Most difficult VI campaign

[Kommodus]

Hello friends,

Which faction in the VI campaign do you think is the most difficult to play as, and why? Factors such as geographic starting position, economic situation, unit selection, and likely enemies could come into play.

I just purchased VI, and originally thought to try the Picts, since I thought they would be weak. However, the notes in the beginning of the campaign indicated that some other factions were even more difficult. I ended up settling for an Irish/Hard campaign, although now I suspect that the Welsh campaign might've been even harder. I'm not that far in, so I don't know. What do you think?

Kommodus

[DisruptorX]

I've found the Irish to be the most difficult. You only start with one province, forcing you to extend yourself very early. If the vikings decide to pick on you, this causes severe problems. Even after you conquer the Island, making a beachead on Britain proper is not easy, as you will either be landing in strongly fortified Scottish or Saxon territory.

[Cruelsader]

Do not believe what the faction selection screen says. Often it it is quite wrong in the assesment of faction difficulty. In general, the most difficult factions in MTW are those that are on relatively poor land in the middle. In my experience Northtumbrians are the most difficult in Viking Invasion. They are in the middle and even quick expansion does not help much because they have to conquer at least two factions in one direction before having only one land front. Besides, they border Mercians - one of the strongest factions in the game. Also, they have to defend their extensive coastline from Viking raids - a very difficult task in the beginning.

In my experience Irish have been very easy. It is not difficult to conquer the whole island and the agriculture on the island is very good. The critical issue with the Irish is the control of the sea. Once you control the sea you have practically won. However, with Irish much depends on whether the Vikings decide to attack you early in the game. If they do, you will have difficult time, if not, it is easy.

P.S. I play only on expert, maybe things are different at lower difficulty levels.

[Kommodus]

Interesting comments. As it happened, the Vikings did not invade me, but instead went for the British mainland. This allowed me to unify "my" island, and build a sizable navy that firmly establishes my control of local waters (although some other factions still have a few ships in those waters). I have used this navy to destroy all the Viking ships I've encountered so far.

However, I have not become the dominant power yet, or even truly close to it. For a long time, the Mercians and the Saxons had the largest armies and the most territory. The Picts also became powerful by conquering Northumbria, while the Scots stayed about the same.

When I decided it was time to establish a base on the mainland, I originally wanted to head for Scotland but ended up settling on Wales for political reasons. I conquered two Welsh territories, but the rest were carved up by the Saxons and Mercians (both my allies), and the Mercians had my small foothold boxed in. Thus, when the two went to war, I sided with the Saxons, hoping to seize a little more land from Mercia's backside.

Unfortunately, the Saxons conducted a shocking blitzkrieg campaign, aided by a Mercian civil war. Before I could mobilize my men to invade Mercia, the Saxons had occupied all the borders I once shared with Mercia - and now they were boxing me in! Mercia soon fell completely, leaving the Saxons as the undisputed master of southern England, and by far the strongest power overall.

Realizing my Welsh beachhead could not be expanded, I launched a new invasion, this time against the Scots, after allying myself with the Picts. The foolish Scots had attacked the Picts, and thus were ripe for the taking. I took two Scottish territories, including their capital, but the Picts were also on the attack, and they took the rest. I now had two boxed-in beachheads.

Expansion would prove difficult on either front. The Picts, as I said earlier, had conquered Northumbria and had large armies including berserkers. Expansion against the Saxons, however, would be virtually impossible, as they had huge armies including huscarles, and an enormous economic base. Thus, when the Northumbrians re-emerged in Pict territory, I allied myself with them and attacked the Picts.

That's about where the campaign stands now. I've taken one Pict territory (without a fight), and split their empire in two. The Saxons sided with the Picts in this conflict. With my southern beachhead in Wales weakly defended, it can only be a matter of time before the expansionist-minded Saxons decide to add it to their empire. I wouldn't be able to hold them back if I wanted to, so I will probably let them have it while I focus on expanding my power in the north. My large fleets will protect my homelands from Saxon invasion for a long time. My chief immediate concern, therefore, is the Pictish armies I face. They would not be too fearsome except for the berserkers in their ranks, which I have yet to face in battle.

