How to most effectively use some units?

[RollingWave]

Here are some units i could either never get the hang of or feel like that i'm probably not using them the best i could or that sometimes i get mixed results...

1.Scythed chariots: i really don't know how to use these guys... the best i could see is probably charging it ahead of a cav charge... but the main problem is they die fast and run amok faster, when they run amok they are REALLY scary.... for you..... i've already had 2 general killed by my own amok chariots -.-.... and obviously running them in with infantry is even less of a option as unlike elephants they are way too fast for infantry to follow. (and when they trample they also trample much more severally) .. why only they run amok and not say... Egyptian chariot archer or Brit light chariot ?? :furious3:

2.Phalanx: well usually they work very well for me and have saved the day for me several time.... my main problem is when pushing foward with them sometimes they lower their spear (which is insanely scarey inside a town) sometimes they don't. (which gets them massacered by anything stronger than a peasent...) how do you make sure they lower their spear when u want them to? i tried telling them to stop... that work sometimes but other times they stop defending all together and run around like idiots ..... telling them to attack seem to be generally more reliable but sometimes they also don't lower their spear until much later....

3.Skrimishers: sometimes they work sometimes they don't... again sometimes they just don't fire off their goddamn javlin or keep throwing it onto our own men... anyone with better javlin use technique?

Anyone willing to share their thoughts is apperciated.

[hrvojej]

1. I use them on the flanks mostly. If I can get them behind the enemy line, then the fun begins. Other than that, I've had success with them against cavalry, against egyptian chariots (they have more HP than EHC and cause helluva casulaties to their generals), and sometimes for advancing under fire. My tips: as the Seleucids, build them in towns with Hephaestus temples; don't charge them into eastern infantry or anything else that has bonus vs. cavalry.

2. You mean, how do you stop them after a run and get them to change to phalanx? Well, timing it right and doing it ahead of the moment of need. I advance them very slowly, and once they're fighting I let them go. I usually don't try to do anything fancy with them, as any wrong order can get them to lift their pikes. So, when they begin to melee, I leave them alone and use other units to take care of the problems that might arise.

3. Sometimes they work better on the flanks. But it mostly depends on what you're facing. If the opponent is charging your javelins, it's about 50/50 chance that they'll manage to pull off a volley. However, then it's also likely that they'll get caught by the charge since they have to complete the animation before auto-pulling back. But, that's what they're there for pretty much - to dull the enemy charge, and after that they are easily replacable. If they are on the flanks, they might get a better position to do more damage with their javs. Other good uses are when defending higher ground (they get longer range), and chasing routers (they are fast).

[RollingWave]

no no no, i mean when the phalanx move around with phalanx mode on, often they still have their spear up, espically when they are cluded together or moving left and right. i know how to time when to turn phalanx on and off... the problem is sometimes it goes off by itself when it's suppose to be on.

[AntiochusIII]

Do you mean they lift their spears (or pikes) up when issued orders before putting down again? Because I think it's about the thickness of the rank since thin-lined phalanxes of mine always lift their weapons up when ordered to do something (move or attack) while the deep-lined ones just move on forward with their spears as usual.

[Kaldhore]

Sometimes they raise them when manouvering. But *sometimes* there are one or 2 men that havent got into position yet or are stuck trying to. When that happens the other guys dont lower their pikes till all are in place. Easy way to fix that is to qwickly put on normal formation and then right back into phalanx, they usually lower them then.

[Quietus]

I've never used the Phalanx in huge numbers, since I've only played romans sof far. but I've always used them in the center to defend my archers (one or two are enough).

The Phalanx are fairly difficult for offense in an open field. When switching phalanx mode on/off, don't do it while paused, (don't do the run/walk toggle either while paused). The controls are not very reliable.

For medium-range skirmishers, they are specialized troops but really effective on slow units. When the AI has no cavalry, they are even better. I just drive them upfront, in the flank really quick while my army marches forward slowly.

When the AI takes the bait, I halt my whole army and let the archers do their work. If they continue to chase, I just block them with a unit then flank with a cavalry. :charge:

Against other skirmishers though, turn OFF the "skirmish mode" so they won't go crazy going back and forth. And press "hold" so they stand their ground ~:cool:

Also when they are behind your line, target the enemy farthest from you (disable fire-at-will mode).

