cataphracts vs companions [Archive]

jerby

02-20-2005, 19:09

playing seleucids and wodnering why I should go for companions when I already have cataphracts? for me, I think they should trade places for a more logical order ( in strength) but then, companions were the elite, so that can't be right.
so, when you can't let companions trained before cat's you have to tune em.
companions should be stronger! they look wicked but still don't cut it.
maybe up the number, maybe 35 or something
maybe improve def.skill. or attack skill? :charge:

what do you think that has to be changed, caus like this. seleucids dont need companions.

Alexander_The_Great

02-20-2005, 19:30

i made a 1v1 cataphracts agains companions the one who charged won

SpencerH

02-20-2005, 19:35

I found cats better with the vanilla game. The companions were likely to die in a melee.

The Stranger

02-20-2005, 19:40

no compainons shouldn't be better cataphracts have less attack and charge but better armour so way better fighting macedon and greeks and egypt while companions are useful vs pontus rome ensoforth

jerby

02-20-2005, 20:08

emperor, not following you. do you mean companions are better against sword-armed infantry and cat's better against phalaxes? or soemthing else?

even tough, why would seleucids have comp. when you have cats. companions where the elite. nobelmen. can't they get some plus?

The Stranger

02-20-2005, 20:15

yes they were the social elite, cataphracts were not

jerby

02-20-2005, 20:18

yes they were the social elite, cataphracts were not
so why are they just as strong/weaker? didn't elite have superior training

soda

02-20-2005, 20:36

The cataphracts are borrowed from the Parthian people whereas the Companion (elite cavalry) goes back to Alexander and the Macedonians. Two different types of cavalry from two different cultures.

Khorak

02-20-2005, 20:38

Aren't Companions faster? That's why you'd want to use them. Great big honking charge in a faster package.

jerby

02-20-2005, 20:41

ok, but then companion still have a setback. their training ability. cat's are trained in a large settlement and comps in huge. so by the time you have companions you have already conquered teh east and start heading for macedonia.
so to compensate that setback, companions should have better stats. it will make em the elite.

jerby

02-20-2005, 21:03

is speed so important? my army is phalanx-based and then I should choose the weaker, harder to build cav?

edit:
ok, maybe companions aren't weaker than cats in head to head, cav to cav. but charging a phalanx from the side is maybe just as effective, but you take more losses with teh companion, that combined with their training ability makes them very hard to use in the campaign

Kraxis

02-20-2005, 22:12

I have modded both a bit.

I have made the def and attack of the cats a bit weaker so that they don't just steamroller everything (add to that all my other changes they are now rather good cavalry but not overpowering), to even out the charge I have upped the chargebonus slightly.
The Companions on the other hand have been boosted in both charge and attack of both weapons making them the best chargers in the game. Also slightly stronger in def (1 point). All in all they now warrent their position at the end of the techtree, but they and the cats still have their areas of expertice. The companions being perfect in cav vs cav and in exploiting weak spots while the cats can create those spots, but will now need support to not get bogged down.

They are now in my mind a perfect pair.

jerby

02-20-2005, 22:22

I have modded both a bit.
The companions being perfect in cav vs cav and in exploiting weak spots while the cats can create those spots, but will now need support to not get bogged down.

They are now in my mind a perfect pair.

what weakspots did companoins exploit? weakspots on all cav, or just cats?
how did you mod the cats and comps exactly?
and how (in battle) do you use them in battle? symbiotic? inf-flanking with cats, and counter flanking with comp?
please tell me all, im interested.

Kraxis

02-20-2005, 22:49

Weak spots as in weakened infantry, disorganized infantry (elephants or cats in front) or simply weaker infantry. Classical cavalry if you have to go head on. Also they deal with other cavs very well due to their inherently better swords and their tremendous charge. I use them like Alexander would have. ~D
The cats on the other hand are the batteringram that needs to open the path. Hardly ever send them against other cav as they are lumbering and tire out too fast. Nimble cavalry can easily lure them too far away. For the same reason they are not as good in flanking (not that they can't do that well, but it just seems to be not worth it). I use them to seek out a place that mgiht crumble if subjected to their charge. Also they are good at taking out generals (they don't flee as much as lighter cavalries and here the AP works well).

Companion changes: +2 (+1 to chargebonus) to spearattack, +2 to swordattack, +1 to defensive ability. Upped price to 900 and 380 (generally upped upkeep of cavalry).

Cataphract changes: +1 to spearchargebonus, -1 to maceattack, -1 to armour. +1 to desertcombat. Upped upkeep to 390.

Es Arkajae

02-21-2005, 02:44

The problem with Companions and Cataphracts is the silly speed model used in the game.

In MTW cataphracts were formiddable but they were also very slow and tired quickly (as cataphracts should), the Byzantines even had an alternative cavalry unit the Pronoiai Allagion (sp?) that whilst weaker were as fast as normal knights to make up for this.

In RTW Cataphracts are just as fast as Companions, have similar attack stats and craploads of extra armour so that they're much better in a melee.

With this in mind then Companions become redundant.