So the Irish campaign hasn't been too hard on me (yet), but the worst is yet to come. Besides mounted nobles, I don't seem to have much by way of elite units, and the lack of archers is a serious detriment to my normal style of play. I'm not very good with javelin units (which the Irish have in plenty), and the armoured spearmen and gallowglasses that make up the Irish infantry core are not exactly great. I know I'm going to have a hard time when I go up against huscarles and berserkers, and archer-heavy armies have already been giving me grief in this campaign. It seems that cavalry is my strongest arm, and the one advantage I have over my enemies. I just hope it's enough.

On the other hand, it's cool to have three major powers remaining, and to be one of the weaker ones. Now let's see if we can get it down to two, for a final, climactic battle for domination...

[ajaxfetish]

Lack of archers is definitely a weakness for the Irish, and I would agree that Mounted Nobles are your strongest unit. Archers are the best tool for wearing down berserkers without giving them outrageous valor increases at the same time, but hopefully your javelins can wear them down sufficiently. The huscarls the Saxons will be fielding are some of the toughest units in the game, but fortunately your kerns and bonnaughts have the ability to puncture their armor from a distance. If you can pin them with some armored spearmen or other sturdy unit and let your javelins rip into them from behind your Irish troops won't do as poorly as might be expected. Gallowglasses should also be great for eliminating their fyrdmen and spearmen, so with the right army composition and some good tactics you should be all right. I'd worry a lot more about the Saxons than the Picts. I've never been too impressed by the Pictish armies I've fought.

A lot of people feel that the Welsh is the hardest, being pinned right next to the great superpowers with a pathetic economy and very exposed coastline. I'm of Welsh descent so they're my favorite to play anyway and can be quite successful. The Welsh archers are the best and they can employ traditional spear/archer combinations to great effect, and the Welsh terrain is very favorable to defense. I take Guined and Dyfed as soon as possible and ally with the Vikings early on, then sit and wait. With large enough garrisons the Saxons and Mercians usually decide to deal with each other instead of you, and time can be a great ally. I also build up Gwent directly to keep, bowyer workshop, and Royal Court and start churning out Welsh Bandits. Once you've got plenty of those guys you're a formidable force on any battlefield.

[Cruelsader]

Expansion would prove difficult on either front. The Picts, as I said earlier, had conquered Northumbria and had large armies including berserkers. Expansion against the Saxons, however, would be virtually impossible, as they had huge armies including huscarles, and an enormous economic base.

Usually Mercians or Saxons end up dominating the big island. It would be indeed almost impossible to fight them if it wasn't for the relatively poor AI. The AI does not understand that 3000 more men do not mean that much if you can beat the first 16 units including the general. But, I agree, this can be quite difficult against the elite units in the first campaigns. Alternatively, you could sit tight and hope for a massive rebellion or civil war. Sometimes it happens sometimes it does not. You could, of course, rise the likelihood of it happing by training valour 3 asssasins. ~:)

[DisruptorX]

The welsh are not very difficult at all, because you can cripple the Saxons early in the game, before they can stock up on huscarles. Along with the Scottish, the Welsh are one of the most enjoyable factions in the VI campaign. The scottish are great because you can build hordes of highland clansmen, which I picture in my mind as a unit of Mel Gibsons. ~D

As for the Irish, in my game, the Scotts actually invaded one of the rebel Irish territories, forcing me into an early war. While the Irish have few good elite units, at least gallowglasses pack an offensive punch. If you are not good at javs, try using hills, so that you can throw them over your own troops, or attack from the side against enemies already engaged in melee. This will give you practice against a static enemy. While it may be blasphemy, the one good thing that I got from RTW was experience with javelins, which I now use much more often in MTW. It takes practice, but once you master them, they are very effective, especially Spanish Jinettes in the normal campaign.

[English assassin]

Don't laugh but I think the vikings themselves can be quite hard.

I am playing my first viking campaign, and decided to play them "as vikings". So far so good, excellent units, excellent mobility by sea, enables me to pull off a raid more or less wherever I want. I took Man and the Western Isles to give myself a nice safe base in the British isles if ever I need a breather and I sink anyone elses ships on sight. (I also took Ireland but that was a mistake, as it tied me down in big battles trying to eliminate the Irish rather than making use of hit and run tactics and its not bringing in that much money in return.)

The difficult bit is the economy, which is heavily in deficit unless you pull off a raid more or less every turn. I need to make the switch to taking and holding land, but truth be told my armies are probably not really big enough to take on the full armies of the big boys (in this case the Mercians, I have been amusing myself lifting the seiges every time they try to eliminate the rump of my mates the saxons), and certainly not if I need garrisons too. So far I have been ducking the issue by moving on by sea before a big stack attacks. So the timing of a really serious land grab against the Mercians is quite tricky, as if I build up too big an army first, the economy goes even more down the tubes, but too small an army leaves me without the ability to make money raiding after I have taken casualties in a few big battles.

[caravel]

The Mercians are the easiest and the Northumbrians, or arguably the Welsh, are around the hardest. I also found the Irish to be quite easy.

[ichi]

I found the Irish to be very hard until a fried, UgllyGoat, taught me how to use them in MultiPlayer. Now I think they're easy.

I concur Northumbrians or Welsh seem hardest.

ichi :bow:

[Cruelsader]

Don't laugh but I think the vikings themselves can be quite hard. So the timing of a really serious land grab against the Mercians is quite tricky, as if I build up too big an army first, the economy goes even more down the tubes, but too small an army leaves me without the ability to make money raiding after I have taken casualties in a few big battles.

Yes, Vikings are special faction. If you try to play them as another faction, it is difficult: bad economy and lot of rebellions. However, if you raid constantly and take no more than Western islands and Island of Man you should have soon enough money to last for many decades. As Vikings I usually raid EVERY provinve on the big Islands in the first ~50 years. That gives me about 100 000K - quite enough to start conquest.

[Procrustes]

I've done well with the Irish until I've run into armies lead by huscarles. The huscarles can often chew through any of the units I try to pin them with, before I can destroy them with my javelins. They have enough momentum and moral that they keep going, targetting my general - can't slow them down much with armored spearmen or gallowglasses. Fun!

But Ireland has good farms - once you consolodate the island and garrison against viking raids you can turtle for a while, marshalling your strength and growing your tech.

[Satyr]

I have played all the factions at least a couple of times.

The Vikings are definately the easiest. Take the western isles and Man for troop development and then take Ireland. I usually take Ireland before the Irish take over the island. Remember you only need a few troops to kill anyone. Peasants only cost 12 in upkeep so build millions of peasants for garrison duty. I will get 4-6 provinces building peasants and have whole stacks in most provinces in Ireland. After that, pick one end of the main island and start sweeping thru leaving masses of peasants behind you to keep the population quelled. Except for peasants the only troops I build as Vikings are Huscarles! I usually finish about the time I can start producing Joms and I just don't think Berserkers are worth it especially because they take 2 years to produce.

Northumbria is easy. It takes 10 turns and you can start producing your own Huscarles. Build about 4 of them and go take over the Mercians. Then take over the Saxons before they build too many of their own.

Welsh is not too hard, you just need to take over the Saxons really quickly (in the first 30 years) then you are the Saxons and can rule.

I find the Scots the hardest. While clansmen are ok it is a long way to get to the south and often by the time you get there the Mercians or Saxons own the whole thing. Add in the Irish getting pushy and you can be in real trouble. The Picts have the same trouble except that they get Berserkers and those great cav archers so it is easier. Also they can sweep into Northumbria easier because they don't have to go thru the rebel held province that blocks the Scots.

Of course, the one element that can make any faction really difficult is if the Vikings decide to pick on you and play well enough to stay a power later into the game. Usually though they die a quick death and are only an inconvience for a short while.

All in all I think VI is far and away the best that CA has produced and all the factions are great fun to play. You can have some truely epic battles too.

[Budwise]

I agree with the guy saying the Scots are the hardest. Honestly, I will probably get flamed here for this but I find that spearmen/armored spearmen are close to absolute crap. I am not the best player ever but I know how to keep my lines from breaking and the spearmen will rout every time. EVEN AGAINST CAV.

If it wasn't for the mass horde of Merc/Highland Clansman combo, I would have never won. Oh, but toward the end, going up against the Saxons didn't seem all that tough.

