Creative Assembly Has anyone been to totalwar.com recently [Archive]

Browning

03-17-2005, 09:22

i find it ammusing that the people at CA even bother to check or read peoples opinions at all, since it seems all anyone does is bitch and complain about this bug or this bug or something not being up to your standards. People dont seem to apprecitate that CA atleast makes an effort to please people and to fix their screw ups, i mean they could have just put the patch on the expansion and charged for it but they put it up for free.. You have to understand that they are a business and although they try to please the consumer, they ulitmatley have to make a profit. Im happy with CA, and i am also happy that they have a huge fanbase that fills in voids that Ca doesnt, such as people who work so hard to share Mods with everyone. I mean honestly, get a life and stop worrying about a video game company and obessing over it. I dont know if its sad or scary that some people care so much , i mean i love RTW and try to squeeze it in between playing guitar and school, but damn some people need to find a girlfriend.

Exactly why do you think that fixing one's own mistakes is such an exceptional achievement that should be praised? I thought that it should be a standard, but probably I am just too old for this.

And basically because I have a life, I can only play one hour a day or so, thus the load-game bug is pretty ruining my game experience.

Perhaps when I deliver a faulty product I should tell my boss (and the customers of the enterprise I work for) to just get over it.

AussieGiant

03-17-2005, 12:42

I think it is standard practise for people or companies to take responsibility for their actions. In this case I do believe CA would wish to continue correcting any serious gameplay issues. On the other hard I believe this CA desire is being negatively affected by business deals in place with Activision. That of course is not just Activision responsibility but also those in CA you struck the agreement.

I just hope that CA, in its "NEW" deal with Sega have have taken note of all the undesirable aspects of the previous relationship and removed or modified them for the New relationship. This would include topics such as patch support, development issues, and creative (realisms) areas.

SpencerH

03-17-2005, 13:33

................i mean they could have just put the patch on the expansion and charged for it ......

Any ideas about how few people will pay for an expansion to fix bugs that came with a game they already bought?

Browning

03-17-2005, 13:44

I will not.

This is my first game of the TW series, and if the things go on like they do, it's the last.

steve

03-17-2005, 16:09

I agree that when the game was put out it should have been bug free ... no doubt. Maybe that wasnt a good example, but it seems to me that i do see people on their site bitching and having unrealistic expectations of a video game company. On the other hand i have seen people on there that seem to just search for the slightest imperfection of the game so they can just complain about it. I also do think that CA could have put alot of those fixes in an expasion pack that included many other features and many people would have bought them. One question i have , did MTW have so many issues when it was put out?

Musashi

03-17-2005, 18:39

I was worried about the buyout when I first heard about it, as much as I like Dynasty Warriors type games, I was hoping to see more Total War style games (Including being one of the minority who'd like to see a fantasy Total War...)

However, when it was pointed out that CA has always had a console division, that they've been producing console games the whole time they've been producing the Total War games, and that Total Warrior is a different line with a different team, I'm not worried anymore, and I figure I'll probably like Spartan: Total Warrior, just hope they release it on the only console I own (PS2).

Kraxis

03-17-2005, 18:54

Aetius, there was a lot of complaining. Why do you think that Alex starts out his post trying to be dimplomatic and saying he wants to calm people's fears. Hardly something I would do if there hadn't been anything but praise for the Sega buyout. Alex certainly did settle a lot of fears, and if you would care to read just the first page you will find a number of posts where people have flamed him. So obviously the .com is very much differnt than your view of sellouts and fanboys.

By that last post you just confirmed my suspicion about you. You think that your fears are the only right way and that Sega and console gaming is a bad thing in all. Other opinions (such as those you complain about) is just stupid people with little idea about how the real world revolves.

Browning

03-17-2005, 19:29

I agree that when the game was put out it should have been bug free ... no doubt.
It is close to impossible to release a 100% bug-free software of such a complication grade as a modern PC game. But it is the self-righteous attitude of those developers (as in locking the threads with complaints about The Bug) that disturbs me.

Maybe that wasnt a good example, but it seems to me that i do see people on their site bitching and having unrealistic expectations of a video game company. On the other hand i have seen people on there that seem to just search for the slightest imperfection of the game so they can just complain about it.
You (and Kraxis in his post before this one) are very much right about that. This is why I registered on this forum and not in that one, after a period of lurking around.

I also do think that CA could have put alot of those fixes in an expasion pack that included many other features and many people would have bought them.

If they don't resolve the problem with that Major Bug in a patch before The Expansion, I will not buy the latter one. The Expansion will introduce new bugs (I have no problem with that) and I want to be able to hope that those bugs will get fixed, without me paying for an expasion-to-expansion, and then expasion-to-expasion-to-expansion etc.

Old Celt

03-17-2005, 20:39

CA is behaving in a less than honorable way toward the buyers of RTW. The right thing to do is to fix gamebreaking bugs immediately, and to do it in a free patch release. Imposing censorship on people who complain, no matter how bitterly, over LEGITIMATE issues, just shouldn't happen.

I develop software and know you cannot create perfection on the first shot with a large, sophisticated program. Users know this too, and they will be tolerant to a degree of the first effort. But once you address the issues and say, "We've done all we intend to do", as CA has, you then best better have a nearly perfect product, with no bugs rated as serious or critical. The HA bug is serious, the scarring issue is serious, and the save/reload bug borders on critical for its threat to good gameplay for many users. This is hardly the kind of stuff that should have escaped them, and they need to be accountable for their errors- EVEN IF IT COSTS THEM MONEY TO FIX!!

We aren't going to get fairness though, because CA has sold its corporate soul to the devil, and we will have to pay for fixes in the expansion pack which should have been caught with release 1.1 at the latest. Abusing your customers for short term gain is never a winning business plan.

I admit I'm hooked deeply enough on RTW to pay whatever for the expansion, but I'm disappointed at the lack of both pride in their work and business ethics the management of CA are displaying over this patch fiasco. To the management of CA: If you want to play in the big leagues, then be prepared to play professionally. If you want to be anything more than a "one hit wonder" remember the importance of doing your job right, and then standing by it to correct any errors on your part.

Quietus

03-17-2005, 20:55

Hasn't GilJaysmith already dropped a hint of another patch?

Ah, the .org... "Bless 'em" as we so often say here.

You're entitled to huddle together and worry pointlessly about the future, that doesn't hurt anyone. But you could all do us a favour by limiting negative comments about the game and CA to, "Well, I don't like the sound of that, so I probably won't buy or play it." Anything stronger than that - especially as you haven't seen any game assets as yet - and you're asking for a voodoo slap which you won't forget in a hurry...

On the other hand, if you emanate enough positive vibes, who knows what might happen in the very near future? CA going console??? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44446&page=2&)

:charge:

Old Celt

03-17-2005, 21:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by GilJaysmith
"Ah, the .org... "Bless 'em" as we so often say here.

You're entitled to huddle together and worry pointlessly about the future, that doesn't hurt anyone. But you could all do us a favour by limiting negative comments about the game and CA to, "Well, I don't like the sound of that, so I probably won't buy or play it." Anything stronger than that - especially as you haven't seen any game assets as yet - and you're asking for a voodoo slap which you won't forget in a hurry...

On the other hand, if you emanate enough positive vibes, who knows what might happen in the very near future?"

Talk about your pompous arrogance! Gee, I'm sorry if people complaining about serious bugs in the game (and providing research to back it up) offends you, CA. We haven't seen any game assets yet??? :dizzy2: What do you call RTW release 1.0? How about release 1.1?? Ahh, release 1.2?? Please tell me that quote was taken out of context to something other than a discussion of patching serious flaws which have been proven to exist, and that any QA simpleton could have discovered in a single day of testing!!

They are the ones asking for serious bad karma if they think they can offend and alienate their customers. It seems to me that CA doesn't know the first thing about public relations or how to be thick skinned about criticism. All I would ask is that they fix serious issues in a patch right away, and do serious testing to validate that they work and haven't broken something else. If that's too much for their current staff, I can provide an e-mail address and they can contract me to teach them how to do proper QA.

I took CA's side in the beginning of the patching process, wanting to believe they intended to do the right thing. Two official patches later, most of the people I was arguing with have deserted the game, and probably won't spend another penny on CA software. They might be able to bs your average consumer, but I write code for a living, and know the customer is entitled to better.

And this: "On the other hand, if you emanate enough positive vibes, who knows what might happen in the very near future? "

Hey, I gave $50 worth of positive vibes, and thousands of words in defense of CA's software developer business ethics. My reward has been patches with kindergarten mistakes, and the statement above which amounts to CA telling me that they might help if I get on my knees and kiss their ass enough. That's some nerve, GilJaySmith!! :furious3:

Now that SEGA owns them, perhaps they can rein in at least the outward display of arrogance some CA staff members seem to be prone to. They might try to stop the Nazi style censorship going on at other websites as well. At least SEGA has enough experience and staff to know better than to treat customers the way CA has over legitimate business issues.

steve

03-17-2005, 22:01

I do understand that it cant be 100% bug free first time, and agree that any bugs that have a major effect on game should in time be solved by CA.. I was just refferring to the fact that i see people searching and bitching about bugs you can hardly notice and that really do not effect the game play, just that buyers obession with 100% perfection . As far as the console game goes, i think its a good idea and will perhaps introduce RTW to many new people, i do not like the whole Fantasy part of it, i think that seems rather lame. I would rather see them try to produce games that are more historically accurate and that provide an entertainment and learning experince, rather then Zelda Total war or whatever the hell this game will be about. I think they mentioned dragons? i may offend people but the whole Fantasy thing just seems like something i picture 9 year olds playing because they dont have the patience nor the respect of history to deal with the historical aspect of it. Too bad Decisive Battles is off the air, that was a great show and the reason why i bought RTW.

BeeSting

03-17-2005, 22:02

"On the other hand, if you emanate enough positive vibes, who knows what might happen in the very near future?"

Does that mean we have to polish his knob just to get our hopes up?

What arrogant bast...ard!!!

Old Celt

03-17-2005, 22:18

Steve,

You are right: there are a few people who focus on minutia no one cares about. I don't think any developer should worry about those kinds of people. We have a rule where I work that says: 1 in 100 people is basically a nut job, so, unless complaints run higher than that, we will dismiss them without action at the project leader's discretion.

I'm talking about showstopper bugs like the save game/reload one which can destroy the value to the point of worthlessness for players who can't play long sessions. Serious bugs need attention too, like the HA problem. It's nice that modders have dealt with it, but CA, as the responsible party, should fix it, and do it quickly, WITH GOOD GRACES!!

If I buy a new car, and the key breaks off in the ignition on day one, the dealership doesn't ask me to call a locksmith. THEY take care of it, even if it isn't strictly covered by warranty, because: THAT'S HOW YOU DO BUSINESS. And conversely, if a firm earns my business, they also earn my loyalty for future purchases. RTW has issues which are serious enough to merit developer intervention, and I think the community has every right to complain about not getting it.

BeeSting

03-17-2005, 22:57

Nicely said Old Celt.

the tokai

03-17-2005, 23:07

Seems to me like you people are the arrogant bastards here. Old Celt, i think that in the quote giljay is talking about spartan: total warrior and i agree with him, all you have seen are a few screens and a movie and everyone is already bitching about how console games suck and stuff like that. And Steve, maybe you don't like fantasy games, but some people do. No one is forcing you to buy it. Hell, if rome or medieval would've been 100% historically accurate, you wouldn't see much action. Just accept that some people are different than you.

And while we're on the subject, i want to congratulate CA with their new deal with Sega and wish them the best of luck with their console game.

Kraxis

03-17-2005, 23:31

Now Old Celt I would like for you to click the little link at the bottom of Quietus' post. There you will see the thread in which the post of Gil was made.

In said thread people went nuts... Only hours after the released news. How could people know anything at that time?!?!? There wasn't even any screenshots or movies at that time.

I think you owe the man an apology, and please settle down a bit. It is like you couldn't fathom that people here would actually rave their own heads off and that that was in fact what Gil was responding to. Please stop taking such things personal... At least that is how your posts came off to me.

BeeSting

03-17-2005, 23:41

I think Celt is referring to the many bugs in this game and CA's apparent abandonment of its further fixes.

Musashi

03-17-2005, 23:44

You know, I understand the idea that developers should produce games free of bugs and patch any that are buggy no matter what... But seriously, unless you've not bought any games in the past couple years, do you actually expect that to happen?

You can compare it to a car that won't run, but the fact is that the standards the car industry holds itself to and the standards that the game industry holds itself to are very, very different beasts.

I'd say the last 5-10 games I bought, major releases from large companies all, were buggy and never got fixed, and we're talking crash bugs here.

So to me it's just par for the course.

hrvojej

03-17-2005, 23:45

Why is this argument even here? How and where people post is their own individual matter. And in the end, we'll all pass the judgement with our wallets the next time around.

BeeSting

03-17-2005, 23:48

Had CA seriously expressed any concerns for RTW bugs, would we have had the kind of negativities on the console thread? Instead, the impression I get is that they continue to play us down with no sign of any concerns over bugs that plague this game.

BeeSting

03-17-2005, 23:53

So should we beg, or better yet, play it off as nothing is wrong so we could please the demigods of CA enough to have them release another patch, for free?

SpencerH

03-18-2005, 00:53

Pode

03-18-2005, 03:55

I am so bloody tired of hearing about how it's impossible to have release software that's bug free. I work in unmanned aircraft design. The budget for a lot of my projects is comparable to the development budget for a medium game, let alone the blockbuster everyone expected RTW to be, and I have to include the hardware design and fab cost too. Over two decades, yeah, we've lost our share of prototype birds to software glitches, mistakes happen. But you bet your ass by the time it leaves my shop it damn well works like a charm for 5 or 6 times the design life of the airframe without a software crash. Manned aviation has been writing 100% bug free software using V&V autocoders for 20 years. Fly by wire doesn't mean the pilot pulls on a bunch of strings, you know.
But the stakes are different, games don't kill people if they mess up. Fine, but the dollar cost is far from trivial and that can get you fired just as fast. More important, it's not like bug free gaming doesn't happen. When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.

tai4ji2x

03-18-2005, 05:40

well, consoles are standardized equipment, so they don't also have to test for driver/hardware incompatibilities, etc. i bet a lot of the time for testing goes to compatibility issues alone.

i have no problem with slightly or even very buggy game software - as long as there is a commitment to support it afterwards, which CA seems unwilling/unable to do for whatever reasons, legitimate or not.

Aetius the Last Roman

03-18-2005, 08:16

When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.
Hail to Pode,
great point.

Browning

03-18-2005, 09:09

You know, I understand the idea that developers should produce games free of bugs and patch any that are buggy no matter what... But seriously, unless you've not bought any games in the past couple years, do you actually expect that to happen?

You know, I happen to have bought some games with real support. Europa Universalis II being a good example of a cooperation between the devs and the players.

You can compare it to a car that won't run, but the fact is that the standards the car industry holds itself to and the standards that the game industry holds itself to are very, very different beasts.

Now whose fault is this?

HarunTaiwan

03-18-2005, 09:29

The lesson to me is this:

WAIT THREE MONTHS AFTER IT'S RELEASED BEFORE PURCHASE.

Hey, if we all did this the beancounters might get the message.

Browning

03-18-2005, 10:02

Just look at the bottom of the page 5 of the Loadgame-bug in the .com. It is terrifying.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=23486.topic&start=81&stop=100

player1

03-18-2005, 10:37

The thing is that strategy games are usually type of game that are more prone to bugs, or in which bugs are bigger showstoppers (then some texture collion in FPS).

There are so many formualas involved in the game, as well as in AI routine.

Now the problem with RtW is publisher, since they fund the patches.

Usually, in gaming industry things work like this:

If game is bad, give very few patches (if any). Why lose even more money on failure.

If game is good give more patches. It's worth fixing some bugs, and will help if we ever want to relase sequel.

If game is very good give expansions and more and more patches. Great games have big fan base. Only fans buy expansions, not casual gamers. Fans are usually more touchy on bugs then casual players. Bugs fixed in patches will carry out for expansion too, so you effectively already work for expansion when fixing the bugs for original.

Unfortunatly, that's the thing that Activision doesn't understand.

In contrast, you could look at Neverwinter Nights or Civilization 3, that got lots of expansions and patches. They are funded by Atari (foremely known as Infogrames).

Of course, in case of games that flopped, Atari is ruthless too. Look at Temple of Elemental Evil or Master of Orion 3. Still, even Atari doesn't realize that some games floped because of bugs, and if fixed would be successful. But, that's for another discussion.

Anyway, Rome: Total War is successful game, and as such, should deserve patching, both from gamer and commercial view.

RJV

03-18-2005, 13:46

@Old Celt,

Re your 'pompous arrogance' statement. Don't you think you're going a tad over the top here? Can you not take the comment in the spirit in which it was undoubtedly intended, ie a joke? GJS has consistently posted here (when he doesn't have to) to add bits of info when useful and when allowed (and I seem to remeber an occasion where he wasn't allowed but posted anyway).

Any road up, my point being 'lighten up a little'. Don't go off in a tantrum about pompous arrogance - this is the internet, people post comments and people all interpret those comments differently. From your other posts it's obvious you're old enough and ugly enough (joke) to a) see through the bs, and b) take things with a pinch of salt.

Cheers,

Rob

Old Celt

03-18-2005, 14:50

I did ask if the "pompous arrogant" remarks were taken out of a different context. And some of you have shown me that they were...However, that still doesn't make it acceptable to speak to your customers in that way, even if those customers are being totally unreasonable.

I remember sitting in a room with 18 other developers for a multi million dollar project and the customer, who was extremely unreasonable. This customer targeted the lead developer and went into a screaming tirade which included a fusilade of the most vile language you could ever imagine. This went on for nearly an hour and I really thought the guy was going to stroke out. Finally he was exhausted, and no one from our team had gotten a chance to speak. He said, "Well, I want to know what you have to say!" We were all furious. Our lead dev looked at him, and smiled like an angel and said very softly: "I am taking my team to lunch now, and we will discuss a response to your concerns." That was the most fantastic display of customer service I've ever seen. Despite incredible, unfair, vile heaping abuse, this dev kept his head on straight and remembered that the customer is king. The customer is always right.

Now, if other devs can stand the heat, CA's devs can too. If I can do a better job finding and zapping bugs, I feel fully justified to demand that level of service from other professionals. Yes I am a bit passionate about this subject, but I strive to be fair in how I analyze. As I said, in the beginning, I was defending CA, believing they would do the right thing because they know what is proper. My comments are not in reference to the console game in any way. I'm strictly speaking about the status of RTW and patch policy.

I just want the same respect from CA and attention to problems, that I give my software customers every day. Is that really asking too much?

Ulfang

03-18-2005, 16:22

Hail to Pode,
great point.

Lets not forget that Console's aren't exactly brimming with Strategy games which are generally the sort of games you are needing patches for. Since when do you get a patch for an arcade game? lol.

