Creative Assembly New unit types [Archive]

Ii Naomasa

01-09-2001, 00:58

I have to agree with those who are becoming disheartened with these recent updates. The battlefield ninja could be interesting if they get slaughtered when facing troops face to face (primarily making them a sneak around to rear of target group and attack, hoping to kill before another group assists)...but it'll be difficult I think for that using current stats. This master swordsman is again a step in what seems like the wrong direction.

Out4Blood's idea is much more reasonable...a 1 man upgrade to a unit that would bolster the whole group.

But I doubt even the legendary version of Miyamoto Musashi could 'take' a bridge held by 120 spearmen with 240 archers firing at him...

johnmcd-san, the problem with ninja is that there's little written evidence for them directly. A lot of actions (such as Uesugi Kenshin's death) have been attributed to ninja, whether or not the action was natural or an act of something other than the infamous black pajama team (such as disguised samurai, animals, bandits or other rogues). Much of what has become accepted as ninja material is either modifications on extraordinary tales told/written by the populace, or from people like Stephen Hayes, who have garnered their knowledge from supposed scrolls from their ancient ninja ryu. I am in no position to make any claim on the whole validity of the latter, but I do dislike having only one source of information (which, ultimately, most modern works on ninja come from). Much like with Dr.Turnbull being the most popular English-writing authority on Japanese military history, any mistakes or personal opinions become fact when people have nothing that disputes/validates the claims.

With that said, it's been fairly accepted that the 'black pajamas' were just one of many outfits, all suited to specific tasks. In addition to the probably most often used disguise of just being someone else (peasant, retainer, etc), the ninja, if the books and museums are to be believed, were fairly ingenious as espionage engineering, from tools that could collapse to sandals that cut down on the effectiveness of 'nightingale boards' (which were laid down in homes and castles to make obvious sounds when stepped on). If so, one would suspect that all manner of colors were used in their outfits, as well as other camouflage agents such as leaves and branches.

Their effective use on battlefields in the middle of a battle is very suspect, though....

As you point out, tales abound of lone samurai holding a position against hordes of enemies. In fact, it's classic to the whole warrior tradition. But, as you well point out, it's usually in situations where terrain is definitely in the lone warrior's favor and rarely does he have to face archers or gunman while defending said spot.

At the Battle of Uji, which was one of the early skirmishes of the Genpei war, there is an account of two monks who stood their ground on a bridge to let others retreat. My apologies, but the first one's name I can't remember (and any references are at home) was reported to duck and jump under and over the Taira arrows, while slicing those that came at him straight on with his naginata. Definitely exaggerated, but even here he's only concerned with arrows, not a wall of spears in addition to them. When another sohei, Jomyo, took his place and the Taira tried to cross, he fought them for a long time, first with his naginata and working his way down to his tanto as each weapon broke from repeated use. Here we see hand to hand, but no word of arrows coming his way.

A thin bridge without archers to deal with could possible be defended by one man, as a unit of 120 could be eliminated by a skilled team of 40 if ambushed in the woods. But the problem arises when the number crunching that provides these abilities starts to apply to the open field (as johnmcd points out).

At some point, one has to decide to stay historically accurate as best as one can while maintaining gameplay (which is what Shogun itself seemed to be striving for) or allowing legendary units to make the game more 'fun' and 'exciting'(in some people's eyes). The latter might give you a battle more like legends would have it (and the further you go back in Japanese military history, the more you begin to rely on less than 100% accurate tales), but for those looking for an historical encounter, disappoint will probably come faster than panic to an mistreated ashigaru unit.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 01-08-2001).]

Nelson

01-09-2001, 00:59

Amen, Tachikaze.

Obake

01-09-2001, 01:29

I just checked out the info on the "Master Swordsman" over at .com.

I'm going to reserve judgement until we know more about just how powerful this particular unit is and how it will be used.

Tachi, regardless of how it sounds, both the Ninja and the master swordsman (aka Kensai) did exist on the Sengoku battlefield. There are many accounts of special assault squads that were used to penetrate behind enemy battle lines to wreak havoc and assassinate Taisho. My guess is that this is what the Ninja unit is based on. Were these squads actually Ninja? I don't know, and there is some debate in martial circles about that issue. As far as the Kensai unit goes, They were even more rare (I am only aware of 2 during the entire Sengoku period) but did exist.

If we are going to lean towards realism then don't even consider Ashi archers (no such thing). In fact, in terms of realism, we should really remove Warrior monks from the mix as they were practically non-existant on the Sengoku battlefield other than during Oda's Ikkyo Ikki campaign and for a short period of time when the Ikkyo Ikki ruled Kaga. Bear in mind also that the Ikkyo Ikki were primarily peasant armies and Monks were a small portion of the forces they fielded.

As long as we're at it, let's dump the Yari Samurai unit and create a Katana Samurai unit as that was the weapon that defined the Samurai, not the Yari. Don't forget to take out the Samurai Archer and Cavalry Archer units as the bow was no longer a significant factor on the battlefield by the Sengoku period.

I don't mean to trash, so please don't take it that way. My intent is only to point out that the developers have done a good job with their unit selection and balance up to now and that we should give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise with these new units. I know that these new units could easily be abused both online and in the campaign, but let the developers show us more before we decide.

Getting back to this master swordsman, I could see no more that one ever being available during the course of an SP campaign, and certainly not something that could be "purchased". For online, if they do include this unit, I can't imagine how it would adhere to the normal honor level system that we use for choosing units. Perhaps for online there will be a maximum of 1 unit per army with a set cost (something like 2000 koku should be sufficient). I seriously doubt that many online generals would invest that amount of capital into a single man unit regardless of how good it is.

