Carrhae, DEAR GOD!

[DemonArchangel]

Ok...

How do I win this battle?

I've been trying for literally MONTHS.

It's impossible...

If I remove the testudo, I get shot apart by the overpowered Horse Archers.

If I don't remove it, I get killed by the Cataphracts...

[Watchman]

Well, Carrhae has to be about the most unqualified massacre of all the historical battles featured. Of course it's going to be godawfully hard to beat. Way back, though, there was a whole thread about the tactics people tried and succeeded with - the bugginess of the testudo often playing a major part in the failures.

[DemonArchangel]

*bump!*

[Someone Stupid]

Hope this helps.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37347

Good ole' google.

[Chelifer]

Hope this helps.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37347

Good ole' google.

Also it helps to mod the battle, so that the legions are already out of testudo in the beginning. I don't mind doing it manually every time, but it often ends up in some number of the cohorts out and the rest still in for a reason I do not understend (I select all of them and press F)

[Sinner]

The first step is to get your cohorts out of testudo, meanwhile the two cavalry are sent to the big hill directly south behind the Roman formation so that they will overlook the cataphract bodyguard that can be found on the small eastern extension of the hill.

The two slowest cohorts to reform on the front line then get volunteered as my sacrifices to slow down the cataphracts. I draw them out into a two-man deep formation while the other cohorts just run like hell for the top of the hill to the south.

As the cataphracts approach the sacrificial cohorts, look to see if any of them are looking to angle past, if so charge them with the sacrifices to ensure they're drawn into battle. The wide formation should otherwise guarantee that you'll draw all the cataphracts into combat.

Meanwhile charge the cavalry down onto the cataphract bodyguards - who're guarding the general of the horse archers - and kill or rout them. Once this is done get your cavalry back up on top of the hill.

Your running cohorts should reach the top of the hill before your cavalry have finished their objective. I group the six cohorts in threes, with two in front and the third positioned behind in support so that they form a little triangular formation. The top of the hill is almost flat and I place the two trios at the rough line where the main downward slope begins, facing the Parthians down below.

By now the cataphracts will have finished with the sacrifices and will slowly be making their way towards the hill. In some battles they're reached my infantry line before my cavalry have finished off the horse archer's general, other times I have had time to get them to the top of the hill. Sometimes I position one cavalry unit at each end of my infantry, set back so that they don't get targeted by arrows, other times I keep them both at the eastern end of the hill.

Generally I've found that the cataphracts don't approach as a group, instead coming up as one or two units. My general aim is to tackle each unit with one of my trios of cohorts, with one of the front two cohorts charging as the cataphracts are about halfway up, the support unit charging a second or so later and then the other front cohort running partway down the hill to flank the cataphracts before charging from the side. I also run the cavalry across, either charging them into the flank or slightly downhill to hit the cataphracts in the rear.

As soon as a cataphract unit routs, I let them run, reforming my cohorts and cavalry back into their start formation as quickly as possible. If one of the frontline cohorts has been badly mauled then I swap them with a supporting cohort. This whole process is repeated until all the cataphracts and their general - oddly with an unarmored bodyguard - have been killed or routed.

At this point I usually find I'm down to my general, 3 or 4 strong cohorts and the rest weakened. It's now that I get my cohorts to return to testudo and hunker down while the horse archers wear themselves out wasting arrows for relatively few kills. The general - and the other cavalry unit if by some miracle they're still alive - needs to be kept back behind the line to avoid being shot at.

Keep a close eye on the horse archers and as soon as you see one beginning to walk towards the hill you know that it's run out of arrows and will charge. Since the slope slows them down, you have enough time to get your cohorts out of testudo and then repeat the same tactics used against the cataphracts. The horse archers generally break quite quickly and sometimes one will rout without even attempting close combat.

As long as you keep control of your cohorts and don't allow them to pursue routers, quickly getting back into testudo, you should have no problems at this point.

[Simetrical]

I happen to be working on the Carrhae battle for RTR right now . . . and trust me when I say it will be impossible to win as the Romans against anyone but an idiot (e.g., the AI). Basically, the horse archers will have a few hundred arrows each, as was true at Carrhae (don't know the exact numbers, but they had a ton). The Romans hoped to outwait them, but the Parthians brought along enough extra arrows that they were able to shoot at the Romans for hours straight. Plus, the arrows punctured scuta, literally pinning legionaries' hands to their shields. Not a battle the Romans could have won. Maybe I'll include a time limit, though, if possible, letting the Romans "win" if Crassus is still alive after a sufficient amount of time (reflecting the fact that the Parthians stopped their attack as night approached).

-Simetrical

[KillerKadugen]

I beat it for the first time ever the other day. I actually went into the battle with no intent to win, but to just show how tough the initial situation was. Typically, I managed to win... No real special tactics...just untestudo, and use the legionaries in back as a countercharge to the cataphracts. What might have helped was my cavalry. I used them to keep the cav archers off of my flanks by charging one unit back and forth to cause them to skirmish away. My infantry managed to route the cataphracts, and pincer moves with my cav and infantry allowed me to kill off a great number of their archers before my cav were destroyed. With only two units of cav archers left, I used the testudo with my remaining legionnaires on the edge of the map, and after the archers ran out of ammo, they routed and I won.

Overall lesson...as long as you aren't trying to win, a victory will almost be certain. :dizzy2:

[SigniferOne]

Except that, Simetrical, Parthians did not win the battle of Carrhae, nor did they kill the Romans with archers. The battle actually ended in a stalemate, despite Parthian presence of cataphracts and nearly unlimited arrows for horse archers, which they peppered the legions for hours. None of their attempts was successful, despite absolutely overwhelming superiority.

The real killing happened the next day, when Crassus made a mistake.

[Simetrical]

The Parthians won Carrhae. Overwhelmingly and incontestably. Granted, Crassus wasn't killed (although his son was), and there were quite a few Romans left alive at the end of the day, but it was still a complete slaughter, with thousands of Roman dead to negligible Parthian casualties (or so we can assume—don't know if there was a precise count of the latter). And I'm not aware of a primary source that gives the count of Parthians, but multiple unsourced secondary sources say that the Romans had great numerical superiority—they just couldn't catch the Parthians with their relatively pitiful cavalry force. Horse archers can mainly be countered by foot archers or slingers, and the Romans just didn't have enough of those. There was no way they could have won.

-Simetrical

[Byzantine Prince]

I think all those battles are too small in number of units. In real life there's a lot more room for maneuvering and strtegy.

[seghillian]

Ok...

How do I win this battle?

I've been trying for literally MONTHS.

It's impossible...

If I remove the testudo, I get shot apart by the overpowered Horse Archers.

If I don't remove it, I get killed by the Cataphracts...


You having any joy with this one DemonArchangel? First I must say thanks for introducing me to this one! It's a great battle which I had not tried till I read this post but it's kept me busy for quite some time.

I manage to beat it on medium now with the following strategy.

1 - Send your general (G) charging at the HA in back of you. Your other heavy Cav (HC) should charge the HA to the left and behind you.

2 - Untestudo. I do this one by one to the Cohorts (C). (Is RTW bugged here? The units don't always respond to the untestudo button and I sometimes need to try several times- the "pause" button is vital here!) Start with the one back left - then the one in front of that. Send these running forwards in a NW direction (imagining the initial facing as North). They are there to flank the Cats when they hit the front line of C. Then the two C on the right. Run the front one NE but just edge the other very slightly towards the nearest HA, They will be used to sandwich that HA when the G gets back. The front 4 C's should be untestoed as late as possible - when the time comes they will alt charge the cats.

3 - Your cavs are chasing their HA's. Don't go too far (the HA's shouldn't reach the hills). Now about turn. G should race to a position just behind the HA to the right of your infantry. The HC races to a similar point behind the nearest HA on the left. Both charge their respective HA's and use one C as the other half of a sandwich to prevent the HA's skirmishing away. Rout them both. Unfortunately, you don't have time to decimate them - let them run - they'll be back - but hopefully to late to save the Parthians.

After that things get less predictable and you need to react to the situation.

Your 4 C's at the front are doing sterling work dying in great numbers "for Rome!" as they say. Use the other 4 to flank the cats from each wing. You must keep a careful eye on all the Infantry. Should any cat rout the C's released must immediately help their buddies to rout the others. Your HC and G may be able to help here, but be careful not to get your cav sandwiched by cats and the remaining HA units. It should be possible to rout 1 more HA before crashing into the cats and relieving the pressure on what's left of your cohorts. Watch carefully for any attempt to charge the rear of your cohorts by the HA's.

The other 2 Parthian cavs will charge (their generals). It depends exactly how you're placed as to how you deal with this. I've normally got my general free to deal with the cats. The other HC are easily beaten with enough free cohorts and any remaining HC. At the end of this process your cohorts are standing on a pile of dead and facing maybe 2 full units of HA and maybe 2 depleted HA. The end process can be long drawn, especially if you don't have much cav left. Testudo the cohorts then send yr cav round behind the HA. charge the HA in rear - wake up your infantry again and charge the front, once again making a tasty Parthian horse sandwich.

As I say, the end game can be a bit drawn out. The main satisfaction is when the 4 cats and 2 generals are on the run. The game is really won at this point although mopping up the remaining HA can be time-consuming.

Let me know how you get on. BTW, has anyone tried this on vh? It must surely be impossible! I tried once and after the first volley from the HA's (which happens before the game itself starts) I found that I had lost 19% of my forces - a figure which continued to rise rapidly!