Wedge formation

[dancingthemantaray]

wedge formation....does anyone use it & if so what for/with whom?

[ichi]

Welcome to the Org dancingthemantaray :balloon2: :balloon2:

I do not use Wedge Form for routine melee, but it does have a few uses. The rate of loss is too high and Close Form works quite well. Wedge Form has some value for manuevering.

Since I use heavy cavalry 2 ranks deep it can be quite useful to quickly place a unit on Wedge Form to make it squeeze thru a hole or gap in the line to get behind the enemy. Once through I reform them to Close.

Same with pavs and pure missile units. I use my pavs 2 deep and sometimes they need to maneuver around. When in 2 deep Close Form they are long and unweildy, vulnerable to charges by enemy cav or hits from missiles. By quickly placing pavs in Wedge Form they can be easily moved around. In MP I like to leave them on Wedge Form once I switch to it as it makes it easier to quickly visually identify a pav unit.

Since Wedge Form add +3 to Att (and -3 to Def IIRC) Wedge can be useful when using a low Att unit in a flanking/rear charge. If I have a good unit of Archers and they run out of ammo, then I can place them on Wedge Form to make them easier to maneuver and ten leave them on Wedge as I send them into the back of an enemy unit that is tied up fighting one of my infantry units.

When using Wedge Form I like to also use Hold Form.

Don't routinely use Wedge Form for fighting, but use it in the special circumstances for manuevering and flanking.

ichi :bow:

ps interesting name care to elaborate on the origin?

[Quietus]

Wedge formation is an essential part of MTW. You must use them with your cavalry and shock troops and drive them at the backs of your enemy whilst they are pinned by another one of your unit.

Don't use them frontally with the cavalry though unless your are charging archers.

After you've driven with your wedge, if the AI unit doesn't rout immediately, revert back to normal formation (or else you will lose a lot of units). However, that this is a rare occurance, only when you use a very weak flanker to wedge-charge, and the AI unit is very powerful.

Or if completely free, just click halt then re-charge back (only when as the flanker). You should do this with the spear "pinner" at front as well at their regular formation (just don't put them on wedge). :charge:

edit: BTW, welcome to the .ORG dancingthemantaray

[CBR]

Wedge gives sword/axe armed infantry an advantage versus spears as the spear unit wont recieve any rank bonuses. So the wedge formation has one very useful purpose when you face spear units.


CBR

[bretwalda]

This IS very useful info!

Simple and short:
Use wedge when attacking from the rear or when attacking spear troops with sword.

Is this true rule of thumb?


:wink:

[CBR]

I have never used wedge when doing rear attacks. A rear attack can be devastating and you want as many men as possible to hit the enemy unit and a wedge doesnt do that.

I only use wedge for anti spear work but it can be used for maneuvering too although I prefer to use columns instead to move through a small hole in the enemy line.


CBR

[bretwalda]

Hmm. I see. I reckon wedge also moves faster...? So then it is useful to move troops like that. Also it is certainly good to quickly change between an elongated (like 20x2) shape to a rather compact wedge form.

[Zion_Raven]

The manual makes it seem that the wedge formation is supposed to be used by well armored cavalry in a charge against harrassed troops. For instance, a troop that has just gone through a missle bombardment and/ or had their flank left unprotected or just had poor morale to begin with.

I stopped doing this because I was not getting the expected results. In real battles, until the advent of disciplined spear type units and infantry (ie roman, but rare until much later in history), cavalry was used as a battering ram which ideally broke THROUGH the enemy formation sometimes by literally running men down (over). They could then turn and hit the enemy from behind. It was all about breaking the formation (if the particular troops even used anything more than a rudimentary line). Both shogun and MTW seem to have a "combat stickiness" which makes such breakthroughs impossible as the men seem to peel off and stay fighting and the enemy "sticks" to them locking troops in place or creating large amounts of stragglers (and thus casualties).

I would love to see a "charge through" command. It would only be for cavalry and would function as described above; breaking through troops and rallying behind them for another charge.

I do also really appreciate the info on swords vs spears, that is very useful indeed!

And thats My two cents. (It may be worth less by the time you read this though, inflation and all...~smile~)

[CBR]

It is good for changing from a line to a compact formation with just one click/key yes. There is no difference in speed so no advantage there.


CBR

[Zion_Raven]

All that just to interupt your conversation. My apologies, gentlemen.

[Togakure]

One thing I've noticed, experimenting with Yas' unit master tool, is that some units with high charge and attack values actually take fewer casualties against some units when in Wedge Formation. I think this is because they kill so much faster, thus routing the opposing unit faster. I had been under the impression that Wedge would always cause higher casualties and should only be used when killing fast was imperative.

