Damn routers on walls!!!

[Kraxis]

I thought the patch had corrected the 'fighting to the death' issue on walls, well I thought that until my Seleucid army faced a determined Pontic army led by three family members (they last city).

A long story short I suffered heavy losses among my infantry, not so bad since they were Eastern Mercs, Barb Mercs and Cilicians. Just not too happy that they had all been highly experienced troops. I had even sent my general to his death leading a charge through the gates (had taken it). Two of my four Sarmatians followed him and suffered heavy losses too (again my most experienced troops).
So as I stood there looking at the battle I accepted that it was lost and withdrew my army, which was composed of scyth archers, chariots and other types of cavalry and beaten infantry. I wasn't about to sacrifice them for nothing.

Sadly I had four barb mercs standing on a deserted wall 'fighting to the death', despite a perfectly good siege tower next to them and both a defence tower and the gates to either side. I couldn't do anything with them and the Ponic army wasn't going anywhere near the captured buildings.
I thought what the heck and exited the battle after the army had withdrawn, thinking I could now only lose those four men in the lost battle I would get from exiting.
But no! I suffered extreme losses to my Sarmatians and scyths... A force I had carefully husbanded and trained for decades. I was suffering losses among troops that was nowhere near the battle when I left it. Did I feel unjustly treated? YES!

I could do nothing but what I had done, and in light of the 'fix' it felt doubly bad.

[Quietus]

My personal experience on fighting-to-the-death on top of the walls is a bit merrier than yours. I simply pick apart the enemy on the battlements with archers (I just make sure the archers out of range from the towers that are still active).

Of course I have units behind the routing one, but the battle is sort of a deadlocked. I must say you got a bit impatient, since you charged too early :charge: (But then again, I can't fault you since large city battles are usually timed for 23 minutes).

For the losses, I don't like getting my veteran troops killed either, especially my best generals. Too bad you can't rally those units.

[Kraxis]

I certainly didn't rush the battle. I have battletimer off, and I used 5 siege towers.

But as it happens my tech isn't high enough to have archers on a fairly large scale yet, so this army was without them. And to further weaken such cases was the fact that I have upgraded javelins and weakened archery (all basic archers and horse archers have a ranged attack of 5). And I didn't dare move my scyths in to shoot at the walls because of fear from the towers and the gate.

I had intended to send one unit of Cilicians to capture another gate where I had a force of cavalry waiting (the other Sarmatians and some scyths), but as one unit of Barb mercs had been utterly devastated on the approach (they were the ones that were left on the map 'fighting to the death') they quickly got into trouble facing only peltasts and merc peltasts. So I had to send the Cilicians to help them out, which they did easily. But by then the gate was taken. It was then I sent in my general and two sarmatians to clear the area behind the gate, but two of the enemy generals desided to flank them as they entered the gate. General died and Sarmatians routed, leaving half their numbers behind (damn weaklings).
I tried to reverse the situation by sending in all infantry but by then the pontics had put their sole unit of phalanx pikemen to face the gate. As I was occupied with the Cilicians now trying to advance alongthe streets to the other gate I didn't see it until it was too late.
The Phalanx pikemen wiped the floor with my levy pikemen as they entered the gate. They did even have a chance to lower their own pikes despite my furious attempts to do so. So now the gate was 'closed'.
As it happened my Cilicians got run down by some cavalry and he other gate never got opened. And during the scuffle at the gate I had sent my remaining walltroops to help out. So in effect I had nothing inside and my infantry was reduced to some 50 levies, 60 barb mercs and 120 peltasts. I could not take the city with that. I had to leave.

The walls themselves were not so bad really (besides the loss of one unit obviously), and that was part of the problem as the AI had no troops to clear up my determined warriors.

[Quietus]

I'd have to have a good amount of numerical superiority before I assault a stone walled city. Sounds like there's too many enemy units there. In wooden walls it is much easier.

Anyway, I didn't realized when you put a skirmisher to push the Siege Tower and you have them on fire-at-will, their projectiles will be shot automatically long range! ~:eek:

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/3844/siegesiege10is.th.jpg (http://img66.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img66&image=siegesiege10is.jpg)

Here's my archers in action.

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7353/siegesiege20qk.th.jpg (http://img66.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img66&image=siegesiege20qk.jpg)

:charge: The first picture, after i cleared off the defenders, I had skirmishers on the top and I was going to bait the enemy to go to the sapping breach while I just create a box outside. Then the whole thing just crashed-to-desktop :dizzy2:

[The_Emperor]

Anyway, I didn't realized when you put a skirmisher to push the Siege Tower and you have them on fire-at-will, their projectiles will be shot automatically long range!

Actually when you put ANY unti into a siege tower you can then set them to "Fire At Will"... This causes the Tower to shoot Ballista bolts out of the top. ~;)

Skirmishers?? I bet you must have thought they were some kick ass javelin throwers!! ~D

[Kraxis]

My plan actually worked pretty much as I expected. I lost most of a unit trying to reach the walls. I soundly defeated the walldefenders. But it went wrong when I left the walls and my infantry got overpowered in small pockets.
The plan had been to open up two gates and run the enemy down with the general and the Sarmatians. But since the Cilicians got butchered and the phalanx pikemen blocked the first gate I was stuck.

At least I lured out two family member who got killed by boiling oil and my reforming Levy Pikemen.

But I still think it is damned unfair that I lost men in units that had not even been in battle and whom I had withdrawn.
Is it just me or wasn't the patch intended to fix the 'fighting to the death' issue?

[Quietus]

Actually when you put ANY unti into a siege tower you can then set them to "Fire At Will"... This causes the Tower to shoot Ballista bolts out of the top. ~;)

Skirmishers?? I bet you must have thought they were some kick ass javelin throwers!! ~DHe he he ~;) . I thought their pila was being loaded up top (I was startled nonetheless).

"We're being attacked!!" (Huh!? Whaa, I'm not shooting ~:confused: )

No wonder I thought I was missing one unit. I was looking for the depleted-ammo unit to melee.

[Oaty]

This is where a request draw option would be great.

Hit the draw button on an assault and a timer starts and if there was no combat after 3 minutes its a draw. This way you can maintain the siege or leave the besieged city if the losses were that bad.

[NightStar]

Actually it becomes a draw if you just let the battletimer run out. I never withdraw from sieges, I just wait retreat my units out of range and wait till the timer runs out, that way I dont lose men from withdrawal.

[Kraxis]

Actually it becomes a draw if you just let the battletimer run out. I never withdraw from sieges, I just wait retreat my units out of range and wait till the timer runs out, that way I dont lose men from withdrawal.
Since I have removed the timer that was not an option. I hate it when I only get 21 minutes to take a city, which in this case would have made the assault even more impossible.

I actually suffered a reverse of this battle just yesterday.
I was besieging the same city again, this time I intended to starve them out. I brought only a new family member, 3 units of Sarmatians and four scyth mercs.

At some point the Pontic forces understood I was not going to assault, so they sallied. I utterly trounced them, killing every single defender (it was actually hard getting the last two pontic light cavs). So I expected the battle to end with a victory, there wasn't a single defender available to keep the city. So I waited... and I waited... until after about 5 minutes of searching the city I understood I would never get a victory, yet there wasn't a single enemy left. I had to exit the battle.
How I feared doing that again... Losing even more men to that was scaring me. As it happened the battle ended as a draw (A DRAW????) and I lost no further men, but I didn't get any healed troops either, and some of my sarmatians and scyths had actually lost quite a few men, men I had expected to be healed as they had been lost to the towers.
The city was captured when I got out to the map. Odd situation...

[Quietus]

Kraxis,

So there's no countdown when there's no battletimer? Also I had a situation when a single enemy soldier gets stuck in one of the narrow alleys, and the battle wouldn't end since they can't rout. It took me a while to find the bug.

My skirmishers couldn't reach them either since the unit was deep in a narrow alley. I eventually, I managed to snuck some cavalry there to kill the enemy, and I won. BTW, this happened with a battletimer (I've already won but I just wanted to clean up the place; my battletimer was already counting in negative minutes, hehe).

[Kraxis]

I wasn't on the inside of hte walls. I couldn't get in there. I had only cavalry remember? So essentially I made a search of the city from the outside, but since the enemy units all managed to come out and face me there were no units left, and no men stuck anywhere, that much was clear in the battlestatistics. With no battletimer there is no way you can win a sally as the besieger.