Best German/Austrian/Prussian/Whateveran General Ever

[Kaiser of Arabia]

From Germany and that area, Germanic nations.
Yeah.




Rommel IMHO. Not only was he a good strategist he was brave and was chivalrous.
Rommel
Great man

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I would say Rommel as well. I do not know many other generals from the area, but he is one of the best generals of all time so I feel comfortable saying Rommel.

[IrishMike]

I'd probaly say rommel due to the fact that he was a brilliant strategist. Only problem is that the Alantic Wall that he built did fail. Also he was not the run of the mill NAZI (spelling?) general, he did have a heart in him and was a good man.

[discovery1]

Guadarian. He created the doctrine that Germany used to bring Europe to it's knees. Another good candidate I think would be Paul Erich von Lettow-Vorbeck. Tied down a large allied force while he never had more than 14000. Won the last German victory two days after the armistice. When he learned of it, he surrendured his 3,000 troops. He was never defeated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erich_von_Lettow-Vorbeck

[PanzerJaeger]

Hmm.. this is a tough one. Of course one reverts to Rommel, but he is only one of many throughout the ages. In fact, German generals won much bigger battles against the Russians during ww2.. so one could argue Rom wasnt even the best German general of that war, not even counting WW1 and all the previous wars of the German states.

[Drag0nUL]

I'd go for Erich von Manstein. The briliant plan for the attack on France through the Ardennes was his idea, and he also performed remarcable deeds as commander of Army Group South against a vastly superior enemy.

[Gregoshi]

"Hurryin' Heinz" Guderian. He molded the German armoured forces into what they became during the war.

[ah_dut]

"Hurryin' Heinz" Guderian. He molded the German armoured forces into what they became during the war.
Same over here...

[Duke of Gloucester]

Why not Moltke? Did he not win all his wars (if not all his battles) and change strategy based on what he had learnt from his own mistakes and the successes of his enemies. Some historians talk of "The Age of Moltke" and you can't say this for any of the other suggestions so far.

[Templar Knight]

For me it would have to be Helmuth von Moltke (1800-1891)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Guridian is a close second, but the Erwin-man has to take the rumcake

[Stefan the Berserker]

For me it would have to be Helmuth von Moltke (1800-1891)

For me to, Heinz Guderian and Rommel chare the second place.

However the common thing between Moltke, Guderian, Rommel and Manstein is the Spearhead-Doctrine which is mostly based on Mobility.

I claim that the non-usage of the Spearhead/Blitzkrieg and lacking planning was the main reason for the defeat in WW1. Germany couldn't win with trenching.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Actually Schlieffen thought of the attack on Belgium and the way to deal with the two front war. He spent much of his life perfecting it. He died before it was first used but it was used in WWI and WWII with slight modifications. Moltke messed with it in WWI and may have been able to take Paris if he had not changed the plan and diverted troops. That is why it was called the Schlieffen Plan.

[Adrian II]

You boys don't know your history. Here's a real German soldier.




http://www.gdw-berlin.de/db_images/gross/7331.jpg

Henning von Tresckow (January 10, 1901 - July 21, 1944)


Henning von Tresckow volunteers at the age of sixteen and serves in the First World War in 1917-18. In 1920, he leaves the army and takes up the study of law. Four years later, he takes over his father's estate in the Neumark region only to join the Reichswehr again two years after that.

Tresckow is initially skeptical of the Weimar Republic. He completes training for the General Staff and is married to Erika von Falkenhayn, with whom he has two daughters and two sons.

He initially welcomes the National Socialist takeover but becomes increasingly skeptical of Hitler's policies and finally joins the ranks of the resolute opponents to the regime following the November pogroms in 1938. Tresckow strengthens the connections between the military resistance and Ludwig Beck and Carl Goerdeler and assumes a dominant position among the officers of the opposition. He believes it is necessary to "shoot Hitler like a mad dog." For him, the assassination attempt is an act of self-defense and the consequence of a moral obligation.

Tresckow succeeds in finding several fellow officers who are prepared to risk their lives to carry out the assassination that they know to be necessary. Assigned to the command of Army Group G under General Gerd von Rundstedt as a major in 1939, Tresckow is promoted to lieutenant colonel in 1940 and transferred as First General Staff Officer (Ia) to Army Group B, which in 1941 is renamed Army Group Center in preparation for the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

Tresckow is promoted to colonel in the General Staff in 1942. From mid-1942 on, he repeatedly tries to organize attempts on Hitler's life but these assassination attempts are repeatedly aborted. Tresckow is transferred to the "Führer's reserve" in late July 1943. In Berlin, he uses this opportunity to work together with Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg on the "Valkyrie" plans for a coup. In the fall of 1943, Tresckow is transferred to the southern segment of the eastern front, where in late November 1943 he is appointed chief of staff of the 2nd Army.

In 1944, now with the rank of major general, he maintains contact with the conspirators although he is unable to be directly involved in the preparing the coup. Immediately before the assassination attempt of July 20, 1944, Tresckow strengthens Stauffenberg's determination to carry out the assassination attempt. When Henning von Tresckow hears that the coup has failed, he takes his own life at the front near Ostrów on July 21, 1944.

[PanzerJaeger]

I gather he spent more of his time trying to kill Hitler than command his armies? Not a great general if you ask me.. he had a responsibility to his men first and foremost, not to his political desires. Gotta give him credit for trying to take out Hitler, but winning the war is the generals primary objective.

[Templar Knight]

Moltke messed with it in WWI and may have been able to take Paris if he had not changed the plan and diverted troops. That is why it was called the Schlieffen Plan.

That was Moltke the younger nephew of my hero Helmuth von Moltke the elder

[Adrian II]

I gather he spent more of his time trying to kill Hitler than command his armies? Not a great general if you ask me.. he had a responsibility to his men first and foremost, not to his political desires. Gotta give him credit for trying to take out Hitler, but winning the war is the generals primary objective.That mentality landed quite a few of those gentlemen in the grave, in anonymous ditches or in the docks of Neurenberg -- places where they belonged. It is a pity there were not more German soldiers with Tresckow's sense of honour. Good role model.

[PanzerJaeger]

So you would applaud US general if he Couped the present administration because he thought the Iraq war was illegal? Again, that is not their job.

[Adrian II]

So you would applaud US general if he Couped the present administration because he thought the Iraq war was illegal? Again, that is not their job.As far as I am aware, there are no German commanders in the U.S. Army. This is a historic thread about Teutonic military commanders. I answered the question and posted a nice picture to go with it. So there.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hah, ok.

[Longshanks]

So you would applaud US general if he Couped the present administration because he thought the Iraq war was illegal? Again, that is not their job.

Going O/T here...

Actually it is their job Panzer. American military personnel swear an oath of allegiance to the US Constitution, and swear to defend it against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. If the US ever found itself ruled by a dictator, it would be the duty of the US military to overthrow said dictator and restore the Republic.

I doubt German military officers swore a similar oath, in fact IIRC they swore an oath of allegiance to the Nazi party. (or was it Hitler personally)
At any rate they still had a duty to their nation to murder Hitler. Hitler was the worst thing to ever happen to Germany...his actions ultimately caused Germany's ruin and the deaths of millions of Germans.

Going back on topic...

I'll go with Frederick the Great, he deserves a mention. ~;)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

That was Moltke the younger nephew of my hero Helmuth von Moltke the elder

Ok, I was not aware that there were two prominate Moltkes. I did not mean to say he was a bad general, he was being pressured by a faster than expected Russian mobilization and a French attack on Alsace and Lorraine, (Those are the two provinces taken by Prussia in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war right?.).

He ended up sending 15% of the originally assigned troops to deal with the French offensive and another 25% to the Eastern Front. This left only 60% of the troops that Schlieffen had planned on sending to France on the offensive against Paris. If they had succeeded, which was likely with the full complement of troops France may have been forced out of the war and Russia could have been dealt with later. Especially if the Bolsheviks still revolted. I like What If? scenarios, they make you think and have endless possiblities.

In my post I was mainly trying to get the point across that Schlieffen was the one that made the German battle plan used in WWI and WWII.

[PanzerJaeger]

Longshanks,

On a purely Monasterial level, let me draw out a scenario for you.

Lets say a leading general in the US armed forces believes that W, just like Hitler, was elected due to propaganda/cheating.

He believes that W's wars in the middle east are imperialistic, just as Hitler's wars were.

He believes W has insulted and infringed upon the constitution with the patriot act.

He believes that 4 more years of W would ruin America.

There are plenty of people in this country that believe just that. Lets say one of them was in charge of the army.

Would he then be obliged to stage a coup?


Remember, history is 20/20 hindsight. Its easy to say now that Hitler was horrible for Germany, but at the time this fellow was trying to kill him, Hitler was loved and supported by the vast majority of Germans. Was it his duty to go against the will of the German people and coup the government, or lead his armies?

[Gregoshi]

The little side debate about a general's duty as regards to a leader, while interesting, is perfect Backroom material. Why don't you start up the discussion there?

Let's keep zis thrrrread talking about zee beste Cherman/ Ostrien/ Prrrrussian/ Vhateveran Cheneral. Ja? Danke schoen. Ach, mein Deutsch verstinkt!!*

* Uh, what I meant to say is "My German stinks" in case what I really said was something nasty. Also, I don't know how to do an umlaut, so I'd just better stop and stick to English from here on out. :laugh4:

[PanzerJaeger]

Ok, ok, i get the point. :bow:

[Templar Knight]

Ok, I was not aware that there were two prominate Moltkes. I did not mean to say he was a bad general, he was being pressured by a faster than expected Russian mobilization and a French attack on Alsace and Lorraine, (Those are the two provinces taken by Prussia in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war right?).

I read somewhere that Moltke the younger was given the job simply because of his name and relation to his uncle

and yes, Alsace and Lorraine were the two provinces nabbed by Prussia/German Empire after the fall of France in 1871

The offensive on Paris would have succeeded but the general leading the attack was told of problems to his south so swept away from the city exposing his flank to an attack from the paris garrison, which arrived at the front line in a fleet of taxis.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Going O/T here...

Actually it is their job Panzer. American military personnel swear an oath of allegiance to the US Constitution, and swear to defend it against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. If the US ever found itself ruled by a dictator, it would be the duty of the US military to overthrow said dictator and restore the Republic.

I doubt German military officers swore a similar oath, in fact IIRC they swore an oath of allegiance to the Nazi party. (or was it Hitler personally)
At any rate they still had a duty to their nation to murder Hitler. Hitler was the worst thing to ever happen to Germany...his actions ultimately caused Germany's ruin and the deaths of millions of Germans.

Going back on topic...

I'll go with Frederick the Great, he deserves a mention. ~;)

The Nazis alternated the original Swear, which promoted the Defense of Germany with Selfsacrifice, to a swear where you where forced on loyality towards Hitler.

However Tresckow had sworn the variant of the Weimar Republic.

A very popular Swearbreaker is Paul von Hindenburg who swore loaylity to the Emperor but after William II was forced to resign had no morale problem in becoming President, and refuse a recreation of the Monarchy he claimed to be loyal to by law.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Remember, history is 20/20 hindsight. Its easy to say now that Hitler was horrible for Germany, but at the time this fellow was trying to kill him, Hitler was loved and supported by the vast majority of Germans. Was it his duty to go against the will of the German people and coup the government, or lead his armies?

To my Opinion the thing was too late, they should have killed Hitler in Livetime of Hindenburg and force to old man to abolish NSDAP. In 1933 before the Nazis took control of Press and just became part of gouverment the coup would have destroyed them.

[Petrus]

Ok, I was not aware that there were two prominate Moltkes. I did not mean to say he was a bad general, he was being pressured by a faster than expected Russian mobilization and a French attack on Alsace and Lorraine, (Those are the two provinces taken by Prussia in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war right?.).

He ended up sending 15% of the originally assigned troops to deal with the French offensive and another 25% to the Eastern Front. This left only 60% of the troops that Schlieffen had planned on sending to France on the offensive against Paris. If they had succeeded, which was likely with the full complement of troops France may have been forced out of the war and Russia could have been dealt with later. Especially if the Bolsheviks still revolted. I like What If? scenarios, they make you think and have endless possiblities.

In my post I was mainly trying to get the point across that Schlieffen was the one that made the German battle plan used in WWI and WWII.

Yes, Alsace and Lorraine where french provinces taken by the prussians in 1871.

The main problem with the schlieffen plan was not much the defensive that was organized in the east of paris and around that city, but mostly the fact that the french armies had been able to retreat from the frontiers.

The main goal of the plan was not to take paris but to encircle and destroy the french military forces.

From this, the french offensive in the north-east was a very good thing for the german strategists, as it allowed the german armys to cross belgium, go south and encircle the french forces in alsace/german frontier.

But the french offensive was not succesful enough to permit this , the french high command realized soon enough that it was vital to retreat and the french soldiers managed a very difficult retreat before turning back, stopping the invading armies and defeating them on the marne river.

In fact, the schlieffen plan was extremely hazardous and it failed mostly due to the fact that the german armies in alsace defended very fiercely instead of giving ground slowly to the french attacking armies.

Had they managed to do this, the plan would very probably have worked.

But to do this, it would have been necessary to admit a defeat in the first days/weeks of the war for a the german armies and the responsability of this defeat would have had to be assumed by a prince/heir or something like that, one of the crowned leaders of the german armies.

Among other reasons, this proved to be a too heavy price, politicaly for the german dictature.

To go back to the topic, i would say the most brilliants german miliry leaders are, in my opinion, Friedrich the great, Ludendorff, Manstein and Guderian.

But i think Ludendorff is number one, as he was able to create a military doctrine, to make it functional and to win with it in a struggle that was extremely fierce.

In fact, when watching the german operations in the first years of word war II, one can find exactly the principles that where given by Ludendorff.

They worked better at that time simply because the krauts had tanks, trucks and radios that they did not possess twenty years before.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Thanks for expanding my knowledge of the Schlieffen plan, it is a very interesting bit of history and the book I am reading (11th month, 11th day, 11th year) has a chapter about it, though it focuses mainly on the idiocy of the offensive carried out on the last day of the war.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Helmuth von Moltke. :yes:

(The elder indeed, not his spoiled dumbaß nephew! :no:)
-

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yeah his nephew was an imbecile. It still amazes me how he decided to mess with the Schlieffen plan...

[DukeofSerbia]

Preuss Koenig Friedrich II was the best German commander between 1450 - 1789!!!
End of story,,, ~:)

[Franconicus]

For me to, Heinz Guderian and Rommel chare the second place.

However the common thing between Moltke, Guderian, Rommel and Manstein is the Spearhead-Doctrine which is mostly based on Mobility.


If you are looking for the best general in general staff, then it is Moltke. He created a new militry doctrine, that gave modern mass armies their mobolity. And yes, he is the father of the spearhead theory. And he was able to built an army after his model. He selected and trained all officers, so everybody knew what to do. Guderian is close, but his tank philosophy is based on Moltke; and he didn't have the chance to form the whole army.

If you are looking for the best troop commander, my choice is good old Bluecher. He chased Napoleon out of Europe and rescued Wellington's ass.
Rommel is also great. But in the dessert he had too little opportunities (Russia was much more of interest). He rejected Hitler's order to stand, but he didn't do it in time. And he did oppone to Hitler as he should have. After all his dead was in vane.

[artavazd]

I am related to Guderian and im not even German ~;) ( im litererly related to him by blood) does any one know what Guderian's background is ? gvie me ur responses and ill tell u the story of Guderian

[Gregoshi]

Hi artavazd.

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about Guderian. I read the abridged version his autobiography Panzer Leader a few times and a couple of weeks ago picked up the unabridged version. Sadly, I've been missing about half the book by just reading the abridged version. I hope to fill in the gaps by reading the full version as soon as I can find some time to read.

[PanzerJaeger]

does any one know what Guderian's background is ? gvie me ur responses and ill tell u the story of Guderian

Ive of course read panzer commander and some of his other stuff.. a great general, not much of a nazi, just a german superiorist really.

His generalship was top notch, and i would say from what ive read he was a good man despite the blanket guilt Germans of that time get.

[Ironside]

Gebhard von Blücher

Being completly mad and still having the confidence of his men says something about the commanding skills. ~D

But to be honest, I don't think he was the best, but he's certainly the funniest. :laugh4:

[artavazd]

Guderian is Armenian. He is my grandmothers second uncle. During the Armenian Genocide commited by the turks in 1915 Guderian was taken to a German orphanage and well the rest is history.

[caesar44]

since charles the great who was frankish (a german tribe as you know) until the nazi monster shikelbruger (who call himself hitler) there was no german leader who conquered europe so the answer is simple

[AlexPeters]

Guderian is Armenian. He is my grandmothers second uncle. During the Armenian Genocide commited by the turks in 1915 Guderian was taken to a German orphanage and well the rest is history.
Well, i think the name Guderian seems to be widespread...
Heinz Guderian, the son of Friedrich Guderian and his wife Clara (born as Clara Kirchhoff) was born 1888 in Kulm (Western Prussia).
Before the 1st WW, he served as a captain in a ranger regiment in Goslar under the command of his own father.
And during the war he was commanding a telegraphic station (mobile on horseback and later on trucks) on the western front.
I don't think that he had the time to be in Armenia also...
You can read some things about him here:
Achtung Panzer (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen2.htm)
It's not that clear even among well informed historians whether he had an attitude towards the Nazi regime. He himself denied it several times before and after the war but it doesn't seemed to bother him during it.
He also fought in the Baltics with the "Eiserne Brigade" (that was known as a very militant Nazi friendly Freikorps) between the 1st and the 2nd WW.

Alex

[Kaiser of Arabia]

w00t his son was born on my birthday!

[PanzerJaeger]

It's not that clear even among well informed historians whether he had an attitude towards the Nazi regime. He himself denied it several times before and after the war but it doesn't seemed to bother him during it.

In my opinion, he was a Prussian in every since of the word. ~;)

It wasnt in his character to miss a European war, no matter who was at the helm of Germany.

[TheSilverKnight]

Friedrich der Große! Woooh! He established Prussia from an army with a state to a state with an army in 46 years, though his last war (War of Bavarian Succession) went a bit wrong...just a teensy bit ~;)