Army Lists

[Myrddraal]

Andreas: Edited Domani army-lists (18-03-2005)
Basic units

Peasants
Levy Pikemen
Pikemen
Armoured Pikemen
Peasant Archer
Archer
Crossbowmen
House Guards
House Armsmen (These are swordsmen, just with a different name to make them more interesting)
Royal Armsmen
Local Militia
Town Militia
County Militia

Mounted Militia
Light Horse
Mounted Armsmen (swords shield)
Mounted Nobles
Noble Retainers
Mounted Crossbows


Tarabon

King’s Life Guard (Mounted and Dismounted)
Panarch’s Legion (Pikemen)
Taraboner Lancers
Taraboner Infantry (Spearmen)

Andor

Queens Guards (Mounted and Dismounted)
White Lions(Mounted & Dismounted) Note only in Rand era
Two Rivers Longbows
Miner Militia (From the mines in the mountains of mist)
Billmen
Men of Caemlyn(Swordsmen Medium Armor)
Two River Peasants (pretty badass peasants armed with Spears)

Tear

Defenders of the Stone (Mounted and Dismounted)
Tairen Heavy Horse
Godan Cavalry
Maredo Cavalry
Tairen Horse Archers
Tairen Lancers

Amadicia

Guardians of the Gate(Mounted & Dismounted)
Children of the Light(Mounted & Dismounted)
Children of the Light Archers
Children of the Light Crossbowmen
Amadician Pikemen (Heavy Duty)
Zealots
Amadician Crossbowmen

Cairhien

Cairhien Vanguard(Mounted & Dismounted)
Guardians of the Dragonwall(Mounted & Dismounted)
Cairhienen Nobles
Billmen
Free Companies (Two handed swords)
Cairhienen Infantry (Pikemen)

Murandy

Royal Guards (Mounted and Dismounted)
Murandian Bandits (Archers)
Merchant Guards (Mounted and Dismounted)
Lugard Brigands (Spearmen)

Shienar

Shienaran Royal Lancers
Shienaran Mounted Bows
Borderland Militia
Fal Daran Cavalry
Two-Handed Sordsmen
Borderguards(Mounted & Dismounted)

Arafel

Arafellin Knights (Mounted and Dismounted)
Mounted Swordsmen
Arafellin Swordsmen (Two Swords)
Arafellin House Armsmen
Borderland Militia
Arafellin Light Horse
Borderguards(Mounted & Dismounted)

Kandor

Royal Lancers (Mounted and Dismounted)
Kandori Lancers
Kandori Heavy Infantry
Kandori Armsmen
Kandori Archers
Borderland Militia
Chariots?
Borderguards(Mounted & Dismounted)

Saldea

Saldean Royal Lancers
Saldean Light Cavalry
Saldean Light Swords
Saldean Light Javelins
Saldean Footarchers
House Bashere Swordsmen
Borderland Militia
Borderguards(Mounted & Dismounted)

Ghealdan

Defenders of the Wall (On foot)
Royal Guards(Mounted & Dismounted)
Billmen
Jehanna City Guard

Illian

Companions (Mounted and Dismounted)
Sailors
Councils Bodyguard (Maces)

Mayene

Winged Guards (Mounted and Dismounted)
Marines

Altara

Palace Guard (Mounted and Dismounted)
Altaran Light Horse
Bandits

Arad Doman

Royal Guards(Mounted & Dismounted)
Domani Heavy Swordsmen
Merchant Guards (Mounted and Dismounted)
Order of the Council (battle axe, mounted and foot)

The Shadow - Shayol Ghul

Myrddraal
Dha'vol Band
Dhai'mon Band
Ko'bal Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dha'vol Fist
Dhai'mon Fist
Ko'bal Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Dha'vol Clan

Myrddraal
Dha'vol Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dha'vol Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Dha'vol

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Ko'bal Clan

Myrddraal
Ko'bal Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Ko'bal Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Ko'bal

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Dhai'mon Clan

Myrddraal
Dhai'mon Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dhai'mon Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Dhai'mon

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

Tar Valon

Aes Sedai
Tower Guards
Younglings(Mounted & Dismounted)
Tar Valon Heavy Cavalry
Tar Valon Halbierers
Tar Valon Swordsmen
Men of Tar Valon(Milita)

Seachan (Rand Era only)

Death Watch Guards(Mounted & Dismounted)
Death Watch Ogier Guards
Damane
Cavalry
Seachan Beast Riders
Seachan Cavalry
Infantry
Seachan Falxmen
Seachan Spearmen
Seachan Swordsmen
Seachan Archers

Aiel

Clan Chiefs Guard
Red Shields(Light Infantry)
Thunder Walkers(Heavy Infantry)
Far Dareis Mai(Light Aiel - like scouts)
Stone Dogs(Medium Infantry)
Water Seekers(Light Skirmishers)
True Bloods(Archers)
Brothers of the Eagle(Heavy Skirmishers)
Night Spears(Maybe like Night Raiders with a frighten enemy option?)
Black Eyes(Heavy Archers)
(No idea what to do with the two left...Maybe an elite aiel unit?)
Dawn Runners
Knife Hands

People of the Dragon (These include the Aiel and Tairens in the Rand era)

Asha'man (Mounted & Dismounted)
Wise Ones-(Rand era, never fought before dumai wells)
Legion of the Dragon (Heavy Crossbowmen with good swords fighting skills also)
Band of the Red Hand

[The Stranger]

is this for STW, MTW or RTW

[Andreas]

R:TW

Those list aren't entirely true... I will update them when I have time.

