WW2 Modification, any intrest?

[Visco]

Hello ppl. me and my crew of experienced modders are looking for a new game engine that can support a nice battle map whit ww2 theme. and we figure that rome is the best start point for this. however we dont know all the features of what the engine can indeed give, so here is some questions for you who played around whit thsi mod for a longer period of time...

hold your breath becouse this will sting ;)

Lets start whit units shall we?...

Tanks? i know there is seage weapons in this game and i know you can abandon them.. that also makes me know that your units does this when routeing. can you in some way force them to stay put?

Trenches? can they be created in some way and will the game support them?

Soldiers? this one is not so important but can you create so that you can order your soldiers to crawl? i mean after all we are not playing ww1 here :P.
also when the soldiers get broken up i know they retreat can you make so that you can force your enemys soldiers to put down there guns and surrender? unnessisary bloodbaths seems kind of dumb in a combat situation (not meaning that its not fun. just a waist of bullets and free information :P i know i always kill my enemy totaly in this game otherwise)

buildings? factorys etc it should not be to hard to complete but however will they function as strategic points as they actualy did in ww2?? capture them and get an instant increese of production?


new roads? / Railways
roads should not be to hard to fix. but do you guys think we can add railways aswell? and if so can they be blocked by enemy forces? chokepoints.


only real answers that can help on the issues plz. and also try to keep it a little longer then just "yes" or "no"

info on my team:
Modders all of us.
we prev. modded soldiers heroes of ww2 and some of us whit good succes.
we are now looking for a good engine to compeate some new ideas we have and there for we need to test around. becouse we ask all this dont mean we will actualt go thru whit modding this game. however the outlooks seems bright

// Tommy "Major R. Visco" +++++

[stichmaster1]

im not sure but to do the crawling, you would probably have to get rid of the running or the walking to make space.

the only way to get a unit to stop routing is to have its morale boosted, ie a general

trenches would be very hard to do and i think the only way to have them work is to make the map a "floating wall" with ladders permanently attached and the regular ground being the bottom of the trench.

for buildings, in base rtw if you capture a city you gain a strategic ability as soon as you exit the battle

rail roads will be easy to accomplish as they can just be a replacement for the upper level roads

another thing is a very hard thing to deal with, FLYING UNITS, planes will not work on rtw, as you would be able to attack them by stabbing them from the groud, also they would create a bulge through the units on the battle field similar to the elephants

that is all i have for now, but there are very many problems to starting a mod like this on the rtw engine, i would like to see it done but it will be a struggle

[Visco]

yeah ofcourse it will be astruggle. but that is also a bit of the charm whit modding :P doing stuff no one else did.

however..

i was thinking of the planes and just about to post when i say you already did :P.

BOMBERS was a key factor to ww2. im not sure if this can be done in some way i mean its a realy important factor.. maybee if you create it as an event? well that would prob not work eather.

trenches are not so important after all. i mean ww2 was a very swift battle were the frontline constantly changed. bunkers however was inportant.

as for the crawling. remove on of run / walk. well you dont walk much in battle ofcourse but makeing your soldiers tired of running to the front.. giveing the enemy a head start on you due to your troops are exhausted.. well that would lead to players not willing to actualy take a step forward waiting out the enemy. unless you could do transports in some way...

as for the roads and railways. i dont wanna REMOVE the roads. i just wanna ADD railways :P and there for the option of advanced roads = railways cant be used. i want it to be build seperatly so it will have more strategic effects.

but the main consern is the bombings. we realy need a way to simulate bombing raids. as i sayed it was the leading point of the war. not only busting factorys.. but also busting enemy tanks and defences. Stukkas etc CAS. maybee it can be done the same way as sea battles are done. you dont controll the battle you can only simulate.

that way you can intercept enemy bombers whit fighters and shoot them down. easy whit a simulation.

alltho airbases will need to be constructed.. maybee like bunkers? by a special general "aircommander"

[Myrddraal]

Lets start whit units shall we?...

Tanks? i know there is seage weapons in this game and i know you can abandon them.. that also makes me know that your units does this when routeing. can you in some way force them to stay put?

If I wanted to make tanks, I wouldn't make them using the siege engine idea. I would make the tank a mount. I would then use various riders as the weapons.