Another thing to remember is that although the site says that he is capable of taking on a whole unit, nothing is mentioned about it's vulnerability to ranged fire. I don't care how good a unit is, it's eventually going to fall to ranged fire. And don't forget that this particular unit in all likelihood will have no impact when it comes to morale checks related to flanking.

Again, we don't have enough information on these units yet to do anything other than speculate.

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[This message has been edited by Obake (edited 01-08-2001).]

Magyar Khan

01-09-2001, 05:24

i feel something in the air that the developers are using the add on to test new things like sole units/soldiers to the game, maybe some games will be made where just warbands of units lets say 10-50 are fighting in a fantasy setting.

or it is just some small outer hystorical add to attract younger players who are used to the arcade style and like to have one superman on the field. those who play tabletop warhammer will kjnow what i am talking about.

The Black Ship

01-09-2001, 05:56

Technically speaking this thread is in the wrong forum...but since Richie started it here I'll add my two cents worth http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Battlefield ninja are acceptable....no more leaving your Taisho waaayyy back so he's safe! I still think it will be a unit that doesn't show the unit stats when you point your mouse at them: you must visually spot them if you plan to avoid them. Sort of a stealth bomber of Shogun units.

Master swordsman seem like great defensive units aimed at situations where flanking isn't easily accomplished! Think of Leonidas' Spartans at Thermopylae. I hope they left a flanking penalty in place for those times they are surrounded on open ground http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Are we going to see 4-5 swordsmen sweeping the plains of Totomi killing everything in sight...no way. Could we see one lone swordsman defending a bridge province while backed up by archers or guns....you bet! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by The Black Ship (edited 01-08-2001).]

The Daimyo

01-09-2001, 07:11

I like the new units, and I hope to see more like them soon. I'm enough of a history buff to know that there are a lot of things that they can add into this game that will liven it up both in campaigns and online.
The battlefield ninjas, master swordsmen, and etc. are all things that will keep this game fresh and bring battles out of being the SOS that they become after 100's of matches. Wise players should realize that the game's creators are actually going pretty far out of their way to balance the units and bring in new stuff that IS actually historically sound.
Some things may seem a bit off at the moment, but I am sure that when the expansion comes out and we all get to see what this is all about we will be pleased. People are too quick to pass judgement on this matter.
I saw some more screens in PCGamer magazine and was elated to find new features on the screens that we've been asking for since the demo. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The only thing that I am puzzling over is the CAMPAIGNS. There was a list of things that we all wanted to see added and from what we've been told MOST of those things were not addressed or mentioned. Maybe many of them will be included, but we've not heard a thing about it beyond "new buildings" and "multiplayer campaigns".
If The Shogun could perhaps let us know about any other things that will actually affect the strategic gameplay that would be great and help take the focus off of these units - which are IMHO great additions to the field of play.

Hmm... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

The Daimyo

01-09-2001, 07:19

BTW, did anyone save all of those really long and extensive threads (about the new features and stuff we all wanted) that we all contributed to here? I can remember most of my material, but there was a LOT of other good material that I can't because there was just SO much of it.

Anyone? Anyone got it?

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

Ronin

01-09-2001, 07:24

Johnmcd: as far as i know there is no historical reference to the ninja black uniform that´s just a result of folktale and movies mostly ninja would try to blend into their suroundings.So it would be alot better if the battlefield ninja was disquised as an enemy soldier for example

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

ShadowKill

01-09-2001, 08:48

Just to put in for a one guy thing in alot of wars there has been an outsatnding person who with a lil bit of luck killed more then his share of men "in ww2 1 man the last in his company head his position for 24 hrs and by the end of the night there were just a lil under 250 men dead around him" this was not fantacy nor is it over exagerated. so Even thou i could not see a person all by himself kill off 250 men it happened then so what is to say it could not happen in this time.

2nd it was stated holding a castle gate not in open terrian no reson to go off making assuptions on that. (give it a chance)

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)

The Scourge

01-09-2001, 10:40

Well this Master Swordsman reminds me of a thread i started a while back.
The thread was about an honour 15 Wm i once came across.(Probably a one off bug)
Anyway ,i used a whole units worth of arrows on him before sending the hand to handers in.And those arrows didn't do a thing.
So if this Master Swordsman is just a very high honour lone unit,then ive a feeling that a few of us are not going to like it very much.
Oh well ,lets wait and see.
But im getting worried.

Ii Naomasa

01-09-2001, 10:56

There is a slight difference between night fighting (in a dug in position, I presume) with a rifle and hand-to-hand in the middle of a battlefield. Funneling people down to one or two at a time makes things easier (as long as no one has a clear ranged shot on you), so I can see bridges and castle gates (which are already ridiculously easy to defend...I actually had one warrior monk hold off a castle mostly by himself for the better part of half a battle (was amused to see just one monk animating, beating back about fifty-something YS before falling to them and the archers behind them)). I just hope that he doesn't survive well to arrowfire or anything more than attacks from his forward 180 degree arc (at most).

solypsist

01-09-2001, 13:22

It was stated in the original STW that Stephen Turnbull was the creative/historical consultant; I wonder if they left him off this project.

Dark Phoenix

01-09-2001, 14:00

Soly Dr Turnbull was there in September when they posted his interview on the offical site. I am sure that they would of asked him some questions. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Tachikaze

01-09-2001, 15:11

I don't think I've ever lodged a complaint about Shogun: TW before this thread.