Edit: done

[Khan48]

Are mounted militia heavier than light horse? For Saldea and Shinear first stage cavalry should be better because in the borderlands their even their peasants are skilled riders.

[Andreas]

The common units are only for the innerlands, and mounted militia isn't better then either Borderguars or light cav.

[Black_Draen]

Andreas: Only so know I'm going to try remake the borderguard cavalry so they are better armoured - a bit like Borderguard Infantry but at horses. Hope you don't mind.

Also, I'll update the Shadow's army-list.

[Andreas]

It's ok, I didn't pay them a lot of mind when I did them... And you promised to send me the whole bunke ~;)

[Black_Draen]

Yes I will :-P

Only problem is that my descr_battle_models have been deleted and I need to remake it - I'll try to fix it soon and then send the bunke to you.

[AssasinsShadow]

I know you have alot on you plate right now, with all these things to do, but I noticed you only had 2 specialty units for Arad Doman, and I would like to suggest another. If I remember correctly, Arad Doman is ruled by a King and Merchant's Guild, and there are several references to their Merchant Guards. I do not know if there is any info on what the guards actually are, but if you want to give Arad Doman some more depth it would be a great addition. I will see if I can find anything on them :book:

[Myrddraal]

I thought we had included merchant guard for arad doman, did someone edit them out?

[Andreas]

Nope, I never edited them in... Thye never were at yout line up at the page, I included them in my tech tree, toether with some more units... I might have forgot to add them. I do it now. Watch above;) That tech tree is built upon the large influnece by the merchants, by the way, if you haven't seen it.

[soibean]

Don't know if you wanna include it but in the city of Far Madding they have Street Guards with the following description "One of the steel-capped Street Guards, in a leather coat sewn with overlapping square metal plates and a Golden Hand on the left shoulder..." it goes on to talk about a guy swatting at pidgeons, but these guys weild long cudgels, catch poles, and rattles?
Maybe they could be a low level unique infantry that is more powerful than say your town militia, for whatever faction you give this city to... Im not sure who runs those lands so...

[Myrddraal]

Thats a good idea, nobody runs those lands, so they should be recruitable by whoever captures that city...

[Andreas]

Maybe we should make a list with that kind of units too?

I got an idea for the borderguards the other day, and the militia I guess... Why don't we make those units region tied instead of faction? What they do is defending their lands, and it would be cool if borderlanders in the innerlands recruited militia from the innerlands, and if innerlanders taking the borderlands recruited borderguards, since both units basically represent people defending their property more then thier country?

[Gurkhal]

That sounds realistic and sound.

[Myrddraal]

Yes, and of course you must remember our regional units plan:

The standard units, such as pikemen and armsmen, will vary slightly from area to area.

For a start, they will vary in appearance. In Cairhien, pikemen will have Cairhienen uniform and armour. If another faction takes a Cairhienen province, any units recruited there will still have Cairhienen armour, they will just wear the colours and emblems of the other faction.

There will also be varying stats, for example Tairen pikemen will be weaker than most, as Tairens tend to neglect foot soldiers.

[Andreas]

Yep I remeber that, but have much of these units can we do? We have like 60 hidden resources to use... But I guess that it will just take 16 different areas... But we will have to do a lot of textures... But i like it, it gives the right feeling in my eyes. I have discussed this with you before, IIRC.

[Gurkhal]

Just one quick question: The Shadow, will they be able to reqruite these troops if they capture those areas?

[Andreas]

No, they will no. They will be forced to rely on trollocs as the backbone of their army. With all other units, thay would be very powerful.

[Gurkhal]

Good, I was almost a little afraid of that.

When I conquer the world I surly don't need any other humans than Darkfriends at most and Dreadlords.

Trollocks is the way to go!!!

[pezhetairoi]

How will the Aes Sedai fight? What checks and counterbalances will be in place to prevent them from getting too powerful? And what kind of weaves can we expect to see on the battlefield?

[Myrddraal]

Currently we are working on lightning, making the earth erupt, and fireballs (maybe also units bursting into flame)

As for how to stop them getting to powerful. A unit of Aes Sedai take oh about 12 years to build :smile:

[Andreas]

Also, we have a plan of making channeling a resource, so that thay can only be built in: TV, Chandelar, Shadows Starting Capital Region and in one region in Andor IIRC.

[Ldvs]

Just a quick thought about Aes Sedai. How do you intend to incorporate the "Warders effect". I mean, without their warders to protect them they would sometimes be killed as easily as mere peasants, by an arrow for example. It will certainly not be easy to take that into account, but on the other and it would be somewhat unrealistic if Aes Sedai had either a high defence skill or shield points.

[Gurkhal]

I don't think that Aes Seidais should have Warders. That would leave them with to few weaknesses.

If they are easy to kill with arrows and such, they won't be taken in super huge numbers since it would be a real waste of money and time to get to many of them killed by a few volleys of arrows, combined with the fact that they take to long to train. So no super armies with only Aes Sedais, hopefully at least will march through the world.

This will also encourage people to keep them safe and not throw them away, and make them a high priority to take out for the enemy. Pretty much like the books, and hopefully both gameplay-wise balanced.

The same formula I would like to use on Seachan's Power user (sorry for my poor spelling :embarassed: ) and also Asha'man and Wise Ones.

Except that Asha'mans could perhaps be better at fighting and have more hit points. But don't be as good with their "magical" attack as the others.

I understand that this could make them a little "waste of time and money" unites. But I think at least I would get some if I played with those factions, and have a nice big army that the Aes Sedais could support, not an army that would escort the Aes Sedais around.

Just my thoughts about it.