For example, to make a heavy tank with loads of guns I would:

Make a new type of mount which is the body of the tank. The only animation for this would be movement (the wheels in the tracks turning and maybe it would rock a bit) and death (maybe it would crumple in a way and dip over on one side)
Make a new unit for the main turret. Give him a new type of projectile for the weapon. This man would have two animations: firing, where the barrel of the gun would recoil, and death. You will notice on horse archers in particluar that as the unit moves, the rider can face any direction. In the same way, the turret would turn and shoot in any direction whilst the tank moves.
I would then add other weapons in a similar way (maybe a guy sticking his head out of a hatch with a machine gun.
The advantages of this method as opposed to using seige engins:



Individual weapons can be distroyed without the whole tank being destroyed
The guns can fire whilst moving and in any direction
The disadvantages


The crew and tank are one unit, it cannot be abandoned.


Trenches? can they be created in some way and will the game support them?

Here is how I would work trenches. I would make them like a very small wall, with sand bags etc, which would act like normal walls in Rome. Instead of towers I would have bunkers which would serve as entry points into the trench with fixed guns. Gates I would make into road blocks which can be opened or closed

Again I'll give the advantages



Men can be placed in trenches
They could be built around your settlement or base
A possible dissadvantage


Tanks and men could not go over them unless they were first destroyed.

Soldiers? this one is not so important but can you create so that you can order your soldiers to crawl? i mean after all we are not playing ww1 here :P.
I'll give three suggestions:

1.
Maybe if you gave them a special ability like warchant, called take cover, where the animation would be them going to ground. The reason this isn't really practical is that you wouldn't be able to shoot at the same time, and I'm not sure you could make it give them a resistance to shooting anyway.

2.
You could make the idle and shooting animation on the ground. This way, units would get up to run, then get down again at the other end.

3. The best solution I can think of:
Mod the testudo formation so that the animation for it is in cover, and a bit futher spaced out.

Advantage


Units cannot run in testudo and move more slowly
Units are more resistant to being shot at in testudo formation
Disadvantage


I don't think you can shoot in testudo

also when the soldiers get broken up i know they retreat can you make so that you can force your enemys soldiers to put down there guns and surrender? unnessisary bloodbaths seems kind of dumb in a combat situation (not meaning that its not fun. just a waist of bullets and free information :P i know i always kill my enemy totaly in this game otherwise)
The short answer is no. Units always run away.


buildings? factorys etc it should not be to hard to complete but however will they function as strategic points as they actualy did in ww2?? capture them and get an instant increese of production?
The only way I think you could do this is to make them a defense like the walls (maybe an upgrade to trenches like bunkers) Otherwise, the buildings can't be occupied.


new roads? / Railways
roads should not be to hard to fix. but do you guys think we can add railways aswell? and if so can they be blocked by enemy forces? chokepoints.
The roads appearing on the campaign map are hard coded so you can only have one. You could make railways an upgrade to roads, but they couldn't be blocked...

I hope this helps (I took some time working this out) ~;)

Welome to the forums...

[JimBob]

As to bombers, heavy bomber were not used in front line battles. So they could be replaced with an assasin like unit. Some way of forcing the unit to return to an air field at some point would be nessecary.
In all honesty Total War does not lend itself to any era after WWI. Even WWI would be difficult.

[Visco]

Wow that is alot of info. i will have to look at how the units handle the diffent movements etc and i think your stuff helps ALOT. the idea whit the bombers were also nice ;).
me and my crew will start working on some ideas in the comming days and i hope we can work this out ;) i realy do.
and when ppl say it cant be done. that is kind of makeing me want this to work even more ;) the idea whit the tanks were genious. :D

[Myrddraal]

Thanks, I'm flattered

[Zharakov]

I can give you ALOT of info on Tanks and infantry, and guns.

Also, I am good with this area of history. But msot of my time will go to the Atlantis MOD. ~D

[Visco]

ok so we are trying to work this plugin for 3dsmax out. when running the script nothing happens ... this is a little older version of 3dmax is there a special version that is needed?.

[Visco]

I can give you ALOT of info on Tanks and infantry, and guns.

Also, I am good with this area of history. But msot of my time will go to the Atlantis MOD. ~D


yeah we need help whit some stuff ;) we will set up a page and i will post the link here. then you can join the modding team ofcourse ;) we need alot of info about battles and the exact location of key citys in russia mainly well the easternfront. for example stalingrad?? were is it :P. hahah

[Myrddraal]

Whats wrong with the CAS extractor?

[Myrddraal]

Its not enough just to run the script, from the readme:

To run the script save it to your 3dsmax\scripts folder. In max go to the
utilities tab and hit run script, open the script. Select from the utilities
drop down R:TW import/export.