However, I would like to see this game stick to units of tactical battlefield warfare. The presence of a "hero" in a unit to influence its morale I can perhaps live with, but having a tireless Minamoto Yoshitsune running around chopping up No-Dachi units is video game fantasy or heroic legend.

I was hoping the game would remain mature. If these units are introduced, I hope there's a checkbox in the Options Menu to omit them.

It sounds like there is plenty of interesting stuff in the add-on. Mongols and Korean Auxiliaries sound great. We don't need ninjas silently leaping about the battlefield like anime characters, throwing shuriken and smoke bombs.

But I realize I don't have all the info yet. I'll wait and see. The master swordsman may work out, but I shuddered upon reading the "N" word. cringe

Obake,
I dispute the unimportance of archers in your post. Samurai pincushions were still prominant in sengoku-era artwork. Castles were built after 1600 with separate loopholes for teppo and bows.

And if there were few or no ashi archers, Turnbull is mistaken in his books.

I do respect the efforts of the developers in their balancing and playtesting. I just think they may be trying to please a certain buying public that I don't belong to.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 01-09-2001).]

Nelson

01-09-2001, 19:31

Thank you once again Tachikaze for saving me some typing. You're right about ashigaru archers. THEY should be the new unit. And your last sentence hit the nail on the head.

It's all about marketing. Add-on expansions need at least two things to sell, new units and new maps/campaigns. Ninjas are popular so here they come. I doubt there wil be a check box to leave them out. A fantasy/reality check box is what we need IMO!

It comes down to this:

Do we want Shogun to be mostly a wargame where the fun is reaching the victory conditions within historic parameters and where gross inaccuracies are disturbing?

OR

Do we want Shogun to be mostly an AoK/Starcraft RTS style game where the fun is using all sorts of units (real or imagined) in ways that are unimpeded by reality and where history is just a veneer?

This is not an insult to anyone. Both genres are fun. AoK and Starcraft have sold more than Shogun ever will. I play them both. I had hoped that Shogun would remain more a wargame and not become too ahistoric but the lure of the mass market is too great. No, I haven't played the expansion yet but I know what I like and this super unit business isn't it.

Obake

01-09-2001, 21:37

Tachi,

If it turns out that the developers ARE using the add-on in order to draw a certain buying public, I'm with you!

I don't blame you at all for your concerns as I have them also, but I've been satisfied with the decisions the developers made in the initial release and I see no reason not to assume they would be just as sound in their decision making this time around as well.

I doubt that we'll have a tireless Minamoto Yoshitsune or Musashi running around. Personally I'm hoping that most of everyone's concern is fueled by Scourge's SuperMonk thread from a while back.

As far as Archers go, check the dates on that Sengoku era artwork. My guess is that those pieces were created prior to 1550. I'll admit that I may be wrong about the Ashi archers (who am I to dispute Turnbull) but I seriously doubt that they were anything OTHER than few for the simple reason of practicality. Learning to use the bow effectively took many years while Ashi could be trained to use the arquebus in a matter of weeks. Don't forget that in 1549 Oda Nobunaga placed an order for 500 guns. By 1575 he had over 10,000 in his army. I doubt that he had that many archers especially when you consider that the effective killing range on an arquebus is more than double that of the bow.

At any rate, this discussion is more appropriately reserved for the History forum than here so I'll leave this thread back to it's original subject, the communities concerns about the new units.

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Tachikaze

01-10-2001, 02:59

Obake,

Agreed. Perhaps, in the future, we shall meet on the battlefield of historical debate on the plains of the History/Cinema Forum to continue this epic struggle of twine and fletchery.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

Anssi Hakkinen

01-10-2001, 05:36

Originally posted by Nelson:
Quote It's all about marketing. Add-on expansions need at least two things to sell, new units and new maps/campaigns. Ninjas are popular so here they come. I doubt there wil be a check box to leave them out. A fantasy/reality check box is what we need IMO![/QUOTE]All right, everyone (not just Nelson), take a deep breath. If necessary, let off some more steam in another fashion of your choice.

You are overreacting. STW is *certainly* not going to turn into another Starcraft or AoK just because an expansion pack introduces a Kensai unit. STW will never be Starcraft or AoK, because the entire game has taken a completely different standpoint from the very start.

The developers will be adding a unit composed of a single man. He will be able to take on an entire company of lesser men and, if not slay them all, at least emerge victorious. Admittedly, this is more the stuff of legends (NOT fantasy) than something that has really occurred on the field and been immortalized in reliable military annals. But how does this suddenly turn the entire game into a cheap attempt to grab the ignorant public's money?

Look at the list of features that was presented weeks ago in the press release (http://www.totalwar.com/community/mongolpr.htm) at the Community Site (http://www.totalwar.com/community/index.htm). Among all its other features (all of which are neat, IMO) it says it will include six new units. Four have already been named, and two of them are fully realistic and historical units. It has been expressly stated many times that we (the community) would like it very much if the Mongols were included, and they were.

The there are the BNinja. Now that I look at that Stephen Turnbull interview, I think he pretty much gives his blessings to the use of that unit in the game... "After all, they *were* used in the battlefield" or something to that effect. Then there's the Kensai, who will be there to do the enemy what Miyamoto Musashi did to the Yoshioka swordsmen.

This may not be a strict interpretation of history, but neither is the strategy map of Japan (no Settsu!), nor is the composition of the armies (not enough Ashigaru), nor is the use of massive formations of *exclusively* no-dachi- or naginata-wielding troops, nor is the presence of Warrior Monks.

STW is a compromise, like every digital reproduction of the real world. But the fundamental point is: I think CA is not trying to make a game about history because that history sells, but to make a game about history because that history is interesting... and in the case of Japan in particular, interesting means legendary. The samurai are a myth, more than anything else. To capture that mythical atmosphere as STW has so wonderfully done (enticing all of you!), it must be something of a myth itself.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-09-2001).]

The Daimyo

01-10-2001, 09:30

Amen Anssi, you hit the nail on the head there, yet again.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

(this is the part where the Moderator sends this post to another forum.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
watch!)

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

Zen Blade

01-10-2001, 10:14

Actually, I am in the minority here....

I think that the master swordsman is a good addition if it is done correctly. Namely as a unit who can HOLD a defensive position by itself, without running.

I site the example of the disengagment of the Asakura army at the Anegawa. (in which one samurai with a no-dachi more or less used the samurai's code of honor to challenge opposing samurai to duels and held back the Tokugawa force long enough for the Asakura to disengage. However, this man and his son both perished while they were doing this action)

Also, I don't know if we know how the swordsman will be incorporated in the game, but it is possible that this will not be a "building unit". It could be a slight upgrade to a single soldier who has gained a lot of honor, or may only be available in certain game scenarios.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

Shiro

01-10-2001, 10:24

I've posted this in the expansion forum but I thought I'd say it again here. Since the Master Swordsman can "take out whole units" how much will this guy cost?

Tachikaze

01-10-2001, 10:49

I guess I'm just tired of hearing about ninja all the time. From halloween costumes, to manga, to silly movies, to junior high school boys telling exaggerated stories. I wish we could touch on the subject of historical Japan without ninjas hidding in the shadows every time. I think they played a very minor role in the history of Japan.

Their place in the current game is approprite because they fit better as a strategic factor, not tactical.

But I will wait and see what CA has got in mind.

ltj

01-10-2001, 11:52

I rather like the idea of a battlefield ninja, especially for multiplayer. As long as it doesn't end up as some kind of stealth-fighter-esque uberunit, undetectable (or, invisible) and unstoppable, it could provide a very interesting decision for players to make - take up a unit slot (or spend the koku, whichever is more relevant) for such a small "force" - whose effectiveness may or may not be widely compromised by a simple defensive position, over adding a full 60 (or however large you prefer) man unit to your army...

Naturally, the above is mostly (or completely!) pertaining to multiplayer gaming, but I doubt the effectiveness of the ninja against AI will be that overwhelming. After all, the software opponent handles its Daimyo and taisho's pretty poorly, often sending its meager 11 heavy calvary headlong into a mass of awaiting yari spears.

Either way, I anticipate the feedback (read: bitching) the expansion pack will create. Gamers are so opposed to change!

solypsist

01-10-2001, 12:30

Quote STW is *certainly* not going to turn into another Starcraft or AoK just because an expansion pack introduces a Kensai unit. STW will never be Starcraft or AoK, because the entire game has taken a completely different standpoint from the very start.[/QUOTE]

I dunno about that. If the expansion set's new units of dubious origin takes off, EA might feel compelled to develop more along the lines of fantasy. To the people who say all this complaing doesn't accomplish anything since what's done is done, I must point out that criticizing does make a difference, maybe not in the current release, but in future releases since someone is bound to notice and mention what "the people" have said about certain features. Even if it never gets past the discussion or planning, player reaction does play a roll (I hate to keep mentioning Zeus, but it is a development on Pharaoh, which is a development on Ceasar 3, etc. all of which tweaked player suggestion from one game to the next.)

Tell EA we don't like or we prefer something, and sometimes if may pay off in the next game.

Didz

01-10-2001, 19:53

I find these new units a bit worrying.

Is Shogun finally giving in to the Star Craft and Tiberium Sun lobby for super-units?

What about 'peasant miners' and 'Ninja suicide bombers':-)

What historical justification is there for them to be introduced into the game?

Dark Phoenix

01-10-2001, 20:05

Are they going to bring in super weapons as well. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

You cannot judge this until it is actually released or there is a demo we could all be worrying about nothing.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Hirosito

01-11-2001, 04:00

i'd like to stress that there are 2 units we do not even know about!
Therefore please do not forget a principle that CA has managed well: scissor-paper-stone!!

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

Slyspy

01-11-2001, 04:21

I too have my doubts about the validity of the kensai and units of ninja. But if they are well implemented within the existing games structure and so do not upset the unit balance then they will be an interesting addition.

It is possible to be too anal about historical accuracy in what is after all a computer game. As noted above we already have huge armies of monks which are as historically inaccurate as you can get.

Although monks can have far too much power on the battlefield, they are not a super unit: they can be beaten. The same will hopefully apply to the new units.

I would still like to see a fantasy setting using the STW engine, then the designers could include all the fantasy units that they want.

By the way, does anyone know what the Korean levy troops will be like? I thought ashigaru but better at attacking maybe?