[The Stranger]

they run amok because they are somewhat uncontrolable

[RollingWave]

Well the theory in using phalanx is as long as they can't flank you and must fight you head on you'll almost always win unless the odds are way too bad. so the main key is to make sure u have enough troops on ur flank to protect ur phalanx as they advance (and to force the enemy to face you instead of move around.) in city fight thats easier as the buildings or wall protect ur flank for you and there isn't many places to run to for the enemy.

[Kraxis]

I use the Scythed chariots for cavalry hunting, especially generals. But I don't mind sending them into a nasty melee. I never send a single unit of chariots into enemy infantry. That is a sure way to get them killed fast, you need to send in at the very least two units and have them hitting the same point, often enemy infantry will break from that. And then the road is open for the cavalry. Just never try to use them in a city... A single phalanx can kill hundreds of them (even Militia hops and Levies).
I have modded all chariots but the generals to be prone to running amok.

I think part of the scythed chariots weakness might be because they don't get the proper armourbonus? In the files they are shown to have 18 points of armour, in the game itself they have 0 and a def value of 1. I have for some time wondered what that means... The 4 HP and the large unit footprint can explain why they can take so much archery, but as soon as the unit shrinks a little they fall like flies (of course a lot of the HP must haev been depleted by then). I have got a feeling the armour is not counted as it should. Especially since other chariots seem to get their bonus.

[Zorn]

Scythed Charriots are awesome.
As mentioned, they totally own cavallery.

But they are very powerful against every infantery that isn`t a phalanx also.
Deploy 4 units of scythes before your lines. Attack the enemy unit that is furthest away, so that they have to charge through the whole enemy army. In 9 out of 10 cases half of the enemy army will rout after 10 seconds, while the rest is a complete disarray. Of course your charriots will take casualities, but thats ok. First, they heal very well and second you can retrain them nearly everywhere.
So, the deal with scythes is: Bring a couple of them (1 or 2 won`t get you anywhere) and then just charge. Just avoid phalanx and youre fine.

One small story:
When I used them the first time, I was scared of infantery too. Then there came this battle where I fought two large stacks of armenians. The first deployed to my right, sending 6 units of eastern infantery towards me. His cav archers hang back in the middle.
The other stack entered the battlefield from the left, the infantery between me and their cavarchers.
I just wanted to sacrifice my scythes to take some of the cavarchers with them. To do so, they had to go straight through the eastern inf, but as I said, I was willing to sacrifice them. If they took out some easters, just the better.
Well it turned out they routed 11 units of eastern inf just by driving through them, and then easily dispatched the cavarchers. Since them I love scythed charriots.
And now the best: I took screenshots ~D http://www.zorns-kleine-farm.de/bilder/charge.jpg
http://www.zorns-kleine-farm.de/bilder/fliegen 1.jpg
http://www.zorns-kleine-farm.de/bilder/fliegen 2.jpg

[The Stranger]

I use the Scythed chariots for cavalry hunting, especially generals. But I don't mind sending them into a nasty melee. I never send a single unit of chariots into enemy infantry. That is a sure way to get them killed fast, you need to send in at the very least two units and have them hitting the same point, often enemy infantry will break from that. And then the road is open for the cavalry. Just never try to use them in a city... A single phalanx can kill hundreds of them (even Militia hops and Levies).
I have modded all chariots but the generals to be prone to running amok.

I think part of the scythed chariots weakness might be because they don't get the proper armourbonus? In the files they are shown to have 18 points of armour, in the game itself they have 0 and a def value of 1. I have for some time wondered what that means... The 4 HP and the large unit footprint can explain why they can take so much archery, but as soon as the unit shrinks a little they fall like flies (of course a lot of the HP must haev been depleted by then). I have got a feeling the armour is not counted as it should. Especially since other chariots seem to get their bonus.

the hitpoints shown on the unit scroll of chariots are the horses hitpoints, so the men have 1 or 2 hitpoints (dunno) and the horses 4

[The_Emperor]

Eastern Infantry... Those guys make me laugh every time I play.

Once I even beat them with a unit of PEASANTS!! ~D

[Kraxis]

Eastern Infantry... Those guys make me laugh every time I play.

Once I even beat them with a unit of PEASANTS!! ~D
Not that hard really. Just place your Peasants in the town square and await the tired EI. They will be routed by the Peasants.