[Andreas]

Long training time, resisted areas and a heavy fee wil probably prevent any massive armies.

And waders might be used as generals.

[Myrddraal]

Or perhaps warders could be a seperate eliete unit for Tar Valon. We will see...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I was reading through your lists and looking at the The Band of the Red Hand, I was wondering, shouldn't their be lots of Band units.

Band Heavy Cavelry

Band Light Cavelry

Band Pikemen

Band Billmen

Band Band Archers/Crossbows.

Mat created a flexible and balanced force with high morale and high dicipline. Surely the game should reflect this.

I know it overbalances things a bit but you could double the training time and make the support costs high, because they're all so well payed, so that you could only ever afford one Band stack.

Just a thought.

[Andreas]

Uhm the band of the red hand isn't elite units, they are normal troops with a good general. You will ahve to rely on the common troops... We might be able to give them band uniforms(? to the rest of the team). And to PotD has enough units as it is;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn't say they were elite, per se. I said they were highly trained and diciplined, which they were. Matt broke down the idea of loyalty to a noble and created cohesive units. Hell, before he came along they didn't even have numbers. I take your point though. So here's a better question:

What exactly are the Band?

[Andreas]

The Band will come in two parts, cavalry and foot. The foot will be pikes, with higher discipline, training and maybe better attack then others. Tha cavalry will be like mounted nobles, buit mroe disciplined I assume.

And highly trained and diciplined... that i what I call elite...

And IMO, what mat did was that he united armies of different nations, and used their qualties in a way they fitted... But that is just me... Remember that they still say that they "belong" to different nobles. Mat is waht unite them.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually Matt did a lot to brake down barrieres between units. Remember he mixed Andoran, Tairan and Carhairan together in one unit so that they would all work together. They might still have identified with their unit leaders but what Matt tried to do was break down petty loyalties. The difference between a feudal host and a proffesional army.

Thanks for answering my question though. Band Foot and Band Mounted is fine by me.

[Steppe Merc]

But how could you just put one unit as foot? Because he always used pikemen and archers and crossbowmen together, if I rember correctly. Of course, I suppose normal crossbow/archers would work well enough....
Not that I have any say in the matter, just trying to be helpful. ~;)
And I got the impression that most of the Boderlanders who used bows also were very good lancers as well as swordsmen. They seemed less like Mongol horse archers and more like Byzantine, more static sort of horse archery.\
And for some of the Aiel, I'd suggest a combo spear/bow sort of thing.

[Andreas]

All of thay is what we have, all aiel are armed with spears, Shienaran bows are good swordsmen. Normal archers will have to do for the band, we cannot have too many units for the PotD... We already have a lot of them. And maybe all common infantry might have Band uniforms....

[Steppe Merc]

In RTW, is it possible to do hiding units like in MTW and in STW? Perhaps one or two of the Aiel could be good at hiding and ambushing... Mabye all can hide in tall grass (I believe that's a skill of some sort), while one or two can always disapear?

About the Aes Sedai, perhaps you could make them like generals? One Aes Sedai in a unit, with one or two Warders as bodyguards? Not sure if it's possible, however for that sort of unit to be recruitable and always have a "general" unit...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The probelm with the Aeil is that in order to be accurate to the books they have to own everything.

Which sucks if your not Rand Al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, Lord of the Morning, The Prince of Dawn...etc, etc.

[Gurkhal]

Probably a little difference from the books for game balance will be needed.

But the Aiel arn't invincible. They got little or no armour with small shield. Thus both cavallery charged and missile fire would be quite good against them. And both longbows and crossbows outrange the Aiel's shorter bows.

[Steppe Merc]

Eh, no the bows wouldn't be outranged just because they're shorter. They seem like composite bows, which were superior to longbows and crossbows (if you make em properly).
Horn and sinew compress better than wood, and that is almost certaintly what they made them off (since their desert would be as devoid of wood as the steppe warrior's who perfected the composite bow.)

But I think that the Borderlanders would be able to beat them, evauntaully. You have your horse archers incircle them, firing. They would take casualties, but then you charge with your heavy horse. Once the Aiel move foward to take those heavy horse, you take them from behind with fresh heavy horse.
I believe that is what the essential tactic was in New Spring, at the begging with Lan.

If you were Mat, and you could try and have pikes incircle your bows and crossbows, and have them duke it out, but they would take heavy casaulties from trading arrow fire, and the Aiel might not be stupid enough to charge, or be held while flanked. (Also I think a tactic used against the Shaido, if memory serves).

[SMZ]

As far as what to do with your two remaining Aiel units - the Dawn Runners could have a special ability whereby they gain a speed burst for a short time (Sprint) - thereby making them slightly faster than normal cavalry units - although fast cavalry should still outrace them - if they were essentially skirmishers with a hefty bonus vs cavalry this could make them a tactical unit...

the Knife Hands should have an animation with no weapon ideally other than maybe one pila - afterwhich they should have the special attack ability like chariots - so that they knock enemies down and disrupt formations but limit the lethality so that they don't cause many casualities

---

commenting on a few other things I saw in this thread - the person who posted that Aes Sedai should have a high shield bonus but no armor or defense skill - that seemed like a good solution. So if they were prepared they would be difficult to injure but if the attack came from an unexpected direction or they were overwhelmed then they would fall quickly...

