View Full Version : Are Pikes too long
Byzantine Prince
03-01-2005, 21:11
Is the length of the pikes in the game historically accurate? ~:handball:
Dunno but I have a question. How effective are long pikes vs. short pikes? Seems like long pike units have lower stats but more men and obviously hte long pikes whereas other hoplite units have shorter pikes but better stats and fewer men. Which is better?
And anyone done any testing to see which are the best pikemen/hoplite units after spartans? I think the sacred band are the 2nd best.
sacred band are pretty much teh same as armoured.
long pikes pretty much always beat short, it is why they where created by Macedonm, to counter the greek short pikes.
in game, as long as the long-pikemen don't lift them for the enemy, the short pikes dont stand a chance since they cant reach it. try it. take 3 silver shield pikemen vs 1 spartan. spartans are individual better, but short on range.
the size for phalangites ( long pikemen) is arrucarte. it was wielded with two hands and the small shield was strapped one to one arm, the sarrissa ( pike) could be 5 meters long.
dunno about hoplites tough, I heard they were even shorter than in the game.
caesar44
03-01-2005, 22:16
Is the length of the pikes in the game historically accurate? ~:handball:
the macedonians had it for 6 meters that is 20 feet
BeeSting
03-01-2005, 23:27
I wish sarrisas could be wielded with two hands in this game.
Colovion
03-01-2005, 23:38
I wish sarrisas could be wielded with two hands in this game.
They will in the EB mod ~D
Watchman
03-01-2005, 23:49
Between five and six meters seems to have been something of an international standard for pike lenghts. Macedonians, medieval Europeans, the Japanese, all ended up averaging about five and half meters. Longer ones past that "critical mass" apparently proved to be excessively heavy and unwieldy and, so I've been told, started sagging too much under their own weight and lenght.
And you know, it does look kinda silly when the little RTW soldiers wave theirs with one hand...
BeeSting
03-01-2005, 23:59
They will in the EB mod ~D
Cool!
How were you able to achieve this? I heard it was impossible.
And, are they going to have their shields slung to the left shoulder?
Also, what’s an EB mod?
~:cheers:
I found some images of hoplites that show their spear length in relation to their bodies
Hoplite 6th and 5th century BCE respectivly.
http://img192.exs.cx/img192/4884/greek20hoplite20206th20cent5ph.jpghttp://img192.exs.cx/img192/8411/greek20hoplite205th20cent20bc0.jpg
Just from eyeballing it they look like they have shorter spears than the hoplites in RTW.
Also for shits and giggles 5th century peltasts greek and thracian
http://img192.exs.cx/img192/8989/greek20peltast20slinger205th20.jpghttp://img192.exs.cx/img192/2792/thracian20peltast205th20cent20.jpg
The Stranger
03-02-2005, 09:37
take a levy and a phalanx pikemen and compare their shields, levy's have bigger shields.
take a levy and a phalanx pikemen and compare their shields, levy's have bigger shields.
Don't you think about the Militia Hoplites and the Phalanx Pikemen? For I get the impression that the Levy Pikemen have actually smaller shields than the Phalanx Pikemen.
lars, the hoplites in RTW have indeed too long spears, but if you want to change it, just give them the short_pike, right now they have the spear. That should really cut back on th length, making only two ranks possible at fighting the enemy at once.
I get the feeling you would have like to see a thracian peltast with a foxskin cap and boots, and a real pelte. Well you are not alone.
The Stranger
03-02-2005, 15:17
oh that could also be, but one of those two have a different size of shields and it definitly wasn't militia hoplites.
Don't you think about the Militia Hoplites and the Phalanx Pikemen? For I get the impression that the Levy Pikemen have actually smaller shields than the Phalanx Pikemen.
lars, the hoplites in RTW have indeed too long spears, but if you want to change it, just give them the short_pike, right now they have the spear. That should really cut back on th length, making only two ranks possible at fighting the enemy at once.
I get the feeling you would have like to see a thracian peltast with a foxskin cap and boots, and a real pelte. Well you are not alone.
You think wrong, I'm perfectly willing to accept genericus unitus from a total war game. Also all those pictures I posted were from the wrong era. 1 is from the 6th century BCE, the other 3 from the 5th century BCE. Now as rigidly traditionalist as the southern greeks were you can't sit there and try to tell me that the spear of a 6th or 5th century BCE hoplite is exactly the same as a hellenistic era hoplite. I won't accept it, I can't accept that.
A bit OT, and don't laugh, but what's the etymology of Peltast? I always assumed it shared a root with whatever word gave the English 'pelt' as in 'throw violently', but now you show these pictures of peltasts wearing 'pelts' as in animal skins. Or did Peltasts get their name from the animal pelts they wore, which then gave the English the word 'pelt' as in to throw - or vice versa?
