it sucks

[UglyJun]

well i would save myself the 50 bucks on the expansion pack (mongol thingy )
and will get hacked version ea still Hasent fixed the first shogun even all the promises and etc... they have not gone any where towards halfway sorting out the current game and then to have the balls to bring out a add on bug to the existing f.u.c.k.i.n.g mess they promised and nothin i mean nothing happend to sort out the realy major bugs
example units running for no reseon if u to close to edge the aslo run daimjo still kills him self etcc shall i go on the list is endless!!!! so EA before trying to sell us some more crap get shogun right first u (insert major abuse here)..........

[Gregoshi]

Where does the line form to buy that "crap"? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Patch 1.13 (free) will have all the fixes that the Mongul pack will have without all that extraneous stuff (map editor, online campaign, new units, etc).

Gregoshi

[Tenchimuyo]

Gotta have patience man! Patch v1.13 is coming.

[UglyJun]

I am a beta tester dohh!!!i cant talk about the patch, but i can show my frustration with the current game of shogun,wich is still BugHeaven !!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[ShadowKill]

ahhh quit complaining it's getting old

------------------
Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

"Cutting down the enemy is the Way of strategy, and there is no need for much clever refinement of it"

"To this day his memory is honoured and his courage, his shrewdness and his skill in battle are legend."

"No matter whether a person belongs to the upper or lower ranks
If he has put his life on the line at least once
He has no cause for shame"

"After a great fight between two mighty tigers, even a common dog may defeat the survivor"

Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)

[solypsist]

I can only imagine the sort of complaining that's going to appear when the expansion finally does come out, in whatever form is available geographically.
A week after STW came out the most common line was "It could have been so much more...waaaaaa" and so no doubt the expansion will bring about just as much noise from those same people who will rush out and purchase it within 24 hours to play it every waking hour for a month before coming back to bitch that they've gotten bored with it.

[The Daimyo]

I know what Jun is referring to. It's a common malady that aflicts just about anyone who plays the game. It has to do with the units routing for no good reason, and with the fatigue vs. honor vs. morale vs. height vs. etc. calculations that make up this tricky formula that doesn't always work the way it should and sometimes just outrightly bugs out. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

I won't specify the event that ticked him off last, but I was there, and it took me and Octavian plus a bucket of water and some rope to get him to calm down and attempt to rationalize the situation. The problem here is that this has happened FAR TOO MUCH.

Now, when 3 or 4 guys who have played nearly 3000 battles combined start losing it over a "feature", you know it needs to be addressed.
My all time hate is the dreaded "Map-Edged-Bump and Rout" routine that happens in 2vs2,3vs3, and 4vs4 games far too often. That's when you have to ride the edge of the map just to keep on the mathimatically sound High Ground, and then when you do go on the offensive, or defensive, reguardless of the honor and condition of your men, they rout when they get their first boo-boo.

Then they run rough shod and feet-over-head for the back of the map - NEVER ONCE allowing you to Rally them.
It's a pisser.
Perhaps this issue has already been dealt with and we'll see the marked improvement in 1.13. I dunno, cuz I too am a Beta-Tester, and I'm in the dark as much as the rest of you are.

We can always try and write them and ask them, "Hey, WTF?"

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Devil's Advocate]

Jun you know where I stand - I agree fully. The current AI strength/build cheat at Normal difficulty level 7 months after the game's release is still my turn off.

The complaining however, is what got the first two patches going.

As to the "original complaint at the game's release", I remember it relating to EA's failure to include a decent rulebook and tech chart to the non-European world.

STW Warlord edition will come and it will have its own bugs. I'll put money on that - just not on the full priced game. Kids with pocket money you're warned.

[ShadowKill]

MY Advice to "The Daimyo" Stay theheck away from the edge of the map http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

"Cutting down the enemy is the Way of strategy, and there is no need for much clever refinement of it"

"After a great fight between two mighty tigers, even a common dog may defeat the survivor"

Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)

[Gregoshi]

The problem with computer games from a player's stand point is that the computer does all the rules interpretations for you. In a board game, the players apply the rules, they can discuss the situation and come to an agreement on the outcome. With Shogun, we don't get that feedback. We can only guess as to why a particular event happened - if we are observant enough. And because we get no feedback, we as players have to wonder if we are witnessing a bug or the game is working correctly.