Cataphracts should be much slower and should tire out faster than other cavalry units, the Companions would then be the cavalry that one uses to ride around the enemies flank and the Cataphracts what one would use to just slam headfirst into an enemy line at the point of crisis. Both units would have distinct uses.

professorspatula

02-21-2005, 06:57

A further stupid point is that the upkeep for cataphracts is far, far too low. Why are they so cheap when they're the best shock cavalry in the game? I can't see one reason to ever build Companion over Cataphracts as the Seleucid unless I just stop caring about the quality of my units once the Elephants show up. The fact that before the 1.2 patch their upkeep was only 140 proves that CA have lost the plot when it comes to unit and gameplay balancing etc. I don't care if there is some kind of historical significance or reasoning to explain the low upkeep - it's a game, there needs to be some kind of sensible balancing.

The Stranger

02-21-2005, 12:18

use my mod SRTW as soon as i can place it somewhere. damn TWCENTER won't let me.

jerby

02-21-2005, 12:22

SR? does iy work along side of rtr.
what is the adress of twcenter?

The Stranger

02-21-2005, 12:30

it isn't there. i can't submit the file. its

Stabilized Rome Total War.
any suggestions where i can submit the file

jerby

02-21-2005, 12:38

Proletariat

02-21-2005, 19:14

The problem with Companions and Cataphracts is the silly speed model used in the game.

This is becoming a game ruiner for me. I can go easy on alot of things stupid AI things in the game, but seeing Numidian Cav being hunted down by Briton Chariots is getting too difficult for me to suspend logic and just enjoy.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-21-2005, 19:46

Companions are far better when used in repeated charges to the flanks and or rear, however they should never be used to hold a position or fight an extended melee, there Cataphracts beat them. Companions are not redundant, because they are better at causing armies to route through flanking. Cataphracts on the other hand are better at taking on units with better weaponry and fighting in extended melees.
Companions should have a higher upkeep, because they are noblemen. Noblemen will demand higher wages than Cataphracts who were not. Also Companions are more skilled, they do not rely on equiptment so they would demand higher wages.
The Seluecids should take advantage of being able to field both and use them in conjunction. If you are facing off against a larger better equipped army and need to flank the enemy, but are blocked by their cav have the Cataphracts charge the front of the cavalry and the Companions sneak off to flank the infantry or charge the side of the cavalry. The Cataphracts can run interference to allow the Companions to charge the infantry from behind while they are fighting your infantry. For example if the enemy general rides up to shoo you away have the Cataphracts deal with him and fight an extended melee while the Companions make repeated charges againts the infantry's rear.
I agree that Cataphracts should be slower and tire more easily....

Claudius Maniacus Sextus

02-21-2005, 20:43

Cat's Vs. Comp.'s:

CAT:+best armoured cav.
+rigurous training for battleing in so heavy armour
-It should tire quickly and walk slower
-It should have big upkeep and big recruitment cost

Comp's:+Social elite means the best armour(not the heavyest)and weapons
+Very intensive training
+disipilned
-being soo "elite" would mean high upkeep and as elite a medium recruitment cost mainly because they provide their own armor,weapons......

In Game Reality:The Cat's obliterate Comp's.A sad truth.

Claudius Maniacus Sextus

02-21-2005, 20:46

Does anybody here use the wedge? and when/why?
when having an infantry army and litle cav. u charge so u can separate the enemy so your inf. have an easier battle.

Claudius Maniacus Sextus

02-21-2005, 20:47

This is becoming a game ruiner for me. I can go easy on alot of things stupid AI things in the game, but seeing Numidian Cav being hunted down by Briton Chariots is getting too difficult for me to suspend logic and just enjoy.

thats real funny!but the speed factor in this game is ridiculos.my velites kill light lancers.

jerby

02-21-2005, 21:00

ok, I know whén to use wedges: splitting and a little bit extra damage. but the question is IF anybody uses it.

so: cats are cav-counter-cav( high def) and comps are for flanking ( charge bonus)

I still think companions should be able to kick cat-ass every day of the week, anytime anyplace, anyhow. they are noblemen and need to have a reason to be at teh top of the techt-tree.

omg, this is ruining my day, cats have 'very good' stamina, and comp just 'good'. this can't be right...

The Stranger

02-21-2005, 21:00

ga kijken bij spartan dinges die je heb gepost.

Kraxis

02-21-2005, 22:32

nope, sorry.

don';t who said it, but he talked about using comps for flanking and cats for head on charging. why would anybody charge cav straight on? cats are good, no doubt. but Never charge cav into a good formation. maybe when you have created an opening you can rush a wedge in, but thats teh only exception.

hey, nice: Does anybody here use the wedge? and when/why?
That was me... But I never said you should charge into an enemy phalanx (though that actually seems to be a rather cheap way of dealing with them in an unmodded game) or good swordsmen. Find the sweet spot in the enemy army, such as Cilician Pirates, Woad Warriors (like that is going to happen) or Naked Fanatics. High attack and weak def are perfect candidates for a cat charge head on.