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

hach

01-11-2001, 04:23

i,m really worried.
it was bad enough that they added the mongol element'as i posted in that forum'but this is getting ridiculous.

as an expert in japanese samurai history this is bullshit and taking the game away from it's pure and serious origins and adding fantasy figures.certainly some of the units just now are inaccurate'but you can believe in them.

i could accept these new figures on the strategy map'but not on the battlefield.

what next??
jediknights??
the contestants of big brother??
streakers??(for non uk people'naked peeps who run across famous sporting event)

i don't want this.
i just want the patch 1.13 asap

hach

Ii Naomasa

01-11-2001, 05:12

While I have been critical of the new units' validity and feasibility, I will not as yet decry Shogun as turning into a Starcraft clone. It's too early to tell and CA/DT did a wonderful job with turning all the historical inaccuracies of the first game into an enjoyable game for both those who know of the period (if we are willing to not be too stringent) and for those who have only known samurai through comics and movies.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss and complain about our perceived notions of these units. Such is good for the sake of the Shogun community. Hopefully (especially in threads like this where a CA/DT representative started it) the designers check in here frequently and gauge our opinions. They will hopefully recognize the die hard fans' desires and while they can't think solely of us, they will hopefully consider such with weight.

Shogun has never been about complete historical accuracy. Ask anyone who has put interest into the subject (especially before Shogun came out) and they could ramble on and on about inaccuracies. But little of such truly affected our enjoyment. for example, people play with ashigaru-less armies (historically incredibly inaccurate), with monk-laden armies, and with modern small unit tactics. The inaccuracies that allow such don't hamper the game. While I cheer everytime the CA/DT guys DID try to stay historically accurate, I'm happier the game is as enjoyable as it is because of concessions they made. It's quite possible they'll do it again with this add on (even if most of us would've preferred a most historically accurate add-on that perhaps dealth with the Sengoku-period event of invading Korea).

So argue about the potential negatives about units, but try to avoid blasting the product as a whole until we learn more. Should it become a Starcraft-esque game, then we have the choice not to buy it. My only regret in all the die-hards not purchasing the upgrade/gold version is that EA will probably see it as a loss of enthusiasm for the topic, rather than a mistake in angle chosen.

Anssi Hakkinen

01-11-2001, 06:34

Originally posted by hach:
Quote i,m really worried.
it was bad enough that they added the mongol element'as i posted in that forum'but this is getting ridiculous.

as an expert in japanese samurai history this is bullshit and taking the game away from it's pure and serious origins and adding fantasy figures.certainly some of the units just now are inaccurate'but you can believe in them.[/QUOTE]You only need to refer me to the thread in question, but I'd like to know what your problem with the Mongols is. It isn't as if their presence was historically inaccurate...

And the debate about historical accuracy is getting out of hand *again*. I think we've all let the devs know we want STW to be a historical game, not another Kessen. Beyond that, the fact remains that the add-on is feature complete and will be published. Of course, you're free to not to buy it because it's a small step to a direction you dislike, but that's not particularly constructive behavior. And, eh, what Naomasa-sama said http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]

Tachikaze

01-11-2001, 08:08

Personally, when I play Shogun I don't expect an exact re-enactment of 16th Century Japan. I don't mind the historical inaccuracies for the sake of better gameplay. The real world is imbalanced. Teppo were "imbalanced" in real history because an army of well-trained gunners using ranked firing could destroy a traditional army. History is full of examples of advanced weapons superceding older ones and creating imbalances. Games like this one have safeguards to prevent that for playability.

The difference between Warrior Monks and the descriptions I've heard of the Battlefield Ninja and Master Swordsman is a matter of tactical unit warfare. I want to reproduce classical Japanese warfare with standard troop units. A unit of warrior monks is possible in the real world. I see nothing unrealistic about well-trained, fanatical, armorless warriors with sheets on their heads making up a military unit. It happened with the sohei in Japan at various times in history, even if it wasn't an influential part of the Sengoku Jidai. I don't even care that the sohei were not as effective as samurai in combat. CA needed a super unit, and they created one. That's fine. I think Warrior Monks are fun.

The sohei were influential historical warriors. But in all the serious history of Japan I've read, I haven't come across ninja playing a big role, especially in the battlefield. They may have knocked off Uesugi Kenshin and some other important leaders, but so did assassins in Europe. I don't see a "battlefield assassin" in AoK.

I think a master swordsman sounds fun. I'm just not interested in such a thing in this particular game. I bought this game to test my tactical battlefield prowess against my peers using universal troop types (spearmen, archers, cavalry).

I would like to see a game that is centered on Japan of the Gempei War era or earlier. That would be more appropriate for a touch of fantasy and legendary heros like Bunkei, Yoshitsune, and that guy who cut incoming arrows with his naginata (whatever his name was). Reproducing legendary warfare would be fun. But leave that to another game.

hach

01-11-2001, 08:54

anssi

th mongols were all gone by the end of the 14th century.they had either changed their names and became diferent tribes or emperors of china or just gone.

shogun is set in 1530's onwards.
at least 130 years later.also the samurai of the mongol period were nothing like the samurai of the sengoku jidai.the only time the mongols came near japan was late 13the century which is 300 years earlier.
if this is what you want then lets add some us marines as they would have came to japan 400 years later.

if anything shogun should be more accurate and be updated as such and not just have things added for gameplay no matter how good it sounds.

i want my shogun set in the time period and to at least seem to be correct.
now if they were to do a korean invasion add on'then i could agree because this did happen in the time period.

hach

Dark Phoenix

01-11-2001, 09:17

Hach the expansion is set in the 1200's not at the end of STW.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

UglyJun

01-11-2001, 11:26

Hideyasu was the second son of Ieyasu. He was brought up under the supervision of Toyotomi Hideysohi and accompanied him on the Kyushu Campaign. Hideyasu was adopted into the Yûki clan in 1590, and inherited a 100,000-koku fief in Shimosa from his adoptive father Harumoto. During the Sekigahara Campaign (1600), Hideyasu provided valuable assistance in the containment of Uesugi Kagekatsu and was afterwards transferred to a 750,000-koku fief in Echizen (Kita no sho). He was also acting as the keeper of Fushimi castle when he died in 1607, and some have suggested his affinity for the Toyotomi house in which he had been raised contributed to his untimely death.

Hanzo was the son of Hattori Yasunaga of Iga Province. He fought in a number of Tokugawa Ieyasu's battles and was one of the men tasked with assisting Tokugawa Nobuyasu commit suicide in 1579 - a task he proved unable to carry out due to his regard for the latter. He had inherited ties with the warriors of Iga and immediatly following the death of Nobunaga was able to use these connections to lead Tokugawa Ieyasu safely back to Mikawa. Hanzo is famous as a leader of 'ninja' and following the Tokugawa move to the Kanto in 1590 recieved the rank of Yoriki and led a 200-man unit of Iga warriors who formed the foundation of the Edo Castle guard. He was succeded by his son Iwami no kami Masanori, who would die fighting the defenders of Osaka Castle in 1615.

Naomasa was born in the Inasa district of Tôtômi province, the only son of Ii Naochika (an Imagawa retainer executed in 1562). He entered the service of Tokuagwa Ieyasu around 1578, and quickly distiguished himself as a brave fighter. He commanded 3,000 men at the Battle of Nagakute and did great damage to the ikeda troops he faced with gunnery fire. Following the Tokugawa transfer to the Kanto in 1590, Naomasa was given Minowa Castle in Kôzuke province, worth 12,000 koku. At the start of the Sekigahara Campaign, he participated in the attack on Gifu Castle and at the actual Battle of Sekigahara commanded 3,600 men. In the battle he acted as an escort to Ieyasu's son Tadayoshi but managed to draw first blood, outpacing the troops of Fukushima Masanori and attacking Ukita Hideie's contingent. At the end of the battle he was shot and wounded by a Shimazu sniper.

Ujisuke was the eldest son of Ogasawara Mimasaka no kami Ujikiyo (1529-1569) and inherited his domains in 1569. He initially served the Tokugawa and fought at the Battle of Anegawa (1570). in 1574 he was besieged in Takatenjin Castle by Takeda Katsuyori, and to the shock of his family (serving elsewhere in the Tokugawa domain) he surrendered, afterwards being given a fief at Omosu in Suruga Province. After the fall of the Takeda he fled to the Hôjô domain. He was assasinated after the fall of the Hôjô in 1590, and went down in family history as a disgrace

this r 3 historical examples of ninja or diff. units taking care of very high ranked geanrals and these r only Tokugawa
genaral's who have fallen!!!

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Ii's 'Red Devils' ***fierce as fire as silent like the forest as fast as the wind *** The Chain Clan*** LinkRedDevil

[This message has been edited by Jun Tokugawa (edited 01-11-2001).]

TosaInu

01-11-2001, 13:40

Hello,

Dark, I remember a screenshot with a musketunit, how could this be in 1200?

I agree with hach. There are plenty other things to improve, we don't need these new units.

Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu.

solypsist

01-11-2001, 13:48

so, just what does this mean, exactly?

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

FearOrBeSori

01-11-2001, 15:12

Ok first of all I basically feel that the new units won't be a bad thing as long as CA play balances them correctly. Many of you say that these new units will take away from the historical basis of the game but I say what's the point of saying that? This is a game of what if's. You start a campaign and decide what if I had been in charge of the Oda/Uesugi/whatever clan. How would I have conquered all of Japan? Starting a campaign is taking a journey into fantasy. If u want purely historical u can play historical battles. True the units may not be exactly like they were in the real battles but in general some of those battles were so big that the engine could even handle the numbers. Lets face it the historical battle scenerios are as close to historical as you are goin to get out of the game. The single player campaign is fantasy where u can decide how u would conquer Japan with the resources availible to you. If u wanted to you could use armies of mainly ashi; it is ur right to play the game as historical as you want it to be. Hey the single player campaign isn't perfect but I still think they did a pretty good job unitwise. If u don't like the idea of these new units then don't use them when you play. As long as the units are play balanced well you will see that most players will use them just to add more variation and basically more fun to their games. We've all been playing this game far longer than most and don't tell me that it isn't getting a lil boring to u. For God's sake online play is just plain unhistorical. It is only tactical battles and therefore it is only about tactics almost nothing about history. It might be cool if u could play historical scenerios online but in the end the battle will boil down to tactics again. History might make it harder to win with one side but its still all about tactics. If all we could do is play historical battles online then we would get bored with online play pretty quickly. I still think that some of my suggestions over the abilites of battle field ninja (under the small things, to make it more nice thread) would be the best way to implement ninja on the battlefield without making it into an uberunit. It kinda doesn't make sense that ninja can hide on open ground it makes much more sense if there are almost invisible in forests. But like i said as long as they play balance which they seem to have done well b4. Oh yea a note on the kensai thing. Not sure if y'all have noticed this but if u ever assualt a castle and ended up have one unit fighting out against the last lone man u'll notice that only three men of ur unit are fighting that lone man at the same time. It could make sense therefore in my mind in terms of the battle model that a kensai might be able to take on 1 unit frontally. I just hope they make the unit well play balanced like the fact that it will take the kensai a long friggin time to kill one unit leaving u plenty of time to flank him and kill him. Kensai should be able to be killed by ranged fire none of that hon 15 monk insanity. Anyways all we can do is speculate until get the expansion and make it clear to the developers who are said to read the forums that these units better be play balanced or we will not be happy. Lates - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 01-11-2001).]