I'm not happy about this Sega takeover and it does look like its a move aimed at making Console strategy games with ooo arrr great combo moves ... bam .. splat... I'm Spartan Totally Kick ass Awsome Warrior Dude!
I find this very worrying. Admittedly its a bit early to comment as we haven't seen anything of the game yet other than the blurb but the sound of it depresses me! Sounds very much like Kingdom Under Fire Crusaders! Fast Action, nice graphics and hack n slash battles. To me this is totally the opposite to what the Total War series was made for! Its a Wargame not a mix of Arcade Action and Strategy! Infact i'm off to .com now to moan lol

At least we still have the org :)

Calmarac

03-18-2005, 16:32

Good story there Old Celt. I`ve seen you defending CA here from time to time ~;) and it`s a sign to CA that things have gone badly wrong when even a determined optimist such as yourself has finally run out of hope.

@ steve - yes we know about the knitpickers you find in every game forum. However, we`re concerned here with major game-breaking bugs still being present after 6 months and two official patches, with no sign of another or any word AT ALL from the developers.

@ Browning - that was me at the bottom of page 5 in the Loadgame bug thread. I`d contacted Activision support on the advice of another poster. I reported the bug and said I`d contacted them as there had been no word at all on the Official Forum. Activision just referred me back to the Official Forum. Then the later email saying "problem SOLVED" - as I`d not continued to barrage them with emails...

I`m beginning to wonder if there`ll even be an expansion now, let alone another patch. Expansions often sell to the old core fanbase, many of whom have now given up on this game, series and developer.

Such a sad way for it to fizzle out. I`ve loved this series since STW - even still have the original MB boardgame Shogun which started it all.

Repeating myself from `over there`

In complete contrast - my preorder of Silent Hunter 3 arrived on Wednesday. It had teething trouble bugs as we`d expect of any game nowadays. They posted the first patch for it, fixing a dozen or so buglets, yesterday!! I think it hits the shops tomorrow. Oh, and they`d held up release for six months to add a dynamic campaign specifically as it had been demanded by the fanbase. It`s called customer care CA, in case you`ve forgotten.

And guess what - it`s technically and historically accurate, has a decent working AI, a proper dynamic campaign - and it remembers what it was doing between saves.

And this a first game from a Romanian comany who love what they do and communicate properly with their market, especially by listening and acting on what they hear.

hrvojej

03-18-2005, 17:30

... and it remembers what it was doing between saves.
You've gotta be kiddin'...

~;)

Zatoichi

03-18-2005, 17:52

Has another of my posts disappeared? It included a witty analogy about monkeys throwing fruit at a smiling man in a suit. If anyone sees it maybe they could let me know where it is. That way I'll know that I dont have to book myself in to the 'happy house' for some rest.

The disappearance before this one (if it happened) was in the particular thread referenced by Kraxis above (definitely a good read). I know that Kukrikhan made that one disappear so I'm not worried about early-onset alzheimers with that one. Its a pity that my pithy remarks were missed though. As with Old Celt, I too have problems with condescending comments made by a certain CA employee. The fact that they were in response to the rabid ravings of disgruntled youth is irrelevant. Either you have a forum for discussion (good and bad) or you dont.

PS I'm saving this one so that I dont become confused as to whether I indeed wrote it (in case it too vanishes).

Ha ha. Yes, you posted the monkey thing in a thread I started about Sega taking over CA (it dropped off the radar when it approached 3 pages). Oh well. Can I just say I like reading all this venting? Does that make me a bad person? Even if I can't agree with everyones' interesting and informed opinions, it's still jolly good fun.

For the sake of your sanity SpencerH, here's a link to that thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44665

Intrepid Sidekick

03-18-2005, 18:35

Will there be an expansion?

Why wouldnt there be one?
Dont expect me to tell you what it is though. ~:)

Will we continue making "Total War" games?

Of course.
Why would we be so stupid as to knock a good thing on the head? ~:confused:
As above, don't expect me to tell you what the next version will be.
Just take it from us that it will be great and it will knock any competition in to a hat. ~:cool:

Do we care about the quality of our games?

Yes. Deeply.
I can't think of any other reason for the amount of time and work we put in to producing our games.
We would all rather make great games than work in a dull 9-5 office or produce "run of the mill clones".
I, as do many here, smile ruefully when certain people suggest we don't care or that monkey typists could do better. ~:confused: Perhaps this comes about from a misunderstanding of just how many and how complex the mechanisms we put in place are, to get the game to a playable state, let alone the polished state we like to aim for.
As we live in a real world, we have to deal with some limitations in terms of money and manpower and thus also in terms of time. The result is that we can miss stuff or get it wrong :embarassed: And for this we are very sorry.

So before you put the boot in any more, pause, take a breath, and think about it.
How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

Dont worry. We wont rest on our laurels. And keep the faith. ~D

Yours sincerely

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff

AussieGiant

03-18-2005, 18:43

Thanks for the input Sidekick.

I do read between your lines though and it says no patch but an expansion before Xmas this year. ~;)

Again thanks for taking the time to jump in.

Browning

03-18-2005, 18:51

And for this (deficiences of the code - Browning) we are very sorry

Dont worry. We wont rest on our laurels. And keep the faith. ~D

Yours sincerely

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff
I daresay this is the answer we were waiting for. Thank you very much.

Captain Fishpants

03-18-2005, 18:51

Sidekick was far nicer than I intended. I apologise for that.

~D

AussieGiant

03-18-2005, 18:56

Sidekick was far nicer than I intended. I apologise for that.

~D
Sidekick...Fishpants....hell you guys are coming out of the wood work all over the place at the moment.

Keep up the good work fellas ~:cheers:

Darius

03-18-2005, 19:06

I can sum up how the .com and the .org are different real quick for you people.

.org

The org is an open discussion forum in which you are free to speak of anything to do with the totalwar game series. So long as you restrain yourself from using profanity, rudeness, personal attacks, and/or sheer idiocy as a way of communication, you will be fine.

.com

The com is an open discussion forum (unless it's about how totalwar has bugs or is against totalwar) in which you are free to speak of anything to do with the total war game series. So long as you restrain yourself from using profanity, rudeness, personal attacks, and/or sheer idiocy (only the moderator killemall is allowed to monopolize on idiocy) as a way of communication (unless the mods decide to randomly close it should they suspect you are a foreign agent sent to undermine their great works), you should be fine (until you are banned for posting a bug report).

BeeSting

03-18-2005, 19:10

What about fixing the problems for RTW? Are we to only hope for a better product in your next release of TW series? You have yet to address the many plaguing issues with your current product. ~:handball:

Old Celt

03-18-2005, 19:36

Thanks for the replies, CA guys.

I want to say that though my criticism of the patch situation is harsh, RTW still remains the best military game I've ever played, and it is my favorite. I will eagerly await the expansion, and buy it regardless of the open bug issues.

I stand by my statements about quality and how I think customers should be treated. Having said that, I do understand that sometimes, management policy just won't allow you to do the right thing you so desperately wish to do. I have left some jobs because of this kind of conflict between what you know is right, and what managers will allow.

Rome Total War is a terrific game. You at CA deserve all the kudos you received, the GOTY status, and the good sales that accompany all that. I'm sure many here on this forum can recall high praise I've given for a job well done in the game concept, design, and particularly the implementation of the morale system which I think is groundbreaking.

I don't wish to "put the boot in" any further. It is painful for me to be critical of other developers, because I know how such criticism can feel when it's directed at me. Please believe me, CA, you have plenty of respect for your capabilities, this matter of bug fixes relates much more to management policy IMHO.

It may be to everyone's best interest if an official communication could be made from CA or Sega to clear up the matter of whether any action will be taken officially to fix the save load bug between now and the presumed expansion. To my thinking, only the save/load bug is a critical problem. Simple mods fix most other bugs that are of any consequence, and most of us could probably accept that.

Again, I wish to thank the CA staff who have responded, and sincerely hope the lines of communication will remain open. None of us would be posting here if we didn't have a deep interest in the game.

BeeSting

03-18-2005, 19:51

Gods have descended from mount Olympus and boy did we all become so humble and meek all of a sudden.

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

SpencerH

03-18-2005, 19:55

For the sake of your sanity SpencerH, here's a link to that thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44665

Thanks for that. At my age its easy to lose track of whats where, especially since these threads have been mixing topics between between the Sega buyout of CA (I'm hopefully positive), Spartan TW (I'm looking forward to more info), and the RTW bug problem (I'm thoroughly pissed off). Sometimes its hard for other readers to know just where anyone stands on these issues so flame wars arise over misunderstandings. We may need little icons to identify what we do and dont support.

SpencerH

03-18-2005, 20:03

So before you put the boot in any more, pause, take a breath, and think about it.

Sorry, I cant resist. I usually avoid (physical) confrontations, but once they start my training (and experience) tells me to finish it.

How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

How many such games am I playing?

0.

The serious bugs need to be fixed.

BeeSting

03-18-2005, 20:07

Here's my little icon per RTW bugs and most importantly its incompetent AI: :rtwno:

But in regards to graphics, the epic scope, and the first of its kind battle engine…. most appropriately: :rtwyes:

nokhor

03-19-2005, 01:22

in defense of GilJay, he can say any 'pompous arrogant' thing he wants as long as it's within the guidelines of the org. why should a patron be limited in what he wants to say just because he works for CA? the org is supposed to be neutral ground. it wasn't created by or funded by CA and i don't see why CA employees should have to be on their best behavior here when others are rude towards them. any CA employee has the right to criticize gamers here, any gamer has the right to criticize about CA employees here, and any gamer has the right to criticize gamers that criticize CA employees here. as long as it all follows the guidelines of the org. freedom of speech. all that being said, i still believe that RTW is a mediocre game, i think CA has jumped the shark and i believe that any future games they make will be less and less entertaining for me. but that is just my opinion.

Quietus

03-19-2005, 03:37

So, are you CA guys refuting patch 1.3? (since you didn't mention it at all and you had all the opportunity to do so). ~:confused: Any quick-fix or patch?

Also, since you're not being specific, CA is doing:

1) an RTW expansion pack
2) a new TW game (same engine).
3) of course, a top secret new game in a brand new engine(???)(that will take years to finish).

Finally, in case you've already forgotten, the Expansion Pack Wishlist (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43152) thread.

:charge:

Productivity

03-19-2005, 03:55

in defense of GilJay, he can say any 'pompous arrogant' thing he wants as long as it's within the guidelines of the org. why should a patron be limited in what he wants to say just because he works for CA? the org is supposed to be neutral ground. it wasn't created by or funded by CA and i don't see why CA employees should have to be on their best behavior here when others are rude towards them. any CA employee has the right to criticize gamers here, any gamer has the right to criticize about CA employees here, and any gamer has the right to criticize gamers that criticize CA employees here. as long as it all follows the guidelines of the org. freedom of speech.

That is true, it's up to CA to decide if they want some who is essentially wearing their uniform, posting that stuff.

Just like your work wouldn't want you to go insulting your customers while using their uniform, I doubt CA would either...

Kraxis

03-19-2005, 04:18

Since they only post here in their free hours and of their own free will, and that they have been given the CA tags by 'us' (meaning the .org) it is to say that they are in fact all the time wearing their uniforms.

player1

03-19-2005, 10:29

It would be just sad not to get 1.21 patch as hotfix for worst problems, if there are no big plans.

Anyway, isn't fixing bugs, in fact, already working in expansion?

Of course, exempt if they already work on unannounced expansion, so it's impractical to patch old code for vanilla game (just speculating).

Browning

03-20-2005, 14:27

The expansion, as a new software version, is designed to include new features. E.g. a new feature would be an ability to (re)name your military units. Or to summon a vampire.

Bugfixes are something different. But usually bugs that are detected (and confirmed as bugs) should be fixed in the new software version. If there will be another, minor software release intended to fixes alone (aka patch), is another story. This is a somehow bigger organisation effort, but no increase software development effort to do so. And from what I read from the CA guys, there will be a patch.

I also understand why they choose to be so little specific. One possible reason is they discovered additional bugs in between and don't want to open a can of worms - complains - now.

player1

03-20-2005, 14:43

There are two types of games then have expansions.

Those that use same basic executable for both expanded and original version of the game.
Exmples: Neverwinter Nights, Warcraft3

The benefit of such development is that code changes benefit both expanded and original version of the game. So if you fix bug in expansion, you fixed it basic version too. Such games also tend to have, after expansion is released, patches for both expanded and original version of the code simultaneously.

The other type of the games use different executables for expansion compared to original.
Example: Civilization3

Expansions exe is built from the basics of the original. Such games tend not to have patches for original after expansion is relased. Since original verion code is, in effect, "obsolete" it's not cost effective to patch both original and expansion. Also such games tend not to have patches relased after work on expansion has reached its peak, when significant amount of code it already changed.

Otherwise it would mean tracking two different codes, and that can be very difficult and bug-prone.

demon rob

03-21-2005, 06:53

two CA emails - good to see! What happened to the plan of sticking the CA icon on threads where CA have emailed?

A pity we still havent got any answers we want, Sidekick really just reiterated what Alex has said, except from a CA perspective. We know they will continue, we know they have future plans, and we know they love the game. Its just the questions of the patch and the game direction we really want to know.

ps: totalwar.com, isn't it just there as a filter and here and twc are the real forums. Good to visit for some idle entertainment.

mxlm

03-21-2005, 09:41

Sheesh. Kiddies, take a deep breath, step back, and calm down.

If RTW is really that disappointing to you folks, why on earth are you still browsing these forums? Take a few months off, forget about Rome, come back when you see the expansion on the shelves. Or just forget about Rome indefinitely. Seems as though you'd be saving yourselves a lot of heartache over a game that way. But hey, what do I know?

(No, this isn't a "omgdon'tcomplainun00bs" post)

Catiline

03-21-2005, 14:13

two CA emails - good to see! What happened to the plan of sticking the CA icon on threads where CA have emailed?

I do it when i see them

Turbo

03-24-2005, 22:50

Despite the fact that 1.2 introduced new bugs to the game, CA has no intention of doing any further patches to RTW. That has been made crystal clear on .COM. Wishing it weren't so isn't going to change anything. People need to either accept the game in its admittedly broken condition with a crappy AI or find a different game to play.

CA is not the same company that it used to be. Veterans of the series are not longer strategic to their corporate vision. They are shifting their resources to the console market. Time for us to move on to a different game and different publisher.

player1

03-24-2005, 23:24

I see that "crystal clear" thing on "no patches" way to often.

Does anyone have a real proof.
A link perhaps?

And if there is a quote, is it before 1.2 release or not?

Wishazu

03-25-2005, 00:57

great thread :) i loved the lil dialogue at the end of Intrepid Sidekicks signature. probably the most entertaining and interesting part of this thread. Anyways, if your not satisfied with rome in its vanilla or 1.2 versions or whatever, there are plenty of mods out there, and some superb ones on the way.

AntiochusIII

03-25-2005, 08:11

Hmm...Lets see, we have: 2 Elephants, 3 Archers and a pig. And the persians have... 1 and a 1/2 million men.
Better not light the pig too early Intrepid Sidekick.

Bloodyhell! Where did the Persians get all those 1.5 million men!?! Xerxes must be proud...

Nonetheless, I beg you to be careful. Spare the lives of those pant-wearing fools. Don't let the Elephants kill them all!!! Or else I'll sue you and keep whining for 1.3 patch, 1.4 patch, 1.5 patch, and so on until the expansion comes out...which would not be the end of my whining yet. :devilish:

Okay, I'm not quite interested in this thread that much. Just interested for the celebrities (CA staff) coming here with..er..weird names.
:grin:

P.S. I wonder if he'll ever see this..my bet: no! :blank:

demon rob

03-25-2005, 10:07

It was "crystal clear" they wouldn't fix the 56yo dying kings in viking too.

And no, it has never been said anyware that there is a 2 patch limit, just that there is only 2 patches financed by Activision. And Activision are such a big player in the total war future now aren't they.

Microsoft got into consoles. Does that mean they have taken away all their resources from PCs?

(and the kings wasn't as much a game killer as the load bug).

player1

03-25-2005, 10:14

So anyway, only thing they said is that they "planned" 2 patches.

Attalus

03-25-2005, 10:16

Sidekick was far nicer than I intended. I apologise for that.

~D

LMFAO!!

AntiochusIII

03-25-2005, 10:19

It was "crystal clear" they wouldn't fix the 56yo dying kings in viking too.Very much agreed.

And no, it has never been said anyware that there is a 2 patch limit, just that there is only 2 patches financed by Activision. And Activision are such a big player in the total war future now aren't they.I hope and really wish you're right. I'd like another patch, pleaaasseeeeee(purring in an extremely hopeful way)

Microsoft got into consoles. Does that mean they have taken away all their resources from PCs?There's two fatal points in your claims: Microsoft is a damn big company, and I hate many of their games, except for Age of Empires. ~D Of course, I agree with your point. I'm an official fanboy now.

(and the kings wasn't as much a game killer as the load bug).I know it's sarcasm, but...Yes it is. No...it's worse. Look! King Philip II Augustus of France DON'T deserve to die at 56!!! Neither do Frederick I Barbarossa!

In the meantime I find myself sometimes...deliberately...trying to stop myself from directly/intentionally exploit the save-load bug. ~;p

player1

03-25-2005, 10:23

It's intersting to note that at COM, in cavarly doesn't work thread, some CA officials replied that they checked the issue and confirmend that cavalry charge does work.

Now, would someone look into issues if not planning to do the patch?

Turbo

03-25-2005, 15:00

I see that "crystal clear" thing on "no patches" way to often.

Does anyone have a real proof.
A link perhaps?

And if there is a quote, is it before 1.2 release or not?

Hope springs eternal I guess. I made my statement based on the below link. I don't know how much more specific anyone needs.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm3.showMessage?topicID=6403.topic

ToranagaSama

03-25-2005, 18:15

Will there be an expansion?

How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

[snip]

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff

PMFJI, but I haven't been around in awhile, and I can't resist.

In answer to your question, there are TWO:

1) Shogun: Total War

and

2) Medieval: Total War.

In addition, one must mention the effort of WesW and his MedMod, which frankly is the supreme Total War incarnation.

BTW, regarding "keeping the faith", I believe you may be among the many *Newbies* that RTW has brought forth (including devs), and consequently may not be aware, but there are a goodly number of the Total War faithful who have been "keeiping the faith" behind The Creative Assembly's promise, NOTE: that is a paid my hard earned money for promise, of a Multiplay Campaign.

Keeping the faith? How long has it been? 3, 4 YEARS!
RTW is a royal screwing of the faithful.
Sorry, my *faith* well runneth dry....

Shambles

03-25-2005, 18:25

TW web site Sux lol.
Rome Tw sux lol :)

I dont care what they do any more tell you the truth,
CA arent as good as ea when it coemes to the Tw games, but
EA let me down by closing server so i no longer Buy any of there games after all whos to say All there games wont suffer same fate,

and personaly With the patches so far I hope they Stop playing with things they dont understand :P
still cant complain all day,
Still love shogun,
but I played rome tw again today
(thing still sux compared to shougun )

lol im gonna leave now b4 i start really complaining.
:bow:

Ser Clegane

03-25-2005, 22:23

CA arent as good as ea when it coemes to the Tw games

I'm not sure if you are aware that CA is the developer of all TW games. EA was just the publisher for STW as Activision was for MTW and RTW.

screwtype

03-27-2005, 12:17

I develop software and know you cannot create perfection on the first shot with a large, sophisticated program. Users know this too, and they will be tolerant to a degree of the first effort. But once you address the issues and say, "We've done all we intend to do", as CA has, you then best better have a nearly perfect product, with no bugs rated as serious or critical. The HA bug is serious, the scarring issue is serious, and the save/reload bug borders on critical for its threat to good gameplay for many users. This is hardly the kind of stuff that should have escaped them, and they need to be accountable for their errors- EVEN IF IT COSTS THEM MONEY TO FIX!!