Emperor Umeu 1, I was talking about the armour. If the armour isn't applied correctly it won't impact the game. So if the armour is only for the man or the horses and it isn't shown ingame, then it seems as if it isn't applied.

[The Stranger]

oh oke, but the armour was also for the horses i thought cause the men have a armour value of 18 and defence value of 1

[Oaty]

Best way to control phalanxes is not to control them. Basically tell them to march straight forward until they hit the enemy. If you target a unit with them they sometimes seem to turn too much causing their pikes to be lifted too often. Of course remember to halt them if the enemy get's too intermingled with them. And when you have a whole line of phalanxes march them together and when 1 unit hits an enemy halt them all, this way your phalanx line only has 2 flanks exposed.

[Watchman]

I tend to treat a line of phalanxes as something like a wall of spear-point. If I'm attacking I tend to simply march them reasonable close to the enemy in normal formation, lower the pikes, and snail-pace the remaining distance. Seems to work well enough, at least when I keep a few infantry units behind the line to plug the gaps, pursuit, and take care of any flanks created when a phalanx routs its foe and I turn it to the side to help its neighbor mince up the unit it is fighting against.

And cavalry on the flanks. Always have cavalry hanging around the ends of the pike line. Actually, even if you think you won't be needing mobility, take cavalry along *anyway*. If nothing else they chase routers a lot better.

In cities I tend to advance the phalanxes by simply keeping the pikes lowered and click-and-dragging them to a suitable spot. Normally works well enough on straight streets, but corners can be problematic. Still, even if the front ranks find themselves fighting the foes with their weeny lil' daggers that's not such a big deal once their mates in the back ranks lower their pikes, or the next phalanx marches in with lowered pikes. Several phalanxes piled atop one another seems to be very very nasty.

As for the scythed chariots, I mostly use them for bandit-hunting or as low-maintenance and easily-retrained stand-ins for proper heavy cavalry, naturally with every sodding armour and weapon improvement I can get (rule of thumb: if you have access to a smith-type temple line, have at least a few training centers furnished with those). I tend to treat them as cheap and cheerful terror units that go in just before the main force impacts to mess up the other guys' formation. They keep cavalry off the flanks of your pikemen just fine, too.

As a side note, I've always been a bit puzzled by the chariot stats in the game. They have separate statistics for the chariot and the crew (e.g. SC drivers are basically Cataphracts with the appropriately macho armour rating of 18, but the defense stats of their chariots total about 1 which is also the number you see in the in-game info scrolls). I've always assumed the chariot is the one which gets hurt in melee, while the crew is the one who gets hit by missiles (SCs seems to be fairly arrow-proof). The chariots' main defense in melee seems to be the way they project a sort of "kill field" around themselves, at least as long as they move, inside which everything gets bonked by the attack ratings of the chariot itself and usually knocked down. Beats me how any melee attacks the crew may have get factored in, or just how exactly the game computes if an when a chariot sustains a hit. It always seems pretty random to me.

And I never could figure out if the way the Pontic Chariot crews had a melee defense skill (others don't) actually affected anything. ~:confused:

[Nelson]

Watchman, I think we went to the same ludus. I employ pikes in the very same way. Line 'em up and march 'em forward while delaying the pike drop until the last moment. A few peltasts immediately behind them are nice too.


As for the scythed chariots, I mostly use them for bandit-hunting or as low-maintenance and easily-retrained stand-ins for proper heavy cavalry, naturally with every sodding armour and weapon improvement I can get (rule of thumb: if you have access to a smith-type temple line, have at least a few training centers furnished with those). I tend to treat them as cheap and cheerful terror units that go in just before the main force impacts to mess up the other guys' formation. They keep cavalry off the flanks of your pikemen just fine, too.

I use chariots like this too. They even enjoy the advantage of having only a small impact upon population growth.

[Kraxis]

The SC are definately bad as lone gunmen. I had a single unit of rebel Estern Infantry outside Hatra. THe only unit capable of reaching them was a unit of SC. So off they went.
The battle was a horrible disaster.
I marched them up fairly close, rested a time then charged in. At first it seemed to go good, but then the chariots took losses and suddenly the EI killed the general. RATS! Lost 19 out of 28 and killed only 33.