[Visco]

ive run 3dsmax and then "maxscript" -> run script chosen the script in the file i downloaded. and nothing happens.. is there not some kind of "popup" that shall appear?.. or were can i find it ?

[Visco]

yeah i placed the file in the right place. i run the script. were can i find this "utility" tab? never seen it before.. :|

[Myrddraal]

I'm not that experienced with max
Could it be the thing on the right? You know the kind of box thing...
Thats not exceptionally clear is it?

[Zharakov]

yeah we need help whit some stuff ;) we will set up a page and i will post the link here. then you can join the modding team ofcourse ;) we need alot of info about battles and the exact location of key citys in russia mainly well the easternfront. for example stalingrad?? were is it :P. hahah

Spasibo!

Here is a good site.

ANd its in ENGLISH! ~:cheers:

Tanks of WWII (http://www.military.cz/panzer/index_en.htm)

Just click on the tanks section. And your good.

My favorite is the T-34... ~:)

[Visco]

yes indeed. the T-34 / 85 is one of ww2's most beutifull tanks. russian tanks in winter camo... is there any more butifull pic ? :P..

some thoughts me and the team is working on.

the use of special forces....
for me it seems that we will not have major problems makeing units faster and stronger bla bla bla. im more thinking of the ability of useing Mg42's. as they were a large part of the german defence ;), these units will have to be special in that way that they cant be a big consentration of troops

also i want to make so that you cant create groups of "100" soldiers in one turn. i want it to be made in squad / platoon / Batallion, so you can create "swift and dirty" troopers. but that will only be one squad of maybee 10 - 15 men. this could take one turn. and the others will take some more.

also i have not looked in to this thing yet but can i in some way edit so instead of takeing 6 months jumps it will take 1 month or maybee even 1 week.

and still we have problems running the script in 3d studio.. if any one can shine some light on this i would be greatfull

[Myrddraal]

OK, how to use the CAS exporter script. Doing this from memory so it might not be quite right.


Run the script
Click on the utilities tab: On the right on the tools thing, its the one that looks like a hammer.
I think you then click on MAXscripts, and some options should apear below, you may have to scroll down.
There should be three tabs: CAS import/export, CAS import and CAS export
You should be able to work out the rest

As for the different length turns, I'm working on this, check out the thread entitled Myrdraal in the General forum.

[Zharakov]

I was thinking, *and when I do that bad things happin...* and I think that this should be a World Wars MOD not just WWII.

I think this should start in 1914 *around* and end in 1950 *around* and have a "between wars" period that acts like the Gauius Marius effect and change the units for each facion.



Next I though about planes. What if they were agents that:

Fighters: Stoped enemy planes

Bomber: Did damage to enemy troops and citys before battle

Fighter/bombers: Could attack enemys during battle by being an unmoveable invisible target on the edge of the battle that fired "bombs" and "Machinegun fire"...


Now as for factions, if we include WWI then I think the faction list should look like...

Tzarist Russia (Changes to CCCP after WWI)
England
France
Germany
Ottoman Empire (Changes to what ever after WWI)
Japanese
Manchuria *China*
The United States
Canada (Could belong to England?)
Austro-Hungarian Empire (Changes to what ever after WWI)
Italy


For the senate:

Tripple Allience (UK, France, & Russia with UK being the senate)

or Tripple Eauntaunt (Germany, Austria, & Italy with Austria being the senate)

[Zharakov]

Here are some guns used by the Russians.

Top to bottom: SVT-38, SVT-40, AVT-40, and SVT-40 Carbine.
http://ww2rustc.www5.50megs.com/svtpic1.jpg

DP-28 light machine gun
http://ww2rustc.www5.50megs.com/dp.gif

PPSh-41 submachine gun
http://ww2rustc.www5.50megs.com/s_ppsh41.jpg


found Here (http://ww2rustc.www5.50megs.com/weapons.html)

And here is a page on the Mosin Nagant *Used during WWI & WWII*
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/russian_section.htm

I will see if I can find more for other nations.

[BassV2]

testudo turned prone, cool...

ask this ANIMATION GOD for help! He's AWESOME!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23763

[BassV2]

oh yeah just wanted to say it's not Manchuria. The revolution already happened. this time should have Chinese Communists and Chinese NAtionalists...

