Books on the Crusades and medieval France

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, I know there are quite a few listed in the pinned books thread but I'm not sure any of the books are what I am looking for.

I'm searching rather casually for a good book or two; I got a bit curious and feel like stretching out a bit in my reading. I've got vague knowledge of both the Crusades and of medieval France, but I'd like to learn a bit more.

On the crusades: I want something readable, detailed, accurate and fair to both sides. I want a general history right from the beginning of the Crusades to the end, a nice overview of the political situations both in the Holy Land and in the European homelands where appropriate. I want to know about the many various people involved, both military and more peaceable. A book with loads of handy maps. A book which covers everything from military aspects, armour, warrior training etc, to local economy, daily life, etc. Something about the assorted Crusader orders is obviously a must.

On medieval France: Er .... think of much the same but as applicable to medieval France. I'm thinking 1000 - 1500AD.

A tall order, but I've found no shortage of books covering all these things in one volume about Medieval England and Britain, so I think it reasonable to assume other, quite similar subjects have received this kind of treatment. If you have encountered any of the ‘Oxford (New) History of England’ books, or 'The Struggle for Mastery: The Penguin History of Britain 1066-1284', or 'The Feudal Kingdom of England 1041-1216' or similar books then you know exactly what I am looking for.

I'm not a linguistic frog; any books have to be in English. That probably rules out the best histories of France for a start.

Thanks

[Spartakus]

Guess I can help out with the crusading books, having read a few myself.

For a general overview focusing on politics and crusading ideology, check out the books of Jonathan Riley-Smith. He's one of the latest crusade historians, and has already published numerous books. I won't list all of them here, but I can mention the ones I've read; namely The First Crusaders 1095-1131 and The Crusades: A Short History (which isn't short at all). Riley-Smith's quite the scholar, which can be both good and bad depending on what you're looking for. There's an abundance of information in his books, but the writing can tend towards dryness at times, typically academic, the kind of book you'd read taking history classes at an university.

If you want the military aspects, try John France, especially his
Victory in the East: A Military History of the First Crusade. If you rather fancy a great and epic tale, the crusades trilogy of Steven Runciman is among the best ones out there.

I would also recommend The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf. As the title implies, it's quite biased, but the writing's great.

[Hurin_Rules]

I think you want to avoid Riley-Smith's First Crusaders if you're looking for a general overview-- it really focuses just on the FC and the reasons why people went. But otherwise, yes, his history of the crusades is one of the basic texts.

Runciman also gives more of the Byzantine perspective, so read him for that.

The Oxford illustrated history of the crusades is also quite good-- a collection of articles by leading historians on many different aspects of the Crusade.

[frogbeastegg]

There's an 'Oxford Illustrated...' for the Crusades? Mmm, sounds like a good buy; books in that series usually are. Looking it up Riley-Smith was involved, so that takes care of two recommendations in one go. Neat!

'The Crusades Through Arab Eyes' is a name I have heard frequently; I'll pick that one up sometime soonish I think.

Runciman did a trilogy covering the entire Crusading era, if Amazon is right. He sounds good for the politics, names, battles etc. I also remember hearing about him while at university ... supposed to be good.

So, unless any other burning wonder books are put forth I'll accumulate that little set.

Thanks.

That just leaves France.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Here's an entertaining history novel, Deus lo Volt by Evan S. Connell. It covers the first Crusade, the title is the rally cry for the Crusaders "God Wills It". http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158243140X/ref=sib_rdr_dp/104-1060033-9868734?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

[Hurin_Rules]

Hey Froggy,

Regarding France, you might want to check out France in the Central Middle Ages, 900 - 1200, edited by Marcus Bull (Short Oxford history of France series), 2002.

[Aurelian]

Hello Froggy (and all),

There's a good general history of the Crusades called "The Dream and the Tomb", by Robert Payne. It was written in 1984 and would seem to be what you're looking for... a good general history covering the crusades from start to finish, and well written. On the book jacket, they excerpt the NYT review that said: "No man alive can write more beautiful prose than Robert Payne." I have it, and its been a while, but it was a good read.

I can vouch for the previously mentioned "Victory in the East". That's the best military history of the First Crusade around.

"The Crusades through Arab Eyes" was also good. Actually, the "Dream and the Tomb" is relatively sympathetic to the crusaders, "...through Arab Eyes" is not. Balance.

I also like a book called "Crusading Warfare 1097-1193", by R.C. Smail. Very good book on the tactical and operational aspects of Latin and Islamic warfare during the crusades. Not a narrative history, but of interest to the kind of people who play MTW.

As for France... I have a few good ones on general medieval European history, but no good general histories of medieval France.

Here's an interesting website on Medieval French military matters: Oriflamme Web Page (http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/oriflam.htm).

[Hurin_Rules]

Smail's crusading warfare is the basic text for crusading military history. It's a classic.

Note that it only covers the period up to about 1193; a later work by another author (Christopher Marshall, Warfare in the Latin East, 1192-1291) covers the later period. It's pretty good as well.

