View Full Version : Discovery Channel - Roman city possibly found in China!
Rubber Ducky
03-17-2005, 15:44
Hi all! Discovery Channel featured something last night some of you might be interested in :
A Roman city is suspected to have existed in northwest China around 55 BC. It was discovered by a Chinese researcher while digging through Chinese cities names when he stumbled upon the name "Li Jian" (pronounced as "Lee Jien"). Li Jian was the ancient Chinese name for the Roman Empire. The present day Li Jian is a village with a very special feature - in it there's a monument which is of Roman design. The Chinese villagers built it recently and claimed that it is for their heritage and ancestors. Most villagers have striking similiar features of a white European althought they're all Chinese.
Written Chinese records showed an interesting encounter by the Chinese army during around that period. The Chinese empire was at war with a northwestern barbarian tribe known as the Hsiung Nu. The Chinese army under a colonel was dispatched to wipe out the tribe. The Chinese succeeded in eliminating the barbarian's stronghold and then the colonel noticed something very unusual - the barbarian tribe had their infantry formation similiar to the "testudo". The Chinese called it the "fish scale" formation. In the colonel's report to the Emperor, he mentioned this fact (thus it was officially recorded) and also mentioned that the barbarians fortified their stronghold with double palisides, a feature known to be Roman and not of Asian.
Historically the Hsiung Nu were a nomadic cavalry based tribe (very similiar to the Huns and Mongols). They have fought on horseback all their lives and would never have bothered to fortify their positions, much less invent foot infantry formations. Historians and researchers believed there had to be external influence on the tribe.
Excavations in the area revealed nothing in Roman in origin. Bone remains are inconclusive. There are metal helmet fragments with cravings "An Chao" suggests those are captured prisoners.
An Italian research have been doing research and visiting the village for over then years. He has an explanation that could provide the answer. When the Roman Empire invaded Parthia, it suffered the worst military defeat in the desert (sounds familiar? :), 20,000 Roman troops when and about 10,000 were taken prisoners. The prisoners became slaves, and were driven into Asia Minor to a city named Merv (which is present day northern Afghanisthan) .
The researcher retraced the supposedly steps of the Romans along the silk road. It was in Merv archeologists found Roman coins, suggesting Romans indeed had been there. It is believed the Romans were further driven into northern China by their captors. It was in Li Jian that the Romans hired out themselves as mercenaries. They were hired by the tribes to fight against the Chinese. They were captured by the Chinese (hence the craving "An Chao") and offered positions to defend the northern Chinese border. Eventually they settled down and intergrated into the Chinese empire.
Explaining why there were no Roman artifacts at dig sites. The site has been opened to public only recently and furthermore, the Romans being prisoners were definitely not allowed to retain their original weapons. Instead they would be supplied by local arms.
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Unfortunately I did not have time to finish watching the entire documentary
:( Oh well hopefully there's a replay tonight...and interesting event!
Coins does not mean any Romans had been there. Back then coins were often coins and given the local value. So a Roman 'as' could easily be used in China or the far north of Europe (which they were).
But I do not find this little story impossible.
For instance we have the Roman empire exporting about 5000 Sarmatian heavy cavalry to Britannia. Why others souldn't do it I can't fathom.
Browning
03-17-2005, 19:34
"were driven to Asia Minor to a city called Merv (...) in a present-day Afghanistan".
This explains a lot about the veracity of this "discovery".
"Roman coins... Romans must have been there" - Just like me carrying Croat money makes me a Croat. Very scientific.
Interesting idea, most if not all the evidence is entirely coincedental... along the same lines as 'we found a vase that's a similar shape to Roman vases in Mexico, therefore the Romans might have visited Mexico' but its a good story if nothing else.
Good story, and plausible. The ancient world was very well connected, a fact we tend to forget. For instance, in Marco Polo's book, he mentions Christians in what is now China. Recent finds have placed Nestorian Christians in the areas that Polo talked about.
I would not be all that surprised if a Roman vase found its way to Mexico. After all, it could have been carried by a conquistador.
Good story, and plausible. The ancient world was very well connected, a fact we tend to forget. For instance, in Marco Polo's book, he mentions Christians in what is now China. Recent finds have placed Nestorian Christians in the areas that Polo talked about.
I would not be all that surprised if a Roman vase found its way to Mexico. After all, it could have been carried by a conquistador.
Well yeah but that's all a bit later than the Romans we're talking about isn't it? It's difficult to gauge just how well Rome and China knew/cared about each other at the time we're talking about, obviously they knew of each other's existence, just a small matter of the Himalyas and a lot of desert stood in the way. Still if Indian princes were prepared to visit Augustus to pledge their alleigence to him, its entirely possible for Roman p.o.w's to end up in China I would have though
I believe I once heared about some (maybe only one) Roman embassador visiting China. I at least now for sure that it was a Syrian in Roman employment who was sent to China to find the secret of making silk, which he found and since then silk was produced in Europe as well (mostly on Sicily, I believe), but this was in the very late Eastern Empire, so it's not really relevant here.
The coins don't strike me as evidence at all. In Scandinavia, many arab coins are found, but that's not because so many arabs went to the cold north. Instead, the vikings went south and brought the coins back. Therefore, I think, coins do not imply any fysical appearance, just some form of economical contact. So if Roman coins are found at the Silk Road, that strikes me as perfectly logical. Actually, it would have been more strange if they never would have found any at all, since the Silk Road was back then thé main road between China and Europe, even though hardly anybody went down it the entire way. :book:
However, the story doesn't sound entirely unconvincing to my ears. I actually often enjoy Discovery Channel, but I really can't take all their "historical" programs serious (Has anybody ever seen, for example, that program "Atlantis", in which that 'scientist' claims that the piramids, Angkor and several other monuments were build according to the stars, as well as him claiming that Atlantis in fact was on Antarctica? Hilarious! :dizzy2: )
However I am a rather conservative historian myself, so my judgement may be colored.
But I think that Discovery makes some 'discoveries' appear too soon on tv, so that if someone thinks of a radical theory he has to make it sound 'believable' far to soon...as soon as he thinks of another possibility or some new discovery has made his theory out-of-date again, it is too late, and that's probably why these specific programs often dissappear completely after a while, even though they usually do not have a big problem with showing a program over and over again... ~D
Anyway I'm curious to see the program for myself and hearing something more about it, who knows...
GAH!
Vanya remembers this...
Vanya sez... There was a battle in Asia Minor... Crassus trying to outwit himself, gets annihilated by Parthians. But, one of the cohorts got lost en route to battle, and survived. They became mercs... ronin... hired blades...
Eventually, they find their way to Li Jian, where the city was under siege. They appeared and the besiegers ran away like whipped dogs!
Defenders were sooo happy, they offered their town to their saviors.
And they offered Vanya much tribute and many offerings. And Vanya was happy... for a while.
But, then the economy went sour, the shield manufacturing jobs moved to the Yangtze, and the administrative jobs moved to India. And there was no longer a need for Vanya to stay around. So, Vanya left for greener pastures to collect more heads!
And that is the bonafide true history of Rome in China!
GAH!
Brutus that was not one person, I don't know if it wasSyrians, but it was two monks sent by Constantine or Justinian I think. They grabbed a lot of moth-grubs and hid them in their garments (the secret of silkmaking was very jealously guarded). And so it went... If you want to believe it.
I just have a hard time believing that the two monks were able to grab enough grubs, and have them survive the trip, to make a sustainable population of them in Europe.
Jacque Schtrapp
03-18-2005, 00:20
But, then the economy went sour, the shield manufacturing jobs moved to the Yangtze, and the administrative jobs moved to India. And there was no longer a need for Vanya to stay around. So, Vanya left for greener pastures to collect more heads!
And that is the bonafide true history of Rome in China!
GAH!
Works for me.
:bow:
.
SigniferOne
03-18-2005, 00:43
Grrrr, you say this wonderful show is on Discovery Channel? Where?
http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/schedule.jsp?dd=16&mm=03&yyyy=2005&channel=DSC
I hate how I always hear of these great Discovery Channel shows, but they are never on MY Discovery Channel.
HarunTaiwan
03-18-2005, 04:19
The Economist magazine's end of the year edition had a story on this.
The archeology is tenuous and the city in question is milking it to become a tourist destination.
That said, nothing is impossible.
"Li Jian" (pronounced as "Lee Jien").
Sounds like "legion" to me!
Rubber Ducky
03-18-2005, 06:25
Hi guys,
There is much more story behind this. I admit I do not have the time nor energy to keep typing on ~:) What I posted was just a short summary. I did not finish watching it, and I find it almost impossible that this would happen. But anything is possible in this world. I would want to watch it again, because it's entertaining ~D
dsyrow1 : I'm in Southeast Asia, Disc Ch is showing in this region. I presume you're not around here?
RollingWave
03-18-2005, 07:46
It's a theory that's been hanging around for some time, though the evidance so far is still way too thin to very convincing.
I'm not quiet sure what Li Jian is translating to Chinese (I"m chinese), as far as I remember the common saying of Roman empire in Han time was Da Qin, though perhaps in ancient tounge it would be different.
Good story, and plausible. The ancient world was very well connected, a fact we tend to forget. For instance, in Marco Polo's book, he mentions Christians in what is now China. Recent finds have placed Nestorian Christians in the areas that Polo talked about.
Marco Polo came to China some 800 + years after the Romans were gone though, and according to most agreed upon sources Nestorian Christians was only brought to China around the Tang dynasty, which was also after the western roman empire died out (founded 618 a.d)
The supposed battle description involving Romans fighting Han chinese also has been highly questioned, as the date seem to be at least 20 years after Crassus's defeat, and at most 100 Legion participated in this battle which would hardly be a incredible presence on a ancient battle field, they were only defended the gates against overwhelming number and led by a rather dumb king that got himself shot by a crossbow at the begining of the seige
Aetius the Last Roman
03-18-2005, 08:10
This claim is false
Yes there have been caucasians skeletons found in China, but these data back as far as four-thousand b.c.
I read the same thing in the Economist and was dismayed after some research to find it incorrect.
This is more likely than not, a gimmick to get more tourists into China.
Browning
03-18-2005, 09:20
Sounds like "legion" to me!
Roger that. Another point for the "veracity" of the story.
The Stranger
03-18-2005, 09:24
Sounds like "legion" to me!
damn i think you're right did't noticed that
PseRamesses
03-18-2005, 10:13
Wouldn´t be surprised at all if they did find Roman artefacts in China. Remember that Alexander, half a century earlier took his entire army to northern Afganistan. The Phoenicians circumsiced (spell?) Africa and traded with Britain. The vikings waged war in the Caucasus and even layed siege on a city on the east side of the Kaspian sea!!!
We tend to portray us as civilized, developed and at the peak of our glory and always sigh with comments like "how did they get by in thoose days?" As archeologists and scientist constantly discover more and more cross-cultural influences from the ancient world I´m not surpised to find Romans in China. Hell, I´ve even been in a cave in Phi-Phi Islands, Thailand, where there are carvings of distinctive viking ships! I do belive that we underestimate the ancient man constantly, remeber that the urge of exploration is a powerful one indeed.
Its called Circumnavigating Africa PseRamesses ~;)
The Storyteller
03-18-2005, 13:34
I know which documentary you are refering to. In fact, it was produced by a Singaporean company.
The basis for the theory rests on the word of an English professor (since deceased). The village in China has the same name that the Chinese used to call Rome - Li Jian. It was also noted that in a battle around the area, the local commander wrote in one of his reports of the Hsiung Nu using a "fish scale formation". The professor conjectured that he was describing the Roman testudo.
Indeed, the inhabitants of the village Li Jian believe strongly that they are descended from Romans. Their local folklore tells of their ancestors being yellow haired barbarians, and the present day inhabitants do indeed have very caucasian features.
The theory is that during one of battles in Parthia, the Romans were defeated and sold into slavery. They were brought further east, where some of them escaped and finally found their way to the western border of China. It's a long journey, but not that long - China's borders extend very far.
Also, if I may add, China and Rome DID know of each other. Li Jien used to be the Chinese term for the Lighthouse at Alexandria, and over time, Li Jen came to be used to refer to the whole of the Roman Empire. Rome and China traded quite extensively, even if they did rely on middle easterners as middlemen.
Anyway, the conclusion in that documentary was that the professor was probably mistaken. He seems to have got the times for the battle with the Hsiung Nu and the battle in Parthia mixed up... I think the interval between them was too long, or the Hsiung Nu battle took place before the one at Parthia or something. As for the caucasian features of the inhabitants, the village, being on China's western border, would have seen a lot of foreigners - steppe horsemen, as well as Iranians and Turks and other Aryans. That's probably where their caucasian blood comes from. The name of the village I think started out as two different characters from the ones used to refer to Rome, but over time, the two got confused, even in China.
In any case, the people of the town still like to believe. It's a nice story.
Well yeah but that's all a bit later than the Romans we're talking about isn't it? It's difficult to gauge just how well Rome and China knew/cared about each other at the time we're talking about, obviously they knew of each other's existence, just a small matter of the Himalyas and a lot of desert stood in the way. Still if Indian princes were prepared to visit Augustus to pledge their alleigence to him, its entirely possible for Roman p.o.w's to end up in China I would have though
Yes it is later. China and Rome knew of each other, but really didn't care that much about each other. Silk trade came much later when silk was popular in the Byzantine court.
lanky316
03-18-2005, 18:50
Interesting idea, most if not all the evidence is entirely coincedental... along the same lines as 'we found a vase that's a similar shape to Roman vases in Mexico, therefore the Romans might have visited Mexico' but its a good story if nothing else.
On a slightly similar note, I remember watching a documentary on Atlantis which leaned towards the idea that the mythological city may actually have been an Aztec city that the Greeks came across by accident. Something to do with the supposed way there pointing to Mexico and the stories about the city being almost identical to Cortéz' stories.
One thing that I know about middle eastern cultures is something that happens when they defeat an enemy army. Their POW's are not released. The defeated enemy army becomes THEIR army. In fact, this has been happening for millenia. It's still happening today even. A formerly Russian army is currently under control of a certain Arab country (can't recall the name) and has been for several years now. The idea that the Parthians might send the Roman survivors to the Far East would only be sensible as it would help deter them from attempting escape...its one hell of a walk back to Rome.
It could hardly have been an Aztec city since the Aztecs didn't even enter the central mexican plateau until around 12-1300 AD.
caesar44
03-18-2005, 19:17
the 2 empires knew each other and even had trade relations , but a roman town in china ? give me a brake
it is true that in 53 bce a roman legion was lost after the battle of carhae , but the survivers settled in parthia and 30 years later came to rome in the 20 bce agreement
the story is fiction like the story about the templers going to america 100 years before columbus
:book:
One thing that I know about middle eastern cultures is something that happens when they defeat an enemy army. Their POW's are not released. The defeated enemy army becomes THEIR army. In fact, this has been happening for millenia. It's still happening today even. A formerly Russian army is currently under control of a certain Arab country (can't recall the name) and has been for several years now. The idea that the Parthians might send the Roman survivors to the Far East would only be sensible as it would help deter them from attempting escape...its one hell of a walk back to Rome.
We pretty much posted the same time I will answer this here. ~:)
The Parthians weren't Middleastern at all. They were of Scythian stock, who in turn was Indo-European, with weight on European. They adopted part of the Persian culture (such as religion and social structure), the Persians themselves were also Indo-European, though of more eastern stock.
I would not dare go to Iran today and claim them to be arabs...
So we can't argue that that was how things was done, since the Persians didn't pull in prisoners. The Parthians might have done it since they were a relatively small part of the population and the strain of warfare could drain them easily.
The Stranger
03-18-2005, 20:39
the 2 empires knew each other and even had trade relations , but a roman town in china ? give me a brake
it is true that in 53 bce a roman legion was lost after the battle of carhae , but the survivers settled in parthia and 30 years later came to rome in the 20 bce agreement
the story is fiction like the story about the templers going to america 100 years before columbus
:book:
yeah and they buried a treasure there, cool story but i don't believe it neither
AntiochusIII
03-18-2005, 23:24
About Discovery Channel thing...I was in SE Asia before. Damn, that Discovery Channel was Good! (If a bit fictitious in some shows.) With all the animals, historical, etc, stories.
Here in the US, all I've ever got from "Discovery Channel" was about motorcycles, house-building, and, guess what? Motorcycles- oh, and Cowboys shooting each other and being called "history."
This just sucks. Barbaric.
About Discovery Channel thing...I was in SE Asia before. Damn, that Discovery Channel was Good! (If a bit fictitious in some shows.) With all the animals, historical, etc, stories.
Here in the US, all I've ever got from "Discovery Channel" was about motorcycles, house-building, and, guess what? Motorcycles- oh, and Cowboys shooting each other and being called "history."No doubt, the US Discovery Channel has declined in quality. They have pawned off the actual "scientific" stuff to the other affiliated Discovery channels (Animal Planet, Discovery Health, etc.). The dumbing down of the nation continues...
Sadly that is becoming the way of Discovery Europe. But at least there is still History Night (though that is becoming a re-runfest). It was brilliant about 4-5 years ago, now there is too much of those Orange County guys... BAH! It has nothing to do with Discovery. I do like Myth Busters though, even if some of them are a bit selfexplainatory.
BeeSting
03-19-2005, 00:53
Hey.... What's wrong with OC guys?
I don't mind watching the OCC guys (nothing wrong with watching men play with tools and fire), but they really shouldn't be on the Discovery Channel. Mythbusters is at least vaguely scientific. And the dead pig in the Corvette episode was classic.
Sounds like we are polluting the airwaves over in Europe. It's a shame we don't get some of the UK shows here in the States, I thought some of them were quite good when I lived over there in 98-99. We get stuck with crappy remakes of the hit shows. Why they decided to remake "Men Behaving Badly" is beyond my comprehension, the original was brilliant. ~D I heard they are going to remake "The Office". Why? Just show the original! If they try to redo "Red Dwarf"...:dizzy2:
The schedules for the 3 main networks here are essentially trainwrecks, a couple of good shows and then a lot of holes/crap. Would it kill them to try to air a European show (maybe syndicated), just for filler? They might find that people like it, and it would probably cost less. There are millions of Python fans over here (Spamalot: The Musical is doing quite well), but the networks don't think that we will "get it".
Sorry, end of rant.
AntiochusIII
03-20-2005, 00:01
Or may be they can just put in Japanese Anime. ~D
Of course, and make several Discovery Shows about it that is actually worth doing: "The Study of Japanese Physiological..blah blah blah..through Anime." Since some of them are really worth it-deep and worldly-far better than Hollywood fests that filled the US market today.
Besides, I like Anime. ~D
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