Total War factions vs. Lord of the Rings factions?

[Marquis of Roland]

We had a long off-topic discussion about LOTR in the colusseum and I'm opening a new off topic thread here.

Imagine if the factions in LOTR (from silmarillion to ROTK) were somehow transplanted into MTW, RTW, STW, etc. How would the existing factions match up to them?

[Craterus]

As in Gondor, Rohan, Mordor etc?

[tigger_on_vrb]

How about this for a battle?
Good:
Dwarves (huscarles)
Elves (long bow men)
Gondorians (chivalric men at arms)
Rohan (feudal nights / boyars)

vs

Evil:
Orcs (bulgarian brigands)
Uruks (JHI, cross bow men, beserks)
Wargs - suggestions anyone? maybe camels?
Or is that just too cheesey - the forces of evil riding those ridiculous looking things??

Should be a interesting battle!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

The dwarves would be nearly unstoppable in melee, remember the Battle of Sudden Flame (I think that was the one) from the Silmarillion? The dwarves killed dragons with their infantry, masks and heavy armor protected them from the flames and claws of the dragons.

[Colovion]

It would be an anti-climax.

LOTR has mystical elements which can't be transferred to a tangible state.

They're most amazing in the imagination than attempting to transcribe them into reality.

[Drisos]

Isn't this frontroom stuff?
------------------------
anyway,

The TW army would win, in LOTR, remeber the battle at the gounds in front of minas tirith? (the final battle)

Men can defeat Orcs and so on, so the Samurai would defeat them too. ~D

[Craterus]

If you were to combine all LOTR "units", if you like, and all TW units. And have a huge war between the two armies. Well, I mean take TW units of choice and LOTR units of choice. LOTR would always win.

Elves would beat all. They have 10 times the range of any other archers and 1000 times better accuracy.

Dwarves beat Beserkers, easily.

Then you have Men vs. Men. With the help of orcs etc.

LOTR also has wizards, face it, TW could not win.

[Drisos]

About the wizards, Craterus,

Would gandalf try to destroy the TW world? I think his good heart would tell him to help TW out, that makes us to have a wizard too, besides, our general (tosainu) is far better than theirs(sauron), which only is an eye.

How do you know all that things on elves, have you learned that in Biology class? ~D

[Craterus]

I estimated the stats on elves but they would be loads better than Cretans.

Would TW try to conquer and pillage MIddle Earth? Most probably, greedy Romans take all land they can get their hands on. Gandalf would fight to save Middle Earth.

[Colovion]

LOTR Elephants > TW Elephants

[Drisos]

Would TW try to conquer and pillage MIddle Earth? Most probably, greedy Romans take all land they can get their hands on. Gandalf would fight to save Middle Earth.

~D Yep.

I quite dislike orcs, but also the romans, I prefer Japanese samurai.

[Abokasee]

TW could win because of elephants er no they still won't be able to because haradrim mulakai's!!


:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:
:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Balrogs and all sorts of Mair (demigods, spelling may be wrong) and Valar would be literally unstoppable.

I think the samurai would beat all the LOTR infantry and cavalry other than dwarves and perhaps elves.

[Marquis of Roland]

hmmm....I wonder how samurai would do against chivalric foot knights. I mean, I don't know if their swords were heavy enough to penetrate the armor? Maybe naginatas....???

[Craterus]

Hehe Mummakil are pretty unstoppable.

Mummakil vs. Yubtseb !!!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I am sure the samurai could get the knights in the armpit. I know of several instances where kings/lords were killed by arrows to the armpit, I am sure a katana would be able to penetrate as well. If not then the back of the knight or the joints would be another good target.

Ever play BFME Craterus? With their abundant supply of fire arrows the armies of RTW would easily thwart the Mumakil.

[Marquis of Roland]

A katana is a slashing weapon; if fighting heavily armored knights, you would have turned a unmatched slashing weapon into a stabbing weapon, which it really wasn't designed for.

Another thing: I'm assuming the knights would be in formation chopping down with their halberds. Though samurai are superb close-in fighters I think they would take tremendous casualties to just get in to their kill zone.

Martial arts skill would help them incapacitate (make them fall down, which I think a knight would have to put considerable effort in getting back up) the knights, so as soon as they penetrate past the longer halberds, they would have an upper hand?

A katana kills by being extremely sharp; a european military sword at the time I believe killed by being extremely heavy. Would a katana be able to block a stroke from say a claymore?

Elven archers would outrange all TW archers, except I think Mongolian bowmen can shoot roughly as far and with the same penetrating power (that was something that always annoyed me in MTW: longbowmen could shoot farther than mongol horse archers. If I remember correctly, the mongol archers outranged the longbow by a hundred yards plus had more velocity). I don't believe the elves used compound bows? I wonder what kind of material they used to make their bows....

Mumakils - how many armored elephants would it take to take out one of those?

Looks like Rohirrim uses 3 types of cavalry - horse archers, lancers, and axe cavalry (for close in melee I guess). What would they be equivalent to in TW series? Their horse archers I think equal Byzantine cavalry, their lancers feudal knights, and axe cav Mamluk cavalry.

And did anyone notice that everyone in the main Gondorian army wears plate mail armor? Even their archers wear plate mail. Only the rangers do not, for obvious reasons (I think they still have a set for times they KNOW they're going into a wild bar brawl).

Kensai vs. Aragorn: who would you put money on?

ONE MORE THING:
Let's say conjecturally that MAGIC IS NOT ALLOWED with TW vs. LOTR.

[Drisos]

Kensai vs. Aragorn

I would put $1.000.000 on the Kensai if it was Tokugawa Ieyasu.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

The katana can still be used as a stabbing weapon and as long as you kill your enemy who cares how you use the weapon?

The katana would probably have trouble blocking a claymore or other greatsword, it might not shatter or crack but I would think it would not block the blow entirely.

Maybe they could use smoke bombs to get in close? Smoke bombs were present and though they were not used by samurai that I know of with enough time fighting knights they would probably devise that tactic or another to allow them to close to killing range.

I think the elves just used normal long or shortbows, maybe made out of a special elven wood or yew.

Mumakils would be unmatched on the battlefield unless you follow BFME, then a unit of normal archers would be able to use fire arrows and get rid of at least 1 Mumakil per volley.

I agree with your analysis of the Rohirrim.

The Gondorian soldiers should use more than just plate, but if they did use only plate their archers would be inferior, but their infantry would be superior foot knights.

I would bet on Aragorn, he has the sword of Elendil and is a ranger. Has a lot of experience and is crafty, while the Kensai... i never played MI, only STW...

So no Valar or Mair, but would Balrogs, Ents, Trolls or other magical critters be allowed?

[Marquis of Roland]

Magical creatures allowed...if it can be killed by TW units. Therefore, Ents, trolls, dragons, etc. would be allowed, and if a balrog can be killed by nonmagical weapons (say, a barrage from a battalion of catapults?) then yes they are allowed.

I just don't want any god or demigod who can't be killed blasting everyone in sight.

I don't think samurai would use smoke bomb tactic. They'd probably think it too dishonorable or something.

Yes, you can still kill by using katana as a pure stabbing weapon, I'm saying it just wouldn't be as efficient as it would be if you can slash as well. Ineffectiveness with your main combat weapon equals more casualties for you.

What is BFME??? Probably use catapult to take out mumakils.

[Aldaceleb]

Nobody hasn't noticed Angalacon the Black yet...

[Dutch_guy]

Marquis

BFME is ''The Battle for Middle-Earth '' a pc game.
I have a copy, but it doesn't work so I really have no idea how good it is ~;)

:balloon2:

[Marquis of Roland]

Not following BFME then I guess....I mean, armored elephants in RTW are practically invulnerable to any kind of arrow fire anyway, imagine a mumakil.

normal orcs = byzantine infantry?
uruk-hai pikes = lower morale swiss armored pikemen or gothic sergeants?

[Sardo]

I think one must also distinguish between the LotR book and the movies here. Mûmakil, for instance, in the book aren't quite the humongous beasts we see in the movie (though still very impressive and definitely a fair bit larger than our elephants). Balrogs may not have had wings (though this is a topic which will cause total wars as well). ~;)

There are more troop types in the book than in the movies. There are the Easterlings from beyond the Sea of Rhûn, the axe-armed Variags of Khand, the large infantrymen of the Haradrim as well as the Southron cavalry. On the side of good, we see a number of different troop types when the reinforcements from the Outlands enter Minas Tirith. These range from the herdsfolk and fishermen of the Langstrand to the 'gallant' archers of the Green Hills and the Swan-knights of Dol Amroth. A bit more diversity than in the movies, in all.

Also, I seem to recall that Tolkien never mentions the use of plate armour, except for the vanbrace of Imrahil (which he holds to Eowyn's mouth to see if she's still breathing). In fact, I believe whenever a character is said to be wearing armour, he's in a mail coat (chain, or as in Rohan, scales). But then, he doesn't make it absolutely clear that plate armour was not in use either, so maybe it's just up to personal preference, and it does look pretty neat in the movies.


Oh, and just one teensy little nitpick, because I just can't help myself.
1 mûmak, 2 mûmakil.
:bow:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

In BFME a volley of fire arrows would set a Mumakil aflame and quickly kill it.

Desperation may have caused the samurai to use smoke bombs, but they could have probably done it in another way as well.

Also Balrogs are demigods, Mair, but they could be killed so they should be included.

I think orcs would be more like the barbarians in Rome, if not a little weaker.

In reality I would use catapaults to kill those Mumakil, or maybe cannon...

[Marquis of Roland]

Yeah, any god/demigod in mortal/material form that can lose their physical body is included.

Don't know if Orcs should be weaker than barbarians, I mean, those guys have only their trousers for armor and the orcs (even lowly ones) wear at least some kind of armor. The Uruks looked like they had pretty decent plate armor that is standardized, and their morale should be at least "good". All orcs should have "may charge without orders" attribute I think, though. Their weapons, though crude, should be of good quality as well.

Also, since orcs are descendants of captured Avari elves that were twisted in Morgoth's image, do they live forever as well? I don't think I've ever seen an "old" orc ever before.....

So I think regular orcs should still equal something along the line of byzantine infantry, huge mixed unit (spears and swords and axes???) and thats how the byzantine infantry do damage, their unit can use numbers to wrap around enemy flanks.

We should go with the book in any case of conflict between the book and movie, after all the book is the definitive original.

Gondorian city guards = chivalric sergeants/chivalric MAA? (semi-plate mail?)
provincial troops = feudal sergeants/MAA? (chain mail main armor)
Archers from the black swamp/green hills(??) - futuwwas?

Variags of Khand = Abyssinian Guards!!!!

What would the fountain Guards be?

Southron cav = Ottoman sipahi/Steppe Heavy cav?

Easterling infantry = Eastern Infantry (that one was simple lol) + hillmen?

Haradrim infantry = Saracen infantry/Janissary Heavy Infantry (gotta gives them something good....those halberds in the movie looked nasty)

Elven infantry = Janissary infantry with better defense, and longbow range. Or perhaps sherwood foresters?

All Rohirrim infantry should come from the "feudal" class.

A repeating ballista should be able to bring down a mumakil after a couple good volleys. Unless the thickness of the mumakil's armor is directly related to how much bigger it is than a regular elephant, then you'd literally have to lob boulders at it (much like pre-historic times ~:cheers: )

[Steppe Merc]

Not including the wizards, still think the Lord of the rings would kick ass.
Rohhirrim would probably suffer a bit against some of the heavier horses in the latest eras like Gothic and Lancers, and against Muslim and Steppe horse archery, but Dwarves would have superior infantry by far, Gondor would kick ass, Elves would slaughter even composite bow weidling Muslims, and Orcs would rip apart almost all other infantry.

[Dutch_guy]

hmmm Don't now which faction would win. depends who would have the Ring first ~;)

Someone just had to say that ~D

:balloon2:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Even if the TW armies destroyed the LOTR armies they would never breach a Dwarven stronghold. An army of Gothic knights would not be able to get past it.

Just think Gimli's 43 kills at Helm's Deep and multiply it by the population of dwarves and then by the quality of the fortifications. Meat walls to be sure.

[Laridus Konivaich]

It depends maybe on the landscape where this is being fought, see if the locations were meshed together, then LOTR kills TW, especially when the TW forces have to assault gondor. Remember that it took trolls wielding a rather large ram to bring down the gate?

[Marquis of Roland]

I believe Gimli was one of the "better" dwarves at close combat lets say. Don't think all of them are that good, if they were why was the battle of the five armies in hobbit such a close run thing?

It may have taken trolls wielding a rather large (and magical) battering ram, but TW has culverins and cannons!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Let's assume they mesh, that way the Dwarves get their ancestral homes and the Total War armies get Constantinople and such.

Yeah, but I bet the crack guards that man the Dwarven ancestral homes are as good or better than Gimli. Constant warfare between them and the goblins, orcs, trolls and other beasties of the deep would make them the best of the best.

I think the Dwarves at that battle were a bit bad.... Besides it was for children, had to be close or there would be no big climax after Smaug. Also three way battles are a horrible meat grinder. Who knows if the dwarves were in the middle or butchered both sides at once with neither the elves or the goblins fighting each other much at all?