I remember my frustration in my Amiga days with a RT Waterloo game where you issue orders, messengers send the order to the unit and then the unit's general can decide if the order makes sense in his current situation. When a unit did not follow my orders when it seemed it could, I always wondered why. Was it a bug? Did the commander override the order? Was the messenger killed on the way? Did I enter the order wrong?

It would be nice if there was a way (via the log file?) to determine what exactly our game was using to determine that a particular unit would rout - and why it didn't rally. It is a bugger when you don't have control over such things and the action doesn't make sense. We are naturally suspicious of such things (we love computers but don't trust'em yet) and either chalk it up to a bug or a cheat.

I've had some of the things descibed happen to me. And I've wondered why too. And been annoyed. But I don't have 1000 games under my belt so maybe that is why I'm just "annoyed".

I take a deep breath and move on. Some day...

Gregoshi

[barocca]

What ever happened to the list of 'improvemnts' the patch would bring?
I can't find it today at the totalwar site.

What concerns me about the upcoming patch is this quote from the list of questions submitted by Erado,
-----------------------------------------
However we’ll also look at giving the defender less of an advantage in different ways - maybe less honour for playing as a defender or less victory points or less koku to spend on your army.
------------------------------------------
less honour? - maybe
less victory points? - maybe
less koku? - NEVER!
I have not played competitive yet, but I have shunted several players from different maps, including hyuga, shinano and yamato playing as attacker. I would hate to see defenders penalised with less koku.

But what can we do?

Hands up those of you who have written to tech support and have never recieved an acknowledgement, let alone a reply!

See my hand waving? It's getting rather tired of waving, it's been up there since October, and despite repeating my mail, and sending follow up mail - it's still up in the air.

EA are not going to listen to 1 or 2 people complaining, it will take some form of organisation or petition.

SO
Anyone want to write some sort of reasonable petition into a form and put it online so we all can sign?
Perhaps have to check mark seperate sections of the petition because we will never get a consensus on a single petition in its entirety. We are simply too diverse in our likes and dislikes.
Having check boxes for each section allows us to agree with the sections we want, and simply not sign those we don't.

Basically fix all the bugs :-
The edge of map 'bump' rout,
The mysterious entire army rout,
Not penalise defender with less koku,
and i'm sure you guys came name dozens more...


If the wheel don't squeak, it gets no oil.


------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[solypsist]

Barocca: regarding your signature tag, my angle on that is: the nail that sticks out gets pounded back in.

If you need/want a petition, just print out evry thread from every forum on here (excepting the OT and History ones) highlight the proper passages and names and then send it in! Some of our hands have been collectively waving since day one.
(I wouldn't want to be in the same room with you while you're trying to phone a goverment agency) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Devil's Advocate]

Barocca I sent a letter to the Victorian Department of Fair Trading!

Give it a go and tell them about the bugs and the promises to fix bugs.

I'm certain that the standard EA disclaimer obviating the comapny from liability if a game has bugs does not stand up under Australian law. Check the back of the User Manual. Contractually no game has to work once you've paid for it. Nice.

[Devil's Advocate]

PS - the only thing is that the disclaimer is inside the sealed box!

[Methabaron]

I am not buying the expansion neither, Jun.

This is one of the most powerfull convincing weapons we have.

Also sending letters to magazines, posting in this and other forums etc, and of course... The Victorian Department of Fair Trading or similar in other countries, no kidding.

It is pretty amazing how these guys keep on being nominated for awards... I guess the nominators have not played these games for more than a couple of hours... that or maybe it is just that the nominations are given to the games LESS bugged after all... in any case I would strongly recommend the nominators of any of these awards to thoroughly check the community fan forums belonging to each game considered for nominations before nominating anything... I would make the forum checks part of the awards routine...

I am very much afraid that designers only do what THEY want. And you can consider yourself lucky if one of those times what they want happens to be what YOU want. If they think fixing the problems that we have now in STW is not economically justifiable, then they will not solve them, period. If in the other hand launching an expansion like they plan to do has been proved (by market studies etc etc) with high chances of success then thats what they will do.

They only attend to profit, they only hear the sound of money. And I do not blame them for that because that is life. The only way to make them do what we want is convincing them that they will lose money if they do not listen to us and react accordingly:

I am not buying the Mongol's Expansion that is for sure.

Metha

------------------
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

We're getting a bit melodramatic now, yes?

I don't play MP, so it's impossible for me to say whether the bugs seriously interfere with online play or not. (They certainly don't interfere with my SP gaming.) But I will say this:

The last patch for this game was released last Autumn - heck, I don't even remember the month, but my best guess is September. It has been established that the 1.12 release is still buggy. Okay, that's a bummer, but at least most people are able to play the game (MP too) and the problems are more an exception than a rule, which is more than can be said for many, many other games (especially only after 1 major and 3 minor revisions).

CA has promised to give us version 1.13. They promised it in November, I know. A lot of problems with the game have come up only since then (eg the Geforce 2 MX bug, the rout bomb). But CA has promised that the patch will be released. Nobody knows at this stage why it's been so much delayed, but I seriously doubt they've held off releasing it just to honk off Jun & Metha. There are a few possible reasons for the delay, but I think one of the most credible ones is that they're busy fixing the various bugs that have come up only recently.

As can be surmised, I'm confident that we won't have to wait long for the patch. What it will fix is another matter, but we really can't know that yet. So patience, again.

And by the way. If you're ready to commit yourselves to not buying the expansion, just because the STW devs haven't fixed bugs in the original release, then by all means do. However, not buying the game because you're a "discriminating consumer" and then getting a w4r3z version is pretty pathetic. If you think STW and its developers are such crap, why bother even touching their products? "Protesting" is about the lamest excuse for theft that I can think of. Get a grip.

------------------
"Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, / With the very bluest stockings, / On the ground the haft set firmly, / On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, / Turned the point against his bosom, / And upon the point he threw him, / Thus he found the death he sought for, / Cast himself into destruction."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 335-342

[barocca]

solypsist
mate, your comment about my sign off line!

Have a realy good think about that!

I could easily and justifiably shame you with a major flame here, I could quote countless historical and current event references that would make your argument worthless.

For Example!
The online koku cheat? Richie was given exact details on how this cheat is accomplished by a newbie player in October 2000.

When that newbie got ignored he went to some of the highly respected players around here and showed them how it was done.
It took those players harrassing Richie and the boys about the online koku cheat to get them to fix it.
If these respected players had 'kept their heads in' does anybody really think anything would have been done?


Shogun is only a game.
Players have found bugs and players have suggestions for improvements.

Using your philosophy no-one would ever tell Erado they are having problems,
no-one would contribute when they ask us for our input, where do we want the game to go,
what would we like to see in the expansion pack.
We would all be afraid of getting hammered back in.


Seriously, if you keep your heads in, then you deserve all the garbage you get.
If you stick your heads out you have a better than even chance of accomplishing something.

no one gets to hammer this nail back in!


------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[wigwam86]

BRAVO barocca!

[UglyJun]

thx guys i could not have sad it any better
i bow for snaping and losing it above but
sombody had to say somthing and your support is great ... i thought i have gone mad hehehe and its only me that got a prob with the AI of shogun ... i love this game and that why i offerd to beta test and help out but i guees thats not enough sighh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

[LinkOctavian]

I'm just as pissed off as anyone about the large number of bugs in STW but i'm not going to give up on it or not get the add i cant wait for the add on because things can only get better from here right.
I do Agree with Jun in saying they should have fixed up the bugs in the game before thinking about an add on.
Shogun is still the best war game around and i'm going to stick around like a thorn in CA&EA's side till things are fixed up.

[LinkOctavian]

Oh and by the way i'm also pissed off about being an Ashi lol
I thought i was going to get an upgrade for being a Daimyo an for being a part of the old guard???.

[The Daimyo]

Well Octavian, You're still cool to me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

IF this were my bar, we'd having dancing girls and Octavian would be on the VIP list every night! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Tell ya what, come by my forums and I'll give you an honorable title that befits your longevity http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[LinkOctavian]

whoohoo trust my old mate Miaowara to come up with the goods your a champ get the dancing girls ready i'm on my way.

[solypsist]

Barocca: No disrespect intended.

Originally I had a long reply on the inherent uselessness of spending more than minute caring about the (manipulated or fair) ending of a video game, but in the end it's all a matter of priorities.
Do what you have to do to sleep at night, guys. I'm sure your efforts will pay off for us all in the end.



[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 01-23-2001).]