that phalanx with more ranks can push back their opponent more than if ranks are thin. I had hoplite on 6 ranks pushing back Pontic pike on 3 ranks (and the pike is longer...).

Louis,

[The Stranger]

were you using regular hoplites without any mods. if right i know the mistake.
regular hoplites are not that reliable. their morale is four. when a general charges in their morale drops but your general was present too so that didn't matter. because they charged your unit started to waver and taking losses and eventually started to rout. it's not the three deep formation but the unit that cracked and the formation you used are only for good troops that can hold crucial places in the battle line.

and in bridge battles

[Zatoichi]

I seem to remember reading that the leaping cavalry have been toned down a bit in 1.2, I've not been able to confirm or deny this so far though. I have seen much improved phalanx behaviour in general after applying 1.2 - my Selucid campaign is a real real joy thanks to the lack of sideways shuffle.

However, last night I did notice that when defending a gate with 3 phalanx units, my 'point' unit executed a rather bizarre 180 degrees turn, and started menacing the oncoming troops by walking towards them backwards.

Obviously, this was some kind of psychological mind trick thought up by my general - 'Show them your contempt! When they realise how little you fear them, they'll run screaming!' I didn't check to see if it was working - I reordered them to attack, and they turned around sharpish. This may have been happening pre-1.2, I just didn't notice it until last night...

[Proletariat]

it's not the three deep formation but the unit that cracked and the formation you used are only for good troops that can hold crucial places in the battle line.

and in bridge battles

Eh, I figured if defending a small bottle neck worked with bridges I'd give it a shot at a gate. Oh well.

And they were the regular hoplites you get in the beginning of the game. (Not the militia guys, next unit up on the tree. I forget the name being so unfamiliar with this faction's units.)

So maybe the answer is much simpler than I thought. Don't use worthless units at the gate and beef up the ranks.

[The Stranger]

Their name is HOPLITES

[Bob the Insane]

General units always have a funny effect on phalanx because of their 2 hit points i believe... This means that all of the men (and horses) in the unit will survive the initial and practically suicidal charge in to the HOPLITES (thank you Emperor Umeu 1 ~D )... This gives them the opportunity to push into the formation, disrupting it and fighting on...

[The Stranger]

yes that's it. but i modded it and didn't give the general unit extra hitpoints but extra morale, wich is way better.

[Puzz3D]

The primary/secondary weapon fix has made the phalanx weaker to cav because their secondary weapon is weaker, and the cav forces the pikemen to switch to the secondary weapon by jumping onto the front row of pikes and into the phalanx.

[Sid_Quibley]

There is an in depth disscussion on spears here.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=39916&page=1

And also details of a file that remove the horse jump anim.

A new version of cav fix(compatible with 1.2 patch) is linked by Simetrical on page four.

[MacBeth]

IMHO three ranks deep is pretty thin against horsies

[The_Emperor]

You need at least Four ranks deep when facing cavalry.

As a general rule I also sugguest you place another Phalanx behind your frontal one... That way should any horses manage to push through the first they will have to contend with another one behind.

Sometimes the first Phalanx suffers badly in the initial charge, but on those occasions they act as a speedbump to slow the enemy down for the second Phalanx who pretty much always hold.

Its a standard tactic for me whenever I do city fights.

[Puzz3D]

So you need two phalanx units to stop one cavalry unit from the front.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I'd say you need a 5/6 rank deep phalanx unit to stop a cavalry unit from the front. 3 is definitly not enough.

Louis,

[The_Emperor]

So you need two phalanx units to stop one cavalry unit from the front.

Not really as I say the second one is there only in case the first one fails... Very often the first Phalanx can hold up an entire army in a tight city street!

The cavalry units that are most likely to get through are the Generals with their bonus hitpoints, should they impact with a hefty charge they will suffer, but they can disrupt the Phalanx formation enough for other units to exploit and collapse it...

The other thing about a Hoplite Phalanx is the more ranks you have the more vulnerable you are to the natural 'wrap-around' flanking of enemy units.

As i say the second unit is a precaution, because there is always the chance the enemy might overpower the frontal Phalanx.

[Puzz3D]

Phalanx looses to cavalry frontally even when 8 deep. Take a 54 man Cataphract and charge a 121 man Silver Shield Pikeman. The Catapharct will wipeout the phalanx, and only loose 20 men. I've done this test in custom battle on medium difficulty and in multiplayer with the same result.

[The Stranger]

no they won't, 108 cataphracts vs 160 libian spearmen
result cATAPphracts rout and killed 78 men and lost 89

[Puzz3D]

54 Catapharacts beat 121 Silver Shield Pikemen frontally, and only loose 20 men doing it.

I just did your large unit 108 Cataphract vs 161 Liberian Spearmen test and it was no contest. The Cataphracts annihilated the Liberian Spearmen frontally killing 137 and only loosing 2 men, and that was with me putting the spearmen in guard mode. When I controlled the Cataphact, I routed the Liberian Spearmen on contact killing 43 and loosing 0 men.