Aes Sedai should have Warders. 1. It's absurd to think that many sisters would go to a battle without one. 2. It's essential to limit the number of Aes Sedai in a unit. I'm pretty sure the game has a hardcoded mininum of 6 persons per unit. Six Aes Sedai together could destroy entire armies. The best number is certainly to have only two or three. If you give each sister one or two warders and make the sister the handler then this keeps the numbers more balanced. Since Greens are the "Battle Ajah" and regularly take more than one Warder I think this sets a good precedent to give each sister two warders and thus you would only have two sisters from a unit. And while they'll still able to make a huge impact on a battle, they are capable of being dealt with by crafty strategy. This also will help to keep a player from assigning three or four groups of weavers to one army. With only two persons being controlled in each unit a player who did this would lose four potential army slots for eight soldiers. An opposing player who filled those slots with calvary units would have an extra couple hundred men. Enough to overrun said weavers and slaughter them thereby redering the first players huge investment useless. So players would only keep one or two weaving units in an army and use them in a supporting role instead of as the bulk of a force.

---

As regards the Aiel superiority this should be kept. As in EB I don't think you should nerf a faction to make things "more balanced". There is more to fighting wars than just having the best individual fighters. Economics plays a large role and the Aiel Wasteland is neccesarily not exactly a luxerious place. Additionally their proximity to the Dark One's forces means they will have to bear the brunt of an attack while more southern nations can prepare. Finally the Aiel are split into many clans and it is only when they are united in at least thought that they can act. A Aiel clan who went to war by themselves could find that rival clans attempt to strike while they are weakened. Thus in Lamen's War while only 4 clans went to war the others supported the decision and so the War could be put into action.

[Steppe Merc]

Good point about the Aiel. I also agree, they shouldn't be balanced. Though I think that the Aiel did control a lot of the trade going on, which would be a lot of money making oppurtonities.

[Myrddraal]

SMZ, special abilities are hardcoded.

[SMZ]

oh... *wipes egg off face*

[Narayanese]

Found this passage while rereading Lord of Chaos
page 37, about the younglings "He had grouped them in clusters of five swordsmen afoot, with bowmen fifty paces back up the hill. Fifty more waited with lance and horse on the crest /---/ In spite of the heat they wore their green cloaks so that Gawyn's white charging boar showed, embroidered on the breast"
Three different units of younglings perhaps? one lancer cav, one foot swordsman and one foot archer.

[Steppe Merc]

I got the impression that most of the swordsmen were just cavalry that had lost their horses. But then again, I could be wrong since they were training as Warders.

[4th Dimension]

Those are all Younglings, but he needed some afot and some as archers so they took those positions, they are all swordsmen.

[4th Dimension]

I'm wondering would you be able to ajust this mod to that expansion for RTW because it is sopoused to bring some nice options, like ability for barbaraians to pack up their setlements and change location which wlold fit Aiel nicely.
At least it is waht was promised.

[Myrddraal]

Yes we will. The demo will probably be released before then (or at least I hope so) But the final version will be for BI :smile:

[4th Dimension]

ahh good. I was afraid of bugg of answer

[Steppe Merc]

Ah, damn, I might have to get BI then... :embarassed:

[Renly]

I think it will be worth it.

[aleh]

Only 3 units for Illian? Hehe, as an Illianer die-hard, I gotta help with that.

Alright, so I assume it's widely accepted that Illian is basically Greece and the like. After all the Illianer Companions are exactly, if I remember right, like Alexander's Companions. So right there, their moral/discipline/elite/armor, after all they've turned the battle many times in Randland, should be off the scale. Now, they also have armies a bit of heavy horses. So right there.

Also, if I remember correctly, Alexander had an elite unit of foot soldiers called the Hypaspits, who also were elite, very disciplined, and very good. So, might give Illian an unit like that.

Also, might make an Agrianian-type unit who're light, crack javelliners. Alexander made heavy use of them.

Also, the Macedonian infantry was very versatile if I remember well.

Also, since the Council often fought for power with the King, in a totally peaceful way, it'd be unthinkable for them not to have several units that match the power, skill and prestige of those that are for the king.

[aleh]

As an addendum to my last message. Personally, I think the Council's Bodyguards should be expert swordsmen/axemen or something like that, after all, the Council is always competing with the King, eh?

The Illian's Assemblage's forces should be a bit like the Genoese sailors, good archers, and half-decent/decent fighters(perhaps a spear, or something). Cause the Assemblage is made up of the richest merchants and most succesfful sea-traders, so like I'd assume archers would be a definite bonus against the river brigands.

If I remember correctly, Ghealdan had good mines and all, and eventually since they'd discover powders and all. Perhaps to make the units more fair in all the nations, give them some sort of Naphta Throwers-type unit?

Oh, and definately give the Taraboners Naphta Throwers and perhaps some sort of canon-type unit, since they have the best(and perhaps biggest) Illuminators chapters.

Also, if I remember well, the Murandians were involved in quite a few border raids/battles/wars with Andor, so perhaps give them a Raiders unit. Light Cavalry, good/great attack, great/irrisistable charge, but they can't do well in a protracted fight as they are more hit-and-run fighters. Also perhaps give them a foot version of that, since Lugard is a heavy trading center, I'd assume there'd be plenty of bandits around. Lightly armoured-if even that-, but great attack, good charge, SUCK in protracted fights.

Why does Kandor have chariots? If I remember correctly, the only people who should have chariots are the Seanchan, because Tuon's personal banner has a chariot(war-cart) pulled by lions. If even that. Also, give Kandor some sort of Merchant Guard-type unit. They are elite(borderlandsers), but come in very small numbers.

The men of Arad Doman have quite short tempers (poor fellas :D), so perhaps give some of their better unit the 'Impetuous' trait? And what exactly is 'Order of the Council', what council, that of the Merchants? Personally, the Domani reminded me of Hindu people and so on, so perhaps give them scythed chariots.



Also, will the game be on RTW or MTW?

[Andreas]

It is for rome, and as for your points:
Illian will have more then three units, the army lists aren't up to date. I might change some in them later. No throwers, the illuminators are the only ones that can handle it, and they do not fight with it.

There will be no chariots(you realize that you say that only senachan should have them, and then you say AD should?) Anyway, there will be no chariots.

And order os the coucil is the merchants council, yes.

[JR-]

Yes we will. The demo will probably be released before then (or at least I hope so) But the final version will be for BI :smile:

fantastic. :charge:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Looks cool guys! ~:)

[al'Callaendor]

There will are Forsaken?

[Myrddraal]

There will in Rand-Era, but not in the Early Era.

[al'Callaendor]

ok~:)

[Barid]

This confused the hell out of me. Like the pirate and the wheel... yarrr! its drivin me nuts! btw, whats the difference ingame between a band and a fist? What will trolloc units be like? Will they be like War Dogs and have trollocs as the bulk rampager with myrddraal hanging back? and why the intermixing? Just some basic questions.



Andreas: Edited Domani army-lists (18-03-2005)

[/font][/color]The Shadow - Shayol Ghul

Myrddraal
Dha'vol Band
Dhai'mon Band
Ko'bal Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dha'vol Fist
Dhai'mon Fist
Ko'bal Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Dha'vol Clan

Myrddraal
Dha'vol Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dha'vol Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Dha'vol

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Ko'bal Clan

Myrddraal
Ko'bal Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Ko'bal Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Ko'bal

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

The Shadow - Dhai'mon Clan

Myrddraal
Dhai'mon Band
Ahf'frait Band
Kno'mon Band
Dhai'mon Fist
Ahf'frait Fist
Kno'mon Fist
Armoured Dhai'mon

Creatures of the Blight
Darkhounds
Darkfriend Militia
Darkfriend Archers
Darkfriend Riders
Darksworn Champions
Dreadlords

Aiel

Clan Chiefs Guard
Red Shields(Light Infantry)
Thunder Walkers(Heavy Infantry)
Far Dareis Mai(Light Aiel - like scouts)
Stone Dogs(Medium Infantry)
Water Seekers(Light Skirmishers)
True Bloods(Archers)
Brothers of the Eagle(Heavy Skirmishers)
Night Spears(Maybe like Night Raiders with a frighten enemy option?)
Black Eyes(Heavy Archers)
(No idea what to do with the two left...Maybe an elite aiel unit?)
Dawn Runners
Knife Hands

People of the Dragon (These include the Aiel and Tairens in the Rand era)

Asha'man (Mounted & Dismounted)
Wise Ones-(Rand era, never fought before dumai wells)
Legion of the Dragon (Heavy Crossbowmen with good swords fighting skills also)
Band of the Red Hand

If I may be so bold: Your using the Roman "Houses" dynamic here, so why not give the Fantastic 4 the factions? Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal, and Demandred? Actually, though Rahvin was an adiquate general, he's not top forsaken... Ishy is. Why not make ishies faction number 1? If I may be bolder:

Ishimael Faction a higher number of Channeling Darkfriend options to denote a greater station among the Chosen.
Demandred Faction the bulk of the mounted Darkfriend options, give Sammael a special assassin Character (Though, I'm pretty sure that was labled "not possible")
Be'lal Faction "twisted" units. I'm thinking simply adding some black to Tear, Illian and Mayener elite units (asside from tear, with nothing but arbitrary reasons)
Sammael: Better close combat units, but fewer of them. Maybe an elite unit. Arbitrary idea that.

On Cavalry: Robert Jordan's cavalry all sound like they are cut from the same mold real cavalry were: Lance first, Sword once it breaks... the logic is simple, swords have a hard time reaching men affoot, and without great aim or a lucky hit, nearly worthless against a dehorsed armored foe, thus the lance gave a thrusting ability to penetrate the armor, as well as impact value on the charge.

Band of the Red Hand: I know, I know... thou shalt not trust in the Guide to WOT... but damnit, it says Mat wants more archers... 4-1 or 3-1!

[Andreas]

The band has it's own topic, and the player will decide how many archers he have... The roman houses are cut away now, we will not use that line-up, only one sahdow faction, mainly trollocs.

And most of his cavalry are mounted archers, really.

[SMZ]

One addendum to that - It seems like a LOT of the cavalry shown so far has been very well armed with a variety of weapons. Typically mounted soldiers on about 2/3 of the continent seem to carry a horsebow, a lance and a sword. Depending on the situation they drop the lance or leave the bow cased.

Exceptions to this appear to be the easten nations. Illian, Tear, Cairhein, Andor and Mayene appear to come more from the school of thought about the glory of the charge. Murandy, Altara, Gheldean, Amadicia appear to be in between... some of them are strictly lancers... some lancers/horsebows. Tarabon, Domani, Borderlanders and Seanchan are almost all equipped with both lance and bow. That's my general feel at least...

[cdaulepp]

I understand why Mat wants more archers, especially crossbowmen. I was playing Saturday and I set up my army across a bridge and I gave the enemy 3 times my number of units. I set up a defensive posture with 5 units of spearmen in the front of my army to protect my archers. All of the other units in my army were archers. It's amazing what happens when you have 15 units of 80 archers each firing at a unit as it tries to cross a bridge. After one volley from all 15 units, the unit crossing the bridge routed. The only units of the enemy able to cross the bridge before routing were horsemen (because of their speed) but they ran into my spears. If they tried to go around my spears, they were routing too by the time they took the second volley from all 15 units of archers.