[Visco]

yeah i will. he seem kind off good ;). got the cas inporter working now that is nice. howeverr it dont load skins. maybee i need to fix that later. or manualy.. :P

[Myrddraal]

It does load skins, I believe its an option under the import tab...

[Zharakov]

As I remeber the Quin dynasty wasn't over thrown untill after WWI... But I may be worng...


And also, haveing the game take place in WWI for starters is good becasue most nations used Cavelry during WWI. And Russia used cavelry as late as WWII...

[BassV2]

yes it was. Early 1912, the Nationalists were in power then, after overthrowing. After WWI it was Civil War between the Communists and Nationalists. it was still Civil War during WWII, but in WWII it was kinda ceasefire to drive off the Japs then they civil wared again until the Nashies got pushed to Taiwan.

[Reverend Joe]

Question for the people working on this mod:

how are you going to deal with the tiny maps in Rome TW? Can you make the soldiers really little? Otherwise, you're gonna have major scale problems, because forces of 1600 men did not compact themselves onto areas as small as in RTW.

[Visco]

Question for the people working on this mod:

how are you going to deal with the tiny maps in Rome TW? Can you make the soldiers really little? Otherwise, you're gonna have major scale problems, because forces of 1600 men did not compact themselves onto areas as small as in RTW.


that is ofcourse true. and also a good question that i dont realy have an anser to just yet.. as we are still in sperm version of this mod . if you know what i mean....

prob we will make the units Squads smaller. from maybee 50 or so -> 10. and that way make so it get some realism to it.

also if its possible we will create so that you can create 3 types of squads.
Squad = 10 soldiers
Platoon = 30 - 50 Soldiers
Battalion = 100 -> soldiers

how ever we want a max limit so you cant have Several thousend of troops on one map... ofcorse in a city battle were several div fights it would be some what real. but on open fields.. naah dont think so.

also haveing 5 army groups whit maybee 1200 soldiers in each would be bad. this way you would not have a frontline. instead you would have strike forces. and that is not realy how it worked.. most contrys had there entire front swamped whit troops. and not like in RTW were you have 4 major armys, one in each direction. North, South, West And East. and some to clean up rebells in the occupied areas...

[Bwian]

As far as I understand it, there is a minimum unit size of 6. Maximum is 240. This is hard-coded, and takes the form of a 'base' size which is multiplied depending on whether you want large, huge etc, unit sizes.

This is hard-coded and not changeable.

This might force you to use siege units as a base for armoured vehicles, since they seem to be the only unit that isn't bound by this.

[Myrddraal]

Why? You don't want 240 tanks in one unit?!?!?!?

[Zharakov]

No, we could have 3 gunners on a tank. And 5 tanks in a grope.

That equals 15 people.

There, that works.

[Reverend Joe]

I'm still a little suspicious about this mod...

Eliminating planes is gonna be tough, because they played pivotal frontline roles throughout the war, not to mention airborne troopd being eliminated. Then there's the problem of scale, since you'll never be able to use realistic numbers of troops unless the map is enormous. Also, true long-range artillery support will be unfeasible.

Overall, this project may be achievable, but it will never get to the level you might want.

Still, it'll be fun to pit IS-3's against Koningstiger tanks.

Good luck.

[Zharakov]

I posted something about planes a few posts back... But I geuss everyone ignored it...


And inaccuality, haveing RTW sized fights would be VARY realistic. All of the big fights like Stalingrad or D-Day took DAYS if not MONTHS to play out...

[Myrddraal]

Exactly, each battle wouldn't be a battle in the sense of Stanlingrad. If ur using my several turns a year script, then each battle will be part of the major battle.

Also, in terms of gameplay, I think having too many units would spoil it... I wan't to control my tanks, as units, not just send fifty of them forward..

[Zharakov]

I agree. We need to alow it to feel like long battles by haveing all the "battles" act more like skirmishes...

[Myrddraal]

Any news on this mod?

[Reverend Joe]

It's dead. :end:

[Myrddraal]

How do you know, or are you just guessing?

[The_Ferret]

Tanks yes, trenches yes, new roads and stuff yes. Everything yes. Our WWI mod has almost done it. But the problem with WWII is planes. However a way around this would be to have them act like fleet battles, except over sea or land. what do you think? anyway the engine is capable of most of what you need for WWII. You'll need some damn good animators though. If your team is interested you could come and help us with our WWI mod at the WWI mod forums (http://s9.invisionfree.com/WWI_Total_War/index.php?act=idx) You might learn limitations of the engine, and, the complete thing would onl need a few tweeks to become a WWII mod. what do you think?