Or, indeed, neither?
conon394
03-02-2005, 19:02
Lars 573
Well I am not quite sure I follow you, are advocating the spears being the same length or changing?
In any case your hoplite pictures have spears that are too short for either 500 B.C. or 300 B.C.
A hoplite spear should be about one and half times (or perhaps a bit more) the hoplites height, thus the typical 8-9 ft estimate.
The length pictured would be more appropriate for the Persians.
Red Harvest
03-02-2005, 20:33
Somewhere around 8-9 ft is going to be the practical limit for single handed spear use. And I would imagine it would need some decent counterbalancing. It is hard for me to imagine an Iphicratid 12 ft spear used completely as a single handed weapon.
In the game we see lots of single handed use for the hoplite phalanx "spear" (as it is denoted in the unit file) and the "long_pike" (sarissa) with only about 0.5 meters of pike projecting to the rear. The shorter "short_pike" is probably about the length of the original hoplite spears. Even with a heavy butt spike, this seems a bit of a reach. Polybius description of how a sarissa was held indicated that a full meter of pike would be behind the rear positioned handhold. My understanding is that the graphical engine really can't handle the varying positions of the pikemen with rank. I'm looking at an illustration of pikemen ranks being offset diagonally so that each man is facing his pike directly forward. I can't tell if this is correct--as it opens a noticeable lane right up to the front ranks shield. (If it is correct, then it suggests that the smaller phalangite shield might actually improve their defensive capabilities by allowing better coverage of the front with pikes. The formation of the file could also be more linear, with the angle of the pikes being splayed outward some. This would cover the full shield area of adjacent neighbors.
I'm not claiming any special knowledge, just trying to work through this to understand it. When I have worked with light pruning gear at 12 to 14 feet of extension I have found it somewhat unwieldy. With a sharpened buttspike and shield...and a formation to contend with this would present some problems.
Byzantine Prince
03-02-2005, 20:51
That's ridiculous. The ancient spears were nowhere near "short_pike". This is what it actually looked like. It short enough for putting on their shoulders.
http://img192.exs.cx/img192/8411/greek20hoplite205th20cent20bc0.jpg
It was used for overhand phalanx. If it was longer it wouldn't work. The game is flawed when it comes to that. There was still older style troops, especially in the lower ranks.
Colovion
03-02-2005, 21:01
Cool!
How were you able to achieve this? I heard it was impossible.
And, are they going to have their shields slung to the left shoulder?
Also, what’s an EB mod?
~:cheers:
The Europa Barbarorum Mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)
new animations, new skins :bow:
conon394
03-02-2005, 21:03
Fridge
Peltasts are named for the shield they carried the Pelta
(For Example Diodorus (15.44.3) notes peltastai are named after their pelte).
I not sure if the pelta derives it's name from being hide covered or not, but as far as I know it may just be coincidence that the words sound similar.
The Stranger
03-02-2005, 21:08
what's the official EB site
Colovion
03-02-2005, 21:08
you're posting in it
it's an Org forum community mod
that forum I linked to is the place where the public can see how things are going
The Stranger
03-02-2005, 21:17
oh oke, so wjy is t called EB
Hoplites are used "wrong" in the game and even if the spears are the right length, its hard to see.
In the charge they used it underhand and probably held further back then the "balance-point". When the charge was done they shifted to overhand - after the charge they where quite near - and used it to stab head and neck, (usually I guess) and then they would hold it by the "balance-point".
So, the hoplites are handled wrong in the game so if they held the spears right - it might - be more realistic (length wise)
PS: Don't shot me if I'm wrong in some areas.
CA had created an overhand model, and that was visible in TC Adrianople (the spear Auxilia). But they had a number of problems, for instance the spearpoints would point backwards or into the ground when at rest, and the points would end up far into a horse when stabbing with it. So they desided to leave that alone and go for a underhanded model for all.
conon394
03-02-2005, 22:02
Byzantine_Prince
If you are correct, you are only allowing a 5.5 ft or so spear.
Herodotus makes clear that Greek spears are significantly longer than the Persian ones. If Greek spears are only about 5.5 ft long, that would seem to suggest a Persian spear of only 3.5 or 4.5ft (much longer and I don't see much on an advantage). This hardly seems to justify the word spear. Herodotus describes Persian spears as short, not as in effect javelins.
Colovion
03-02-2005, 22:15
oh oke, so wjy is t called EB
um...
because it's called the Europa Barbarorum Mod.
abbreviation ~;)
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