[Pericles]

If you have played the VI Campaign for a while and want more challenge, then here is something easy you can do:

1) Go to:

C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\campmap\startpos

2) Open the "Viking" text document, and scroll down until you see this below:

//====================== ==================
//Starting Treasury
//Sets the amount of cash available to
//each faction at the start of the game.
//you can specify 4 values for the four
//difficulty levels in the order EASY,
//NORMAL, HARD and EXPERT. Specify only one
//value to start all difficulty levels with
//the same size treasury.
//If you don't set this, the default
//is 2000 florins for all difficulty levels.
//========================================

SetTreasury:: FN_01 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Irish
SetTreasury:: FN_02 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Mercians
SetTreasury:: FN_03 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Northumbrians
SetTreasury:: FN_04 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Picts
SetTreasury:: FN_05 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Saxons
SetTreasury:: FN_06 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Scots
SetTreasury:: FN_07 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Vikings
SetTreasury:: FN_08 8000 6000 4000 2000 // Welsh



3) Then pick your faction, and give ALL other factions more florins on the difficulty level you have selected. You can give as many florins as you wish (from 10000 to 2000000).

4) Be sure to BACKUP YOUR ORIGINAL "VIKING" TEXT FILE!

5) Click save and the play the VI Campaign with the faction you selected.

Have fun!

[IrishMike]

I think the Scots are the hardest to play. They have to expand over two fronts and have some dirt poor provinces to start with if I remeber right.

[Satyr]

Pericles, I have done that for the Vikings but never for all the opposing factions. If you give the Vikings about 50,000 starting cash they get quite strong and offer a good game right till the end. The other way I have done this was as the Saxons, I was allied with the Vikings and every time I took a province I would take one and give it to the Vikings too. At the end of the game when we finally broke our alliance we had one heck of a great fight!

[phred]

Pericles, I have done that for the Vikings but never for all the opposing factions. If you give the Vikings about 50,000 starting cash they get quite strong and offer a good game right till the end. The other way I have done this was as the Saxons, I was allied with the Vikings and every time I took a province I would take one and give it to the Vikings too. At the end of the game when we finally broke our alliance we had one heck of a great fight!


I may have to try that with the Danes on normal MTW. I'd like to see a strong Danish empire.

:bow: Thanks for the idea Pericles and Satyr. ~:)


edit: I've found the Welsh to be challenging. the last time I played them, I had to resort to massive numbers of assasins to keep my head above water. My wars with my neighbors and the Vikings weakened everyone except the Irish, who just walked in and started taking province after province with practically no opposition.

[Pericles]

Pericles, I have done that for the Vikings but never for all the opposing factions. If you give the Vikings about 50,000 starting cash they get quite strong and offer a good game right till the end. The other way I have done this was as the Saxons, I was allied with the Vikings and every time I took a province I would take one and give it to the Vikings too. At the end of the game when we finally broke our alliance we had one heck of a great fight!

Yes, I have usually found in both the VI and regular MTW campaigns play is much better just by giving the other factions more money :)

Players can then adjust those amounts based on their level of skill. The AI will always give the player a tougher challenge. With more money the AI seems to have little problem in building improvements and better military units.

In the VI campaign I also like to edit the clear forest improvement time down from 16 years to about 8 years. 16 years clearing forest is too long IMO. It keeps the AI from building military units for too long of a period.

Cheers!

[Pericles]

I may have to try that with the Danes on normal MTW. I'd like to see a strong Danish empire.

:bow: Thanks for the idea Pericles and Satyr. ~:)


edit: I've found the Welsh to be challenging. the last time I played them, I had to resort to massive numbers of assasins to keep my head above water. My wars with my neighbors and the Vikings weakened everyone except the Irish, who just walked in and started taking province after province with practically no opposition.

In the regular MTW game giving ALL other factions more florins, gives me a much tougher game. The AI is quite competent. And with more florins, the AI doesn't have to worry about building up a trading empire, only the player has to worry about it :)

Especially, give the Mongols LOTS of florins. Since in the regular game they run a deficit, more florins gives them more oppporunity to build up the provinces they capture. I usually give the Mongols about 1,000,000 florins (when you give other factions more florins don't keep in the commas. It should look like this: 1000000).

In my last game as the Turks, Early/Hard, I gave all other factions 500000 florins. Despite my best efforts, the AI cleaned my clock - heheh. And I love it :) Everybody was launching Crusades against me :)

Giving all factions more florins is a simple, easy way to mod your game.

Have fun!

[Satyr]

Pericles, have you played with any of the mods loaded, medmod, xl mod, or bkb super mod? Medmod in particular makes the game quite challenging especially if you start in the High period. All factions trade really well and with "homelands" the AI tends to concentrate on getting infrastructure built in them and hence they get good troops on the battlefield. Even so, I like to *seed* a couple factions that usually can't get out of their own way (usually the mongols, and often the almos or aragonese or occassionally the poles or huns or even the sicillians). It sure adds a new dimension to the game and more challenge is always a good thing.