[Red Harvest]

no they won't, 108 cataphracts vs 160 libian spearmen
result cATAPphracts rout and killed 78 men and lost 89

Libyan spearmen do not have phalanx ability, so you just proved that a lizard doesn't taste just like chicken...by cooking and eating a turtle. ~;)

[The Stranger]

oh wait, i modded the game so,

i'll let you see my morale layout

peasants=0
militias=2
light units=6
medium units=9 Lybian so they got 5 extra morale in my game
heavy units=12 CATAPHRACTS
elite units=14
berserkers=16
spartans=18

[The Stranger]

Libyan spearmen do not have phalanx ability, so you just proved that a lizard doesn't taste just like chicken...by cooking and eating a turtle. ~;)
but i also tried it with Praetorian Cavalry vs elite Hoplite

Elite hoplites beated the crap out of those Praetorian cavs

[Red Harvest]

Not sure which hoplites you mean when you say "elite."

I just did a battery of tests: 1vs1 against Libyan Spearmen, Poeini Infantry, and Sacred Band Infantry. Large units, medium difficulty, grassland.

Results:
Cataphract Cavalry beat all 3. Cataphracts are one of the few units where this actually isn't crazy--perhaps over done, but not crazy. They are armoured in a fashion that should allow them to disrupt spear/pike formations.

Praetorian Cavalry beat all 3. This is nuts, but praetorian cav are a fantasy unit so I'm not surprised.

Legionary Cav also beat Poeni. This is just wrong! But they bust up the formation and don't take many casualties from their suicide charge, so I am not surprised.

Equites narrowly lose to Libyan Infantry.

Conclusion: I am going to need to mod. positive mount effects in for phalangites vs. cavalry. I might also need to reduce mount mass so that they are less effective at disrupting a phalanx with a charge.

Next up...see how cav does vs. missile units.

[BeeSting]

Cataphract Cavalry beat all 3. Cataphracts are one of the few units where this actually isn't crazy--perhaps over done, but not crazy. They are armoured in a fashion that should allow them to disrupt spear/pike formations.

Praetorian Cavalry beat all 3. This is nuts, but praetorian cav are a fantasy unit so I'm not surprised.

Legionary Cav also beat Poeni. This is just wrong! But they bust up the formation and don't take many casualties from their suicide charge, so I am not surprised.

Yes, i agree.

Cats being able to break phalanx sounds reasonable, but for non-armored horses to run right through a wall of spears without taking a lot of casualty is nonsense.

I'm gonna delete legionary praetorian cavs; like you said, they are "fantasy units". Rome was an infantry based army, and their strength should end there.

[BeeSting]

54 Catapharacts beat 121 Silver Shield Pikemen frontally, and only loose 20 men doing it.

I just did your large unit 108 Cataphract vs 161 Liberian Spearmen test and it was no contest. The Cataphracts annihilated the Liberian Spearmen frontally killing 137 and only loosing 2 men, and that was with me putting the spearmen in guard mode. When I controlled the Cataphact, I routed the Liberian Spearmen on contact killing 43 and loosing 0 men.

Have you tried going against three chev vet units?

[Puzz3D]

I removed the horse jumping, and now the phalanx works much better. Silver Shield Pikemen and Sacred Band Infantry beat Catapharcts in frontal assault and kill them at a rate of 2 to 1. Poeni Infantry kill Cataphracts at a rate of 1 to 1 and win after repelling up to 8 charges. Liberian Infantry loose to two charges by Cataphracts killing only 4 of them. These results are in custom battle with the AI controlling the Cataphracts which means they don't switch to their maces after charging.

I'm convinced that this is how LongJohn balanced the game, and someone came in later and put in the jumping horses which screwed up the balance.

[Kraxis]

I'm convinced that this is how LongJohn balanced the game, and someone came in later and put in the jumping horses which screwed up the balance.
Can you say MARKETING? It is obvious to me.
The jumping horses look great, in fact they look cool. But obviously not much thought was put into its effects. That is a hallmark of marketing.
I remember that when I heard about this in those three interviews from E3 (I think) I voiced a fear that those jumping horse might disrupt my phalanxes (how I looked forward to them :smitten: ), but I was convinced by someone that the jumpers were about to die because they were beset by warriors right away, or that they would die on impact.

I would love if the game could keep the jumpers, but not mess up balance. Making the jumpers very weak (say -15 to def) after the jump for about 5 seconds should do it. That or let them die when they impact with those spears and pikes pointing into the air (which does nothing now it appears).

[Red Harvest]

I removed the horse jumping, and now the phalanx works much better. Silver Shield Pikemen and Sacred Band Infantry beat Catapharcts in frontal assault and kill them at a rate of 2 to 1. Poeni Infantry kill Cataphracts at a rate of 1 to 1 and win after repelling up to 8 charges. Liberian Infantry loose to two charges by Cataphracts killing only 4 of them. These results are in custom battle with the AI controlling the Cataphracts which means they don't switch to their maces after charging.

I'm convinced that this is how LongJohn balanced the game, and someone came in later and put in the jumping horses which screwed up the balance.


Where did you get the new skeleton.dat mod for this? I assume there is a new one for 1.2?

In my tests I was the cav. and did a single charge. The problem for the phalangites was that the cav penetrated the spearwall completely and the infantry then switched to secondary weapons. It wasn't that so many of them went behind as that there was no spear length seperation. The cav were right up against the shields of the infantry.

[hrvojej]

I removed the horse jumping, and now the phalanx works much better.

I would be interested in doing this change as well. Could you please provide info on how to do it? Thanks.

[The Stranger]

Not sure which hoplites you mean when you say "elite."

I just did a battery of tests: 1vs1 against Libyan Spearmen, Poeini Infantry, and Sacred Band Infantry. Large units, medium difficulty, grassland.

Results:
Cataphract Cavalry beat all 3. Cataphracts are one of the few units where this actually isn't crazy--perhaps over done, but not crazy. They are armoured in a fashion that should allow them to disrupt spear/pike formations.

Praetorian Cavalry beat all 3. This is nuts, but praetorian cav are a fantasy unit so I'm not surprised.

Legionary Cav also beat Poeni. This is just wrong! But they bust up the formation and don't take many casualties from their suicide charge, so I am not surprised.

Equites narrowly lose to Libyan Infantry.

Conclusion: I am going to need to mod. positive mount effects in for phalangites vs. cavalry. I might also need to reduce mount mass so that they are less effective at disrupting a phalanx with a charge.

Next up...see how cav does vs. missile units.

i mean ARMOURED HOPLITES. i say elite cause when u click on them they say 'hoplite elite'.

[The Stranger]

Not sure which hoplites you mean when you say "elite."

I just did a battery of tests: 1vs1 against Libyan Spearmen, Poeini Infantry, and Sacred Band Infantry. Large units, medium difficulty, grassland.

Results:
Cataphract Cavalry beat all 3. Cataphracts are one of the few units where this actually isn't crazy--perhaps over done, but not crazy. They are armoured in a fashion that should allow them to disrupt spear/pike formations.

Praetorian Cavalry beat all 3. This is nuts, but praetorian cav are a fantasy unit so I'm not surprised.

Legionary Cav also beat Poeni. This is just wrong! But they bust up the formation and don't take many casualties from their suicide charge, so I am not surprised.

Equites narrowly lose to Libyan Infantry.

Conclusion: I am going to need to mod. positive mount effects in for phalangites vs. cavalry. I might also need to reduce mount mass so that they are less effective at disrupting a phalanx with a charge.

Next up...see how cav does vs. missile units.

well it doesn't happen in my game and i'll tell you why and wich i modded.

here comes the layout

all spearmen and phalanxes have a mount efect of +4 against chariots, cavalry and eles

i added additional morale like this

peasants=0
militia=2
light=6
medium=9
heavy=12
elite=14
berserker=16
spartan=18

made cavalry more expensive but that's inrelevant now.

gave all spear units the 'spear atribute'.

[Sid_Quibley]

Puzz,
"I removed the horse jumping, and now the phalanx works much better."Glad a respected multiplayer has caught on to this.Maybe we can now get it in a mp mod.

As for the fix,you need a modified skeletons.dat file,availiable here.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19041&st=36

Scroll down ro Alins post(hes the guy who made the 1.2 version).

Then you need to copy it to Rometotalwar/data/animations folder,back up the origional file if necessary.

[Puzz3D]

Vercingetorix made the original no jumping mod for v1.1, and it was modified for v.12 by Alin and posted up as a zip by Simetrical. Backup your skeletons.dat file in data\animations, and then unzip this file to that location. It's available here. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=329490)

Without the jumping horses I'm getting results in custom battle that seem more reasonable. For instance, greek light lancers cannot beat Liberian spearmen, but Greek heavy cavalry can with two charges and Companion cavalry can with one charge. Poeni infantry can withstand charges from all of these three cav types, and even withstood 4 charges by Praetorian cav with about 1 to 1 kill ratio. All these tests were with large unit size on grassyflatland map with the AI controlling the cav so I could have the infantry stopped in guard mode and ready to accept the cav charge each time. If the phalanx is caught moving with its spears raised, the cav will flatten it. The spearmen and phalanx were 4 deep. There is still considerable penetration into the phalanx by the heavy cav types, but the entire front row of pikes is not being disabled by jumping horses.

[hrvojej]

Vercingetorix made the original no jumping mod for v1.1, and it was modified for v.12 by Alin and posted up as a zip by Simetrical. Backup your skeletons.dat file in data\animations, and then unzip this file to that location. It's available here. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=329490)
Much appreciated! Thanks.

[hrvojej]

Erm, I should rename the file inside to skeletons.dat and copy it to the DAta/animations folder, right?

[Puzz3D]

Forgot to mention that. First unzip it to \data\amimations, and then rename it to skeletons.dat after you renamed the original skeletons.dat to something else. I also made a folder under \My Documuments called \Rome\original files where I put a copy of all the original RTW files that I replace.