Mainly though, everything you want to do is perfectly possible. ~:)

[Myrddraal]

Mainly though, everything you want to do is perfectly possible.

Thanks for telling us ~;)

I saw your mod. Its good. How are you doing tanks? Same way as I suggested?

I hope this mod doesn't die. Perhaps you could work together?

[The_Ferret]

Possibly yes. And for tanks, we are going to use elephants as a base. Since there weren't too many tanks throughout WWI it is not such a concern of ours as it should be to you. We are using aircraft etc. as agents which will probably need to be more widely used in your mod. This is a way around a blockade. Since aircraft in WWII however were more equipped for dogfighting, like I say, fleet battles would be a perfect base for you. Possibly working together and throwing one-another finds or bases that would help the development of the other mod would get them both done quicker ~:cheers: . Again I say, no mod is impossible if you can find the determination to stick at it.

All I'll say is GL as this one will be FAR more complex than our mod. :bow:

[Lonely Soldier]

This mod seems like it will be very difficult to make :dizzy2: . I wish you luck. By its very nature World War II was fought on huge expanses of land and between squads and teams rather than vast hordes - except maybe in tank battles.

I had a thought regarding the planes: you could either have them function as fleets - which could travel over land of course - or as spies/assassins - tell them to target an army or settlement and off they go!

Well, as I said, best of luck!

PS. At least you've got an easier job than the WWI guys - trenches :help: .

[The_Ferret]

We've sussed the trenches at WWI. We are re-modelling forts. The whole point of a TW game is so that the player can fight it how he wanted. If he doesn't want trenches from the alps to the northsea, or if he decides the eastern front lacked trenches, it's his/her choice. We have sussed a lot of it whilst preserving gameplay

I say again however, you need to WANT this to work and you need to be willing to try as hard as you can to keep it alive. If it's already dead, oh well, but my advice is to be heeded, be it now or in the future.

I also had another idea. If you were to join up with us, we could make the two mods together and release them as a "world at war" mod. Two campaigns, two periods for custom battle. It'd also get em both done a HELL of a lot quicker. Drop by if you feel like it.

[Bwian]

It's not a question of 'wanting it to work' really...it has to ACTUALLY work. If you end up with so many compromises, workarounds, and 'what if's ' just to hammer the concept into something the game engine can handle it ceases to be a World War 1 mod.

You have to take the ESSENCE of WW1 and turn it into a playable game.

What were the 'Essential' features ?

Simple.

1) Tactics. The war began with the old fashioned idea that men could force a breakthrough in the enemy lines, which cavalry would then exploit to disorganise supply and reinforcement lines to allow the troops to consolidate. The process would then repeat. All armies maintained cavalry units well beyond the point that it became clear they would never be useful

2) Weapons. Machine guns and heavy artillery. These were the key defensive and offensive weapons of the war. Bigger guns than ever before proliferated. Artillery duels were commonplace, and the usual prelude to any attack.

The way trench warfare happened was a natural case of superior defensive weapons facing outmoded attack strategies. Haig continued to believe that sufficient troops with enough 'courage' could overwhelm any obstacle.

If you want to make your WW1 mod work, you have to have the same sort of tactical and strategic choices that governed the way WW1 evolved. Weak ground attacks, facing strong defensive weaponry. The Germans continually tried to outflank the British and Belgian forces until they reached the sea.

This got me wondering why WW1 was such a rarely chosen period for wargames at squad level. Another easy one. It's actually VERY DULL INDEED. Months of sitting in reserve or in front line rotations. Sniping, shelling, disease. Then maybe an attack in which 90% of your men get cut down in no-mans land. It would work OK on the strategy map level, but it just doesn't give you the right options once you hit the battle map.

I will be impressed indeed if you capture the 'Feel' of WW1 and don't just end up with a load of WW1 models marching around in unrealistic 'line' formations fighting souped up archery battles. I can see you have the enthusiasm... but you just don't have the right game engine to start with.

AW crap! Meant to post this in the WW1 thread ( just got off a plane after a 10 hour flight...so slightly jet lagged! ) Still...I think a workable WW2 mod with this engine is even LESS likely to work well. Just the wrong sort of war. It's not a question of 'nay-saying' ... it's just a question of being realistic.

[The_Ferret]

I meant most of the above. I mean, you need to have faith that your ideas can work and only choose the 'way around' option if you find yourself hurtling head on into a brick wall at a considerable speed.