I think I will remove the hardy attribute from the cat alltogether and add very to the comps. Maybe that will help...

jerby

02-21-2005, 22:54

yeah i did to.
but how should the comp/cat be modded.
should te comp be able to beat cat in head to head?
if not, how do I test the balance?
i upped the charge and att of teh comp. and downded teh cat def by one.
i redone stamina for both like you.

Kraxis

02-21-2005, 23:17

I don't know if the comps should beat cats head on... Maybe. But I at least think they should be equal. And comps better at dealing with lighter troops (their inherently better swords) and cavalry, but that is under the pretext of them being faster. They are not.
So my feeling is right now that it is very hard to get a satisfactory result without completely reversing a lot of stats. Here I talk about making cats very much weaker so that comps don't roll over everything, but are still warrented their higher position in hte techtree. But that will hurt other factions quite a lot. It is the speed that does the balance in here... Grrrrrrr.

HailMightCaeser

02-22-2005, 02:29

Kraxis

02-22-2005, 17:24

I did a custom battle with comps and cats maxed. I had them charage at each over an open field on a sunny day. The comps fought till they had about 8 men left then ran away. They killed about half the cats.
No surprise really... The cats have the nice little maces which cuts armour in half and their own heavy armour more than makes up for the lack in offensive power compared to the comps charge and swords.I don't mind this all that much really, if only the comps had been faster by a good deal. Btw, the comps have better morale (10 compared to 8).

The Stranger

02-22-2005, 18:28

mmen those maces look ugly they aren't even 3D, they look like a weapon from MTW.

they are flat, damn CA

jerby

02-22-2005, 21:40

thinking bout giving companions a charge bonus of 20. or lower their stats and up the hitpoints.
so, after all this. cats kick ass in close combat for maces and defense.. so what is left for companions is to repetedly ( bad -spelling) charge and withdraw, and with that losing lots of men. wich is the truth. comps lose way to much men in battle when i'm playing.
wich is pretty generally the case, cav always loses to infantry. if you leave them in h2h they will, die. wich is pretty irritating.

Proletariat

02-22-2005, 21:56

I know it seems a little silly having the Comps lower on the tech tree, but I'm still considering it. Even in custom battles the Comps are cheaper... Or is it just too stupid to have Companions become somewhat less prestigious?

Kraxis

02-22-2005, 22:17

It is not stupid, but then we have a building that does nothing, and I don't think it is fair to give it an experience bonus. Cats are plenty powerful as it is, they need not more power.

The Stranger

02-23-2005, 09:56

you should realy up Cats upkeep and trainingcost cause as far as i know that armour costed a fortune. and you didn't only had to feed men and horse but also keep the armour from rusting(turning in to brown metal caused due acid and rain.)

The_Emperor

02-23-2005, 12:51

Shouldn't the Cats really be good charge but poor in prolonged melee??

I think part of the problem is the way the combat engine uses armour defence, as a factor in melee combat defence.

Companions should be better when it comes to heavy cav fighting, and Cats should have to rely on their charge bonus more than melee skill.

jerby

02-23-2005, 13:55

cats have an AP- mace. so melle goes just as good for them as for comps. so maybe that needs to be changed.
any comments on wedge or cav-inf?

jerby

02-23-2005, 20:34

oh oh, look what I just read, it is an discription of 'the tip, or the point' ( dutch name was 'punt') it was the elite squadron of the cavalry commanded by alexander at chaeronae, so it is probably comps.

'they had a long spear and a beautifully decorated shield with the argaedic star. the shield held to throwing spear in place.

so companions had a shield, and two throwing spears.
I tried to give the comps two javs by editing the export units descr. but i crashign when I try attacking with them. but thsi was the thougt:

statt pri attr: the javelin, with 2 ammo each
statt sec attr: 15, 18 , spear.

this failed when the comps tried to throw their javs. how do I edit this? or is there anybody in need of a hobby to make this?

Pode

02-23-2005, 21:52

Jerby, I just pissed away a three day weekend fighting that same battle for different reasons, and I couldn't find a way to get spearmen equipped with javelins. See my thread on creating a new weapon type for details.

It has to do, I think with the types of animations the engine expects to be in the skeleton file. EDU.txt isn't enough. I tried to edit the hc_spearmen skeleton to have the missile animation tags from hc_javelin, but linked to the cas files from the attacks under hc_spearman. Still got CTD's once they came in range, I think because the engine got confused on the origin coordinates for the flying javelin model.

jerby

02-23-2005, 22:18

ok, just thought of other solution, i'm no modder so I don't know if it can be done

but take the skeleton of the militia cav. skin it to companion. make secondary weapon no sword, but a spear, up the sec.attacl. en tadaa, you ahve a spear throwing comp.

forpode, are you trying to give triarii pila;s?

jerby

02-23-2005, 22:22

assuming the skin and skeleton are seperate. but not sure botu anything.
if you can't get skin to ajust sekelton, maybe take other skeleton to skin.

example for you. triarii can't throw spear. hastati can.
copy hastati skeleton,a nd start modding, but probably, hastati can't wield spears...

btw. missile always is primary attack in export_unit_descr. hoping you just slipped up a little...