We aren't going to get fairness though, because CA has sold its corporate soul to the devil, and we will have to pay for fixes in the expansion pack which should have been caught with release 1.1 at the latest. Abusing your customers for short term gain is never a winning business plan.

I admit I'm hooked deeply enough on RTW to pay whatever for the expansion, but I'm disappointed at the lack of both pride in their work and business ethics the management of CA are displaying over this patch fiasco. To the management of CA: If you want to play in the big leagues, then be prepared to play professionally. If you want to be anything more than a "one hit wonder" remember the importance of doing your job right, and then standing by it to correct any errors on your part.

Geez, and to think you started off here by slamming everyone who dared to criticize CA. You've come a long way baby. LOL.

But I agree with your comments. The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own. That and the fact he seemed to think the game is great because lots of folks have bought it - it's clear that CA are going to continue with their business strategy of appealing to the lowest common denominator at the expense of realism or anything else which might get in the way of maximum sales. Get ready for "Witches and Warlocks: Total War" people, because it's not far away...

screwtype

03-27-2005, 12:34

More important, it's not like bug free gaming doesn't happen. When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.

True, but then, they charge half as much again for console games.

screwtype

03-27-2005, 13:01

CA is not the same company that it used to be. Veterans of the series are not longer strategic to their corporate vision.

Yes, I'm very much of that impression too. They are pursuing a different vision to that of the grognards and I think lovers of the earlier games are only likely to be further disappointed in future.

They are shifting their resources to the console market.

I don't think that is the case, I just think the TW series is becoming more of a kiddies' mass market exercise itself.

Time for us to move on to a different game and different publisher.

I've already moved on to other things. And I certainly won't be hanging around waiting for the next instalment of TW like I did for Rome. But I will still take note of the next release and the reception it gets in the grognard community.

hrvojej

03-27-2005, 13:57

The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own. That and the fact he seemed to think the game is great because lots of folks have bought it - it's clear that CA are going to continue with their business strategy of appealing to the lowest common denominator at the expense of realism or anything else which might get in the way of a quick buck.

True. This, coupled with the sorry state of this game right now, is what led me to conclude that I will most likely obtain any future games from CA from the bargain bin, if at all.

This forum is still a nice place though, and the only reason I still hang out here sometimes.

Craterus

03-27-2005, 19:42

the forums on this site are really friendly and they're nice to come and "hang out". The Tavern is a cool forum!

Simetrical

03-27-2005, 20:12

The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own.Well, of course CA was the one that decided to make the game mass-market rather than realistic or whatever. No, the only thing I expect Activision is responsible for is the bad support. That's a very big thing, however.

The only design decision I really hold against CA was their failure to release so many modding tools to the public—we had to come up with tools like PAK extractors and CAS editors ourselves, we have to edit the many layers of the campaign map by hand, and so forth. The biggest thing CA left uneditable is the AI—true, it would be much harder to edit than anything yet released, but dedicated and skilled people like Vercingetorix could manage it if they didn't have to make basic tools like animation extractors. Other major annoyances are the hardcoding for the factions and the limitations of the scripting systems.

My future TW purchases will, in large part, probably be contingent on moddability. If Hun Invasion (or whatever the expansion will be) addresses enough of my modding complaints, you can bet I'll be buying it.

-Simetrical

Old Celt

03-28-2005, 14:50

I posted the following last week at the "official" website in response to a thread about the save game bug and the mods squelching any effort to receive a response from CA on what they intend to do about it:

(posted on Totalwar.com, 3/24)

"Continuing to push limits of Mod patience and jabs at CA will only cause this thread to be closed."

Just for the record, so it's clear: do you have an official policy stating no criticism, no matter how valid will be tolerated of the CA work effort, and particularly criticism directed toward the existence of bugs?

I post on several other RTW boards, and this one by far seems the most closed to speech which is tolerated and even encouraged elsewhere. Like many other concerned people, I paid for the product, and when I discover a major flaw in it, expecting an explanation for how the manufacturer will put it right is fair and reasonable.

We have gotten no response from CA, Activision, Sega, or anyone else in an official capacity telling us what the intentions are with regard to this severe bug. Closing threads won't make the problem go away. It sure might make the customers go away. If you (mods for this board) think that meeting valid customer complaints with threats and arrogance are going to help, I think you are sadly mistaken. If this is how you treat your concerned fans, I'd hate to see what you do to try to woo new business. If you want my money in the future, you'd better treat me right!

(end of post)

Of course, all the substance of the post was completely edited out, in true Nazi style, and I was invited to post elsewhere. So I am exercising that option here. All I want is for CA, Sega, or Activision to answer this complaint in a meaningful way. I've never seen this type of customer service, with the exception of a rundown bowling alley. Is it just a culture thing? Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?

HeresiarchQin

03-28-2005, 15:03

Maybe according to the Activision policies CA are not allowed to say anything about bugs and such, especially now, after the second and also the last patch is out. After all, if CA admitted the bug's existance, the official truth of "the game is quite seriously flawed and there will be no more patch" will surely hurt the game's sales in some way. I'm quite positive that not all the guys in CA are idiots or completely blind, at least a few of them must have already tracked down the cause of the bugs we reported so far, and may even have already made some hot-fixes in their hard drive. Unfortunately enough, they cannot afford the consequences which will come if they release those mini-patches, after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P

Maybe it's actually a good thing that they are not allowed to make a 1.3 patch, until the XPack comes out, because more bugs can be reported/fixed during this long time period...well, if they did release the 1.3 patch 2 weeks ago, then today we may be crying out "WE NEED 1.4 TO FIX THE BROKEN CHARGE BONUS!!!"

Turbo

03-28-2005, 15:09

Old Celt

03-28-2005, 15:30

Turbo,

Yes, I think you are quite right. My assumption is we shall just have to pay for this to be fixed (hopefully) in the expansion, maybe in 2007, if history shows any trends :(

I must apologize to you personally, Turbo. I remember some heated debates in which I took CA's side in the past against you. It seems my defense was ill-advised, as doing the right thing is definitely not on the CA/Activision/Sega agenda, with regard to proper support. You were right, I was wrong.

Benny Moore

03-28-2005, 15:57

Just to make this absolutely clear to me, tell me; they banned you?

Oaty

03-28-2005, 16:03

Old Celt,

Welcome to the world of CA customer support or lack thereof. It is amazing to see how completely CA has turned their back on their loyal core customers. I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.

I hate to tell you but in business terms I'm almost sure that means CA actually has more resources. Both in resources and manpower. There programmers/ graphic designers and other categories have downtime wich means pay for no work. With multiple projects this reduces downtime for a group. This makes an employee have a bigger bang for the buck.

As far as being delayed. If they released an exp pack in June the gamers would be paying 30-40bucks for it. If it was released in December they could sell the expansion pack for 30-40 bucks. So doing the math the sooner they sell an exp pack, the sooner they can go onto another project and make more money. The difference in time is the means of the quality of the expansion pack, the more enjoyable the more they secure there future projects.

As far as the bug, be tactful and respectful in the e-mails. As dirty mail will just get deleted but an e-mail that states the problem and your disgust is more likely to be more appealing. Also do'nt request a patch or a response on thier plans from the bug.

The most tactical way I see to do this is spam them in a nice way. First start a thread on the siege bug petition.

Now tell everyone to title thier e-mails

RTW A.I. siege lifting bug

In the text write something like this but tell them to contain the exact words you widh the text to contain

The A.I.'s abilties are greatly reduced since the 1.2 patch and GREATLY reduces the challeng of gameplay

Short simple but gets to the point without implying any demands

What this also does is it does not flood them with various e-mails. Now more than likely all e-mails will get filtered due to the title..... but hopefully counted and will be much easier for them to handle.

Also request that noone sends more than 1 e-mail because they may also record adresses from, do not be a spamming idiot and just send them 1 e-mail as to be as respectable about this as possible.

Old Celt

03-28-2005, 16:49

Qvintvs,

No they did not ban me, they simply said that if I didn't like the way they ran things, I should post on other boards. Since they edited nearly all of the content from my post, it was impossible for anyone reading the edited version to even know what it was about.

@ Oaty:

I have been more respectful of the company, than they have been to me, by far. A simple question of a flawed product and what they intend to do about it deserves the courtesy of a MEANINGFUL response. If nothing can be done because Activision has the football, then just say so!

I know CA staff read the posts here. So, I must reach the conclusion that they tacitly approve of the silent treatment the customers are receiving in response to legitimate queries about what the company intends to do about this most serious of all discovered bugs in their product.

SpencerH

03-28-2005, 16:55

Old Celt,
I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.

This makes no sense. SEGA has stated more than once that they purchased CA in order to move into PC gaming. I believe that to be true since SEGA has no need to buy a company that is making its first console game.

The question of who are now the "core-customers" is a separate issue. In that regard, I've seen no evidence from the comments made by CA employees that the players who played STW and MTW continue to be the "core-customers". CA employees pay lip-service to that idea, but despite the (often abusive) denials, it looks as if RTW (and possibly the next TW game) is targeted toward the much more numerous RTS crowd.

Turbo

03-28-2005, 19:43

SpencerH,

You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.

Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.

Turbo

03-28-2005, 19:52

SpencerH

03-28-2005, 19:59

SpencerH,

You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.

The console has to have been "in the works" for years. It may have been a consideration in SEGA's decision but I believe them when they say they bought CA for the PC market.

Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.

That may be true, and time will tell. I'm hopefully optimistic that SEGA will allow CA the time and resources to actually finish the expansion prior to its release (unlike RTW itself). SEGA may also allow a 3rd patch. If they read whats happening at these sites they may demand one! That may be unlikely, but possible if one considers that SEGA may wish to end the "bad publicity" we generate over the unfinished nature of RTW.

Old Celt

03-28-2005, 20:19

I will only wait so long for Sega/CA to give the courtesy of a reply on the save game/reload bug. If they will not address the issue in a civil way, then I will write some e-mails describing the problem in detail, and how to reproduce it to some contacts I have at "a major pc gaming media outlet". Then, Sega/CA can have the inestimable pleasure of dealing with the attendant loss of credibility and future sales for their product.

The bottom line is: they sold something that was broken to their customers. The right thing to do is to fix any serious or critical bugs immediately, and at no cost to customers, just as Ford will fix my vehicle for free if it is shown to have a manufacturer's defect. It would be unreasonable to demand a fix for every imperfection observed in the game. It is however, perfectly reasonable to expect prompt support for serious and/or critical bugs which have been proven to exist.

Turbo

03-28-2005, 22:42

player1

03-28-2005, 23:05

What I don't like is general trend in gaming industry about patching policy.

Way too many publishers don't care.
And why would they, if just small % of people read forums.

If there was something like "bug police" colum in some computer magazine, where biggest offenders would be listed, I guess that policy would be changed in some time.

EDIT:
Wishful thinking...

Benny Moore

03-28-2005, 23:38

Please do! I will be more than happy to send gaming magazines spa - I mean, long winded - I mean, informative messages about apathetic developers.

Here's to the memory of Looking Glass Studios!

demon rob

03-29-2005, 00:14

after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P

Actually they are a big and rich company - they are now Sega.

Bhruic

03-29-2005, 01:38

I've run into this kind of situation before, with another game. Basically, it became a big game of "pass the buck". No one wanted to take responsibility for things. I ended up doing a lot of patching on the game myself.

The reality of the current situation is likely that CA won't do another patch unless they are funded, and Activision isn't going to fund another patch, especially since they've effectively lost CA. Sad for the end customers, but, then, very few companies actually care about us to begin with.

Bh

screwtype

03-29-2005, 07:19

Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?

I'll probably get flamed for this, but British companies do have some odd ways of doing business.

I recently went to the website of a British coy to buy a product, only to find a message which explained that everyone had gone on holiday for a couple of weeks and I would have to return later. This is not the first time this has happened to me with a Brit coy.

I find it pretty incredible that *everyone* at a company would have to go on holiday at the same time. A small owner-operated business, sure, but not a company with a number of employees. Sheesh, the least they could do was leave someone behind to keep processing orders while the rest were away!

There are also a lot of Brit companies that won't do business with you if you live overseas. I guess they're worried about making more money than they can handle or something.

Puzz3D

03-29-2005, 14:20

Old Celt,

I was wondering what awful thing you said in the .com post that got you chastised and your entire post edited out.

I don't know where the post is, but apparently the SEGA rep said that patching RTW is CA's decision. The problem for CA must be whether or not to take the time out of the schedule to do another patch. CA has always followed a strategy of one major patch per release, and they try to catch all the major bugs in that one patch. However, RTW was released with a huge number of problems, and that overwhelmed the v1.2 patch effort so that some things were not caught such as the loadgame/siege problem which I suspect is just the tip of an iceberg of a problem with savegames.

CA is well aware of the loadgame/siege problem, but I've seen them follow a policy of no comment on outstanding bugs for four years. CA uses the core customer base to help identify bugs, but they don't answer to that base or even have a dialog with it. This is why you are allowed to report a bug at .com, but not allowed to ask if it will be fixed. If CA admits it's not going to be fixed or it has to wait for the add-on to be addressed, that's bad for marketing. Practically all the responses to criticism I see made by CA are damage control to minimize any negative impact on sales.

I can tell you that the Total War customer base that has been around here for four years is decimated. Good graphics has replaced good gameplay as the main selling point which makes gameplay less important in the scheme of things. All the people who I regularly played Total War with online for years have left for other games.

Jambo

03-29-2005, 14:44

Yep Yuuki, pretty much sums up my experience since STW too! :|

Although I would say that both earlier games had the advantage of being smaller and less advanced projects. The bigger and bolder the project, the more likely the occurrence and prevalence of big bad bugs.

I had hoped that with the increasingly bolder projects, CA would lay aside their standard and rather mean 1-2 patch policy per release and adopt a patching policy more befitting the current project's needs. It seems that while the games are evolving at a staggering pace and with an increasing complexity, the level of customer support remains rooted in the past.

Sooner or later even CA will realise that there has to be careful balance maintained between both to be able to sustain a company with a satisfied customer base. Like Yuuki, I know many players of the older Total War titles that haven't yet purchased Rome or have become so disenchanted with the level of customer support for Rome, that the purchase of future TW titles will depend more heavily on the company intentions for post-release support rather than the titles themselves.

The Storyteller

03-29-2005, 16:58

British companies are funny things. I wrote this about British service a couple of years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/students/2003/06/phono.shtml

AussieGiant

03-29-2005, 17:41

Having found this Forum and the other at .COM over 2 years ago, it is clear from observation that the CA guys use the .COM forum as a passive information gathering device.

Any bug comment is a "no win" situation for them.

It is either going to happen or not and that has everything to do with the financial situation and not what the "hard core" board members want.

Old Celt

03-29-2005, 18:04

Well it is expected that companies need and want to make money. But unless you plan only for short term gain, you must build both quality products AND a reputation for good service. That's the reason Sears has done so well with Craftsman tools: they are top quality AND they are guaranteed for life. I personally witnessed an 84 year old man return a Craftsman socket that had split AFTER 62 YEARS OF SERVICE!! Sears didn't make any money on that exchange, but they built their reputation and word got around that they were steadfast behind their products. The result? Much more business because of dependability.

This GOTY business and such will be nothing more than "a flash in the pan" if word gets round that CA won't support their product and fix their obvious screwups. Yeah, it will cost them money, but that's what happens when you make mistakes and go to production that way. The fact is CA now has Sega and all their millions behind them, so there is no longer any excuse to cry poor as a reason to not hot patch the save game problem. Other, lesser companies correctly support their products, CA can do the same.

I think in some regards, the critical acclaim RTW has received from the usual media sources for game reviews is a pyrrhic victory. I would be surprised if any money in profit has actually been made for RTW when you consider how hideously over budget it must have been, given it was over 18 months late to production. Sega just needs to understand that they wouldn't be "throwing good money after bad" to finance an immediate effort to patch the game NOW, and thereby get back in the good graces of hard core players, and repair the damage to CA's reputation in the process.

Lysander

03-29-2005, 18:21

In the “Loadgame-AI bug” thread at the .com, a CA staff member (TorquemadaUK) just commented on this issue. Surprisingly, CA does not even consider it a bug:

“Given that the player has no clue whether the AI plans to assault or starve out the settlement, what this is really saying is some seiges are lifted and some are not. Hence there is not a bug that causes all seiges to be lifted when a savegame is loaded. Sometimes the AI decides it's armies are needed elsewhere and it lifts a seige; sometimes it doesn't, and the seige is maintained - loaded savegame or just new turn.
Of course, as stated, it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with some of the AI decision-making, but that is an entirely separate discussion.”
:dizzy2:

Red Harvest

03-29-2005, 18:33

It was nice of TorquemadaUK to respond, but it is obvious that CA still doesn't get it...they do not even understand the bug. ~:eek:

Epistolary Richard

03-29-2005, 18:39

Open mouth... insert foot... ;)

slackker

03-29-2005, 18:50

this is the entire response:
For each faction, the AI generally makes an assessment each turn of the best use for all the forces it has available (whether a save game has been loaded or not). If it has armies engaged in a seige and it decides that those armies can be better used elsewhere, it will indeed lift the seige and move those armies to where it judges they are more needed. The player will often not be able to see why the seige has been lifted, as the fog of war will prevent the player from seeing the threat that the AI is responding to (unless the player themselves is that threat). This lifting of seiges happens within continuous play as well as after loading a savegame, and the AI also does maintain some seiges after loading a savegame. Now, it is perfectly reasonable to complain that the AI chooses to lift seiges too often, but this is not a savegame bug. In addition, it would not necessarily make the AI perform better to increase its tendancy to maintain armies in seiges they have initiated... it might well end up responding to threats less effectively overall. This is something that can be debated.
The fact that this is not the bug that it has been portrayed as is illustrated by the original post that began this whole thread. It says:
"At the end of any turn where you did a reload the AI factions will immediately lift any siege, *except* those sieges where the AI planned to starve out the settlement."

Given that the player has no clue whether the AI plans to assault or starve out the settlement, what this is really saying is some seiges are lifted and some are not. Hence there is not a bug that causes all seiges to be lifted when a savegame is loaded. Sometimes the AI decides it's armies are needed elsewhere and it lifts a seige; sometimes it doesn't, and the seige is maintained - loaded savegame or just new turn.
Of course, as stated, it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with some of the AI decision-making, but that is an entirely separate discussion.

I hope this helps... !

This was my response:
Wow!8o
a CA staff finally replied!! it seems they did lots of testing with it and arrived at that conclusion, gave my input earlier in the thread..and so i have a question to ask: How does the AI determine the next best alternative?? for e.g in my case and in most i believe, a carthage army sieging messana on scily with rest of scily conquered, no roman armies on fleets or land nearby, built rams to assault, then upon saving and reloading, lifted a siege and idled around the island without doing anything. You call this "next best alternative"??
how? i am very curious, and this is juz one of the many examples...perhaps insufficient playtesting in lieu of this bug was made...

p.s. next best alternative is my terminology for "AI generally makes an assessment each turn of the best use for all the forces it has available (whether a save game has been loaded or not). If it has armies engaged in a seige and it decides that those armies can be better used elsewhere, it will indeed lift the seige and move those armies to where it judges they are more needed"
yes in 3 words ;)

Garik

03-29-2005, 18:58

i think that some british gaming companies have the most innovative ideas and really do attempt to give gamers realism; take Sports Interactive, who made the Championship Manager series, who did in fact hire the fans that beta tested for them as games testers, and have an extensive repetoire of scouts who gather all information about foreign football leagues.

it is somewhat inevitable that, much like a new band with a small following, once a good thing gets bigger, it is never quite the same again. although i only joined the TW series at Rome: Total War, i share the annoyance of bugs going unfixed.

Old Celt

03-29-2005, 19:37

Thanks for posting the CA response.

This is illustrative of the smokescreen behavior CA will use to respond to legitimate issues. And also the little arrogant insult: "Since the player has NO clue..." (emphasis mine). Well, duh, if we lift the FOW and can clearly see what the threats are, I think we have quite the clue. How many cases have there been where people have demonstrated the bug by saving a game, playing out a few more turns to watch the AI finish the siege, then reloading that save and watching the AI break it off at end of turn immediately thereafter? The CA staff does us no favors in assuming we have the mental power of a load of rutabagas! It really galls me that CA will make use of the thousands of hours of free beta testing they get on their finished product, then insult the people who provide data on the flaws!

The devil is in the details. Yeah, no doubt the AI assesses threats each turn, and in some cases, legitimately needs to lift the siege for its own good. But loading a save somehow overrides the planned actions the AI had in the previous game session. It's pretty obvious that when the AI builds 5 rams in a siege on wooden walls, it plans to assault the next turn. To have it fail to do that ONLY when the game is loaded from a save is proof of the bug when you consider the example test I cited above. Whether the actual bug is caused by poor assessment, or by a total reset of variables is a problem for CA to figure out, but the presence of broken code is a given.

The key to defining inappropriate activity as a bug is that it has no basis in logic (true in this case), is repeatable for all users with the version in question (true in this case), and that it definitively effects the performance in a negative way (true again).

Turbo

03-29-2005, 19:42

CA's response to the load/save bug is an attempt to sweep it under the table. It is evident that they have no intention of doing any further patches.

Alien of Germania

03-29-2005, 21:19

Wait for their Official RTW Expansion...
RTB - Rome Total Bug ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker:
unsolved ones I mean ~:)

tai4ji2x

03-29-2005, 21:33

well, torquemadaUK's latest "response" is the last straw for me. unless ignorant and inconsiderate fools like that are fired immediately, i have no intention whatsoever of paying for the expansion, even if this bug is fixed. who knows what new bugs will pop up, and what guarantee is there that those will ever be fixed? it seems pretty obvious by now that they won't. sites like gamecopyworld exist because there is a demand for them. that demand exists because people don't want to pay money for an unsupported, non-refundable yet defective product. i could easily have downloaded RTW, but i didn't. i wanted to support what i initially thought was something that deserved it. well, now i've learned from my mistake. CA can no longer be trusted. screw them.

sik1977

03-29-2005, 22:17

Hi guys,

This is my first post here at this forum. I am an old member at the 'official' .com and know some of the members here (some with different handles i can recognise as well).

So hello to tai4ji2x, Puzz3D, Red Harvest, Aphex (Old Celt?) and the rest.

I actually just came here to check the reaction of the rest of the community on the recent post by TorqUK on the .com forum. I have already posted in the relevent thread and tried to politely engage the said CA rep to test this bug. However, it is rather disappointing that after all this time, when CA decided to post, they posted such rubbish. It was better they didn't post at all.

Anyhow, it does indicate that there won't be a hotfix for this bug coming out soon, otherwise such a naive post by CA staff wouldn't have been made.

Whats more amazing is that some people would continue to argue in favour of this bug not existing without testing it first. DimeBagHo has done a good job in the Loadgame Ai Bug thread, and tries to convince the nay-sayers to test before saying the 'bug isnt there or they haven't noticed it', but people do not wish to consider what some players are going through (not being able to play or enjoy the game because they can't have marathon sessions).

Just wanted to get this off my chest i suppose. One has to be more diplomatic on the .com forums. Can't tell the morons that they are morons there.

Anyway, good day to all.

Old Celt

03-29-2005, 22:26

Greetings sik1977,

I just couldn't stand the official dot com's mods and their overbearing wholesale editing of anything they simply didn't like as opposed to a proper policy based on forum rules, etc. They use the Nazi strategy to deal with any questions they would rather not answer: silence the person asking.

I know the bug exists. It is easy to prove it. Again, I am hopeful that Sega will get control of the gasbags who treat the RTW customer base so contemptuously. We deserve respect. If we present an issue and can back it up, we deserve intelligent sincere responses. When will they realize they are stronger with their best informed customers supporting them then they are with those people highly annoyed at them?

starkhorn

03-29-2005, 22:57

This is awful, truly awful. I can't understand how they are claiming that this isn't a bug. Almost as bad as when MikeB tried to blame the problem on the RTR mod.

That's it. RTW and CA are history as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers all......it's been a fun few years whilst total war lasted.

Cheers
Starkhorn

demon rob

03-30-2005, 00:02

Game Over.

Damn it.

So what can we play?

And no, we cant go back to MTW, its been done to death. Wait for Civ4 I guess?

ps: Don't the mods at the .com and the programmers at CA play the game? Can't they see that the AI does nothing? Some hadn't even seen the coastline bug! (and yes its a totally minor bug no matter what whatsisname thinks, dont put resources into fixing that).

Attalus

03-30-2005, 01:10

You can play Silent Hunter 3!!...although like most games these days it too was released early..with a few bugs. Not game killers though.

The mods at the .com ARE a bit PRICKly. Do you really think a 'code of silence' policy exists? Smacks of conspiracy theory to me...but it does appear to be the case.

Like our elderly celt, I fail to see why one organisation (be it SEGA, CA or Activision) doesn't just answer the frikken questions. Surely they have some sort of PR plan.

Maybe they guys they hired to do the PR job just suxor at PR?

I'd like to se something like this.

CA staff: 'Nah...sorry, no more patches. Activision pwnz the rights and Sega doesn't want to shell out for no return, so no patch. Sorry...HOWEVER, we ARE making an expansion with Sega/Activison and that's definatley going to fix the bugs...you know...the things you (the customer) really really hate AND add a whole ton of extra stuff...like sea battles (better than the ones Eidos are doing for Imperial Glory). Anyway...just wait till you see the next incarnation of Total War....it's gonna be AWESOME!! And the best part...100% BUG FREE!! We GARANTEE it. It's the NEW CA/Sega policy!! No bugs....'

You get the picture. SELL your stuff CA. Take the money from Sega/Activision/Microsoft/Al Queda or whoever...fire your current PR imbeciles and SELL your stuff. Pre-test and Post test...remember?

~:grouphug:

Bhruic

03-30-2005, 01:29

This is just nuts. When I saw MikeB post, I got really annoyed with CA. But then I saw some of the CA posts about the whole console issue, and it seemed like there was a faction within CA that actually "got it". But now we've got another CA employee proving not only that he doesn't have a f*cking clue about his own game, but also that he considers we customers to be idiots.

I can't believe one of them compared their situation to Blizzard at one point. A company that is still putting out patches for games like Starcraft. If Blizzard owned the TW series, we'd likely still see patches for STW and MTW, let alone for RTW.

Bh

player1

03-30-2005, 01:50

That really weird.

Why is only time that CA post, that it's when they are denying that some bugs exists?
And what's more funny is that bugs were tested and well documented in the forums. With tests that anybody can try at home and get conclusions.

I'm shocked! ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

EDIT:
We really need to start lobbying for public beta testing team for expansion, or maybe even public beta patches. This has gone too far.

Benny Moore

03-30-2005, 02:25

The worst part of this is that they don't need us fanatacs, hardcore or not. They will not lose money due to their behavior. There will always be sales, no matter how short of a time people play the game after buying it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Creative Assembly didn't take after the likes of 1C and stop releasing playable demonstrations. 1C is afraid that if people get to try before they buy, they will not buy! Mark my words.

Batangueno

03-30-2005, 02:30

Greetings Old Celt,

I am assuming you are Gwumpke over at .COM. I am the .COM moderator that happened to be there at the time.

The AI Loadgame Bug thread at OT was meant to be a thread for gathering constructive input from patrons regarding the “bug”. There are respected patrons that needed the thread for their analysis of the problem. We do not want the constructive posts to be buried by rants and other off-topic posts. It was not a thread for ranting or venting someone’s anger or frustration.

Being the official Forum of CA, the .COM has been bearing the brunt of uncivil posts. We have to be very strict – whether we like it or not – to keep the sanity of the place. We have been called Nazis before and worse. Those are the kind of crap that we receive on a daily basis in return for volunteering our time to take care of the Forums.

We are not CA employees but patrons volunteering to take care of the Forums for other patrons. We know as much information as any patron. Nothing more.

You post stood out as being from someone who just entered the discussion and I felt that it was a rant and not constructive and on-topic.

Hopefully, you’ll understand. It was nothing personal.

Bat

PS. I feel that the .COM and .ORG are part of one TW community. That’s why I’m here. But to the moderators of .ORG, if you feel that I should not be here and you think it is a conflict of interest, please let me know and I will leave. Thank you.

Benny Moore

03-30-2005, 02:49

I expect that this will really surprise you, but I am on your side on this. Rome: Total War moderators are fairly reasonable. I've only had an issue with one or two over the distinction between using power for personal reasons and using power to perform duties. If anyone thinks that these moderators are fascist in behavior, I suggest that he should stop over to the official Operation Flashpoint forum. I see more locked threads than not over there.

SirGrotius

03-30-2005, 03:40

This reminds me of some horrible bug that existed when Viking Invasion came out. I can't remember what the bug was, but it really crippled the game until the next patch came out. I think CA makes its money off of initial sales--time spent patching after the fact is less profitable than time spent developing the next game (or official expansion). Sad situation for the customers, but we're not organized enough to boycott and if we did, we'd probably just push all companies to the console which is a lamentable medium.

teecee

03-30-2005, 04:32

@ Bhruic,

You know, if CA won't fix the AI siege bug, maybe you could do some more of that magic that you're so famous for. The work you did on "that other product" was nothing short of genius! Not only is it playable almost exclusively because of your modifications, it's STILL tons of fun.

I would be glad to do some grunt work for you, playtesting, etc... if you decide to delve into the depths of this one.

tc

ps - It's good to see a familiar face. ~D

sik1977

03-30-2005, 06:58

I see some more of the .com patrons have just joined here. Welcome teecee, Bat and Qvintvs (Benny Moore surely).

I am rather surprised that Bat actually joined and posted to explain himself. Anyhow, good to see you Bat, I know you have a tough job at the .com forum, and you usually moderate the Loadgame AI Bug thread, which is a difficult one to say the least.

I hope TorqUK reads the two+ pages of posts already generated by his naive post (to say the least) in Loadgame AI Bug thread. I don't think he will admit anything, be it existence of this bug or CA's plans of fixing/ignoring it. I don't want to say this in the .com forums as I don't wish to further depress the patrons there. TorqUK's ignorant post is depressing enough for now.

P.s' Bat, stop siding with fanboys at .com.... hehe... sorry couldn't resist a little tease.

Red Harvest

03-30-2005, 07:22

Bat does a pretty balanced job overall. That is my 2 cents.

Let's give TorqUK some credit. He didn't have to try to address this and killing the messenger is not going to get us anywhere. I'm glad he posted his thoughts, but it also shows that CA is not really all that concerned with some of the bigger issues at the moment, or at least don't see them as problems.

By definition: If the customers see these as big problems, then they are.

Batangueno

03-30-2005, 07:25

Hey Sik1977, good to see you here too.

Actually, the things that happened in the loadgame thread and my registering with .ORG was just a coincidence. Then by chance I saw how Old Celt felt about what I did, so I thought I'll give him a little from my side.

Aurelius' post where he indicated at Duck's pond that he was 2 short of making his 10th post here reminded me to register. You see I lurked for about 2 years at .COM before actually registering. I felt that I should not do that here.

I also wanted to follow Eradosan's contributions here at .ORG.

...Nah. The fanboys don't need any help. They can take care of their own. Besides it won't be good if I take sides. :)

Batangueno

03-30-2005, 07:31

Thanks for your 2 cents Red Harvest. :)

Bhruic

03-30-2005, 07:46

Let's give TorqUK some credit. He didn't have to try to address this and killing the messenger is not going to get us anywhere.

So in your opinion it is better to have someone respond with an incorrect assessment of the situation, while simultaneously telling you that you just don't understand what is going on, than to have them not post at all?

Can't agree with you on that one. If you are going to take the effort to post something, then make sure you know what you are talking about. Spouting off crap that is demonstratably false does nothing to inspire confidence in what you are saying, or your company as a whole. In a case like this, it is relatively simple to test the accuracy of what people have been saying. Not putting that effort in also does little to inspire confidence. In effect, you have left yourself and your company in a worse position than they were in before you said anything.

Bh

tai4ji2x

03-30-2005, 07:55

and voila, now we have a typical lawyerly contribution to the.com thread by our "oh-so-beloved" killemall54, who here in this post perfectly exemplifies why most laypeople refer to lawyers as "slimeballs":

Bugs, by definition, stop the game. In STW we had a click on a ninja problem where if you clicked on the ninja, the game froze, you lost data and crashed to desktop. Same thing with MTW with boats. In RTW there is a glitch that you can accidentally trap a fleet in a river mouth like the STW unit trapped in a corner of a river during a bridge battle.

THERE IS NO LOAD GAME AI SIEGE GAME BUG, Test all you want but none of you have controlled for all the variables. Several CA people discussed this issue with us moderators and we came to the conclusion that (me speaking, like UFO-ologists bent on believing in aliens despite reports to the contrary) those convinced of the bug would continue to believe in the bug despite logic and evidence to the contrary. Our private discussions are well confirmed by your own statements.

Some posts here point out the AI neither attacks or defends during a siege where it has zero chance of winning. When the AI attacks me and wins a siege it generally has far superior forces and proper forces. Sometimes I have massacred an AI attacker when it did not have the proper mix of forces to siege me. The AI often has less money than us as the game progresses. It makes sense it would lift a siege in preparation for moving out to another target in response to a threat. Then when you reload, you change the variables because you reloaded in response to your own situation to take advantage of your perceptions. No wonder the AI backs off its siege.

None of us has the whole AI decision tree and reading the repetitive and unenlightening posts contained herein, none of the critics have applied the proper methodology to support the proof of an alleged bug. All the logic is merely inductive. And all contain the inductive leap. The argument is then from false premises.

Your sacred bug does not crash the game. It does not turn into machine language or hang as a glitch like ships and units caught between tiles. The bug you claim to see has no visible attributes of its existence. ERGO, THERE IS NO BUG.

Also this a very strange animal that only occurs when YOU CHOOSE to reload, and not like a real bug that FORCES YOU to reload. When you make the choice, the BUG is YOU not the GAME.

Browning

03-30-2005, 08:14

"only when you choose to reload - so it is your problem"
This [----insert your beloved dirty word here----] moron just insists we should do nothing but play RTW 24hs a day? This speaks volumes of how close to reality the staff of CA is.

Red Harvest

03-30-2005, 08:15

Browning

03-30-2005, 08:17

K54's definition of a bug is laughable. I've never heard that definition of a bug before, ever. Any time a program does something unintended, it can be classified as a bug (it might not necessarily be, but it could be.) I can assure you that the majority of bugs I've worked on would not halt the app. Ones that stop the app are the easiest ones to ID.

K54 needs to put down the crack pipe.
Roger that. I wonder what the reaction of my boss would be if I responded to his requests in that way.

"Yes, the fin surface temperature is wrong by 10 K, but it does not halt the program, sir, I am not going to correct it."

Bhruic

03-30-2005, 09:02

Nice. I'll have to frame that as "the most idiotic reply from a forum moderator ever". What an ass. No clue what a "bug" is, no clue what this "bug" is, and no clue about how this part of the game works. He might as well get "I'm an idiot" tattooed on his forehead.

Funny how all of his "evidence to the contrary" actually points to the bug's existence.

Bh

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 09:07

Two things seem to stick out for me and I am referring to the .COM thread that is the main topic of this thread.

The first concerning thing is...

WHAT exactly is CA’s communication policy? I mean here we have a CA staffer with 7 posts to his name coming onto the .COM forum and basically dropping a bomb on a topic that by all rights needs a far more comprehensive answer than the one given. I say this only because of the amount of time invested by the Forum members in the debate. How he determined what contribution he was making by saying what he did would now be a discussion at his EXIT INTERVIEW with the company if I was a manager of CA!!

I mean they clearly DON'T take it in turns to answer questions!! What are they doing?? Flipping a coin? Posting only when there is a full moon? Waiting for spring? WHAT!! Clearly it is a public forum for anyone to join but if I was CA Management I would be strictly controlling any and all access of my staff to this site due to what it represents to the company.

This particular CA staffer over at the COM seems to be in his early 20's and certainly not qualified to officially answer a question of this level. I am saying this because I am starting to regard his post as only "One Point of View" inside CA on this issue.

The second is rather hard to ignore. TAKE DIMEBAGHOE'S very bloody basic test parameters and DO IT!! I mean it either turns out similar to what he is saying or it doesn't. THERE IS very little room to manoeuvre due to the extreme nature of his results. I'm not going to go into my own observations as it clearly will add nothing to the massive amount of work already done. In the end this is a very SIMPLE thing to test. How to fix it is the complex part.

BUT, one thing I have noted in my time managing multiple software systems (I'm non-technical) is that when you have this amount of discussion and quantitative evidence then there IS a bloody fire somewhere and just because YOU (see CA) can't find it, doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist!!

To have this CA "clown" drop his 2 cents worth like he did, would have gotten his hand nailed to the boardroom table with a steak knife by me personally if he was on my project.

This obviously is not directed at any of you gentlemen and I appreciate this forum for the sensible and rational environment if has. I just had to leave the reservation for a moment. I also appreciate the .COM "uberwacht" moderators for taking the time to come over here and have a discussion with these board members.

Have a good day or evening gentlemen.

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 09:24

Oh and I forgot to say something...(can you believe that?? ~;) )

I had a great time play over Easter. But you know what happened?

I was determined to finish my first and ONLY Long Imperial Campaign with the Julii, which I have been playing since November last year.

There I was never reloading out of respect for the Load Game bug...and what happened??

I'm glad you asked...

I came back from making my 5th cup of coffee and the god damn bloody sound effect loop bug happened!!! Guess what the only fix is?? You guys know of course. Save the game quit the application and reload!!!

NICE little set of circumstances wouldn't you say!! It happened 3 times over a 4 day Easter extravaganza of ROME TOTAL %#$%^ and of course it happened once when I was fighting over ROME itself in the year 50BC and the Scipii were beseiging me!! They left of course because they had "OTHER" priorities. None of course that I could fathom, but then I'm just a slack jawed moron as far as 7 post CA "piss head" is concerned.

Browning

03-30-2005, 09:31

Oh and I forgot to say something...(can you believe that?? ~;) )

I had a great time play over Easter. But you know what happened?

(...)
I came back from making my 5th cup of coffee and the god damn bloody sound effect loop bug happened!!! Guess what the only fix is?? You guys know of course. Save the game quit the application and reload!!!
(...)

The only fix to that problem is... to turn the music off.

I was playing RTW over Easter while listening to "Messias" by Händel. The quasi-latin songs of RTW just do not campare to that...

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 09:43

The only fix to that problem is... to turn the music off.

I was playing RTW over Easter while listening to "Messias" by Händel. The quasi-latin songs of RTW just do not campare to that...

Well that is very cultural of you Browning. I have never thought of doing that. Don't you lose some feeling for the battles when you can't hear what is happening?

I played a battle with the loop going and it was very off putting. I realised I used many of the audio sounds and queue's for how the battle was going.

Browning

03-30-2005, 09:49

Oh you mean, during a VERY LONG session, not only the music gets choppy, but the sound effects also?

I am with you, I don't imagine playing a battle without sound effects.

Clarification: by saying "Playing over Easter" I meant "doing my 3 hrs sessions, which is 2hrs longer than I can usually afford".

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 09:55

Browning I think we have "crossed our wires" a bit ~:)

I mean I played the game for 6 hours... then left to get "another" coffee and came back with the sound looping through one particular section. Like an order in the battle map or background music in the stat map. It just started looping...not static or chopping just the same sound over and over again.

1 to 3 hour sessions are kinda short for me ~D

starkhorn

03-30-2005, 09:58

Will there be an expansion?
Do we care about the quality of our games?

Yes. Deeply.
I can't think of any other reason for the amount of time and work we put in to producing our games.
We would all rather make great games than work in a dull 9-5 office or produce "run of the mill clones".
I, as do many here, smile ruefully when certain people suggest we don't care or that monkey typists could do better. ~:confused: Perhaps this comes about from a misunderstanding of just how many and how complex the mechanisms we put in place are, to get the game to a playable state, let alone the polished state we like to aim for.
As we live in a real world, we have to deal with some limitations in terms of money and manpower and thus also in terms of time. The result is that we can miss stuff or get it wrong :embarassed: And for this we are very sorry.

Ok so if you really care about the quality of your games then how about requesting to your boss that a patch is released to finalise the last issues created or left over from patch 1.2.

If your boss or whoever says no, then how about asking that you fix the bug in your spare time and release an unofficial patch.

The main issues that I'm talking about are

(1) Why is the AI no longer as agressive in v1.2 as it was in v1.0 ? I'm only really able to play 1 or 2 turns per session, but the AI doesn't seem to be doing anything agressive against me whilst in v1.0 I was fighting for my life in the early stages. No or little regions seems to ever change hands.

(2) Why are fewer ships being built in v1.2 as opposed to v1.0 ?

(3) After uninstalling RTW and then attempting to reinstall RTW v1.2 patch, it's impossible to re-install patch v1.2 as it thinks that it's already installed.

If you really except us to believe that your care then prove it but so far the actions from CA suggest otherwise.

Ignoring posts about potential issues, making no statements about patches and finally having a CA staff member on .com forum stating that a seige loadgame bug is not a bug but indeed a "feature" (or that the AI is simply thick), all suggest to me a company that doesn't care about the quality of it's games and more especially that it doesn't care about the customers who bought said games.

So come on CA, prove that you really care and prove it. But why come along and make posts saying that customers are silly for thinking that you don't care about the quality of your games when your actions (or rather lack of actions) suggest otherwise.

Cheers
Starkhorn

tai4ji2x

03-30-2005, 11:01

Funny how all of his "evidence to the contrary" actually points to the bug's existence.

Bh

my guess is that he'd claim that your claims about his claims only points to the validity of his original claims.

:duel:

:charge:

~:cheers:

i think his characterization of us as UFO-sightings fanatics is quite indicative of his underlying and pervasive attitude of condescencion towards the community.

starkhorn

03-30-2005, 11:41

From TheShogun over a .com.

"Guys this thread has just about run it's course before it's heads down flame alley, so I moved the thread to rants and raves. "

So they've moved the 12 page thread over to Rants and Raves now which basically means that they are no longer taken this issue seriously (not that they ever did seem to take it seriously) and that they 100% truly believe that this issue is a not a bug.

I had hoped that the CA Staff member who made the comment was only speaking for himself and that CA would come out and say something else....how naive of me.

Basically it proves once again that they are just trying to sweep this under the carpet and ignore everyone.

Bravo CA for your customer service and feedback.

Cheers
Starkhorn

Catiline

03-30-2005, 11:59

all pretty much the same issue and the samer complaints Threads merged

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 12:05

Browning

03-30-2005, 13:21

The thread in question has been restarted (not by me).

Let's hope the stubbornness the community addresses the issue will get noted by the developers and convince them that it is a real problem - the issue, not the stubbornness.

player1

03-30-2005, 13:31

********************************************
IMPORTANT INFO HERE: CODERS PLEASE READ THIS
********************************************

Ok, I think there is something more into this bug (or "strange animal" whatever...):

This requires one minute of testing a top.

1) Start game as Brutii or Scipii.
2) Save the game.
3) Press end of turn.
4) Julii will 100% of time take Segesta.

5) Now load saved game.
6) Press end of turn.

7) Julii will NEVER take Segesta, they'll just regroup!

Now, this makes my earlier hypothesis of AI losing long term plans, since they don't get saved, a little bit dodgy. This happens on 1st turn, before Julii had any plans.

Is it possible that loading game, corrupts AI logic in such way that they somehow don't try offensive actions in turn after load?

By trying similar tests in long term (EndOfTurn/save/load/EndOfTurn cycle), it happens that no territiry switches hand for whole game. This includes terriories without walls, so it's definetly not just seiges problem.

This bug (or "strange animal") affects mostly players that don't play long-term sessions, as well as late and mid game when turns get very long.

SpencerH

03-30-2005, 13:34

An amazing definition of a bug; no CTD no bug. :shakes head:

This whole debacle with RTW is really really disappointing. There seems to be no point in trying to be constructive any more. IMO, all thats left is to try to pass our disatisfaction on to the game review sites and influence CA's (self destructive) behaviour in that manner.

AussieGiant

03-30-2005, 14:12

player1,

I tell you something...between you and DimeBagHo's very simple test parameters these CA guys really do have their heads where the sun is not shining.

It really is embaressing.

Oh and have you seen the view hits on this topic from potentially hundreds of people instested in the topic!!!

LOL!! The traction this topic is getting is incredible.

If you refresh ever 3 minutes the number keeps going up and up!!

hrvojej

03-30-2005, 14:15

the BUG is YOU not the GAME

~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes: ~D ~D

Paraphrasing: "One morning, Gregor Samsa woke up transformed into a cockroach... "

This is a really retarded viewpoint. I don't think I ever used this term on these forums before, but this one deserves every letter of it. That's right, I'm the bug because I bought this product in the first place, and I thought that I could *reload* a friggin game save, oh the insolence. Me buying this game was a glitch in the system that needs to be corrected. I assure you, however, that unlike with some other problems the patch in this particular case is on its way.

Browning

03-30-2005, 14:34

OT:
The fact that they have "techincal moderators" (Spelling original!) on those boards speaks volumes on the moderation quality on .com !

Old Celt

03-30-2005, 15:13

Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen,

@Bat: We have a definite disagreement about what is a rant. I posted my original document here so the entire community would at least get to read it. If you really believed it needed to be in rants, then you should have moved it NOT censored ++++++++++++++++++. It sure doesn't surprise me that YOU think you're fair. Oh, and since it's a volunteer position, how do I volunteer? Please don't try to tell me you don't moderate to a CA mandated agenda. I've been around the block a few times. I won't waste my time posting where the forum is not legitimate.

Now, to the subject at hand: like Red Harvest and Bhruic, I work in software development. Do you think that just maybe, we know what a freakin BUG is???!!! All we are seeing here is absolutely PATHETIC attempts at damage control, none of which involve a real solution, or even an acknowledgement of the bug's existence!! I've been holding off from speaking with my personal contacts in the game review industry, because I think it is only fair to give CA/Activision/SEGA a fair chance to resolve this issue. But if they don't want to play ball, then I will bend some ears until they look like Mr Spock on Star Trek. You reap what you sow: if CA wants to alienate their customers, they shouldn't be surprised when they reap the whirlwind.

@CA Staff: it is totally inexcusable to insult your customers under any circumstances. Can't you get that very basic customer service premise? It's clear to me, that at least some of you think we "plebians" cannot say anything to you worth hearing. Well please do us a favor, and at least pretend to care and respect our opinions. Then you can make fun of us privately with no hard feelings on our part. We have been insulted by a staff member telling us "we had no clue", about the problem, and then, this all time classic: "The BUG is YOU"!! If any dev ever had the audacity to speak like that to a customer in my organization, his/her head would be rolling down the hall inside of 3 seconds.

I consider the option of speaking with game review sources to be the option of last resort because it is lose/lose for CA and the customer. The win/win option is for CA to listen to what we have said, evaluate and assess it objectively, respond to our concerns and provide a working solution for the issues. Though this will cost T&E for CA, it will bring loyalty back from the consumers, and rather than criticizing CA, we will praise their willingness to do "whatever it takes" to make things right. Please, don't let this be a case where the consumers have nothing left to hope for but, REVENGE.

Have a pleasant day all

starkhorn

03-30-2005, 15:35

Well this experience and other games is beginning to open my eyes to a demand some sort of bug/patch watching website or forum for games. i.e. where serious bugs exist in games which game developers don't want to acknowledge or fix.

Might be useful, especially if game magazines start taking an interest.

Does any such website exist ?

Cheers
Starkhorn

player1

03-30-2005, 15:42

Well, I always thought that if such thing as "bug police" column exstsited in gaming magazines that overall post-patch support for games would rise, since forums read just core fans, and magazines many more.

mfberg

03-30-2005, 15:46

sort of bug/patch watching website or forum for games.

This is that forum for MTW and should be for RTW

mfberg

player1

03-30-2005, 16:54

This is that forum for MTW and should be for RTW

mfberg

Well, usually all fan forums are that.
the problem is that only core audience visits the forums, so bugs don't affect sales much.

Until such things get in paper (magazines), there is no hope for improving of bad patch policy trend.

SpencerH

03-30-2005, 17:33

Well, usually all fan forums are that.
the problem is that only core audience visits the forums, so bugs don't affect sales much.

Until such things get in paper (magazines), there is no hope for improving of bad patch policy trend.

The strange thing about that is why do the mods at .com and the CA employees (here and there) care about the complaints?

Puzz3D

03-30-2005, 18:21

A simple repeatable test using RTW v1.2 that demonstrates the loadgame/siege issue:

Julii imperial campaign, M/M difficulty, FOW false:

Start, 270 BC. Position the map so that you can see both Syracuse and Athens. Hit end turn.

Turn 1, 270 BC. Scipii sieges Syracuse which can hold 7 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 2, 270 BC. Decline the trade offer from Gaul. Syracuse can hold for 6 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 3, 269 BC. Accept the marriage offer. Syracuse can hold for 5 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 4, 269 BC. Syracuse can hold for 7 turns. (Perhaps an unsuccessful assault was made and the siege has been reinstated.) Macedonia sieges Athens which can hold for 6 turns. Save the game. Hit end turn.

Turn 5, 268 BC. Syracuse can hold for 6 turns. Athens can hold for 5 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 6, 268 BC. Syracuse can hold for 5 turns. Athens falls to Macedonia. Exit the game.

Load the savegame made on turn 4. It doesn't matter if you restart RTW or not because the result is the same in each case. Hit end turn.

Turn 5, 268 BC. Scipii lifts the siege on Syracuse and moves away. Macedonia lifts the siege on Athens and moves away. Hit end turn.

Turn 6, 268 BC. Scipii sieges Syracuse which can hold for 7 turns. Macedonia sieges Athens which can hold for 6 turns.

End of test.

Conclusion:

Clearly, loading the game caused both sieges to be lifted because neither siege was lifted when play was not interrupted by the save/load cycle. The expansion by Scipii and Macedonian is set back by the lifting of these sieges. I repeated this test several times with the same result each time. It's apparent that the AI forgot it was sieging after the reload, reformulated it's siege strategy on the first turn (turn 5) and reinstated the sieges on the second turn (turn 6). The course of the campaign is altered by saving and loading because Macdonia should already be in possession of Athens on turn 5, and Scipii should be further along in it's conquest of Syracuse.

I would classify this as an oversight that information the AI needs to continue from where it left off when the savegame was made is not in the savegame file. If this was intentionally coded like this by CA as their denial that it's a bug implies, then RTW is not a serious strategy game.

Craterus

03-30-2005, 21:30

Good research Puzz3D, ~D

Old Celt

03-30-2005, 21:32

Test results recently posted on the dot com are indicative of the AI forgetting what it was doing when the game reloads; not only with sieges, but also with regard to troop movements. This also makes the inference that AI expansion strategy is rebooted to square one as well. The easily reproducible (though tedious) test of starting a new game and saving and reloading after each turn will show that NO provinces change hands with the AI after 20 turns of play. Why? Because the save game file must not be including the data for the AI to assess when play is resumed.

The tests posted, unless they can be challenged, clearly indicate a much farther reaching problem than just siege behavior. That might be why CA has not responded with anything other than denial. Perhaps they wish to see how much of this we can figure out before they make any admissions about what they will fix.

Regardless of whether or not we free beta testers (I mean players who paid for the product) can expose the entire iceberg, it has been conclusively proven there is a substantial bug with AI behavior when the game is reloaded from a save. Now, CA can continue to deny it, but the proof is out there for everyone to see. Hopefully, CA will stop sticking its collective heads in the sand and start a constructive dialog with the RTW community to work toward resolving the problems. If CA won't be coaxed to do this in a cordial way, then maybe SEGA can be persuaded to take some ownership and force CA to do the right thing.
We need a patch!

Puzz3D

03-31-2005, 01:11

Well I think it's important to post whatever evidence we can accumulate on this issue, and I think it will eventually be brought to the attention of the dev who programmed this part of the game, and he'll realize that some info which the AI needs in order to properly continue the game is missing in the savegame file. As I said before, the public posts that CA makes are more like damage control than anything else, and that has to be considered when reading those posts. Of course, it's a little scary that info is missing from the savegame in the first place.

One of the big problems at .com is that no matter how good a thread is it eventually falls off the forum at page 20. CA may not get around to looking at outstanding issues in RTW for quite some time depending on how hard pressed they are in getting the next project finished.

screwtype

03-31-2005, 07:46

"Yes, the fin surface temperature is wrong by 10 K, but it does not halt the program, sir, I am not going to correct it."

ROFL!

AussieGiant

03-31-2005, 08:34

Well gentlemen the thread over at the COM is AGAIN gaining momentum rapidly.

It is certainly worth keeping up with it over there as more information regarding gain protectorates and this bug seem to be linked as well.

Also rcp1 found the following sentence in the readme file of the last patch:

"All future disaster events and historical events were being erased when a save game was loaded up. This is now fixed".

His comments:

"It is possible and entirely likely that this issue is closely related to the disaster issue. Disasters were simply the tip of a very large iceberg.

I'd be willing to put good money on it."

---------------------------

It really does feel like a cracking episode of Bold and the Beautiful or maybe even EastEnders now.

Browning

03-31-2005, 08:56

I remember reading that the Bug was present in 1.1 but not that pronounced. Can anybody confirm this (and hopefully invalidate the statement)? I do not have the space to have to RTW installations on my comp.

JimBob

03-31-2005, 20:42

Browning, luckily, for you at least, my computer came crashing down recently, forcing me to wipe everything and start fresh(who would thing that I would combine 'luckily' and any mention of reinstalling windows). So I had a 1.0 installation of RTW and tested the bug on 1.0 and 1.1 results follow:
Setup and rules: Imperial Campaign, No Advice, M/M, Manage All, M/M, Brutii, on start all cities to low tax rate, fog of war false, no accepting marriage, City of Phraaspa test subject
1.0 tests-
Start1-Senate Mission-Take Appollonia, 10 turn limit, 1 minor exotic unit reward.
Start1+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Testing(1Phraaspa).
Start1+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, qutii
Start1+2.2-relaod Parthian army bypasses Phraaspa.

Start2-Same as Start1.
Start2+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls).
Start2+2.1-Parthian army takes Phraaspa.
Start2+2.2-Did not save-false test.

Start3-Same as Start1 except reward=you will be greatly rewarded.
Start3+1-Marriage request, Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Testing(3Phraaspa).
Start3+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start3+2.2-reload Parthian army turns south

1.1 tests-
Start4-Same as Start1 except nothing
Start4+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Test(4Phraaspa).
Start4+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start4+2.2-relaod Marriage Request, Army stops, Arcases disapperes.

Start5-Same as Start1 except reward=you will be greatly rewarded.
Start5+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Test(5Phraaspa).
Start5+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start5+2.2-reload Parthian army stops in place.
I continued to see if Parthia would later take the city. At +5 turns Armenia took Phraaspa.

The bug has been around since 1.1 it seems, these tests are not complete enough to tell but I am unable to complete them, someone else could use this as a jumping off point. All turns and moves are documented in screenshots and I still have the save games.
Also I apologize for the spelling and grammer errors, this was quickly typed from notes in my own very strange form of shorthand, I will fix that later.

Marcus Maxentius

03-31-2005, 21:08

Craterus

03-31-2005, 21:12

I bought the game for the SP.. I didn't know the multiplayer was a reason customers bought the game ~:confused: ~D

tai4ji2x

03-31-2005, 23:09

I bought the game for the SP.. I didn't know the multiplayer was a reason customers bought the game ~:confused: ~D

actually, online i had encountered numerous players that didn't even know a single-player campaign existed.

Pode

04-01-2005, 01:13

I posted in another thread to similar effect, but since Bat showed up in this particular thread I feel like I should reiterate that he is IMHO one of if not the best of the mods over there and I truly appreciate his dedication both to the TW games (by undertaking such a thankless mod task) and to fair, civilised, rational discussion. I have promised earlier (and I encourage all of you to do the same) never to cross post anything he says here on the .org to the .com, so that he can safely take off the mod hat and feel free to say what he thinks. He's treated me and many other unhappy customers with respect, and so the least we can do is give him the same courtesy. Kill54, OTOH, I will never forgive for calling me paranoid and delusional, so if I slip and make some comment about the modding in general, I don't mean to include Bat.

I feel like such a fool. Just realized I was confusing Bat with Wart. Still intend to honor my promise not to cross post, just because that's the right thing to do, but take back some (not all) of the kind words

Aurelius

04-01-2005, 01:58

Turbo

04-01-2005, 02:25

Thanks to JimBob for verifying that the load/save bug has been around since 1.0. Unfortunately, CA has decided that this is a feature (yeah right).

Nelson

04-01-2005, 03:03

I'm just trying to hold the breach so that there's a chance that .com patrons can make the sort of friends that I have since I started skulking back in the Shogun days. Please don't paint me with a fascist brush. We all have our moments, but for pity's sake realize that the place just blew past 22,222 today as far as posters go. It isn't fair to compare a forum that's advertised in who knows how many countries to the private forums that the dedicated TW heads set up. It's the difference between a guy who has every Grateful Dead album ever released on their label, and the guy who has been obsessively looking for the gig that was taped by hand on Jerry's last birthday. ( I was there- does anyone have it? ~:cheers: )

I'm trying to be as honest and earnest as possible in this post.... I hope I've succeeded.

Hang in there, brother!

Nelson

04-01-2005, 03:12

Another big problem is that so many games are bought because of multiplayer. They might not think singleplayer is important because it doesn't create as much sales. If you notice the first patch was a multiplayer hotfix. You'd think that since singleplayer has so many problems that that would be their first concern.

If I were to call MP the tip of the Total War iceberg I would be guilty of overstating my case. MP folks are vocal and, in forums at least, apparently numerous. But they represent a tiny fraction of Total War sales. Most buyers don't bother to go to forums and talk about games, prefering to spend that time actually playing them!

Be warned that someone will come in here soon and dispute this but don't you believe 'em! :wink:

Wicked

04-01-2005, 03:18

*

Glad to be of service. ~:grouphug:

Aurelius

04-01-2005, 03:31

Thanks, Nelson. I really mean that. I'm honestly not sure that the great patrons of the community that get so angry with us realize the impossible situation that we signed up for. At one point, every time I signed on to the .com there were over 400 people laying down posts.

I felt like there were only 40 of us, rapiers drawn, a la three musketeers...

All for one, and one for all against the tsunami.

And then some dude signs on, and in 72 hours is calling me a fascist. I ran my own board for a while, after the purge, so that we could all have 100% freedom, but I couldn't afford to maintain it. And in 8 months, I closed zero threads. Admonished, yeah, scolded, yeah, but pressed the admin buttons? Nope.

Friendship. It isn't just for breakfast anymore.

EDIT: Thanks for the asterisk, Wicked. I guess we'll see how many patrons read whole threads. Did anyone else make two or three good pals on the .com? Look at your address book, mates. Look at your address book. It isn't about selling shares. It's about sharing tales.

Mablung

04-01-2005, 03:56

A lot of you guys are being far too harsh on the .com mods, they give up their own time to try and keep the place in some sort of order. It is not their fault there is a lot of moderating, there is a hell of a lot of crap posted there!
The problem is the maturity level seems to have dropped markedly since the influx of new patrons thanks to Rome. When there is a lower maturity level of course there is going to be more moderating, if it was less leniant new patrons would be less likely to join as it would be hell.

Aur - have to say I have made some good mates, enjoyed having a chat to SP, Stoney, Zelda, Massa and many others. Too bad chat was taken away, still talk to some of the guys. Also, it is always good to catch up with some of the patrons that don't post over at .com anymore -- got to thank Duck and for his pond.

Aurelius

04-01-2005, 04:15

So... post just an asterisk.

I'm serious. I'm not gonna rope in 6700 .com lemmings to back me up. I could, but I'm not gonna do that.

I think that the .com has been a lot more important to far more people than would first appear.

That's why we spend so much time... just trying. It has nothing to do with any nefarious plot. The very idea of one site against another is ridiculous, and I for one refuse to have anything to do with it.

Browning

04-01-2005, 10:49

...is not to load at all.

Wait, don't bash me yet, I am also your 1-hour-every-second-evening type of guy.

And I live in Germany, which means I pay like 4 times more for the electricity than it actually costs, thus I am unwilling to leave my comp permanently on.

A possible solution, which I have just read on the .com forum, would be to HIBERNATE your comp. Basically, it writes the complete memory state onto your harddisk and then turns off. Upon start, the memory will be loaded, and you find yourself in the middle of your R:TW campaign without loading the savegame, if everything works.

I suspect, one could then copy and rename the hiberfil.sys file (and most probably the swap file?) and use it as a kind of savegame substitute. This way you avoid beeing limited to playing only one campaign on your computer. On my computer, my son plays his also, thus a straightforward solution is not the one for me...

I will test it over weekend... perhaps someone of you can do it even earlier.

player1

04-01-2005, 12:46

I suspect, one could then copy and rename the hiberfil.sys file (and most probably the swap file?) and use it as a kind of savegame substitute. This way you avoid beeing limited to playing only one campaign on your computer. On my computer, my son plays his also, thus a straightforward solution is not the one for me...

And how to do it, since computer after powering on, automaticly restores hyberanted state (and doens't restore it anymore until next hybernation).

.

Anyway, is it possible to make a program that could make an image of all RTW data in RAM, which could be loaded later?

Maeda Toshiie

04-01-2005, 15:52

Speaking as a .com mod, I have to say that Bat has done a fantastic job since the first day he began posting. It makes me feel great that he's getting the proper respect he deserves, considering the time and effort he puts into the .com site.

Speaking strictly as a member of the TW community, I would have to say that there are many, many times when frustration over bugs and game issues gets personal over there, and the colours of fact and opinion blur together, resulting in the very smog that bores into the foreheads of the more articulate patrons. On the matter of all of us being 'company men', well, that line of thinking doesn't hold water because on a forum where there are literally hundreds of repeat posts, outright garbage, and the occasional concerted effort to make the place look like a death camp, (IE: certain 'incursions' by groups from other forums), it's obvious to all concerned that some weeks we're going to look more like butchers than surgeons. Don't mistake our silence on some matters for mute acceptance of the party line. Do you think it's a coincidence that some threads, full to the brim with venom and inarticulate rubbish, get some 'official' (oh, how I'm growing to hate that word) attention when someone makes a good point? Most days I feel like an avalanche rescue worker, sticking a fibreglass pole into the white noise drifts in the hope of salvaging a good post or thread from asphyxiation. I know there are more 'refined' places to have more intricate conversations, but I also know that if every member of the .org that met some cool people at .com posted an asterisk on this thread, it would be 130 pages long, mates.

I'm just trying to hold the breach so that there's a chance that .com patrons can make the sort of friends that I have since I started skulking back in the Shogun days. Please don't paint me with a fascist brush. We all have our moments, but for pity's sake realize that the place just blew past 22,222 today as far as posters go. It isn't fair to compare a forum that's advertised in who knows how many countries to the private forums that the dedicated TW heads set up. It's the difference between a guy who has every Grateful Dead album ever released on their label, and the guy who has been obsessively looking for the gig that was taped by hand on Jerry's last birthday. ( I was there- does anyone have it? ~:cheers: )

I'm trying to be as honest and earnest as possible in this post.... I hope I've succeeded.

Enjoy Being.

EDIT: Don't cut that bastard Wart any slack. LMAO !!

@Aure, forget it. There are many people out there who can neither be tolerant of the view points of others nor be able to see the other sides of the picture. .com moderators have always been viewed as facists since the Purge (or even before). Nothing can be said that will change the impression of others. .com are the official forums and certain standards have to be enforced. Some cannot accept this fact. It is a fact of life, else why is there never peace in this world?

I know that I have not been around for long, since I only joined .com in January last year. I also know that there are those out there who have less than polite things to say about me. I dont care. Neither do I care about the thousands of posts that I have made in the MTW forum. Sometime from now when I finally disappear, all that wouldnt matter to me at all. I am not here to make a mark in the community. I just want to help others enjoy their games.

Fact: Activision is the publisher and hence the final authority in Support. Support at .com has always been provided on an ad hoc basis. It was never official. Just ask Erado.

Fact: Activision limited the number of patches for RTW (AND the expansion) to a single patch. VI 2.01 was a patch made on the free time of CA's developers. If you think CA didnt care about their games, would they have gotten out the patch on their own time (on top of their official work) to fix the cavalry and 56 years bugs?

In other words, if RTW is to ever have a 1.3 patch, the devs would have to work on their own time (on top of their work on the expansion).

Activision paid CA for the development. You paid Activision for the game.

I recall the big outcry on the state of multiplayer back when the game was just released. People complained about CA focusing on SP and neglecting multiplayer. Right now, everyone here is switching their tune and start bashing CA for focusing on the multiplayer and ignoring problems in SP?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I can see, after observing the threads on the loadgame bug, I am inclined to believe that the issue runs deeper than just the AI forgetting. Siege lifting may well be just a very obvious symptom of something else. It have something to do with the basic design of the game AI. If that is so, it may not be something so easily addressed by a patch or even an expansion. It is hard to say since we have no concrete idea regarding how the AI works. We can only wait and see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haters of .com forum staff can flame all you want. I dont care.

Butcher

04-01-2005, 18:06

I generally start of slowly, so my first 20-30 turns fly by (just the way I play, I like to give the a.i a chance!). I notiec that generally I do the first 30 turns without reloading, as I do it in one sitting. The map changes shape a lot then. On reloading, the pace of change drops drastically, In my current Carthage campaign, Parthia has stagnated in an uber empire form after a massive 30 year rush at the start. It has not conquered anywhere near as much as it did, as my turns are longer and I cannot play for extended periods.
The Parthians and Egyptians started a war against each other, i watched it through spies etc for about 15 turns, and they werer really getting stuck in, with jerusalem exchanging hands often.
Now, after a reload, both just sit there even though they are still at war. the Parthians even broke of a siege when there was only 1 Egyptian unit in the city.

You don't need to convince me there's something odd in that, Given that Parthia had them on the ropes..

'Feature' my arse..

Calmarac

04-01-2005, 22:48

*

~:cool:

Calmarac

04-01-2005, 22:51

Don't mistake our silence on some matters for mute acceptance of the party line. Do you think it's a coincidence that some threads, full to the brim with venom and inarticulate rubbish, get some 'official' (oh, how I'm growing to hate that word) attention when someone makes a good point? Most days I feel like an avalanche rescue worker, sticking a fibreglass pole into the white noise drifts in the hope of salvaging a good post or thread from asphyxiation.

Excellent image there :) Or maybe like a farmer picking over the Midden to rescue a few blooms that appeared overnight, before today`s lorryload of manure gets dumped on top ~D

Keep the faith ~:)

Nefarious

04-02-2005, 10:14

@ Aur,

*

~:grouphug:

'Mumblings in the alleyways...wait. What...? Where'd he...? How did he find...?'

Don't worry how, just revel in the 'same teamness'. ~:cheers:
Nef

Benny Moore

04-02-2005, 11:00

VI 2.01 was a patch made on the free time of CA's developers. If you think CA didnt care about their games, would they have gotten out the patch on their own time (on top of their official work) to fix the cavalry and 56 years bugs?

From what I can see, after observing the threads on the loadgame bug, I am inclined to believe that the issue runs deeper than just the AI forgetting. Siege lifting may well be just a very obvious symptom of something else. It have something to do with the basic design of the game AI. If that is so, it may not be something so easily addressed by a patch or even an expansion. It is hard to say since we have no concrete idea regarding how the AI works. We can only wait and see.

Herein lies the problem. You say that Creative Assembly does care, and indeed this is supported by the information in your first statement. However, your second statement admits that there is a problem. Creative Assembly does not, and they moreover insulted nearly the entire forum for saying that there is one. I'm sure you've heard the quote, probably even in this thread, where one of the Creative Assembly tells the forum something to the effect of "You just want to complain and will never be happy with the game. The bug you are complaining about now doesn't exist, and you have no clue how the game works."

Aetius the Last Roman

04-02-2005, 12:32

I personally feel quite responsible for this thread,
starting out as a mini-protest I expected to disappear into the nexus of the colosseum we have gone on to a seven-page political slandering of the authority of the the community and .com, as if they are immensely great forces. True, no-one really cares for .com anymore and .org has pretty much become the official site but is there any need for a great debate over the rights to TW?

My regrets for starting this conflagaration,
Aetius.

BTW, what and when on earth was this 'purge' of the .com?

ShellShock

04-02-2005, 12:54

I suspect that CA has already drawn up its development plans for the next year, and have fully allocated its resouces (people) to the various projects:

RTW Expansion
Spartan Total Warrior
Successor to RTW

It create patch 1.3 for RTW they would have to take people off these projects, which would delay their delivery; some of these existing projects deadlines may be set in stone. Also, they would not earn any tangible revenue from another patch, although they would get appreciation from many RTW players, which could have intangible benefits in the future (better sales of forthcoming products).

So, for a CA project manager, this could be a difficult decision to make.

player1

04-02-2005, 13:02

It create patch 1.3 for RTW they would have to take people off these projects, which would delay their delivery; some of these existing projects deadlines may be set in stone. Also, they would not earn any tangible revenue from another patch, although they would get appreciation from many RTW players, which could have intangible benefits in the future (better sales of forthcoming products).

Does not need to be like that.
To create solid expansion, you need to take care of worst bugs from non-expanded game. If you do fix them for expansion, it would not be too much difficult to incoporate them in small hotfix for base game (although there is a small problem of maintaing two code bases in same time).

Browning

04-02-2005, 16:21

@Aure, forget it. There are many people out there who can neither be tolerant of the view points of others nor be able to see the other sides of the picture. .com moderators have always been viewed as facists since the Purge (or even before). Nothing can be said that will change the impression of others. .com are the official forums and certain standards have to be enforced. Some cannot accept this fact. It is a fact of life, else why is there never peace in this world?

Calling modeators of an internet forums fascists is just... wrong. Fascism (sided by communism) is a single most evil creation of the human mind in its recorded history. Humans following these evil ideologies killed millions of other human beings without any justifiable reason and changed the history and the spirits of whole nations in a way that these nations will never be the same.

Whatever one does on an internet forum just cannot be compared to that. It is wrong even if the word "fascist" is used as a parabola because some words just must not be abused. In fact I consider using this word in such a stupid context an insult for all those who suffered because of and who fought against this evil.

This beeing said, I want to ask you, Meada, to think about the policies of the moderators on the .com forum. This is not a flame. And please don't tell me you don't care. You should care about the opinion people have about that forum because you give that forum a shape.

Such a forum must be moderated - there is no doubt of it. There are enough people in the world who behave like morons when anonymity protects them. Taking part in unmoderated forums is just a waste of time. But there is another opposite and it is also bad, and the .com is close to that opposite. There were important things said in some threads that disappeared. True, some of the posts in the mentioned threads were far from being mature, but a moderator has tools to remove/edit single posts rather than an entire thread. As it happened - the threads containing info on the flaws of the product were de-facto removed - and this creates a bad air. Combined with some posts by the developers, which even with a best of goodwill could be understood equivocally, this created a _very_ bad air.

Fact: Activision limited the number of patches for RTW (AND the expansion) to a single patch. VI 2.01 was a patch made on the free time of CA's developers. If you think CA didnt care about their games, would they have gotten out the patch on their own time (on top of their official work) to fix the cavalry and 56 years bugs?

Fact: there is a bug that needs fixing.

In other words, if RTW is to ever have a 1.3 patch, the devs would have to work on their own time (on top of their work on the expansion).

Fact: if I break something I usually repair it.

Activision paid CA for the development. You paid Activision for the game.

Yes I paid for a software product and I expect it to function. A software with a dysfunctional save-load feature is a dysfunctional software unless it is a demo.

I recall the big outcry on the state of multiplayer back when the game was just released. People complained about CA focusing on SP and neglecting multiplayer. Right now, everyone here is switching their tune and start bashing CA for focusing on the multiplayer and ignoring problems in SP?

Let me propose a revolutional solution: both SP and MP should work...!

Bhruic

04-02-2005, 17:15

Fact: Activision limited the number of patches for RTW (AND the expansion) to a single patch. VI 2.01 was a patch made on the free time of CA's developers. If you think CA didnt care about their games, would they have gotten out the patch on their own time (on top of their official work) to fix the cavalry and 56 years bugs?

You know, I hear this a lot. Well, actually, I hear 2 patches a lot. I hear lots of things about limits to patches a lot. But no one has ever presented any evidence to support their claims.

Have you a quote from Activision or CA backing up this "fact"? Have you seen the contract the two of them have?

I recall the big outcry on the state of multiplayer back when the game was just released. People complained about CA focusing on SP and neglecting multiplayer. Right now, everyone here is switching their tune and start bashing CA for focusing on the multiplayer and ignoring problems in SP?

Wait, where did they focus on multiplayer? Did they put out a new multiplayer patch that I'm not aware of? Seems like they've neglected both MP and SP. Not exactly praiseworthy behaviour.

Bh

Mablung

04-02-2005, 23:05

True, no-one really cares for .com anymore and .org has pretty much become the official site but is there any need for a great debate over the rights to TW?

My regrets for starting this conflagaration,
Aetius.

BTW, what and when on earth was this 'purge' of the .com?

Not true, how can it pretty much be the official site for TW? CA owns the .com fora, they are for the TW series, it is the one and only official forum.

As for the purge, it happened before I arrived - well over a year ago, don't know how long ago. This was when there were signatures and avatars and .com - they were removed after misuse and then there was a Stalinistic purge of the patrons. Many of the older forumites - Goats and Uglies either were banned or left.

Aetius - good on you mate, takes a man to admit regret.

player1

04-02-2005, 23:18

For me, the only reason why I prefer these forums, is that ezBoards suck simple as that.

You can't subscribe on post and get just one single mail, you'll get dozen of them (one per every post). And subscription mail link leads you to first page of the, post, not the last.

No avatars, no signatures...
Nuff said...

P.S.
At least it's not as bad as RtW Heaven forums were you can't subscrite to threads at all.

Simetrical

04-03-2005, 03:27

You know, I hear this a lot. Well, actually, I hear 2 patches a lot. I hear lots of things about limits to patches a lot. But no one has ever presented any evidence to support their claims.

Have you a quote from Activision or CA backing up this "fact"?I can tell you that I saw devs say straight-out that CA and Activision have a two-patch deal, with no ambiguity. Unfortunately, I don't know if any such dev statements still exist on the .com forums, since every topic that reaches the end of the twentieth page is deleted. Probably someone quoted one of the devs on this somewhere here or at TWC, if someone feels like searching.

-Simetrical

Attalus

04-03-2005, 06:57

I can tell you that I saw devs say straight-out that CA and Activision have a two-patch deal, with no ambiguity. Unfortunately, I don't know if any such dev statements still exist on the .com forums, since every topic that reaches the end of the twentieth page is deleted. Probably someone quoted one of the devs on this somewhere here or at TWC, if someone feels like searching.

-Simetrical
Are you sure about that?

The only thing that I remember reading was in theshogun's pre-patch announcements.

Something about.."We may only get one run at a patch"...or words to that effect.

Hardly conclusive.

Now..if'n a certain aquatic marine life wearing officer were to post a definitive answer...well.

Perhaps the tone and flavor of alot of posts both here and at the .com would see some significant improvements.

No patch...no trolls. What's to whinge about for more than one post?

'member this?

~:grouphug:

rightieo.

Bhruic

04-03-2005, 07:07

hellenes

04-03-2005, 08:58

If that's true, why was Maeda claiming that it was a "fact" they only got one patch? Last time I checked my math, 1 != 2.

Bh

Well if 1.1 was a patch we are getting to stage 2.9 with the various mods, what we need is not imaginative patches but some real ones...

Hellenes

Puzz3D

04-03-2005, 14:03

Attalus

04-03-2005, 14:39

CA has always followed a one patch policy: STW v1.12, MI v1.02, MTW v1.1, VI v2.01 and now RTW v1.2. There were two quick patches STW v1.01 and RTW v1.1 each aimed at fixing a multiplayer connection issue, but I don't count those as full blown patching efforts.

Agreed, Puzz. The reasoning is a litle flawed though...'It's what we ALWAYS do...' Sheesh.

However, the silence and lack of 'ownership' still irks me.

Bhruic

04-03-2005, 15:11

CA has always followed a one patch policy: STW v1.12, MI v1.02, MTW v1.1, VI v2.01 and now RTW v1.2. There were two quick patches STW v1.01 and RTW v1.1 each aimed at fixing a multiplayer connection issue, but I don't count those as full blown patching efforts.

Sure, I'm not disputing the history. I'm just looking for a reason. Is it because that's what they're contracted for? Is it because they believe they can fix everything with one patch?

I guess I'm looking to see who my ire should be directed towards. If it's part of the contract with Activision, then that's who's to blame. If it's simply that CA believes they've fixed the bugs they need to fix, then it would be CA's fault. It's an important issue for the future, now that they are owned by Sega, because if it was Activision's fault, then we can reasonably hope that things will improve. But if it's CA's idea, then changing publishers isn't going to help.

Bh

Red Harvest

04-03-2005, 17:43

However, the silence and lack of 'ownership' still irks me.

And there you have hit one one of my "hot buttons." Lack of ownership. I've seen that too often in engineering. Some groups, vendors, contractors seem to feel no obligation to answer questions, fix problems, or in any way help out after their "deliverable" has shipped and been signed off on. Whereas my approach has always been that I would do my best to provide assistance even if you call me 10 years after my work was completed (and yes, I've fielded calls ten years later.)

Turbo

04-03-2005, 19:30

What we have with CA is a classic business study of how not to conduct business. Take a successful product line with a strong customer following. Release a new product with shoddy quality then refuse to address/recify the quality after customers complain. There are dozens of companies that followed this same pattern, adopted arrogance, then went under as their customer base fled. The once mighty Avalon Hill and SSI are prime examples.

Blaming Activision for the situation is ridicious. CA is the developer with the reputation on the line.

Marcus Maxentius

04-03-2005, 19:55

look at gamespy's mailbag section. Talks all about games being rushed out the door. They mention Activision and how they hurt developers with their bloated business model. They release too many crappy games and then use the revenue from one popular game to cover their losses. There was an example of Troika which designed Vampire the Masquerade game with the HL2 engine. They were given a set development time for the game, but it still had a lot of bugs. The games released had to be delayed until HL2 came out. They could've done extra work now that they had time, but there was no money from Activision for the patch. But they do say the blame is on both sides. Like developers often think too big and have way too big hopes for their game and that creates bugs. This might be the case with CA

sik1977

04-03-2005, 20:10

Sure, I'm not disputing the history. I'm just looking for a reason. Is it because that's what they're contracted for? Is it because they believe they can fix everything with one patch?

I guess I'm looking to see who my ire should be directed towards. If it's part of the contract with Activision, then that's who's to blame. If it's simply that CA believes they've fixed the bugs they need to fix, then it would be CA's fault. It's an important issue for the future, now that they are owned by Sega, because if it was Activision's fault, then we can reasonably hope that things will improve. But if it's CA's idea, then changing publishers isn't going to help.

Bh

Just wanted to point out and clarify, that SEGA not only is the future publisher for CA, but has also acquired CA in the sense one company buys 50%+ shares in another company and takes over its management. Thus CA is now a subsidiary of SEGA. Activision was simply a publisher, and the right and duties of parties (Actvi. & CA) were contractual in nature.

And I do clearly remember reading Shogun's post on .com after he released the readme file before the release of the Patch 1.2, where he clearly said this would be the last patch. In fact lots of patrons questioned the 'last patch' policy at the time and showed concerns about an eventuality where the 'last patch' may introduce fresh problems specially due to the large number of changes and fixes in the patch. However, CA never responded to any of those concerns.

Hope it clears a few things.

Bhruic

04-03-2005, 20:25

Just wanted to point out and clarify, that SEGA not only is the future publisher for CA, but has also acquired CA in the sense one company buys 50%+ shares in another company and takes over its management. Thus CA is now a subsidiary of SEGA. Activision was simply a publisher, and the right and duties of parties (Actvi. & CA) were contractual in nature.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But that in no way addresses the issue of patch responsibility.

And I do clearly remember reading Shogun's post on .com after he released the readme file before the release of the Patch 1.2, where he clearly said this would be the last patch. In fact lots of patrons questioned the 'last patch' policy at the time and showed concerns about an eventuality where the 'last patch' may introduce fresh problems specially due to the large number of changes and fixes in the patch. However, CA never responded to any of those concerns.

I've seen plenty of "I remember", but no actual evidence. I mean, someone else's recollection of that statement was that he said something like it was "hopefully" the last patch, or something to that effect.

I'd still like to see a definitive quote.

Bh

player1

04-03-2005, 20:54

Well, didn't they said that there will be no patches for MTW:VI, but it did got patch later, after all.

Simetrical

04-03-2005, 22:00

I've seen plenty of "I remember", but no actual evidence. I mean, someone else's recollection of that statement was that he said something like it was "hopefully" the last patch, or something to that effect.Shogun made a number of statements, some clearer than others.

I'd still like to see a definitive quote.So would I, personally, so I could show it to those who didn't see it firsthand.

-Simetrical

Uso Da Namu

04-04-2005, 01:08

If i had visited the forum and got to know about the "siege loadgame bug"; then i would never had broght R:TW .

i been given up after reading the answers from the CA guys, and, well yes, i lost hope of ever getting it fixed.

i will wait for HoMM5 ; the elderscoll 4: oblivion. and AOE 3.

i'm signing off... what a tragic end to my love for the game...

Captain Fishpants

04-04-2005, 14:51

This is awful, truly awful. I can't understand how they are claiming that this isn't a bug. Almost as bad as when MikeB tried to blame the problem on the RTR mod.

...

Actually, I didn't blame the RTR mod. A number of hasty individuals chose to read my words that way. The usual system of "ooh, look what I think he said..." then did the rest.

What I did was offer an opinion that installing a mod meant that you should look to your own resources for help after installing it. No company can ever track the mods that are done to its games.

I also made clear the modders do a damn fine job in modding. And just in case anyone else chooses to snip out chunks of this and post it elsewhere let's make this really clear: THE MODDERS DO A GOOD JOB.

But hey - don't let that screw up a perfectly good urban legend of CA being heartless bastards. ~:)

Bhruic

04-04-2005, 15:28

You very clearly and succinctly stated "RTR introduced this bug". Twist all you want, that doesn't even come close to equaling "we don't support mods".

Bh

Old Celt

04-04-2005, 15:31

"I also made clear the modders do a damn fine job in modding. And just in case anyone else chooses to snip out chunks of this and post it elsewhere let's make this really clear: THE MODDERS DO A GOOD JOB.

But hey - don't let that screw up a perfectly good urban legend of CA being heartless bastards." - Captain Fishpants

Captain Fishpants: You still don't seem to get it do you? People are pleading for a definitive answer to what you intend to do about the save/load bug. Is that not clear enough for you? Other issues pale in significance. Are you going to support your work or not? If you and your cohorts choose to maintain a "silence is golden" policy on bugs, then reasonable people will have to think you intend to do nothing. I just want to get it straight from you.

This isn't about urban legends or taking things personally. This is about maturity, professionalism and business ethics. This is clearly a question of whether or not certain people have the moral fortitude to simply do what they know is right and damn the consequences. You have NO right to be unhappy that people have discovered and validated through testing, bugs which you surely knew were there!! So you don't lament you tried to pull a fast one, just that you got caught?

Quietus

04-04-2005, 16:09

Hey Captain Fishpants,

For not commenting on the bug (which I think you edited out). Wouldn't it be easier to just say if there will be a patch 1.3 (yes or no)?

Also, the "comment":

the BUG is YOU not the GAME. by one of the Admin at the .COM forum

ruins CA's customer service reputation.
insults the intelligence of just about any Total War player.

Jambo

04-04-2005, 16:41

drone

04-04-2005, 17:34

Anyone get the feeling that we're constantly going round in circles? For the sake of community peace and my sanity, I wish that Captain FP had posted something more worthwhile rather than simply fueling the many fires of frustration. *sigh*
True. A yes/no answer on the patch, or at least a acknowledgement or explanation of the loadgame "feature", would have been nice. All he managed to do in that post was apologize to the modders for any offence, state the obvious (install a mod at your own risk), and leave us wondering.

The silence has me thinking there is a corporate gag-order in effect on any new R:TW work (patches or expansion). :lipsrsealed2: This has the feel of being too deliberate. If they can't talk about any new R:TW work, can they at least verify that they can't say anything? Blink once for yes, twice for no. ~D

player1

04-04-2005, 17:36

I guess he is not allowed to give an answer, simple as that.

While we postsers have no others to report to when making our own statements, every statement posted to someone from CA, is considered official, and thus some things just can't be answered, without permission.

Exempt if you want to lose job of course.

Captain Fishpants

04-04-2005, 17:37

Anyone get the feeling that we're constantly going round in circles? For the sake of community peace and my sanity, I wish that Captain FP had posted something more worthwhile rather than simply fueling the many fires of frustration. *sigh*

Jambo, I'm afraid that in the current febrile atmosphere anything I say will be taken out of context, reinterpreted and hurled back with some invective editorialising. I only have to look at the comments that came after my (I thought fair) correction of misinformation. That the misinterpretaion was immediately repeated only makes me realise that I was wasting the effort. So consider this a posting more in sorrow than anything else...

So it doesn't matter what I say, it'll be taken wrongly by some, IMO. It's certainly an odd situation for many, I'm sure, that people who supposedly like our products take such pleasure in picking fights. There are people who delight in thinking the worst and there doesn't seem to be any way of reaching them.

But I'll try one more time: CA doesn't have a policy of ignoring its customers. People do come and read threads, both here and at .com, even if they don't reply to them. Given the negative reaction that I've received here (again), I can see why they wouldn't.

There are developers who visit the .com forums daily. They do occasionally post too, although as has been made obvious with the comments about TorquemadaUK's words, anything will be seized on and cast in the worst possible light both there and elsewhere.

There is a policy at the .com forums to keep them orderly. Then again, we have published a game that carries T or 12+ certification and have a duty of care to make sure that the forums we pay for stay within those boundaries. And anyone who has been paying attention to UK libel law recently will also know that anonymous posting of defamatory material is no longer a protection: so perhaps by editing posts the moderators may be doing people a favour in the long run.

Finally - and some of you may choose not to believe this, if you wish - I'm not in a position to make any kind of official statement about patches or expansion packs until or unless they have been subject to a formal announcement. Long industry experience means that I'm not inclined to make informal comments on these matters either. This isn't 'fueling the fires of frustration', but *not* providing fuel for those fires. I really can't do anything else here given that there are people who, I believe, actively relish the chance to fan flames.

Bhruic

04-04-2005, 18:23

There are developers who visit the .com forums daily. They do occasionally post too, although as has been made obvious with the comments about TorquemadaUK's words, anything will be seized on and cast in the worst possible light both there and elsewhere.

You know, in general, my inclination is to sympathize with you. As a developer myself, I've had plenty of negative attacks directed my way. Of course, I have the advantage of the fact that no one has paid me for my work - I've done it for free. That gives me a certain moral advantage.

Unfortunately, CA is lacking that moral advantage. That makes it more difficult to empathize. The reality is, what both you and TorquemadaUK have said was at best badly worded. You may have meant something very different than what came across.

But what I consider to be very revealing is the fact that even in such a circumstance, you are still blaming everyone else. Instead of considering the fact that you stated something badly, apologizing, and clarifying what you meant, you've continued to maintain that it's our fault for not somehow divining what you really meant. It's the same attitude we're getting when dealing with this bug. It's not CA's fault, it's the end users fault, because we are dumb and just don't understand how anything works.

So yes, I agree that some people are never going to be satisfied with what you say. The old saying "you can't please everyone" is quite accurate. But it's also an issue of degrees. I think that the number of people becoming dissatisified with certain communications from CA employess is becoming significant.

I realize you're between the proverbial rock and hard place, because to admit that it's a bug would require you to then say whether you are going to patch it or not. And that's a no-win scenario for you. So I don't blame you for choosing to say nothing. But this trend of blaming the users isn't fair, or helping your PR any.

Bh

Old Celt

04-04-2005, 18:37

Captain Fishpants:

The SEGA representative over at .com said CA would be the source to speak with us. If you aren't the one to make "official" policy statements on patches or expansion, then kindly tell us who is?

It is sad to see that you take a simple request for customer service over legitimate issues as "hurling invective", and "fanning the flames" etc. As far as liking your product, I do like it. I wouldn't take the time to play it every day if I didn't. Your responses remind me of a U2 concert I went to long ago: the band played a couple obscure songs then dropped behind stage. They milked the audience for applause to get about 15 "encores" which really should have been the concert to begin with. That is arrogance. I was already in the parking lot by the time the crowd could coax them back to play something they wanted to hear.

You know, I think the only thing that really frustrates CA is that they can't silence every critic on this website like they can over at the .com. The implied legal action threat was a nice touch, too. That's bound to help the situation.

"There are developers who visit the .com forums daily. They do occasionally post too, although as has been made obvious with the comments about TorquemadaUK's words, anything will be seized on and cast in the worst possible light both there and elsewhere." - Captain Fishpants

Well, gee! One of your CA staff tells us that "YOU are the Bug", in response to proof that there is a problem, and you try to martyr yourself by saying "anything will be seized on and cast in the worst possible light both there and elsewhere." I'm sorry. Was there a better light that a major bug could be cast in? :dizzy2:

tai4ji2x

04-04-2005, 18:46

Well, gee! One of your CA staff tells us that "YOU are the Bug", in response to proof that there is a problem

actually, just to clarify again, killemall54 is NOT a CA staff member, just an overly judgemental/condescending/arrogant forum administrator, lawyer, and a stockholder of Activision to boot. :puke:

drone

04-04-2005, 19:06

I guess that was 2 blinks (thanks pyj99):
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=24377.topic

The company line: it's not a bug. So there will be no patch for it.

The developers' real opinions will be determined when the expansion is released. If this "feature" is still present, they truly don't consider it a bug. if it's gone, they felt it was unacceptable. We will see what we see.

player1

04-04-2005, 19:10

posted by The Shogun:

Hi Guys

I had had a long talk with the developers and what you are about to read is considered as our definitive view on the matter. Some of you are not going to be happy with it and some are. But we will close this thread off in the main R:TW board as I don't think we are going to achieve any more than we have already. Before some of you start accusing us of ripping you off and not caring about the community a lot of time has been spent here looking in to this matter and this is the conclusion we have arrived at. However, we will take all of your comments and feedback into consideration with regards to other games in the TW series and any expansions. All of your comments were read (as always). So...

There's been good sense - and some nonsense - posted here about a reload bug that is supposed to be a gamebreaker for RTW. Supposedly, as soon as a saved game is loaded *all* existing sieges are lifted by the AI, and this spoils the game for a particularly vocal sub-set of players. In a few cases (as a proportion of the whole number of games being played) all sieges will be lifted.

However, to describe this as a gamebreaker is a little unfair, and a misunderstanding of the game's AI. What's actually happening is more subtle than the doomsayers would have you believe. The AI does a regular reasssement about the best use for its forces. If one or more armies are engaged in a siege and it decides that there is a higher priority usage for them elsewhere it will lift the siege and use them somewhere else. The player might not understand why this is happening, but often the reasons for the AI acting this way may be covered by the fog of war - a Gallic siege might have to be lifted because the Gauls have suddenly come under attack by the Britons, for example, but the player can't 'see' this happening.

There are also another reasons to lift a siege. It simply doesn't have to be carried to a conclusion to be damaging. Trade is halted and the happiness of a beseiged settlement also suffers. Building and training in the settlement are halted. The province may be devastated by the army's presence. The enemy's attention is concentrated on the besieged settlement, and he/it may weaken a position elsewhere in a relief action.

All of this explains why the AI is quite prepared to lift sieges and move armies after a couple of turns spent on the task, even when a save game hasn't been loaded. It simply has better things to do with them after it has done one of its periodic reassessments of its position.

It so happens that when a saved game is loaded, the AI does a reassessment of its position, decides what is relevant, and then acts. This doesn't mean that the game is broken, merely that the AI is doing its job at that moment. And this is where the statistical bit comes in. Like many strategy games RTW has a probabalistic element to the outcome of events. There is a tendency for events in the game to unfold in the same way, given the same initial starting conditions, but there are no guarantees that this will happen. There will - over the hundreds of thousands of games that are played - be some occasions when the AI decides to lift its sieges. There will also be times when the AI does not consider that lifting a siege is acceptable. It's also worth pointing out that - because the game has now been played many, many, many times, that events such as the lifting of all sieges have now appeared at one extreme of the conceptual bell curve of probable outcomes. There are now so many games being played by so many players that this does happen, but statistically that's almost what you'd expect; that 'many' is a small proportion of the total number of games being played.

It's also a consequence of getting the AI to look after its interests during play. After all, many players review their overall position when reloading a game, send armies to new destinations, decide that a siege isn't worth pursuing, or simply reassign attack priorities in the light of their strategic reassessment. The decision was made that this was a reasonable and sensible thing for the AI to do as well: the loading of a game seemed like a good point to get the AI to sit back and go "hmmm... what's happening?... maybe those guys should be doing something more useful..."

Old Celt

04-04-2005, 19:14

Here is Shogun's post giving the definitive answer that Captain Fishpants didn't have the authority to give:

"Hi Guys

I had had a long talk with the developers and what you are about to read is considered as our definitive view on the matter. Some of you are not going to be happy with it and some are. But we will close this thread off in the main R:TW board as I don't think we are going to achieve any more than we have already. Before some of you start accusing us of ripping you off and not caring about the community a lot of time has been spent here looking in to this matter and this is the conclusion we have arrived at. However, we will take all of your comments and feedback into consideration with regards to other games in the TW series and any expansions. All of your comments were read (as always). So...

There's been good sense - and some nonsense - posted here about a reload bug that is supposed to be a gamebreaker for RTW. Supposedly, as soon as a saved game is loaded *all* existing sieges are lifted by the AI, and this spoils the game for a particularly vocal sub-set of players. In a few cases (as a proportion of the whole number of games being played) all sieges will be lifted.

However, to describe this as a gamebreaker is a little unfair, and a misunderstanding of the game's AI. What's actually happening is more subtle than the doomsayers would have you believe. The AI does a regular reasssement about the best use for its forces. If one or more armies are engaged in a siege and it decides that there is a higher priority usage for them elsewhere it will lift the siege and use them somewhere else. The player might not understand why this is happening, but often the reasons for the AI acting this way may be covered by the fog of war - a Gallic siege might have to be lifted because the Gauls have suddenly come under attack by the Britons, for example, but the player can't 'see' this happening.

There are also another reasons to lift a siege. It simply doesn't have to be carried to a conclusion to be damaging. Trade is halted and the happiness of a beseiged settlement also suffers. Building and training in the settlement are halted. The province may be devastated by the army's presence. The enemy's attention is concentrated on the besieged settlement, and he/it may weaken a position elsewhere in a relief action.

All of this explains why the AI is quite prepared to lift sieges and move armies after a couple of turns spent on the task, even when a save game hasn't been loaded. It simply has better things to do with them after it has done one of its periodic reassessments of its position.

It so happens that when a saved game is loaded, the AI does a reassessment of its position, decides what is relevant, and then acts. This doesn't mean that the game is broken, merely that the AI is doing its job at that moment. And this is where the statistical bit comes in. Like many strategy games RTW has a probabalistic element to the outcome of events. There is a tendency for events in the game to unfold in the same way, given the same initial starting conditions, but there are no guarantees that this will happen. There will - over the hundreds of thousands of games that are played - be some occasions when the AI decides to lift its sieges. There will also be times when the AI does not consider that lifting a siege is acceptable. It's also worth pointing out that - because the game has now been played many, many, many times, that events such as the lifting of all sieges have now appeared at one extreme of the conceptual bell curve of probable outcomes. There are now so many games being played by so many players that this does happen, but statistically that's almost what you'd expect; that 'many' is a small proportion of the total number of games being played.

It's also a consequence of getting the AI to look after its interests during play. After all, many players review their overall position when reloading a game, send armies to new destinations, decide that a siege isn't worth pursuing, or simply reassign attack priorities in the light of their strategic reassessment. The decision was made that this was a reasonable and sensible thing for the AI to do as well: the loading of a game seemed like a good point to get the AI to sit back and go "hmmm... what's happening?... maybe those guys should be doing something more useful..." - Shogun on Total War.com

Gee, the volunteer mods have the authority to issue official policy statements now, and the devs do not! Interesting...

Shogun's post is a pretty good piece of propaganda, if offered for that purpose. Never mind that players have lifted FOW to test what threats were there. Never mind that players have made saves and played through to see what would happen, then loaded from the save and the sieges would be lifted, and this can be reproduced 100% of the time. Especially never mind that if you save and load on every turn from start of game, the AI will NEVER capture any settlements. You see, all the info about this is edited, deleted, locked, or moved over at the .com so only the happy explanation given by Shogun appears up front. They know most people won't dig any further than that.

Here's my translation of Shogun's post:

1. There never was a bug, it is a feature (and a good one, too)
2. Your reproducible testing means nothing, you don't understand probability theory, see #1.
3. Those of you who have taken the time to test and publish your results are not worthy of CA respect. Plebs have no voice in the CA ivory tower. The decisions made by the campaign AI are far beyond ordinary mortal comprehension.
4. We intend to do nothing about the bug, err, uhm, "feature" (see #1) unless we feel like fixing, err, changing it for the expansion, or next installment of Total War.
5. Those of you with complaints are just a trivial minority. We know most people aren't as smart as you appear to be. Who really cares if so few people have recognized this bug, err, feature?

Yes, it all plays great in the censored world of .com. But here, we can refute the nonsense in Shogun's post, and have already done so. We are free to take this evidence to any media outlet we choose, and then CA may have to answer for this to people whose opinions they DO respect.

player1

04-04-2005, 19:16

As far as I understand CA developers dodged the issue by saying that AI reasseses the situation after the load, and thus somtimes liftes the seiges.

But, since AI never does offensive action in turn after realod (including taking unwalled cities), that can only lead to reassessment algorithm that gets initiated after reload is buggy.

How elase to explain that AI factions will never (100%) expand if you only play 1 turn per session?

However, we will take all of your comments and feedback into consideration with regards to other games in the TW series and any expansions. All of your comments were read (as always). So...

And this quote shows that there will be no patches for this issue in RTW.

Pretty sad, since this stupid bug drasticly reduces preformance of AI for everyone who doesn't play the game for at least several hours (confirmed so many times).

Bhruic

04-04-2005, 19:50

It so happens that when a saved game is loaded, the AI does a reassessment of its position, decides what is relevant, and then acts.

Of course! I see it now. The loading from saved game is a feature. It's the normal game that's bugged.

I mean, if the AI decides to stop sieging when you load a game, it's because it did a reassessment that told it to move its troops elsewhere. But when you hit end turn, you obviously don't get that reassessment. That means the end turn button is bugged.

We should all demand that CA fix this glaring bug, and make the end turn button do a reassessment properly. I mean, that would fix the game, and make sure those nasty AI never did anything offensive.

It was supposed to be Rome: Total Boredom, wasn't it? :rolleyes:

Bh

therother

04-04-2005, 20:06

Here is Shogun's post giving the definitive answer that Captain Fishpants didn't have the authority to give:

[snip]

Gee, the volunteer mods have the authority to issue official policy statements now, and the devs do not! Interesting... The Shogun is a CA web marketing manager and administrator of the .COM forums, not a volunteer. Captain Fishpants (MikeB on the .COM forums) is a game designer. Neither is really in a position to be able to definitively speak for RTW's programmers off their own bat. Which is no doubt why The Shogun says that he had a, " long talk with the developers".

As for the response itself, yes it's disappointing that they have chosen to restrict their answer to only part of the non-issue that members have been reporting, but not entirely unexpected. If they refuse to even see, much less test, the non-issue at its fullest extent, then there was never going to be much hope for a patch for this non-issue alone. Of course, there are plenty of other such non-issues with 1.2...

I expect they will quietly re-evaluate how the game recalculates AI priorities, resolving this non-issue for the XP. And that is as polite as I can express this, without seizing on CA's response, casting it in the worst possible light, and indulging in some invective editorialising, as is my wont as a paying customer of CA.

player1

04-04-2005, 20:07

Well said Bhruic! ~:cheers:

player1

04-04-2005, 20:19

I wonder if we could issue some sort of protest for whole disregard of the problem.

Like all unofficial forums chaning color to black for few days and adding problem in the news sectoion of their sites.

P.S.
Or it would be too risky (like CA staff not posting in such forums in the future)?

Jambo

04-04-2005, 20:25

The evidence that DimeBagHo presented and you yourself Player 1 was absolutely staggering. What amazes me is that throughout all this, never once has CA ever provided any raw evidence to the contrary?! Their position is based solely on a theoretical premise of what the AI is supposed to do!

We've had no comment on why protectorates are always accepted on the first turn after loading a game?

We've had no comment on why no cities will change hands if the game is saved and and reloaded on each consecutive turn?

We've had no comment on why the AI expands at a perceived normal rate when no reloading is performed?

The evidence provided by the very simple steps that DimeBagHo and player1 took to prove otherwise has fallen on the deafest of ears! They have not answered any of the questions raised, rather they've simply reiterated what processes the AI goes through for making its decisions each turn, ones we're already very aware of. It simply does not add up.

Midnight

04-04-2005, 20:31

Depends what you want. Yes, it would jeopardise the relationship with CA on these forums, but if you really feel they're making a big mistake in their handling of this problem (not 'feature' - this is a problem) then it's probably a good idea. Personally, I'm all in favour of some form of peaceful (ie categorically no flaming, spamming or other such idiocy) protest - just a simple thing like a temporary colour-change and a notice on the News page might be in order.

Only, of course, if the majority of the .org felt inclined to back such a measure.

player1

04-04-2005, 20:35

Maybe some sort of poll is in order.

I'm for it, but only if both twcenter and org agree on it.

Jambo

04-04-2005, 20:51

Bhruic, such a good post I'm going to honour it with a topic all of its own!

Midnight

04-04-2005, 21:00

A poll isn't a bad idea at all.

Do the .org and TWC want to run with this?

Gregoshi

04-04-2005, 21:12

You know, I think the only thing that really frustrates CA is that they can't silence every critic on this website like they can over at the .com.

Maybe so, but you are still bound by the rules of this forum and from what I've read in this thread today, those rules have been badly bruised if not out-and-out broken.

And as for the official and unofficial comments made by CA patrons here and at .com being interpreted as "insulting our intelligence", just go back in these forums (and I'm sure others) months before RTW even came out to see who was insulting whose intelligence from that time period to the present. And today the CA patrons have been called liars and worse. Remember the saying: "when you point your finger at someone, three are pointing back at you."

Now to try to divert this to something more productive, there is an obvious disconnect between what players are seeing and what CA is. Do we know that we are comparing apples to apples? And I'm not refering to mods. Maybe CA is doing something different than the typical gamer that is causing them not to see the problem. Or maybe their work systems are not setup the same way our home systems are. Does the load/save happen at all difficulty levels? What about other game setting? Does it matter when you do the load game? By that I mean, loading from within a running campaign, exiting out to the main menu first, or completely exiting the game and restarting RTW. Are your saves made at the beginning of the turn or at the end of the turn (right before you click on "end turn")? Have you all compared system specs and configurations? Is there a common denominator there? I'm sure there are other variables to consider as well. Maybe by comparing notes you can pin-point the problem so that CA can reproduce the bug. It may also reveal a work around.

You can chose to sit around and whine for weeks on end or you can roll up your sleeves and try to nail down this bug.

Turbo

04-04-2005, 21:33

[QUOTE=Captain Fishpants]...."But I'll try one more time: CA doesn't have a policy of ignoring its customers. People do come and read threads, both here and at .com, even if they don't reply to them. Given the negative reaction that I've received here (again), I can see why they wouldn't."

OMG. When RTW was first released, wasn't Captain Fishpants that sang the praises of the ORG and spoke of its importance in terms of the development of the series? Now he doesn't like the ORG because it gives him honest opinions that aren't heavily censored like the .COM?~:confused:

Users here aren't personally mad at Captain Fishpants, they are fed up with a game in dire need of a patch! Fix the game and the negative reaction will vanish.

therother

04-04-2005, 21:51

You can chose to sit around and whine for weeks on end or you can roll up your sleeves and try to nail down this bug.You are, of course, right Gregoshi. It would indeed be pointless if all the community had been doing was sitting about. The problem is, unfortunately, that many have expended a large amount of their time trying to nail down this bug. And to be honest, I think the efforts of the community were entirely successful, within the limits of what we can be expected to do. Beyond that, we need CA to come in and give us a hand.

IMHO, the community has demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an issue exists. The sheer weight of evidence that something changes when a game is reloaded is simply staggering.

CA's "definitive" response means that they have extensively tested this issue, and found no fault. If this is indeed their final say on the matter, then it is entirely possible that the Expansion Pack will not resolve this issue. But this new response gives little or no concrete evidence to explain many of these observations.

The Shogun talks of a bell-curve. If we can demonstrate, statistically, that there are in fact two distinct Gaussian distributions (one for continuous play, one for reload), then perhaps CA will listen. We can but hope.

In any case, I imagine the TW community will continue its efforts to find a workaround.

player1

04-04-2005, 21:54

Of course! I see it now. The loading from saved game is a feature. It's the normal game that's bugged.

I mean, if the AI decides to stop sieging when you load a game, it's because it did a reassessment that told it to move its troops elsewhere. But when you hit end turn, you obviously don't get that reassessment. That means the end turn button is bugged.

We should all demand that CA fix this glaring bug, and make the end turn button do a reassessment properly. I mean, that would fix the game, and make sure those nasty AI never did anything offensive.

It was supposed to be Rome: Total Boredom, wasn't it? :rolleyes:

Bh

Bhruic, are you the guy who made unofficial patch for MOO3 to fix some glaring errors?

Cruelsader

04-04-2005, 22:17

You can chose to sit around and whine for weeks on end or you can roll up your sleeves and try to nail down this bug.

I guess that you are trying to balance negative reactions but .... why could not CA simply make a request to provide all the information they need to test whether there is a bug? Just out of courtesy, does not even matter whether they have done it before or whether they need the information .... The more I think of, the clearer it becomes to me that CA is in a desperate need for a (more) professional PR.

Finally - and some of you may choose not to believe this, if you wish - I'm not in a position to make any kind of official statement about patches or expansion packs until or unless they have been subject to a formal announcement. Long industry experience means that I'm not inclined to make informal comments on these matters either.

Personally, I am glad for this clear statement. I wish there were more like it.

And I would be even happier to see more posts like this. (Plus, I strongly believe that such communication would make reading the forum less frustrating experience for CA staff.)

Will there be an expansion?

Why wouldnt there be one?
Dont expect me to tell you what it is though. ~:)

Will we continue making "Total War" games?

Of course.
Why would we be so stupid as to knock a good thing on the head? ~:confused:
As above, don't expect me to tell you what the next version will be.
Just take it from us that it will be great and it will knock any competition in to a hat. ~:cool:

Do we care about the quality of our games?

Yes. Deeply.
I can't think of any other reason for the amount of time and work we put in to producing our games.
We would all rather make great games than work in a dull 9-5 office or produce "run of the mill clones".
I, as do many here, smile ruefully when certain people suggest we don't care or that monkey typists could do better. ~:confused: Perhaps this comes about from a misunderstanding of just how many and how complex the mechanisms we put in place are, to get the game to a playable state, let alone the polished state we like to aim for.
As we live in a real world, we have to deal with some limitations in terms of money and manpower and thus also in terms of time. The result is that we can miss stuff or get it wrong :embarassed: And for this we are very sorry.

So before you put the boot in any more, pause, take a breath, and think about it.
How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

Dont worry. We wont rest on our laurels. And keep the faith. ~D

Yours sincerely

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff

starkhorn

04-04-2005, 22:32

Actually, I didn't blame the RTR mod. A number of hasty individuals chose to read my words that way. The usual system of "ooh, look what I think he said..." then did the rest.

What I did was offer an opinion that installing a mod meant that you should look to your own resources for help after installing it. No company can ever track the mods that are done to its games.

I also made clear the modders do a damn fine job in modding. And just in case anyone else chooses to snip out chunks of this and post it elsewhere let's make this really clear: THE MODDERS DO A GOOD JOB.

But hey - don't let that screw up a perfectly good urban legend of CA being heartless bastards. ~:)

Well I'm not really going get into a game of "You said, she said, I said etc".....I also can no longer find that thread to refresh my memory....I think it's in the graveyard somewhere now.

Suffice to say that when I first read your post, it seemed that your first sentence in the original post was dismissing someone's thread because they were using RTR mod, thus indirectly blaming the RTR mod for the issue. I do not seem to have been alone in this thought.

As for the rest of the thread, I agree 100%. If I mod a game then it's my responsible for anything that goes wrong. I do not expect any official support from the programmers.

I wrote a modding guide for MTW:VI on how to add a new faction and in this guide I wrote a small disclaimer stating that it was the users own responsible if they tried to mod the game so I agree with you on modder's responsible and the support expected from a company.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=461125#post461125

Oh and as for the urban legend comment. Well I certainly never called CA heartless b$@$%%@. I'm disappointed with RTW and the AI "re-assess feature" but at least we no longer need to suffer in silence. We at least know CA's stance on the issue. For that CA deserve some credit.

Cheers
Starkhorn

Bhruic

04-04-2005, 22:37

You can chose to sit around and whine for weeks on end or you can roll up your sleeves and try to nail down this bug.

I'll go with door number 3 please.

Seriously, CA has given us their definitive response. Of what use is continued efforts? Once someone has made up their mind about something, you aren't going to change it. CA apparently has made up their mind that this isn't a bug. Short of pointing out where the problem lies in the source code, I'm not sure what more you think the community could have done to document this bug?

Bhruic, are you the guy who made unofficial patch for MOO3 to fix some glaring errors?

Yeah, that's me.

But in case you were going to ask, no I'm not going to get involved in a similar effort here. Once is enough.

Bh

Red Harvest

04-04-2005, 22:44

As for modding to fix this the only relevant question I have:

Is there a switch that tells the AI not to consider the past upon reload; or is it merely the act of not recording sufficient info that thereby forces it to become an Alzheimer's patient?

If it is the latter, then there is unlikely any hope for a mod. If on the other hand the info is stored in the save game and there is a switch for accessing it, then we have a chance of fixing this somehow.

I suggest we rename this the Alzheimer's feature.

Midnight

04-04-2005, 22:51

If the bug hasn't been 'nailed down' by now, I don't know what it'll take. No, CA aren't listening. IMO, their response to this is nothing short of disgraceful - how can this 'non-aggression', 'protectorate-accepting' behaviour be considered normal? Unless, of course, they actually planned it to work exactly as it does, in which case I think it was an astonishingly bad design decision.

Could it be they simply couldn't be bothered coding a feature to save the AI's state? Note: I'm doing nothing more than speculating.

If people don't register their displeasure, CA will surely do nothing, as is their stated intention.

Tricon

04-04-2005, 23:06

But in case you were going to ask, no I'm not going to get involved in a similar effort here. Once is enough.

Bh

Fair is fair.
Just know that there (still) are a lot of people out there who thank you for that effort, bruhic. Your efforts (and other modders, of course) made that game fun. Right now, I don't play it because I lack the time, and that is coincidently EXACTLY the reason why this "loadgame feature" ticks me off.

Sorry for the OT.
Anyway, high you all. I've been lurking heresince the beginning of this year, but I never got around to register. Obviously this has changed now. I'm looking forward to some nice conversations...

Kraxis

04-04-2005, 23:13

Actually a silent protest along the lines of a black frontpage with a smiley (or something else) with its head hung low would in fact make the point much better than any kind of discussing the issue.
But at the same time we would need to be almost entirely silent about the whole issue, besides perhaps making more tests, with no emotional outbursts.

There is nothing more effective than the sad look and then silence. But that effect would be ruined when somebody choose to scream at a dev or make a rant about the issue. Thus I think such a protest is impossible here or any fansite for almost any game.

Since we have gotten to the point that the two sides are very much set in their oppinions, I think we need people who have yet to voice anything in this matter to enter, people who have a history of being silent. If a number of them can produce images of the strategic map around 200BC looking like the starting game or worse (rebelling cities can still happen) then a point would have been made.
If it happens to be those who has been most vocal we run the risk of getting dismissed as wanting to see the bad side or perhaps worse of creating the images.

It is indeed a very sad post by the Shogun. But even if CA has understood the problem (which I hardly think they haven't) then what else can they do if they have used up their quota of patches? Silence hasn't worked, perhaps dismissal will... If they said that it was indeed a bug and then mentioned that there won't be any patch to fix it, then what would we be seeing now? An even worse reaction.
Personally this has confirmed to me that there is a quota of patches, and it has been used up. And sadly this also makes me realize that we won't get an official yet unfunded patch like the one we got after VI (yes that was made in the sparetime).

On the positive side, as I mentioned I think they have recognized the issue but can't say that, they will silently fix it in the expansion. Who would notice? We could say that now the AI doesn't lift all the sieges, but if they refuse the issue was ever there how could they have fixed it? Thus they don't have to explain anything.

All in all I read the statement to say:
No more patches prior to the expansion.
We have noticed the problem but we can't resolve it as per a patch.
We will most likely fix it in the expansion.