The Daimyo

01-11-2001, 16:56

Have a look at the new units by going to my site and downloading the 4 new MPEGS (movies) that have been made available. They're lacking sound but they are pretty.

Have at you!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

www.planettotalwar.com (http://www.planettotalwar.com)

Now, someone tell me why we (Org, PTW, etc...) weren't given these goodies before the other general and commercial game sites were? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

Ahem!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

Dark Phoenix

01-11-2001, 20:46

What I meant was that the expansion mongols campaign is dring the years 1200 to 1300 somewhere in between there from the screenshot which said 1272 or something like that if I remember properly.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Nelson

01-11-2001, 22:53

I'd like to say a thing or two about unit "balance" and "playablity" from the perspective of a war gamer.

Balance is over-rated IMO. A given tactical unit or weapon system had certain characteristics. Why alter the real deal? A unit's performance need not fly in the face of what we know to be true. The original Shogun is somewhat flawed in this respect but this is hardly an excuse to expand the inaccuracies. An accurate portrayal of a unit is not less playable or less fun or more booring than an inaccurate one and yet I constantly hear about reality getting in the way of a good time. Why is that?

Secondly, "balance" implies that an uber unit is OK so long as a counter uber is included. So we gradually evolve from a Japanese island to Fantasy Island.

If Shogun has become booring it's time to move on to another game for a while, isn't it? That's what I do. A few weeks later I return when the game is great as Shogun is. Expecting the game to get juiced up and pumped with new soldier sprites with astounding capacities could wreck the game for many people.

Regarding the sword saint or whatever, well, a few soldiers can indeed hold off enemy units for a while already. That's great and it works now! It's also why we don't need super swordsmen! They are already in our armies! The difference is that you can't order one individual to try a stunt like fighting a whole army which I doubt any taisho actually did or would do. "I have 300 men in reserve my good man, but I want you to hold the bridge alone!". Yea, right. Currently you can send just one unit into an impossible situation and wait for the heroes to appear. Don't you think that's how these legends really began?

Of course the campaign is fantasy in a sense. But making decisions in a game that differ from what happened historically is a far cry from using units or capacities unavailable to contemporary daimyo. A Takeda player relying on infantry exclusively is not the same as a Takeda player exploiting battlefield ninja and sword saints. Shingen could have done the former. No one could have done the latter.

As I said, I'm a war gamer. Any game is a contest. A war game is a contest about real war within real parameters. Not everyone wants or likes war games very much. Never the less the wargame elements of the Shogun:Total War game system are, IMO, the reasons it is successful. Alter the accurate feel of the game too much and before long it won't be the great game it is now.

hach

01-12-2001, 01:25

dark

in the 12th centure the samurai was a mounted warrior.
his armour was much more elaborate than in the sengoku jidai and he was not part of a unit as in this game.
he also preferred to fight with the bow and not the sword and was a bit like a tank.
he would be followed by several servant footsoldiers who would attend their masters wishes'his horse and help him in battle with naginata if he was forced of his horse or under attack.
also there will be no firearms then so no more gun units.

my point is either we play this new game in the 13th or 16th century.one way or another somethings got to give or be changed radically.

if it ain't broke why fix it.
just sellotape it a little(patch it)

all i really want is an online campaign for single players(i'm an independant and not in a clan)with the units currently available.

hach

Anssi Hakkinen

01-12-2001, 01:26

Hach-san: the Mongol campaign is set in the 13th century, but you can still play the original campaign just as well (better, actually). The screenshots with Musketeers are from a "traditional" campaign set in the 16th century.

However, it appears you can use both Mongols and musks at the same time in Custom Battles and MP. That's a true historical paradox, but then, it's deathmatch just the same...

Nelson: Most people agree that the Kensai and the BNinjas will shake up STW's historical groundwork - but then, in some aspects it doesn't resemble true history now, either. My point in this matter is that adding Kensai and BNinjas isn't a *significant* deviation from STW's general attitude, because both are ahistorical *to some extent*. They have to be. (I hope you understood that, I'm having a Poor English period again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

BTW, thanks to Kurando-sama for transferring this thread and clearing up the rules once again. It benefits everyone on this board.

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"Understood the Sword his meaning, / Understood the hero's question, / And it answered him as follows: / 'Wherefore at thy heart's desire / Should I not thy flesh devour, / And drink up thy blood so evil? / I who guiltless flesh have eaten, / Drank the blood of those who sinned not?'"
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 327-334

Nelson

01-12-2001, 02:40

Anssi, your English has been excellent through out this discussion.

When the expansion comes, I will order it, play it, and likely enjoy most if not all of it.

The Daimyo

01-12-2001, 03:11

Nelson,

Anssi has better written/typed English than most of the U.S. and England's Population combined. It's quite sad that this is so, actually. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I look forward to finding Anssi's replies about topics because it saves me a lot of reading of other under-thought or craptacular attempts at discussion and logic by other people who claim to be from English speaking countries. Not that any of us would be guilty of that or anything... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
He seems to be someone that actually goes out of his way to back up what he talks about with some facts or just all around good thinking.

Hehe... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

Kage

01-16-2001, 16:22

Oh this has been a good read.
So far it seems that things are developing as I was afraid they would (in a bad way).
Its nice to see that some have the same concerns that I do but I don't think most have realized how bad things can really get.
I know there is very little info available yet but as long as you're speculating, any thoughts on the new training buildings etc (there sure were alot of high honor units on that battlefield in those screenshots).