John France's book on the First Crusade is great. (I met him once at a conference-- interesting guy.) I highly recommend it.

[frogbeastegg]

Thanks for the extra recommendations. I'm going to start with:
The Crusades (Wordsworth Military Library): Robert Payne
The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades: Jonathan Riley-Smith (Editor)
France in the Later Middle Ages 1200-1500 (Short Oxford History of France): David Potter (Editor)
France in the Central Middle Ages: 900-1200 (Short Oxford History of France): Marcus Bull (Editor)

I shall slowly read the more specialised and hard to get hold of books as well; I shall appreciate them more after a little general reading. Runciman's trilogy proved a little too costly for me to get now; it was a choice between that and the two French books, and the French books pipped it. I've added all the titles and authors recommended here to my nice 'books to read' list, quite close to the top. They will be the next lot of history books I pick up.

I'm still open to more recommendations if people have any; a frog can never have too many books, and I recently sold about 150 not very good ones, almost entirely fiction I have grown out of or didn't like much in the first place.

[frogbeastegg]

Here's a happy discovery now my books have arrived: 'The Crusades (Wordsworth Military Library)' has turned out to be 'The Dream and the Tomb' printed under a different title, and at less than half the price. And there was me thinking it was a different book by the same author! I am so glad I didn't order a copy of Tomb as well, or I'd be reading in stereo.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Trial by Fire and trial by battle by Jon sumption are great books on medieval france during the first two phases of the HYW

[Big_John]

or I'd be reading in stereo.you mean you're not reading in stereo? you only have one eye? :pirate: :cry:

i just posted this book in the book thread, it doesn't really meet your criteria very well, but it's a good read.
here's a short review: http://dannyreviews.com/h/The_Medieval_Machine.html

[ShadesWolf]

OK Froggie, where shall I begin :dizzy2:

The Flower of Chivalry - Bertrand Du Guesclin amazon link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/184383006X/qid=1111524921/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_8_2/026-0497609-5518046)

The Valois - Kings of France Amazon link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852854200/qid=1111525108/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_0_2/026-0497609-5518046)

Are you interested in Burgundy or Osprey books on 100 years war. I noticed a title called the 400 hundred years war, so many I could give you, but as for specific all covering books, that a hard one. I agree I also have loads on Medieval England, but not many on France, mainly specific periods that cover both England and France.

As for the crusades, do you also include the reconquista as part of them ?

[frogbeastegg]

Thought it was more than time I took a moment to reply to this thread again. The guide's been keeping me more than busy recently.

I've got Sumptions' two books, and I'm waiting for the third and final volume. I've not heard a single thing about book 3.

My left eye is a lot weaker than my right :winkg: The book does look quite interesting, and it's covering an era I've really only got passing, outline type knowledge of. I'm adding it to my 'to read' list, thanks.

The duo of books linked to on Amazon are a little beyond my affordability, but I'll keep looking for cheaper versions of them. Some of the new versions being sold via Amazon are more reasonably priced. They do both look appealing, so I'll certainly keep them jotted down on my list.

Osprey ... I have the English related ones, like the three 'English medieval knight' books. For the French I only have a few of the more generalised ones, such as 'armies of agincourt'.

The reconquista is a subject I barely know anything of, aside from that it was the Christian reconquest of Spain. Medieval Spain itself is a complete mystery to me ... no, Spain full stop is a mystery to me. It could make for a good area to read a little about in the future.

Frogs are so easily tempted by books ~:mecry:

[ShadesWolf]

Froggy I could give you a list of books as long as my arm on the hundred years war, they are all in english so you only get our side of the sorry.

I would strongly recomend two boths by Alfred H.Burne, they are probably the bes tI have on the subject.

The Crecy War (1337-1360) Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1840222107/qid=1111692880/sr=1-13/ref=sr_1_2_13/026-0497609-5518046)
The Agincourt War (1369-1453) Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1840222115/qid=1111692755/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_26_3/026-0497609-5518046)

Both books are priced at £4.99 each and have in excess of 300 pages, well worth it in my book.

[frogbeastegg]

Thanks, I'll keep them on my list until I can scrape up some cash for my next shipment of books.

:sigh: My pet peeve with history books has always been the cost. I hate sitting there thinking "Well, I can get this one book on Normans which sounds good in its very limited blurb but I know next to nothing about, or I can get this trilogy which also sound good, has a far more useful blurb, and I know a little more about thanks to reviews and literary forums ..."

[sheelba]

Runciman/Riley-Smith are good over-views. The Crusades by Meyer is much better. I tend to prefer the German rather than British. (Although I am english.)

The Monks of War by D. Seward for the formation of the Crusader Orders and crusades in europe.

A Distant Mirror by B Tuchman is quite interesting.

The Formation Of Christendom by J Herrin (I think), is fantastic, but only goes as far as Charles the Great.