I did see one problem though. I had 15 units with 80 archers each, so that's 1200 arrows flying for each volley loosed by my archers. The enemy units usually had around 80 men to start with, but my 1200 arrows only killed 40-50 men. It was enough to make them route, but it left me thinking that in real life, 1200 arrows fired at 80 men should have killed all of them. That's 15 arrows per enemy soldier. I should be able to kill more than 40-50 men per volley when I'm shooting 1200 arrows. So I think archers should have their attack increased and their accuracy increased.

If not all archer attacks increased, then at least the band of the red hand's archers to represent their faster firinig capability. Maybe leave normal archer units as is, but increase the Band's to do a lot more damage or something.

Just a thought.

[SMZ]

I agree with that whole-heartedly. The numbers associated with missile troups needs to change substantially. In WoT, we often see missile units slaughtering enemies to the man when they are positioned properly. In RTW, that doesn't happen.

We'll need to do some serious overhaul on this if we can. We get some good info from Mat's ambushes on exactly how effective the crossbowmen and horse archers are at varying ranges.

Ideally, IMO, archers will be much more deadly than they are currently, but conversely be much worse at hand to hand combat. Even elite type units should have trouble switching from their missile weapon to thier melee weapon; that way archers will be countered the way they are in WoT. Namely, closing with them as quickly as possible. Nobody even contemplates standing still and waiting for them to exhaust their arrows in WoT... in RTW however, that's a viable strategy... that has to change.

[cdaulepp]

I'm glad we agree SMZ.

I'd like to perhaps stop a debate before it begins. Before people start saying that archers would become too tough, remember that archers are only good in clear open areas with a clear sight of view of their enemy. Rain, snow, dust, etc. should be major factors in stopping archers, as well as hills, forests, etc.

So making archers more powerful doesn't ruin game balance.

[Steppe Merc]

Even elite type units should have trouble switching from their missile weapon to thier melee weapon; that way archers will be countered the way they are in WoT. Namely, closing with them as quickly as possible. Nobody even contemplates standing still and waiting for them to exhaust their arrows in WoT... in RTW however, that's a viable strategy... that has to change.
I disagree. I mean, the horse archers would certaintly do very well in melee, similar as how the steppe peoples were (which the Saladeans seem to be based after). But if you mean foot archers, than that makes sense.

[SMZ]

yeah - I was speaking of foot archers predominantly

but even the horse archers should be weaker in melee than strait lancers - it should be enough of a difference that if the lancers do manage to close, they will have the advantage

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, I'd agree. But they would not be pushovers, but bow/lancers often had lighter equipment, though not always (like the Kataphraktoi)...

[4th Dimension]

Well archers should definitly have bigger acuraty and stronger attack.
I don't want to see 50 Two rivers archers firing at 80 advancing lightly armored soliders and only handful of them dying pe voley. TR archer are known for their ability to punch trought armor on on distance.
Generaly archers in RTW are too too waek.

[cdaulepp]

Perrin also says a trained two rivers bowman can shoot 12 arrows a minute. I imagine people with smaller bows could shoot faster.

[Steppe Merc]

Perrin also says a trained two rivers bowman can shoot 12 arrows a minute. I imagine people with smaller bows could shoot faster.
I know that the guy who became the Prophet (Masema?) was making fun of Rand for having such a big bow (a club) because it would take to long to fire and you couldn't fire it from horse back. The long bow would also have longer range, though the Aiel bow should come close, then the horse bow (it being a composite recurve...)

[SMZ]

One thing to consider is that although two rivers men can shoot up to 12 arrows in a minute, that does not portray their true combat effectiveness. For instance, if I told you to run as fast as you could, you'd prolly take off at 40 meter dash speed; but if I told you to go for an hour jog... you'd start off at a much more reasonable speed.

So while a longbowman could put 12 arrows in the air inside of a minute, in most combat situations he isn't going to do so; because he doesn't want to get tired ten minutes into the battle. My suggestion would be somewhere around 7 arrows per minute; otherwise a flight every 8 seconds.

The shortbows of various designs would probably increase their rate to 9 arrows per minute; otherwise a flight every 6 seconds.

Horsebows should use the same calculations as far as RoF as the longbow, because obviously the jostling induced by not being on ones own two feet reduces effectiveness somewhat. So a flight every 8 seconds.

Crossbows are markedly slower; optimal speed is around 6 bolts a minute. While firing a crossbow is not nearly as ardous as using a bow, it still takes energy; and the early forms of cocking mechanisms take a good bit of effort to use. So while the dropoff in prolonged firing rates will not be as sharp as in traditional bows, it's still there. I would suggest somewhere around 4.5 bolts per minute; otherwise a flight every 13 seconds.

The Trollocs don't have many archers, so I wouldn't expect them to be trained very well. I would suggest the higher number, with a flight every 8 seconds.

Obviously, these are averages, depending on whether the unit being trained is low-cost or high-cost; these numbers may be tweaked further...

Other considerations are range and power:

1. Effective range on a longbow is 500 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 1000 feet.
2. Effective range on an Aiel recurve bow is 350 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 700 feet.(In actuality composite bows could out-range longbows, but apparently their construction is slightly different or not as perfected among Jordan's Aiel as it was among Earth's steppe nomads; several remarks are made that the Aiel bows are powerful but not quite as good as longbows)
3. Effective range on a shortbow/horsebow is 250 feet. Deadly range is 50 feet. Long range is 500 feet.
4. Effective range on a crossbow is 350 feet. Deadly range is 150 feet. Long range is 550 feet. (The more direct line of fire from a crossbow means that the maximum range is reduced, while the deadly range is increased. A crossbow could fire a bolt much further if the bowman aimed at the sky so as to produce an arcing shot; but such an effort would waste most of the energy of the weapon and be largely ineffective. Crossbow bolts do not have nearly as much mass as arrows, and thus would not gain much impact force from such a shot.)
5. Effective range on a Trolloc bow is 300 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 600 feet.

And I know I left something out... please nobody mention it, some persons still haven't read KoD yet...

[Andreas]

from where did you get the numbers?

(And where are you these days... haven't seen you online for ages;))

[SMZ]

numbers are from my own experience with archery and sources I've found in libraries and online (I've always had an interest in ancient arms and armors)

one note: by "effective range" I mean the range at which a weapon can be aimed reliably by the average soldier. A longbow for instance can fire an arrow somewhere around 350 meters (1,500 feet about) at maximum range, but it would take an extraordinary archer to fire with anything approaching accuracy at that range... how this figures into game mechanics I'm unsure... I don't know how much we can play with the numbers?

-------

and I haven't had much time lately Andreas - sorry - I should have more soon - I'll be in touch :)

[Andreas]

We can do alot with it... I'll look at it when I have time:)

And it's ok:)

[Ashton]

Wilst you are talking about archers, firstly do the Trolloc's have archers?

If so could i suggest they be equally as deadly as T.R arrows but have a far reduced range. My reasoning behind this is simply that the steel for the arrow heads would have been cast at Shayol Ghul similarly to any other blade in the Trolloc's arsonell making the arrows extremly deadly.

[SMZ]

The trollocs have a few archers... not many - but those are deadly. The reason being - Trollocs are a good deal larger than humans - and thus their arrows are more like small spears... so essentially it's like getting hit with a ballista bolt

[Myrddraal]

Trolloc archers will be rare though, simply because its not a Trollocs prefered weapon...

[Andreas]

Trolloc arrows are no where nere as powerful as you say, remeber that we have seen like what? 2,3 triangular scars in FACES, and IIRC Unos eye were atken out from an arrow. So they exist, but can't be that powerful for that many to have surrvived facial hits. And trolloc weapons are not cursed in the same way as Myrddraals, Lan sais that they might have traces of it, but not as much.

And IIRC, trollocs have small composite bows.

[SMZ]

I coulda swore there was a passage somewhere that described the Trolloc arrows as being like small spears... iunno why several people have survived - but getting hit with a small spear in the face is going to hurt...

and wordums at the lack of a cursing - the myrddraal blades receive a special process to curse them - and it causes the blades to decay after a time... It's been noted recently even that with the lack of captives not even all Myrddraal have been able to get equipped with their special blades

[Myrddraal]

There is a passage about trolloc arrows, when Perrin gets hit by one in the woods in the Two Rivers.

The think that I remember about them is that they are viciously barbed. I'll see if I can look it up.

[Andreas]

It is because the trolloc blades are forged at the tribe holds or what they call them, not at Shayol Ghul that they aren't tainted... and yes, the perrin passage. He survives a close shot, so it isn't that powerful. I TR bow would have crushed the bone.

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps the bow is inferior(well it probably would be compared to an Aiel or a longbow, but compared to all)? It is hard work making a good bow and I wouldn't bet the Trollocs would be able to make a good one.

[SMZ]

"The Shadow Rising"

A ram-horned Trolloc leaped into the open twenty paces away, raising a long curved bow. Perrin drew fletchings to ear and fired in one smooth motion, reaching for another shaft as soon as his arrow cleared bow. His broadhead point took the Trolloc between its eyes; it bellowed once as it fell.

And its arrow, the size of a small spear, took Perrin in the side like a hammerblow.

Gasping with shock, he hunched over, dropping bow and fresh arrow alike. Pain spread out in sheets from the black-fletched shaft; it quivered when he drew breath, and every quiver shot out new pain.

Two more Trollocs leaped over their dead companion, wolf snout and goat horns, black-mailed shapes half again as tall as Perrin and twice as broad. Baying, they rushed at him, curved swords upraised.

Forcing himself upright, he gritted his teeth and snapped the thumb-thick arrow off short,...

"Barbed," Ihvon said in a conversational tone. "Trollocs do not use bows very often, but when they do the arrows are barbed."

We see later that the arror is "just below" Perrin's last rib, so that's why it didn't break the bone; it didn't hit the bone. Perrin describes it like getting hit with a hammer. We've seen Perrins resistence to pain before; not much fazes him. But this made him double over in involuntary pain, and drop his weapons. Only the memory of his wife being in danger inabled him to return to the battle, and he says the pain was constantly pulsing thru him.

He describes the arrow as being "thumb-thick" and the "size of a small spear" and says the Trolloc had a "long curved bow".

Iunno... but an arrow that seems like a "hammerblow" seems powerful enough to me. I would agree that the Trollocs probably aren't the best craftsmen, but all of their equipment is effective, from their scyth-swords to their barbed tridents, hooked spears and spiked axes. I don't suppose their few bows would be any different.

EDIT: and I edited my recommendations for the numbers about archery...

[Andreas]

Still, three shienarans has taken those arrows in their faces... it's inferior to the TR bow at least....

[trojan_upsetter]

triangular scars in FACES, and IIRC Unos eye were atken out from an arrow. .
maybe aiel dun it???

[Antagonist]

That was my impression to, although I'm by no means certain. I was flicking through The Great Hunt briefly and couldn't find anything, but I could have sworn that Masema, at least, gained his triangular scar fighting in eastern Shienar against Aiel raids over the Dragonwall rather than against Shadowspawn.

Personally, my impression is that Trolloc archers are rare but existent, and that Trolloc bows aren't superpowerful semi-ballistas or anything, but they would be like any other Trolloc weapon: Large, heavy, powerful and painful but also brutish, lacking any kind of sophistication or finesse either in it's construction or the way it is used.

Antagonist

[Ashton]

Yes, I think you right if you consider the amoun of force needed to draw a long bow fully and the amount of energy a man is capable of building up,

Compare it with the energy a trolloc who can wrestle with ogier could used to draw a bow and i think thats where the power for the hammer like blow came from.

I havent read the eye of the world in along time but I had though the wound Tam takes was from a trolloc blade not a Myrddraals but it required healing.

Would check this up but I dont have the first 3 books with me at the moment

[SMZ]

naw - it's likely Tam was wounded in killing the Myrddraal... why else would it not have tracked down and killed Rand while he was carrying his "dad" toward town?

The myrddraal got stopped somehow... Tam's a blademaster - it would seem likely he did it.

---

on my list I put the Trolloc bow as inferior to the Aiel bow and the longbow - because I assume as said - that humans are better craftsmen - I put it as better than the average shortbow however - just because it's a much larger weapon... but while the range of the weapon is probably reduced from poor fletching, slightly crooked arrow shafts, inferior bow staves, etc... the killing power of it is still probably good - so in game terms - their attack should be pretty high... it would afterall be equivelant to a shower of javilins...

[Andreas]

Tam took the wound from a trolloc, who had a blade that had something of the curse, but not the full thing, Lan's word at the inn. He also said, that íf a Myrddraal had done it, Tam would'nt made it to town. Remember the aiel in Andor, rescuing the wonder girls from three myrddraal. They took smaller wounds, but not even Nyn could heel them. And Narg says that he will wait for the others to come back with the Myrddraal...

And the aiel have normal arrowheads, trollocs have the triangular versions.

but the list is pretty good now, I guess;)

[SMZ]

It's good thing we have you on the team :)

I should remember to argue with you less - lol

[Andreas]

It's a good thing to have you too~:grouphug:

~:rolleyes:

[Myrddraal]

I think thats the best way to describe them.

Short ranged, innacurate in the extreme, but powerfull.
In that sense they can't really be compared to being "better" or "worse" than the average shortbow, they're just different.

Remember that thats whats great about total war (especially MTW) The units didn't really have an order of "goodness" they are all different and have different abilities. A huge part of being a good tactician is when to use which units...

Group HUG!!! ~:grouphug:
Yes Team, we are the best :bow:

[no1jeebes]

As an archer with a golf course pretty much in my back yard lol I can shoot an arrow from a recurve bow about 200 yards around every 5-6 seconds with decent accuracy...Now if I lived in the WOT im pretty sure i'd be practicing a lot more then I am now considering im a freshman in college and not at home to much...So i'd assume that a trained archer with a group of a hundred people starting 300 yards away would prob be able to pick off around 7-8 of them b4 they got to to him and thats him alone....so yea definitly make the archers more powerful and accurate and all

[DragonR.]

Yes, but can you fire an arrow every 5 seconds for three hours without stoping with enough strength to pierce armor?

[4th Dimension]

And also not everyone aims the diferent target. But yes, accuracy and power of the shot definitly should be increased expecialy for Two Rivers Men.

[GreyHuntr]

Historically, armor piercing arrows didn't go all the way through the armor. Usually they punched a small hole in it, forcing some of the metal inward so that it badly scraped the person inside, making it difficult to breath. Now imagine being bumped up and down on the back of a horse with a chees-grader strapped to your chest. Ouch

[MindTr!ck]

The Faction with Perrin should have wolves. It would be cool if Perrin's "bodyguards" were "elite" wolves. The wolves would have to not have human trainers, just Perrin. Just an idea...

[Arafelian1]

I think that the Knife Hands should be a type of Assasin,
And the Dawn Runners could just be faster than everyone else???

[Trifle]

Not sure if it has been brought up, didnt check all posts but wouldnt aes sedai three oaths wouldnt stop them from weaving stuff unless in melee combat? not to mention the ashaman slaughtering armies without blinking an eye.

aiel shold be like forester warbands. bow, spear, hide everywhere, maybe etw style moving while hidden, perhaps unlim stamina? and trollocs too with unlim stamina with no discipline so they attack as soon as they can the enemy. would it be possible to add a berserker like guy (myrdraal) to the trolloc band so if myrdraal dies trollocs die? or atleast weaken a lot.

What about athan'amiere something? Like them being a faction or having some 1337 mercenary ships that join the dragon after some certain event?

Gholam?

out of ideas for now =)

[Ludens]

Hello Trifle, welcome to the .Org ~:wave: .

I fear, though, that the Wheel of Time project has long been abandoned. You can find alternative mods in the RTW mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?76-Forge) and hosted mod sections (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?157-Hosted-mods-for-RTW).

[Trifle]

Oh should have checked the date. a shame it got abandoned :/

Thanks for the welcome =)

[darkraven49]

regarding the aiel o think they should be mostly skirmish units weak to bow/crossbow fire when in the open.
they could have the ability to hide almost anywhere and so the basic aiel tactics would be a harass/ambush type strategy.

they would have strong spear units no swordsmen(duh) and normal archery units no cavalry though.

they would also be weak to heavy cavalry if they were charged but as i said, skirmish units with great stealth.

[Ludens]

I am sorry to disappoint you, darkraven, but this project is dead. No new threads have been started since 2007. There appears to have been an alpha release (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?88318-Finally-a-word-WoT-mod-release), though I don't know if the download links still work.