And now a word for the developers(if they still read these things).
Dear developers,
I like your game, I really do. It has been obvious for most of us from the begining that the focus of the dev team was on the tactical battles in STW. Well let me tell you now just in case you may have missed it. The tactical battle engine is great, everything seems to work fine, we love it. So if it aint broke why fix it?
Perhaps its time to step back and look at the game as a whole and not just how to make the battles more umm, interesting?

Have a nice day.

Magyar Khan

01-16-2001, 22:33

we can use some toggles in online play when hosting a battle, or at least

hystorical 13th or 16 th century
or free for all

Anssi Hakkinen

01-17-2001, 03:36

Originally posted by Kage-san:
Quote Oh this has been a good read.
So far it seems that things are developing as I was afraid they would (in a bad way).
Its nice to see that some have the same concerns that I do but I don't think most have realized how bad things can really get.[/QUOTE]Which is? A lot of people have complained about STW turning into an AoK clone: as I've previously stated, I don't think this is ever going to happen, and most certainly it's not going to happen with this expansion.

What are you afraid of, Kage-san? It seems to me that the more features they reveal about the pack, the more it seems that the devs are going to do their utmost to address the issues everyone's been complaining about, *while* keeping in mind what STW was originally supposed to be. What more can we ask of them?

Quote I know there is very little info available yet but as long as you're speculating, any thoughts on the new training buildings etc (there sure were alot of high honor units on that battlefield in those screenshots).[/QUOTE]The units in the screenshots also had Legendary Weapons & Legendary Armor. It's almost certain that they were purposefully maxed out. Maybe the shots were from 999999... koku custom battles - that's the easiest way to be able to show off all the new features.

And even though this was addressed to the devs:
Quote It has been obvious for most of us from the begining that the focus of the dev team was on the tactical battles in STW. Well let me tell you now just in case you may have missed it. The tactical battle engine is great, everything seems to work fine, we love it. So if it aint broke why fix it?[/QUOTE]From another point of view, maybe the developers are just maintaining their focus. After all, STW is never going to become another Civilization, and most of us never expected that from it. Frankly, I've been surprised by the amount of strategic level enchancements that have been promised for the add-on. They give us numerous interface tweaks, they give us new structures, they give us the option to bribe armies, they give us a whole new campaign game - considering that the STW strategic campaign exists (almost) solely to provide a purpose for the tactical battles, this is pretty well.

Sure would like to see more of those diplomacy options, though.

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"Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, / With the very bluest stockings, / On the ground the haft set firmly, / On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, / Turned the point against his bosom, / And upon the point he threw him, / Thus he found the death he sought for, / Cast himself into destruction."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 335-342

Kage

01-18-2001, 16:18

Well Anssi, what I'm afraid of is this.
A sword saint unit marching across the field under direct fire from 60 archers without a scratch and proceeding to demonstrate his one man buzzsaw act while routing the archers and yelling "next".
or
Paying 400 or 600 or 1000 koku for a sword saint unit and marching him across the field only to become a pin-cushon for 60 archers.
If you use 120 man units its twice as silly.
IMO the sword saint would have made a better strategic unit improving the qualitiy of the troops produced from a province where he is located.
How about Ninja units that appear out of thin air (because they hide so good) and wipe out whole units or important targets like leader units.
or
Ninja units that appear out of thin air and attempt to wipe out whole units but really just get slaughtered because Ninja in a stand up fight in the daylight just don't seem that scary.
All the focus/hype is on these new units.
So, what about the other stuff?
Hey the editors sound great, I sure hope I an turn off the new unitsand buildings if I don't like them.
With the release (about damn time) of the online campaign game how about some info on how the battles will work or what kind of improved troop management" or other strategic features we can expect (I admit I had not heard anything about bribing armies prior to your mention of it).
To me STW has always seemed like a game that was almost finished but was rushed out the door with the idea that it would be finished later. The area that seems most unfinished or could use the most fine tuning is the strategic side.
So I guess what I'm really afraid of is that there will always be one more new unit to be added and the stategic side will never get fine tuned or the features it deserves.
I really do like this game, thats why I'm still playing it.
Cable modem comming soon.
Have a nice day.

[This message has been edited by Kage (edited 01-18-2001).]

Anssi Hakkinen

01-18-2001, 19:58

Well, the new units have certainly been hyped: I admit to being guilty to this, too, but they just seem to be the thing that rouses most opinions, for and against. The add-on pack will have dozens of new features, and, I gather, most of them are just so good they don't need discussion, because no one in his/her right mind would oppose them. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm currently too exhausted with that subject to fight about the new units, but I say this: Wait and see. I have no doubt that the Kensai and BNinjas will take some getting used to, but I also have little doubt that we will eventually regard them as integral a part of STW as we do WM - even though all those units are a departure from STW's main standpoint. Give the devs a chance.

As far as the new strategic features are concerned, many have been promised (in fact, they may outnumber the new tactical features soon) : there hasn't been as much discussion, that's all. That bribery thing derives from a review by PC Zone UK (http://www.pczone.co.uk/Sword_Dojo/previews/vasion/vasion1.html) - you might also want to read the initial CA press release (http://www.totalwar.com/community/mongolpr.htm) if you haven't already. Be sure to also check the "New Preview" thread I just posted: it has new info on the strategy map improvements, too.

There are still no promises to improve the diplomacy, but wait and see...

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"Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, / With the very bluest stockings, / On the ground the haft set firmly, / On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, / Turned the point against his bosom, / And upon the point he threw him, / Thus he found the death he sought for, / Cast himself into destruction."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 335-342