And don't forget the Alexiad by Anna Comnemnus (daughter of Alexius I of Byzantium)

But all this will only give you someone else's views. You can find a lot of primary text online. In particular, look for articals on Pope Gregory VII, and Pope Urban I. You might also want to look into the notion of charity and the investment of Bishops, the truce of God, and some of the works of St. Agustine.

Don't forget, the word crusade was invented in the 19th century. Not a single crusader every called themselves such. So what were they? Milites Christi?

And don't buy these books. Borrow them from the library. Slowly you should be able to meet like minded people who will share with you. You will find it very hit and miss after you have read the standard texts. If you read a book, it may take you say 15 hours, in the same time you might read 15 articals giving 15 peoples views. This is much better after you find you feet. This is a big subject.

[frogbeastegg]

My library is rather hopeless in general, but even more so when it comes to history. Most of their books are on modern history, and the few books they have in the periods I am interested in tend to be either ones I already own or not much use because they are beginner level introductions and do little more than a very bare bones overview of the events of a certain period. They read quite a bit like children's history, and often don't give sources or evidence at all. I've currently borrowed 'A Distant Mirror'; it's one of the few better books I don't already own. I'm ecstatic to have finally managed to find the single library copy of that book; I've been chasing after it for a while.

I shall add the other recommendations to my list, thanks. I'll also take a look for some of the online evidence; I wasn't aware anything more than tiny snippets embedded in other texts was available.

[Adrian II]

Don't forget, the word crusade was invented in the 19th century. Not a single crusader every called themselves such. So what were they? Milites Christi?That is not entirely correct. The term 'Crusade' was contemporary, though not to the first crusades.

Milites Christi (soldiers of Christ) was the term first used by Pope Gregory VII in his 1074 call to arms. The first crusaders called themselves 'pilgrims' (Latin: perigrinatores). In his vernacular (i.e. Old French) Histoire de la conquête de Constantinople (1207) Geoffroy de Villhardouin calls them 'li pelerin'.

Late in the 12th Century the term 'crusade' came into use; contemporary terms were croisiement and croiserie (French), cruzada (Spanish/Portuguese) and crociata (Italian).

Example

The day before Louis IX (Saint Louis) took up the cross for the second time, his chronicler Jehans de Joinville had a dream. In his dream he saw Louis kneel before an altar while prelates draped a ruby chasuble made of serge from Reims across his shoulders. When he asked his priest about the dream the next morning, the cleric answered: 'Excellency, as you will see it means that Louis will take up the cross tomorrow.' When Joinville asked him why, the priest explained that the ruby colour of the mantle symbolised the blood that Chist spilled from his side, his hands and his feet. And 'ce que la chasible estoit de sarge de Reins, senefie que la croiserie sera de petit esploit, aussi comme vous verréz se Dieus vous donne vie' ('the chasuble being made of serge from Reims, signifies that the crusade will be a small affair, as you will come to see if God grants you life').

So there it is, la croiserie used in 1309. Not yet croisade, which was used first in the early XVII Century.

Oh, and the final part of the Chapter contains a nice one.

Joinville joins the King's barons in the royal chapel and overhears them talking about the coming Crusade. One of them says it will bring great misery upon all of them, for 'se nous ne nous croisons, nous perderons le roy; et se nous nous croisons, nous perderons Dieu, que nous ne nous croiserons pas pour li, mais pour paour du roy' (íf we don't take up the cross with him, we lose the King; and if we take up the cross, we lose God, because we do not take it up for Him, but for fear of our King').

Livre des saintes paroles et des bons faiz nostre roy saint Looys, (1309), Ch. CXLIV

[Hurin_Rules]

The Latin for crusaders was 'crucesignati' (literally, 'those signed with the cross'). It did not appear until the late 12th century. The modern English word dates from the early modern period, but since most English writers of the high Middle Ages wrote in latin or French, they didn't really need an English word for it.

[Adrian II]

The Latin for crusaders was 'crucesignati' (literally, 'those signed with the cross'). It did not appear until the late 12th century. The modern English word dates from the early modern period, but since most English writers of the high Middle Ages wrote in latin or French, they didn't really need an English word for it.Alright, we're both historians, so let's put the icing on this etymological cake.

In the earliest sources the Crusaders were also referred to as milites Dei, pauperes (for the followers of Peter the Hermit) or Hierosolymitani ('Jerusalemers'), as well as crucesignati or cruciferi. Their armies were also called militia Dei or exercitus Dei in Latin sources.

The honourable gentlemen may consult the following sources for further details:

1. Medieval French Literature and the Crusades, D.A. Trotter, Geneva, 1988

2. Histoire d’une idéologie: La croisade, P. Rousset, Lausanne, 1983

3. What Were the Crusades?, J. Riley-Smith, London-Basingstoke, 1977

4. Du sacré: Croisades et pèlerinages. Images et langages A. Dupront, Paris, 1987

[sheelba]

lol. I stand corrected.

That'll teach me to try and remeber books I read over twenty years ago. : )

[Adrian II]

lol. I stand corrected.Leave that to a couple of stuck-ups who have nothing better to do than flaunt their utterly useless knowledge!
:bow: