Formation mod

[The_Mark]

So, I began to do the formation mod..

The basic idea is to create realistic and functioning (within AI limits) formations for different types of armies. The formations can be used by both AI and player, this is to add some variation to battles, where AI had always lined up in that single useless line.

Here's a screenie of the new Roman quincunx formation.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/quincux.JPG

Any comments, suggestions and feedback will be welcome.

[Myrddraal]

Isn't it spelt: quincunx?

Good stuff, What other formations do you plan on doing, will they all be for the Romans??

[Epistolary Richard]

This I like! :rtwyes:

(especially the checkerboard)

As someone who doesn't use any of the existing formations and has to set up his troops individually at the start of each battle, more formations would be definitely appreciated.

That being said, I personally tend to use the same formation battle after battle for a particular faction so anything that makes defining a custom formation easier would be a must for me, whether it be a fancy graphical interface or excel macro or just a simple tutorial posted on the boards.

Keep it up! :medievalcheers:

[The_Mark]

Isn't it spelt: quincunx?
Thanks, I'll fix that.

As for the other formations, I'll try to do lots of them, few for each army type, but I doubt I can think enough of them (That's why I posted a topic at the colosseum, the "historical formations". It slipped to the abyss of second page soon after. :embarassed: ), so if you have a formation on hand, please, share it.


That being said, I personally tend to use the same formation battle after battle for a particular faction so anything that makes defining a custom formation easier would be a must for me, whether it be a fancy graphical interface or excel macro or just a simple tutorial posted on the boards.

It's quite simple to make them (except the quincunx), just have a look at descr_ai_formations, format is quite simple (although it takes years to master ~;) ... not.)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Post in the Monastery for the history buffs, mate.

Looks good.

:charge:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, I'll fix that.

As for the other formations, I'll try to do lots of them, few for each army type, but I doubt I can think enough of them (That's why I posted a topic at the colosseum, the "historical formations". It slipped to the abyss of second page soon after. :embarassed: ), so if you have a formation on hand, please, share it.



It's quite simple to make them (except the quincunx), just have a look at descr_ai_formations, format is quite simple (although it takes years to master ~;) ... not.)

Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.
- single line with heaviest troops on flanks but when you drag with rmb down and it draws up the 2 units at the flanks should keep their formation depth and the middle troops should instead be drawn thinner as you drag and increase the width of the line.

[The_Mark]

Post in the Monastery for the history buffs, mate.

Thanks, will do.


Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.


The formation can (and will) be done, although I'd add a small reserve behind the center.



- single line with heaviest troops on flanks but when you drag with rmb down and it draws up the 2 units at the flanks should keep their formation depth and the middle troops should instead be drawn thinner as you drag and increase the width of the line.

I haven't tried to do the group formations yet, but I doubt that it can be so that the flank troops maintain their depth.

Thanks for the formation, keep posting 'em!

[The_Doctor]

I thought that formation was called the triplex acies. I have never of a quincunx.

[The_Mark]

I thought that formation was called the triplex acies. I have never of a quincunx.

Yes, quincunx is the modern term, and I think triplex acies was the Roman name for it.

And here's another screen of cuincunx/triplex acies:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/cuincunx.JPG

And two other formations, used by mixed heavy/light infantry, demonstrated by celts:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/celts.JPG
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/celts2.JPG

The Britons are deployed as: First a skirmish screen, followed by line of light infantry, backed up by the heavies. Cavalry on flanks, general behind.

The Gauls have also a skirmish screen, followed by a line of light infantry, but heavy infantry is split between the flanks and center. Cav is again on the flanks and general is behind center.


Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.

Almost forgot.. That formation is already in vanilla, but it doesn't work without disabling the standard formation. It is actually a pretty good formation, and it will be included in this pack, although it may be modified a bit.

[bouis]

Wonderful. You you mind if this is used by other mods? I have a few in mind :)

[bouis]

Oh btw here's one I did (well, modified from the one included in RTR). It's not as good as yours with regard to the checkerboard formation but I did manage to force the auxilia units to the side which I thought was something of an accomplishment. If you'd like to know how I did it I can send you the file and an explanation.

http://www.datasync.com/~bouis/formations.JPG

[The_Mark]

No I don't mind (As long as I get the credit ~D ), but it's still in the making. Actually formations will probably work better with mods that slow down battle speed, in vanilla all light barbarians rout on contact. That's not good for formations, you know.

[The_Mark]

Thanks, I'd be pleased if you sent that, although my formation should support auxilia troops, but I haven't tested it yet. And if you want to know how I did the quincunx I'll send it to you.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Almost forgot.. That formation is already in vanilla, but it doesn't work without disabling the standard formation. It is actually a pretty good formation, and it will be included in this pack, although it may be modified a bit.

How? I've never seen it. Usually heavy troops end up on either of the flanks when I pick single or single sorted line. Are you referring to any other group formation than those?

[Rodion Romanovich]

What are those troops you've got in the bottom right corner, just to the left of those equites? I've never seen them in R:TW - are they modded units?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oops, didn't know this didn't post in my last post, but the last past was in reply to #11.

[The_Mark]

How? I've never seen it. Usually heavy troops end up on either of the flanks when I pick single or single sorted line. Are you referring to any other group formation than those?

Oh.. You were talking about group formations as opposed to army formations.. This mod is about army formations, not group ones. The "heavies on the flanks"-formation is used by AI as an assault formation, when standard line is disabled. One can mod the group formations (in descr_formations.txt), and they are quite similar to army formations, but you'd have to override one of them in order to get a "heavies on the flanks" as a group formation.



What are those troops you've got in the bottom right corner, just to the left of those equites? I've never seen them in R:TW - are they modded units?

They are from the RTR mod, some kind of auxilia I presume.

[bouis]

They're various auxilia units; some are from RTR and some are from Roma Mod.

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

[The_Mark]

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

Unfortunately, there's little that can be done; at least with formations, as unit depth can't be set with formations; it has to be done in EDU, according to unit scale. That'd be much easier (and more functional) than to make formations based on unit scale. e.g. my triplex acies has currently 35 different, almost individually configured blocks, so one could change a couple of figures in EDU or write a new quincunx.. :dizzy2:

Personally, I'd go for the EDU, considering that unit depth can't be set in DFAI.

[bouis]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

[Kraxis]

You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

[The_Mark]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

Yes, I was a bit worried by huge/small settings on the formations, particularly on the quincunx. Huge settings do tend to strech it quite wide. Not a good thing when facing cataphracts. One way of countering this would be make a huge variant with two units placed as one deeper block, but well, I doubt that ancient Romans themselves didn't put their maniples into only 4 man deep formations?

I'd still go for editing the EDU, or giving a recommended unit scale.


You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

Umm.. Would that be like:

|||..|||..||| hastati
|||..|||..||| principes
|||..|||..||| triarii

. =empty


You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

And by Philip against the Greeks in Chaeronea, as in:

...../|||||
.../ .......|||
./.............|||
/..................|||
..................................cavalry

/ = skrimishers, light inf
||| = phalanx

Yes, I am going to do that, but I doubt that AI can handle it. I hope so. Can it be used defensively? Then AI would keep it's form but the player might easily circle around to the lightly protected side of the phalanx.

[Sundjata Keita]

You seem to be doing rarther well at making these formations so I wonder if I can ask you a favour, could you do a formation for the Zulu mod. We need a bull-horn formation doing. Like the one in this picture

http://img236.exs.cx/img236/6299/regimentformationcopy4qy.png

The chest and loins need to be all infantry, the heaviest infantry at the back, the horns need to be more infantry and all missile infantry need to be just infront of the chest in a line. The main body of the formation should be as depicted a two unit width.

This is only a request and you can turn it down but there is no rush so if you ever get any free time I would be very gratefull if you could do this.

Thanks,

Sundjata Keita

[The_Mark]

No problem, I can do that. Just... I don't know.. if.. well... What kind of infantry you need in those horns ~D

I'll PM it to you when it's done. Just tell me what you need.

[Kraxis]

Yes the Africanus version was 'just' the principes right behind the hastati (and the triarii needed not be moved). The lanes themselves were filled with velites. So perhaps the first line could have skirmishers fill up the spaces?

And yes that was pretty much the formation I hoped for with the phalanx.
While we can 'easily' flank it, so can we with pretty much every formation out there. This one at least protects one side and has the other fairly well protected. And if there is cavalry it too will protect the vulnerable open side as it would take the enemy in the flank if they tried anything.

[Laridus Konivaich]

Is there a tutorial for making new formations anywhere? I think that quite a few people would aprreciate a link. Also, has anyone made a formation for the unit to form a circle, all facing outwards. If not, how hard would it be to make one?

[Epistolary Richard]

This thread is about army formations, as in skirmishers at the front, cavalry at the back, rather than unit formations (such as square, wedge, phalanx etc.).

Unit formations are hard-coded, however Duke John discovered a method of adapting the horde formation, which you can find here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40931). This should allow you to create a circle unit formation (at the expense of the horde formation), but I don't know if it will allow you to have them all face outwards.

Update: There's also The_Mark's original thread where he raised the idea. While it doesn't include a tutorial per se it does include useful information if you want to get started. It was on the Colosseum and can be found here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44851).

[Epistolary Richard]

No problem, I can do that. Just... I don't know.. if.. well... What kind of infantry you need in those horns ~D


Probably the same kind of infantry that makes up the chest. AFAIK there wasn't a great deal of specialisation between the four warbands.

Someone from the mod can correct me if I'm wrong but I would think that the particular 'horn' shape on that diagram is intended to be indicative of the flanking movement of the warbands. I don't think they're anticipating that you can actually make a unit into a horn shape ~D

[The_Mark]

Someone from the mod can correct me if I'm wrong but I would think that the particular 'horn' shape on that diagram is intended to be indicative of the flanking movement of the warbands. I don't think they're anticipating that you can actually make a unit into a horn shape ~D

Figured that much out ~D

Actually the bull horn-formation looks a bit like this at the moment:

######..................######
######..................######
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤.^^^^^^^^¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
............¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤..........
............¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤..........
............##########...

#=heavy inf
¤=light inf
^=skirmish

The horns start a bit more back than in the "diagram". The formation has been sent to Sundjata Keita for testing, I let him release the screens when he's ready.


Is there a tutorial for making new formations anywhere? I think that quite a few people would aprreciate a link. Also, has anyone made a formation for the unit to form a circle, all facing outwards. If not, how hard would it be to make one?

What Richard said.

[The_Mark]

Yes the Africanus version was 'just' the principes right behind the hastati (and the triarii needed not be moved). The lanes themselves were filled with velites. So perhaps the first line could have skirmishers fill up the spaces?

Thanks, I'll include it in the mod.


And yes that was pretty much the formation I hoped for with the phalanx.
While we can 'easily' flank it, so can we with pretty much every formation out there. This one at least protects one side and has the other fairly well protected. And if there is cavalry it too will protect the vulnerable open side as it would take the enemy in the flank if they tried anything.

If cav would be massed on the protected flank, with skirmishers/light inf covering the other and a phalanx/heavy inf reserve behind them, wouldn't that be quite good?

[Kraxis]

Well, yes it would be effective, so it would be a great AI formation. Perhaps that could be made the 'attack' formation while the normal line formation could be the 'defense' formation.

But in historical terms the cavalry was centered behind the infantry to an extent (they were really put on the flanks but in RTW we have to compromise). That way they become both a fast reaction force and a great offensive tool to use with the echelon. Of course if the AI throws that away too fast the whole formation becomes a liability.

So it is up to you. I think the AI will benefit more from your version.

[The_Mark]

The echelon phalanx is quite done, but well... see for yourselves:

AI defends in echelon, skirmishers are getting forward..
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/echelon1.jpg

After skrimishing they return to their place:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/echelon2.JPG

My romans get ready to attack the phalanx, notice how the spears cover phalangites' flanks:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/echelon3.jpg

And I'm not going to say what happened after I charged.

Instead, I'll show you another pic, this is what happens when AI tries to attack in echelon:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/makealho/rtw_screenies/echelon4.jpg

The echelon defense was a military masterpiece compared to that.

I guess I'll have to tweak the formation extensively if it's going to be any good. On defense it works tolerably, AI was even smart enough to wait until I moved my cavalry to my other flank, leaving my right vulnerable.

/EDIT

Tweaking will not help, I'm afraid. AI just doesn't handle individually blocked phalanxes well enough; when the phalanx is defined as one block AI can barely use it in attack, but when they are separate blocks, it just does't know what to do, so this one will be unusable in attack.

[Simetrical]

That's a shame. I love how the flanks were covered by the spears.

-Simetrical

[The_Mark]

That's a shame. I love how the flanks were covered by the spears.

Yes, it is a shame. Damn AI... It always has to screw something up.

Anyways, I'm now getting suckered up into the EB (well actually I volunteered to get suckered up), so you might see some formed EB armies sometime in the future ~;)

And this will probably mean that I stop modding vanilla RTW, so this mod will prolly fade away.

And I'd like to say something about the EB. Those not in the team don't know anything yet, the mod is just beautiful... It's so beautiful.. I could just stare the internal screenies thread for hours.. Be prepared for it, otherwise you might not be able to handle its immense beauty...

~D
Yes, I became one of those "sneaky bastards" :P

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oh.. You were talking about group formations as opposed to army formations.. This mod is about army formations, not group ones. The "heavies on the flanks"-formation is used by AI as an assault formation, when standard line is disabled. One can mod the group formations (in descr_formations.txt), and they are quite similar to army formations, but you'd have to override one of them in order to get a "heavies on the flanks" as a group formation.


Ok, I think I've found a .txt file for that (descr_formations.txt or something), but I have NO idea ~:confused: how to make a formation for heavy infs on flanks and light in the middle. I'd like to override the formation called single sorted line with my formation.

I'd be really thankful if someone could help me with this... :help:

[The_Mark]

Ok, I think I've found a .txt file for that (descr_formations.txt or something), but I have NO idea how to make a formation for heavy infs on flanks and light in the middle. I'd like to override the formation called single sorted line with my formation.

Yes, descr_formations.txt is the group formations, descr_formations_ai.txt is the army formations.

Find this line in descr_formations:
begin_formation ordered_single_line

Block 0 is the center block, 1 is right of center, 2 is left. Just change the unit types to the order you want, e.g. in block 1 add a line

unit_type heavy infantry 1.0

That will assign heavy infantry to block 1, to right of center. Remove the light and missile/skirmish unit type lines from block 1 and only heavy inf will get assigned to block 1.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, descr_formations.txt is the group formations, descr_formations_ai.txt is the army formations.

Find this line in descr_formations:
begin_formation ordered_single_line

Block 0 is the center block, 1 is right of center, 2 is left. Just change the unit types to the order you want, e.g. in block 1 add a line

unit_type heavy infantry 1.0

That will assign heavy infantry to block 1, to right of center. Remove the light and missile/skirmish unit type lines from block 1 and only heavy inf will get assigned to block 1.

Thanks a lot! Now that I saw how easy some parts of modding are, I actually got taste for modding myself. I'm starting a new mod and one of it's aims is to combine several single-feature mods into one big, nice mod where all these single-feature mods are made compatible with each other and easier for the user to install. Info about the mod is posted here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45319

As I said in that post, I like your formation mod idea and if you're interested I'd like to include your work in that mod. You will of course get all the credits for the formations part of the mod. If you're interested, please post a reply in that thread.

[Kraxis]

Too late I see as you are off to EB.

But maybe these experiences can help you in EB? Try it out here where we can help you set it up properly and then add it to EB... I think that is a great compromise. We get what we want and EB get what it wants. What do you say?

Anyway on a technical point.
The echelon doesn't work on offense but it does on the defense? Good enough for me, I didn't expect it to work perfectly with the AI. Maybe it is better with the player? Well, since the formations can be set to either defence, offense or both I think it is perfectly ok to remove the offense tag and leave it be at defence.

Oh and a point, maybe set the phalanx depth a bit lower. That echelon on defence was in for a bad beating as the Roman formation outstreched it by a whole unit on the forward part. Not good as that gives the Romans a great advantage. The other phalanxes were not into the battle yet but the first one would be outflanked.

Of course this brings in the hypothetical wedge formation, where we eliminate the weak right flank alltogether.
Such a formation would be close to unflankable by anything other than cavalry, due to its depth and width.

[The_Mark]

Well, I'd like to do both, but I don't exactly have too much spare time, so there's going to be some prioritising.. We shall see..

The echelon phalanx does work on defense, what with AI still being bit dumb.

You are right about outstretching, but if there's some reserves on AI's right flank... And if the phalanx is shallowed, it'd essentially cease being an echelon, and this would also close the opening created for cav.

I had a wedge phalanx in my mind, and I might do it later.. With cavalry support that *could* be something that players *might* have to outthink, something I'd like to see much more often.

[Kraxis]

If you strech the individual phalanx blocks then it will still be an echelon, just its footprint will be bigger, meaning your Roman formation won't be able to outflank the poor guys in front rather you have to face the entire formation head on, which is the entire point with this.

Also I think I mentioned that the cavalry could be on both flanks. Protecting one side and being a menace to the other. Anyway the initial echelon looked great and was in my mind a perfect beginning.

So what is your job at EB? I mean you mentioned something about strange formations in EB, so ifthat is what you do then perhaps this could be your testing grounds for the more conventional formations. How would we 'know'?

[The_Mark]

If you strech the individual phalanx blocks then it will still be an echelon, just its footprint will be bigger, meaning your Roman formation won't be able to outflank the poor guys in front rather you have to face the entire formation head on, which is the entire point with this.

Also I think I mentioned that the cavalry could be on both flanks. Protecting one side and being a menace to the other.

Yes, it will be an echelon, but without a proper slope.. But yes, they could be streched a bit further. And I will probably assign a bit cav on the other flank also, with a small infantry reserve.


So what is your job at EB? I mean you mentioned something about strange formations in EB, so ifthat is what you do then perhaps this could be your testing grounds for the more conventional formations. How would we 'know'?

Basicly, implementing the formations. And I didn't mention about strange formations, just that doing forms for EB is different from doing them for vanilla. And nope, I won't be using this for testing, you'll get the forms with EB (Just being the regular EB bastard here ~D )

But if I do some forms purely for vanilla, they'll be posted here.

[Kraxis]

Well hmm ok then.

The echelon doesn't need to be very steep actually. Remember that what we are seeing is a very limited vision of it. THe real echelon wouldn't have been very steep, given the length of line. So by makign the units a bit slimmer it wouldn't hurt the formation anything... At least I think so.

[The_Mark]

Seems that this thread slipped my attention..

You're right, it works as well with wider front(, but I didn't do that by modding, only tried it out in MP.) If I'll have some time I'll try to come up with a couple vanilla forms sometime.

[Kraxis]

Would be nice... Because everytime I try anything the AI tends to screw up badly. So I'm only keeping with the slight priority mod mentioned earlier.

[Ianofsmeg16]

hi, great lookin formations

what about the roman infantry wedge
dont have a clue as to how you would do this, but the roman used the infantry wedge in alot of historically recorded battles e.g against boudicca

again dunno ho you would do it buit you seem to know your stuff, good luck!

:duel: :charge: :charge: :duel:

[The_Mark]

Because everytime I try anything the AI tends to screw up badly.
I know. It's not capable of anything else than screwing up.


what about the roman infantry wedge
If you're referring to the case where a single unit would form a wedge, akin to the cav wedge, it can be done, but it's not in the scope of this mod. And giving legionnaires wedge ability would prevent them from using testudo.