Thanks for the tip regarding Wedge negating the Spear Bonus, CBR. I didn't know that. Contrary to popular opinions expressed here, I've noticed that some of the highly skilled VI players do use spear units in 10K games, and to good effect (one of Hikaru's Muwahid managed to poink my gen in the flank yesterday--gah!).

Is it practical to change formation while engaged (say in the situation I just mentioned, when I got hit by the Muwahids)? If I had quickly switched to Wedge while fighting them, would it have negated their spear bonus for the remainder of that engagement?

Welcome, dancingthemantaray.

[mfberg]

I use wedge for ease in maneuvering, It keeps your unit in a compact formation. If I use it in combat when I hit a space between two lines with a wedge I will wait a teensie bit and then change to line formation.

mfberg

[CBR]

IIRC Yas' unit tool is not good for combat calculations. There are some issues with it and it definitely doesnt have the special wedge v spear thingie nor is pushback properly done either.


I've noticed that some of the highly skilled VI players do use spear units in 10K games, and to good effect

Spears can be good but (and I think I have used them more than a lot of skilled players) I normally win be surprising people as they dont know the strength or weaknesses of spears and just charge straight into them. Anyone who knows what he is doing and I would be toast.

I really only used spears when I was tired of the usual sword/cav armies. If I was playing to win I actually just had one army and no spears there heh. And if playing for fun I would use same army ~:) ... most other armies I have tried that involved spears or polearms just meant lots of work and rarely any fun heh.


Is it practical to change formation while engaged

It might not have the same effect of disrupting the spear unit as you sometimes would see if charging while in wedge. But it should still mean something if you change to wedge after melee started.


CBR

[Sir William Wallace]

The manual makes it seem that the wedge formation is supposed to be used by well armored cavalry in a charge against harrassed troops. For instance, a troop that has just gone through a missle bombardment and/ or had their flank left unprotected or just had poor morale to begin with.

I stopped doing this because I was not getting the expected results. In real battles, until the advent of disciplined spear type units and infantry (ie roman, but rare until much later in history), cavalry was used as a battering ram which ideally broke THROUGH the enemy formation sometimes by literally running men down (over). They could then turn and hit the enemy from behind. It was all about breaking the formation (if the particular troops even used anything more than a rudimentary line). Both shogun and MTW seem to have a "combat stickiness" which makes such breakthroughs impossible as the men seem to peel off and stay fighting and the enemy "sticks" to them locking troops in place or creating large amounts of stragglers (and thus casualties).

I would love to see a "charge through" command. It would only be for cavalry and would function as described above; breaking through troops and rallying behind them for another charge.

I do also really appreciate the info on swords vs spears, that is very useful indeed!

And thats My two cents. (It may be worth less by the time you read this though, inflation and all...~smile~)

i agree, this would be a nicely added feature to break through a line and rally behind for another. so often did this turn the tide of a battle in history, it should have been accounted for in the game

[Zion_Raven]

Hail Maximus! We who are about to die salute you!

Thanks for the comment.

I was thinking about this a little more and realized that I had left out an infantry unit, (really a spear unit) that had the same shock effect; the unit was outmoded long before the time period for MTW and I don't have RTW, but I have read of accounts in Xenophon's march of the Ten thousand of Greek Phalanxes (sp) doing the same type of charge throughs that cavalry did...only on foot....lol...(that was a small joke)

Ok, a VERY small joke.

Salute!

[Martok]

I tend to use wedge formation with troops that qualify as FAF ("fire-and-forget") units, as they usually have a high attack/defense ratio--Gazi Infantry and Highland Clansmen are both pretty good examples. In most battles, wedge formation maximizes their effectiveness.

Now obviously, FAF units aren't very good at holding the line like spears and pikes are, nor are they particularly well-suited to brawling/slugging matches (such as men-at-arms, AUM's, etc). What FAF units are generally best at is leading an intrepid (i.e., suicidal) charge against powerful and/or unbroken enemy units. In my experience, wedge formation is ideal for units carrying out this task. ~D

Unlike heavy cav, where you generally have them strike, withdraw, wheel around and strike again; all you have to do with FAF units is unleash them on their targets. You have them inflict as many casualties as possible before they are forced to withdraw, and/or are completely wiped out (I love Gazi Infantry; with a couple morale bonuses, they often fight to the death!).

In any case, that's when I find wedge formation to be useful. Since it increases a FAF unit's (already high) attack bonus, it fits them quite well. Aside from FAF units, however, I never touch it anymore. Close formation is usually a much better fit for most units, even heavy cavalry.

[sephirothno12000]

I use the Wedge Formation for multiple reasons myself. One in that it does keep for strong mobility. I usually either use wedge to attack the flanks while spearmen attack head on, or, if I'm short on spearmen, I send a couple of cavalry in with wedge and send up my infantry after, then reform into close.

[Kommodus]

I'm sure wedge formation has many uses which I haven't fully exploited. However, a couple of interesting things I've used wedge for include the following:

1. Getting my horse archers out of trouble when they're in a tight spot. They can turn a lot quicker and more effectively in wedge, and are less likely to get caught by pursuing melee troops.

2. Charging cavalry through narrow holes that open up within the enemy's line, for a charge into their rear or at their archers. The narrower formation makes it possible for them to squeeze through.

I see a lot of other great uses in this thread, as well.

[antisocialmunky]

The manual makes it seem that the wedge formation is supposed to be used by well armored cavalry in a charge against harrassed troops. For instance, a troop that has just gone through a missle bombardment and/ or had their flank left unprotected or just had poor morale to begin with.

I stopped doing this because I was not getting the expected results. In real battles, until the advent of disciplined spear type units and infantry (ie roman, but rare until much later in history), cavalry was used as a battering ram which ideally broke THROUGH the enemy formation sometimes by literally running men down (over). They could then turn and hit the enemy from behind. It was all about breaking the formation (if the particular troops even used anything more than a rudimentary line). Both shogun and MTW seem to have a "combat stickiness" which makes such breakthroughs impossible as the men seem to peel off and stay fighting and the enemy "sticks" to them locking troops in place or creating large amounts of stragglers (and thus casualties).

I would love to see a "charge through" command. It would only be for cavalry and would function as described above; breaking through troops and rallying behind them for another charge.

I do also really appreciate the info on swords vs spears, that is very useful indeed!

And thats My two cents. (It may be worth less by the time you read this though, inflation and all...~smile~)

*dobut this will be read due to RTW* If you get a copy of Vanilla MTW, there was something like the 'charge through' except it was a bug and you could just walk through infantry with cavalry(this was broken in MP and thus patched).

[Patron]

I did a few experiments using feudal men at arms against feudal seargants and I noticed a few things.

The formation works better if you begin your charge from a distance to allow the soldiers to close up their formation before impact.

Sometimes when charging weaker units with cavalry I double click behind the enemy unit so that the cavalry maintains their formation as they charge and don't bump into each other in dissarray after picking their targets 10 seconds before they close in... I charged whilst maintaining formation, in the wedge and line formation and I encounterred 4 different possible outcomes.

I cwmf in line formation and the feudal men at arms crushed into the line of feudal seargants, stepping back when they were attacked by 3 ranks of spearmen or pushing forward to break their formation. I took around 50 casualties before I won.

I cwmf in line formation again, except my general was stopped by the enemy general when he was forced to fight a feudal seargant and his entire retinue of 120 men stopped charging aswell, I lost my charge advantage and victory cost the lives of around 70 men.

I cwmf in a wedge formation and the general made contact with the other general and again 120 armoured men came to a sudden halt, my general then auto-engaged and they began to attack and break the enemy formation taking 90 casualties.

I cwmf in a wedge formation and my general charged through about 2 ranks and then auto-engaged and began fighting his way through the confused mass of spearmen towards the enemy general and the rest of my men at arms engaged and kept a rough wdge formation, no one was killed immediately, but once the fighting started my men at arms chopped the out of formation seargants to pieces at a cost of 30 men at arms.

So a wedge formation is good for taking a spear wall frontally, though only if you cwmf and point your charge away from the enemy general. If you don't have any armour it might be an idea to switch back to line formation.

When taking spearmen I used to create a very wide line and double click on the spearmen to engage, during the melee a group of melee infantry would group up either side of the spearwall and I would then left click and drag a thicker formation behind the spearmen to encourage this group of men at arms to overlap the spearmen and begin chewing them to pieces. It's might be an idea to attack defensively with a wide line and then change to wedge formation, but I haven't tried this yet.

[bretwalda]

I am sorry for being noob but what is "cwmf" ?

[Patron]

Everyone except me is a n00b!!

I Charged Whilst Maintaining Formation, in the wedge and line formation and I encounterred 4 different possible outcomes.***

[Zion_Raven]

That is very interesting.

Taht idea of clicking past the troops could account for cavalry charge throughs!!

When you are saying charged while in formation, are you saying that your troops are in hold or that you have allowed them the time to form up?

[Patron]

oops..

I meant they stay in formation because you click past them instead of each soldier choosing it's own target causing them to bump into their friends when they charge.

Like this

[your selected unit] [enemy unit] (double click here)

I only use hold formation with spearmen, unless their formation is broken and they are better off engaging at will.

[Togakure]

Many MP players click behind a target unit or group when attacking, paticularly with the main infantry line. The thing is though, if you don't assign specific targets before they impact, you won't get a charge bonus. For defensive troops, like spearmen and byzantine infantry set to Hold/Hold, this can be desirable as their strength is in their defense, not their charge and attack. But for cav and infantry units with strong charge and attack factors, it's best to click behind your targets to get them to charge in formation, but then assign specific targets to each charging unit as they approach so they get a charge bonus.

[CBR]

In MTW 1.0/1.1 and VI 2.0 you would still recieve a charge bonus when you clicked behind the enemy unit (the charge bonus came automatically when running)

But with the VI patch 2.01 the charge was changed so it worked like it did in STW and you now had to click on the enemy target to recieve the bonus.

It did mean a change to tactics as you no longer could make large attacks with your whole army by just selecting all and double click behind the enemy line, or drag the line and then hit the run key.

AFAIK the main reason for this change in the 2.01 patch is that it was a simple way of fixing the swipe bug.


CBR

[Togakure]

In MTW 1.0/1.1 and VI 2.0 you would still recieve a charge bonus when you clicked behind the enemy unit (the charge bonus came automatically when running)

But with the VI patch 2.01 the charge was changed so it worked like it did in STW and you now had to click on the enemy target to recieve the bonus.

It did mean a change to tactics as you no longer could make large attacks with your whole army by just selecting all and double click behind the enemy line, or drag the line and then hit the run key.

AFAIK the main reason for this change in the 2.01 patch is that it was a simple way of fixing the swipe bug.


CBR
Ah ... interesting. I only play STW-MI and VI 2.01 now, so I'm glad to hear I have been operating under the correct information. Perhaps this is one reason why so many still play MTW 1.1? I've been under the impression it was because of an attachment to the swipe bug, but didn't know that you could receive a charge bonus without explicitly selecting a target. I can see how many would be loath to give up such an easy method of attacking effectively, as selecting targets for multiple units while running towards the enemy requires fast selection and target clicking (lost many a battle because I messed this up). Still, I think I prefer the newer method. The former seems too easy to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Zion_Raven]

In my ignorance I ask; What is the "swipe bug"? ~:confused:

[Togakure]

I've only heard and read about it, as I've not played MTW 1.1 MP. My understanding is that the swipe bug occurs when cavalry attack in a specific way, causing the attacking cav unit to gain a perpetual Charge Bonus for that attack. The way it was described to me, cav units are spread out in a single line, and then ordered to run to a point behind their target. The player intentionally has one side of the line hit the intended target--but avoids the flag bearer of the target (supposedly if the cav line hits the flag bearer the "swipe" is negated). The line then wraps around the target, adding the infinite Charge Bonus to its attack. To manuever better and disguise the intention to swipe, players who use this rather dubious technique will often draw out the unit in a single line, then put them in Wedge formation. Just before attacking they change from Wedge to Close.

If my perception of the swipe is incorrect, I'd love to hear someone who knows more about it describe how it actually works. The above description is based on the testimony of several good players that I know, and discussion threads about the bug that were posted here in the past.

[Patron]

So the bug would allow a bunch of hobilars to charge through 120 valour 4 halberdiers with a +3 armour and weapon bonus without slowing down?

[ichi]

That's a little bit of an extreme example Patron

The swipe bug just gave a unit the charge bonus even if you clicked behind the enemy and told your unit to run. Without the swipe you musy tell your unit to charge into an enemy directly in order to get the charge bonus.

ichi :bow:

[CBR]

The swipe bug was more then that actually. It gave infinite charge bonus IIRC. But it still depended on stats so low quality units couldnt do the same as high quality units: My chiv knights were always better at it than say Horsearchers.

I have seen 2-3 ranks of enemy cavalry be wiped out just because I came in at the right angle. It was a highly devastating bug and a bit random sometimes if both players tried to swipe each other and it could happen even if none of the players wanted to swipe.

And of course cavalry couldnt do it against spearmen, at least not from the front.

So I doubt your hobilars would do that much against so highly upgraded Halbs but most likely they would still do more than in VI 2.01


CBR

[wallace]

Is it stating the obvious to warn against using wedge with your king or 8 star General unit unless you don't mind the possibility of them being the first casualty?