[Pericles]

Satyr:

The only mod that I have played for any period is the Helenic Total War Mod. I want to play more mods, but it seems that several of the better mods are being tweaked and new versions will be released soon.

Even so, I am finding that just tweaking the amount of florins I give other factions has given me a good run for my money :)

When I do get bored with that I will be trying out more mods.

I have heard that medmod has some problems with it: if the AI loses its homeland (and thus its unique units) it is doomed to fall. Also if Arab countries conquer say Spain they can't build ships in the Atlantic.

[Satyr]

Medmod 3.14 has been out for a looooong time and is very stable. As to your concerns, if a faction loses all it's homeland provinces it probably is pretty squashed already and deserves to die and make room for the powerful. Shipping was split into two distinct areas so that the AI factions could trade more successfully and boy do they. They actually probably build too many ships now but they get rich trading just like you and me, so they are rich enough to build good troops. Spain is kind of weird in that no one can build ships there that started in the med. However, there are many other provinces in the Atlantic and Baltic that let you build ships. I never quite understood what Wes's intention was regarding shipping as it makes very little sense. However, those two issues just don't matter and the AI makes much better decisions and you can get a great game. It is actually a better game than just starting with more money!

I just loaded the XL mod and so far it seems pretty good. Me (Scots) the French and the Byz are all getting big and the fighting when we meet in battle should be spectacular.

[Pericles]

Medmod 3.14 has been out for a looooong time and is very stable. As to your concerns, if a faction loses all it's homeland provinces it probably is pretty squashed already and deserves to die and make room for the powerful. Shipping was split into two distinct areas so that the AI factions could trade more successfully and boy do they. They actually probably build too many ships now but they get rich trading just like you and me, so they are rich enough to build good troops. Spain is kind of weird in that no one can build ships there that started in the med. However, there are many other provinces in the Atlantic and Baltic that let you build ships. I never quite understood what Wes's intention was regarding shipping as it makes very little sense. However, those two issues just don't matter and the AI makes much better decisions and you can get a great game. It is actually a better game than just starting with more money!

I just loaded the XL mod and so far it seems pretty good. Me (Scots) the French and the Byz are all getting big and the fighting when we meet in battle should be spectacular.

Thanks for the replies. I may give each of the mods a go after a while. I have limited hard drive space, so it would be difficult to have more than one install of MTW and still be able to play other games :)

Even so, just giving other factions more florins does increase playability, and there are no CTDs or other issues due to installing mods :)

BTW, in the VI campaign I have used the Gnome editor to edit forest clearing/farm improvemenst to have the following build times: 2,4,6,8. Should it really take 16 years to clear some forest to build farms (as in the default game)? With my edits it takes only two years to clear forests. This also frees up the AI from spending 16 years building this improvement and thus is NOT building other worthwhile improvements...

Cheers!

[Pericles]

Just started up a new VI Campaign yesterday playing Irish on Hard and gave ALL other factions 100,000 florins each.

Very interesting campaign so far.

After taking over all of Ireland (subdued the Scots there and fought several battles with the Vikings), I have challenged the Vikings for control of the inland waterway between Ireland and the British Isles.

After several major naval clashes with the Vikings I finally established control of the waters just west and south of Ireland. The Vikings control the northern waters off Ireland as well as all other waterways and ocean.

I then managed to invade the British Isles in two places taking over territory from the rebels. However, if I am going to subdue all of the British Isles I am going to have my work cut out for me:

In the south, both the Northumbrians and the Saxons are major superpowers. I am allied with them at the moment, and the Saxons have been very helpful as an ally (they have sent troops to help me in two battles). They have many upgraded units (including the dreaded Huscarles) and they are building a fleet. Both of these countries will be tough to take on.

In the north I don't know too much that is going on (since the Vikings have naval supremacy there, I haven't been able to scout up there), but from what I can tell the Vikings and Scots have been at war for some time.

I may have to try to challenge the Vikings in the northern waters and drive them off, and see if I can start a war with the Scots. One look at the massive Saxon armies in the south makes me realize I am not ready to take on these tough blokes yet...

Should be quite interesting to see what happens...

:charge: