Madoc , the 1170 welsh Colony and America

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

History and legend have it that MADOC, a son of King Owain of Gwynedd, is claimed not only to have discovered America in 1170, but also to have formed a tribe on the upper Missouri. This tribe fuelled tales of fair-haired Indians, living in round huts and using round coracle-like boats, both of which were common in Wales, but unheard of in America at the time. They were also said to speak a language similar to Welsh.

Owain Gwynedd, ruler of North Wales in the
twelfth century, had nineteen children, six of whom were legitimate. MADOC, one of the bastard sons, was born in a castle at Dolwyddelan, a village at the head of the Lledr valley between Betws-y-Coed and Blaenau Ffestiniog.


On the death of Owain Gwynedd in December1169, the brothers fought amongst themselves for the right to rule Gwynedd. MADOC, although being brave and adventurous, was a man of peace. He and his brother, Riryd, left the quay on the Afon (River) Ganol at Aber-Kerrik-Gwynan, on the North Wales Coast (now Rhos-on-Sea) in two ships, the Gorn Gwynant and the Pedr Sant. They sailed west, leaving the coast of Ireland 'farre north' and landed in Mobile Bay, in what we now know as Alabama in the United States of America.


They liked the country so much that one of the ships returned to Wales to collect more adventurers, and in 1170AD, ten small ships assembled off Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel, which flows between South Wales and Southern England.

On arrival in America, they sailed from Mobile Bay up the great river systems, settling initially in the Georgia//Tennessee/Kentucky area where they built stone forts. They warred with the local Indian tribe, the Cheyenne. When they decided to return down river in some time after 1186, they built big boats but they were ambushed trying to negotiate the falls on the Ohio River (where Louisville, Kentucky now stands). A fierce battle took place lasting several days. A truce was eventually called and, after an exchange of prisoners, it was agreed that MADOC and his followers would depart the area never to return.

They sailed down river to the Mississippi, which they sailed up until the junction with the Missouri, which they then followed upstream. They settled and integrated with a powerful tribe living on the banks of the Missouri called Mandans.


In 1781-82, the white man's gift, smallpox, reduced the Mandans, a tribe of 40,000 people, down to 2,000 survivors. They partially recovered, increasing their numbers to some 12,000 by 1837, when a similar epidemic almost wiped the tribe out completely. It is recorded that there were only 39 survivors but the Mandan-Hidatsa claim it was about 200. These bewildered survivors of a once mighty tribe were taken in by the Hidatsa who had also been affected by the disease but to a much lesser extent. View from Dolwyddelan Castle of MADOC's probable birth place (center of picture) It is this background which over the centuries has fuelled tales of a tribe of fair-haired Indians, living in round huts and using round, coracle-like boats - both of which were common in Wales but unheard of in America at the time. The tribe were also said to speak in a language similar to Welsh.


As we know many people including the Phonicians, St Brendan and the Vikings discovered North America before the Spanish in the 15th century. This story is fascinating and their is alot of evidence to back it up.



In 1666 the Rev Morgan Jones, a Welsh missionary in North America, was captured by an Indian tribe with fair features and was about to be killed. But he prayed loudly to God in Welsh for deliverance, and was suddenly spared, treated as an honoured guest and found he was able to converse freely in Welsh with the natives.

In 1739, a Frenchman, La Verendrye, encountered a tribe of Indians on the Upper Missouri 'Whose Fortifications are not characteristic of the Indians... Most of the women do not have Indian features... The tribe is mixed white and black. The women are fairly good looking, especially the light coloured ones; many have blonde or fair hair.' He called them Mantannes.

There were many other visitors to the so-called Welsh tribe; one of interest was a Maurice Griffith who was taken prisoner by the Shawnee Indians in 1764. The Indians eventually befriended him and took him on a hunting expedition to seek the source of the Missouri. High in the mountains they came across 'three white men in Indian dress' with whom they travelled for several days until they arrived at a village where there were others of the same tribe, all having the same European complexion.

A council of this white Indian tribe decided to put the strangers to death and Griffith decided it was time to speak. He addressed them in the Welsh language explaining that they had no hostile intentions but merely sought the source of the Missouri and that they would return to their own lands satisfied with their discoveries. The Chief of the Tribe greeted them in Welsh and they were thereafter treated as guests, staying with the nation some eight months. Griffiths eventually returned to Virginia but his story aroused little interest.


In October 1792, a French fur trader, Jacques d’Eglise, who had set off up the Missouri in August 1790, arrived back in St Louis. He had travelled over 800 leagues from St Louis up the river and had found a mighty and wealthy tribe of Indians, the Mandans. There had been earlier rumours of this remarkable tribe, but no one had ever reached them from St Louis. He said that they were 5,000 strong, living in eight, great fortified villages; they had the finest furs; they lived in sight of a volcano and alongside the Missouri, which at that point flowed from the west or north-west and could take the largest boats. d’Eglise reported that their fortified villages were like cities compared with other native settlements, they were much more civilised than other Indians and the final marvel, these Mandans 'are white like Europeans'. Here at last was confirmation of all those stories of civilised white Indians, which had been filtering back along the Missouri for years.

John Sevier, Governor of Tennessee, wrote to a Major Stoddard of the U.S. Army about a discussion he had had with the Major Chief of the Cherokee, Oconostota, in 1792. The venerable old chief informed him that, according to his forefathers, the white people who had formerly inhabited the country had made ancient fortifications on the Highwassee River now called Carolina. A battle took place between the Whites and the Cherokees at the Muscle Shoals on the Tennessee River. After a truce and exchange of prisoners, the Whites agreed to leave the area, never to return, eventually settling 'a great distance' up the Missouri.

The Chief's ancestors claimed 'they were a people called Welsh and they had crossed the Great Water'. Governor Sevier also claimed to have been in the company of a Frenchman who informed him that he had been high up the Missouri and 'he had traded with the Welsh tribe; that they certainly spoke much of the Welsh dialect, and though their customs were savage and wild, yet many of them, particularly the females, were very fair and white.'



I truely believe, like the Spanish themselves that they were not the first white men to set foot on north american soil and with evidence like this it is easy to see why.

[TheSilverKnight]

Interesting stuff...I only thought that it was the Vikings, and then the Spaniards who were the only Europeans who visited America, and perhaps earlier incursions by ancient civilisations.

Thanks for the interesting article ~:)

[Byzantine Prince]

I beleave the Greeks also visited North America. There are artifacts found that are of greek origin around the north eastern united states. I'm not saying they formed colonies but they sure as hell did trade with them.

[TheSilverKnight]

I beleave the Greeks also visited North America. There are artifacts found that are of greek origin around the north eastern united states. I'm not saying they formed colonies but they sure as hell did trade with them.

yeah, check in the post above. Greeks are included in 'ancient civilisations'. Did the Romans ever visit America too? ~:confused:

[GoreBag]

Have any artifacts been found? This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Observer after observer commented on the ‘whiteness’ of these Indians. It was this above all, which made them into a people of Myth. Many of them were, without doubt, fair of skin and hair. Their hair was often brown, sometimes red; it turned grey. The men had beards. Their eyes were sometimes blue. The neighbouring tribes, the Hidatsa, the Crows and the Arikara showed similar characteristics, but far less frequently.

History has presented some difficulties in verifying the legend. Although all important events in Welsh life were recorded in the monasteries and abbeys of Wales, most of the records would have been destroyed when Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries between 1537 and 1540 after falling out with the Church in Rome.

The other issue affecting the lack of evidence is that the Mandan Indians, like most such tribes, only have a verbal tradition of their history and that different families are keepers of different parts of the story. With the two smallpox epidemics wiping out large sections of the community with such extreme rapidity, much of their history has been lost.

With regard to the frequency of white physical characteristics, it must be remembered that the Welsh would have only numbered a few hundred amongst a tribe of tens of thousands. Supposedly about 300 men and women left Wales for the New World and if we assume that 200 survived the crossing and the various battles with the Indians, and they were absorbed into a tribe of some 40,000 Mandans, then the best guess is about 5% whites. Even if there were twice as many whites as previously suggested, then they would only number some 10% of the tribe. These would not have been spread evenly throughout the tribe but would have been concentrated in various families and villages.

It seems unlikely that the Mandans were ever a tribe of white Indians, although they had a small percentage of members showing certain European characteristics. The reality of a tribe of white Indians as encountered by the Cherokees probably applied to a group of no more than a few hundred people and is unlikely to have lasted more than a few decades.

Nevertheless, there does appear to be compelling evidence that a group of Welsh people went to America seeking peace, over three hundred years before Columbus, and they were eventually assimilated into a tribe of Indians on the Upper Missouri

The Mandans, and some of their neighbours, certainly lived in round, earth lodges not dissimilar to those found in Wales. They also used boats similar to the Welsh coracle, a peculiar little craft propelled in an even more peculiar fashion.

If we add to this the undoubted infusion of some Northern European blood resulting in some tribal members having fair skins, fair or red hair and blue, grey or green eyes, then the probability of there being an element of truth in the story must be enormous.

There are also the stories of some Mandans being able to understand the Welsh language and the various tales of the great battles on the falls on the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers. There is the evidence of the stone hill forts in Georgia and Tennessee and the finds of coins, armour and helmets in the region as well as numerous skeletons of non-indigenous peoples

[The Wizard]

Oh, come now. Very interesting story, but any believeability?

The will to even remotely believe in this story was lost for me when there was mention about Phoenicians and St. Brendan coming to America. Sure, the Vikings, but there is more than just very circumstantial evidence for their visit to America.

Come on! Phoenicians, some Papal saint figure coming to America. What's next, Atlantis? Yeah, once upon a time there was an island in the middle of the Atlantic, which has mysteriously dissapeared beneath the waves, and leaves no trace of a less deep seabed...

Just because there is some Punic story about a Hanno going to the southernmost tip of Africa (with biremes!) doesn't mean he did, let alone Phoenicians visiting America. And then some church fable? Sorry, but after that little sentence I had little reason to go on believing any of the 'evidence' provided afterwards...

Very interesting story, but total bullocks if you ask me. Doesn't transcend the level of fairy tale. Just like Phoenicians, Greeks, and some Christian in America.

At least the Vikings had ships that were capable of braving the open sea. Unlike all the others mentioned.



~Wiz

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
I thought it was Aztechs who first visited America. :end:

Seriously though, Wizard has valid points. This story sounds like yet another Celtic revivalisme fairy tale, like the Trojan-War-in-Cornwall fable.
-

[TheSilverKnight]

Great points Wiz

Even though I've never heard this before, it does sound a bit like a celtic revivalism story...time to do some research!! ~D

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

This story has been around for centuries and has nothing to do a Celtic revivial. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean its not true. Cortez himself said that there was no surprise in the faces of the mexican tribes he encountered and that "it was not the first timne they had seen a white man in the flesh"( A different part of America i know but his input has to be looked at with crediblity)

Four american scientists in the nineties travelled from the west coast of Ireland to the coast of North America(i think near New Foundland) in the same type and style of boat that St Brendan and his followers did. It at least proves that it was possible.

I think you are just totally dismissing a relevant theory. I metioned The Phonecians because there are stories of them reaching America that all, doesn't mean i directly believe in it.

If the will to believe in the story is too much its your opinion but i believe there is good evidence to suggest that the Spanish were not the first people to visit the shores of America and maybe some others, apart from the Vikings, did it also. Whats wrong with that theory?

[Brutus]

Don't know if it's true, but it doesn't sound entirely unbelievable. In het many hundreds of years before the Spanish (or the Vikings, for that matter), many peoples in the old world were able to build ships that would have been capable to navigate the ocean. Biremes are not useless when out of the Mediterrenean! (For example, Julius Ceasar used ships just like those to battle against the Veneti in Armorica and to sail to Britain). There are many stories of people sailing away into the west, never to be heard of again. Surely, probably many of them just perished in some storm or so, but it seems highly unlikely to me none of them ever reached the Americas.

The Aztecs are a nice exemple as well. The god Quetzalcoatl, who was said to be of a white complexion and have a large beard, was thought to have learned the Aztecs (who only became an important people in the fourteenth century) how to build houses and to grow crops, as well as telling them about one God, more mighty then all other, who had a message of love and redemption for all. Quetzalcoatl was said to have come from the east over the sea, and had left in the same direction after a few years (promising to return, which led some Aztecs to believe later Cortez and his men were Quetzalcoatl returned). This description makes it very likely Quetzalcoatl was actually a christian missionary who (accidentally) reached Mexico. I'm not saying it's true, but it doesn't seem impossible to me.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

For me to have such a huge landmass and with adventerous and oppurtunistic people through the ages with many being great seamen, i can't see why explorers didn't reach the Americas before the Spanish and maybe even before the Vikings. It is not impossible and perhaps we will never know. But a bit of mystery never hurt anyone ~D

[TheSilverKnight]

This story has been around for centuries and has nothing to do a Celtic revivial. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean its not true.

I wasn't saying I didn't believe it. It's just some points seem slightly unbelievable. But it's still a very interesting article of information ~:)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I wasn't refering to your post Silver Knight mainly Wizards one ~D

[Gregoshi]

There are a few places here in the States that seems to defy explanation based on known and accepted history. I saw some shows on the History Channel/Discovery Channel on some of these several years ago but my memory of them is vague. I do recall the burial mounds and other earthen structures in Ohio (Miamisburg Mound (http://www.ohiohistory.org/places/miamisbg/)) which seem out of place with the indian cultures we think of that inhabited North America. There was also a place in New England with some unusual man-made stone structures that I recall some thought were celtic in nature. In googling for this place, I found this interesting article: the Newport Tower (http://www.neara.org/CARLSON/newporttower.htm) Oddly, places like the burial mounds and the Newport Tower seem, at least to me, little known outside the local area - which is a shame.

My point is that there are still things unknown here in North America - enough to fuel some of that mystery that The Blind King of Bohemia mentioned.

[Shambles]

"Come on! Phoenicians, some Papal saint figure coming to America. What's next, Atlantis? Yeah, once upon a time there was an island in the middle of the Atlantic, which has mysteriously dissapeared beneath the waves, and leaves no trace of a less deep seabed..."

You do know they have found a huge city off the shores of india much older than the egyptian, cityes,
Some beleve this to be the city of atlantis.

I hadnt actualy ever heard some 1 say it was in the middle of the atlantic,

Lots of citys disapear beneath the waves,
Not unbeleveable Some of the myths that go with it are though,

But its the same as a old house said to be haunted,
just becous it isnt haunted dosent mean the house does not exist,

I can easily beleve some 1 sailed some where and we have no real records of it,

after all the romans had central heating,
yet when they left every 1 forgot about it for like a thousand years,

Monks invented an areo plane, But when he fell from a great hight with it and broke some bones,
The head monk told him he could not try again,

The monk said he knew what was wrong and he just needed a tail.

But airoplanes wernt drempt of for a nother 200 years after that,

Theres a lot we dont remember about the past,
I wouldnt write it off, There are some intrecate gold chains and stuff dating back nearly thousands of years, that people today cannot copy due to how intrecate they are and that they are made from 97% pure gold,

History is sometihing we should try and learn from,
And you cant just write it off,

So keep an open mind,

After all how can you know where your going,
if you dont know where youve been.

ShambleS
:bow:

[The_Doctor]

Didn't some people find "gaint" blonde-haired mummies in south America?

[The Wizard]

Don't know if it's true, but it doesn't sound entirely unbelievable. In het many hundreds of years before the Spanish (or the Vikings, for that matter), many peoples in the old world were able to build ships that would have been capable to navigate the ocean. Biremes are not useless when out of the Mediterrenean! (For example, Julius Ceasar used ships just like those to battle against the Veneti in Armorica and to sail to Britain). There are many stories of people sailing away into the west, never to be heard of again. Surely, probably many of them just perished in some storm or so, but it seems highly unlikely to me none of them ever reached the Americas.

The Aztecs are a nice exemple as well. The god Quetzalcoatl, who was said to be of a white complexion and have a large beard, was thought to have learned the Aztecs (who only became an important people in the fourteenth century) how to build houses and to grow crops, as well as telling them about one God, more mighty then all other, who had a message of love and redemption for all. Quetzalcoatl was said to have come from the east over the sea, and had left in the same direction after a few years (promising to return, which led some Aztecs to believe later Cortez and his men were Quetzalcoatl returned). This description makes it very likely Quetzalcoatl was actually a christian missionary who (accidentally) reached Mexico. I'm not saying it's true, but it doesn't seem impossible to me.

You totally bypass the fact that ancient ships did not have a movement radius anywhere near that of the caravels that brought Columbus to America, and did not have the same sea-traversing capabilities of the drakkar and its variations. The drakkar, too, had a greater range.

Ancient ships, especially warships such as biremes, triremes etc., sailed along the coast, having to stop at almost every port along the way to ensure the fact that the crew could operate well and sail the ship. Also, the ships were long and narrow, which meant they were unable to brave the open sea, because storms or even a powerful swell could snap them in two like a twig.

Because of that, the bireme and its variations couldn't have been used by any ancient explorer in his right mind. It is well known that the great Carian explorer, Scylax, in service of Darius the Great, used a small trading vessel to traverse the waters of the Caspian Sea, and the Indian Ocean. Besides, ancient armies were transported across the sea in confiscated trading vessels because warships of the day couldn't carry large amounts of men, food, etcetera.

But even such ships could not have hoped to brave the very treacherous waters of the Northern Atlantic. Ancient trading vessels were of a shallow draught, made to stop at many ports to trade and therefore not needing the deep draught of an ocean plier. Compare that to a 15th/16th century caravel, which had an even deeper draught than the already deep-sailing cog (just take a look at ship designs for cogs -- the bow and stern look almost useless additions to the ship's form, as if pasted onto it), but where the stern was enlarged, and the prow became more prominent.

The only way for Phoenicians to even have passed the modern Moroccan coast halfway was to have many friendly ports there where they could restock their supplies without having their crews threatened by curious inlanders. That factor perhaps places Hanno's expedition's end somewhere on the Liberian coast, and maybe, just very very maybe on the Nigerian coast at the very extreme. Cape of Good Hope? Yep, just like Heracles...

And a people expecting a Savior-like figure coming from the East, where the sun rises and thus life is reborn, in one of their myths is only logical. Why do you think the name Visigoths means 'brave Goths' and not 'Western Goths'? That's right -- because no superstitious, ancient people like the Goths would have chosen the direction where the sun goes down, where life ends, as their namesake.

Now, BKB, you make an interesting point on '90s scientists crossing from Ireland (somewhat shorter distance, but okay) to Newfoundland in the same boat as St. Brendan, supposedly. Could you please tell me how they believed these ships looked like? Because I wouldn't think a Christian story would go to great lengths to describe the shape, draught, etc. of the ships of the hero...

Mainly answering to Shambles, but to all people as well, please provide arguments that at least provide more than vague points for me to consider... I mean, Aztec myths, the knowledge that some monk jumped off a building and chains of nearly pure gold do not help the case of turning me into a believer of this story...



~Wiz

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Well the first trip was made in 1976, Tim Severin, a British navigation scholar, embarked from Brandon Creek on the Dingle peninsula in a carrach that he constructed using the details described by Brendan. His goal was to determine if the voyage of Brendan and his fellow monks was possible. They tanned ox-hides with oak bark, stretched them across the wood frame, sewed them with leather thread and smeared the hides with animal fat which would impart water resistance. Examination of nautical charts led Severin to believe that Brendan's route would be governed by the prevailing winds that would take him across the northernmost part of the Atlantic. This would take him close to Iceland and Greenland with a probable landfall at Newfoundland (St. Brendan's Isle). This would be the route that Leif Erickson would have taken in the tenth century. Many of Brendan's stops on his journey were islands where Irish monks had set up primitive monasteries.

After stopping at the Hebrides islands Severin proceeded to the Danish Faroe Islands. At the island of Mykines, they encountered thousands of seabirds. Brendan called this island "The Paradise of Birds. "He referred to the larger island as the "Island of Sheep." The word Faroe itself means Island of Sheep. There is also a Brandon Creek on the main island of the Faroes, that the local people believe was the embarkation point for Brendan and his crew.

Severin's route carried them to Iceland where they wintered, as did Brendan. The volcanoes on the island have been active for many centuries and might well have been erupting when the monks stayed there. This could have accounted for the "pelting with flaming, foul smelling rocks", referred to in the ninth century text. The monks had never seen icebergs before, so their description of them as "towering crystals" would make sense.

Severin's boat was punctured by floating ice off the coast of Canada. They were able make a repair with a piece of leather sewn over the hole. They landed on the island of Newfoundland on June 26, 1977. This might well have been Brendan's "Land promised to the Saints" referred to in the Navigatio.

Severin's journey did not prove that Brendan and his monks landed on North America. However it did prove that a leather currach as described in the Navigatio could have made such a voyage as mapped out in the text. There is also no doubt that the Irish were frequent seafarers of the North Atlantic sea currents 900 years before the voyage of Columbus.

More conclusive evidence of Irish exploration of North America has come to the fore in West Virginia. There, stone carvings have been discovered that have been dated between 500 and 1000 A.D. Analysis by archaeologist Dr. Robert Pyle and a leading language expert Dr. Barry Fell indicate that they are written in Old Irish using the Ogham alphabet. According to Dr. Fell, "the West Virginia Ogham texts are the oldest Ogham inscriptions from anywhere in the world. They exhibit the grammar and vocabulary of Old Irish in a manner previously unknown in such early rock-cut inscriptions in any Celtic language." Dr. Fell goes on to speculate that, "It seems possible that the scribes that cut the West Virginia inscriptions may have been Irish missionaries in the wake of Brendan's voyage, for these inscriptions are Christian. The early Christian symbols of piety, such as the various Chi-Rho monograms (Name of Christ) and the Dextra Dei (Right Hand of God) appear at the sites together with the Ogham texts."

The lack of any written account of this exploration could be explained by the explorers not being able to return to their homeland. If they indeed did reach what is now West Virginia, it would be extremely doubtful that they could manage to return to Ireland from a embarkation point that far south. The design of their currach required favorable winds and currents in the right direction in order to navigate. Severin discovered that it was extremely difficult to tack as other sailing ships were able to do. Perhaps that is the reason that it took Brendan seven years for his journey.

[The Wizard]

Seven years? Explains why he could do it, in a currach too...

I mean, the only reason the Vikings ever reached America was because they were able to make use of friendly ports in areas which had been colonized by their people, and the movement itself was only a continuation of the Norse westward movement which had been going on for some five-six generations by the time of Leif Ericksson...

But that explanation of yours does make me a lot less sceptical of the tale of St. Brendan. He used harbors and ports on inhabited islands (his voyage took place in the 10th century, I understand ...?) such as the Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland etc., and took a very long time doing the voyage (the way back probably included in those seven years).

And is it reasonable for me to assume that the wind used by St. Brendan, at least according to this scientist, is much like the monsoons of the western Indian Ocean, only then lacking the change in direction? That would certainly be a very plausible way for travel over the extreme north of the Atlantic to America with ships like currachs (comparable to dhows in their seaworthiness, I guess). Still, it is strange, with that (possible) knowledge, for St. Brendan to have taken seven years for his journey.

But then for this Madoc to have landed so far south, then gone back to get some adventurers, is still an impossibility to me. I mean, there are people with blue eyes and Caucasian features on Hokkaido more often than just genetic accidents, but no-one's saying any Europeans sailed over there...



~Wiz

[Brutus]

The Wizard, your knowledge of ships and shipping totally outclasses mine and therefore I will readily assume what you've said. However, my comment wasn't they could only have used a bireme or something similar, that's was just an (apparently wrong) example. Apart from that, there are signs enough that there have been non-indiginous peoples in the america's well before Columbus or the Vikings. Apart from the examples given here by other people, several large stone heads, produced by the Olmecs, have been found on the Yucatan which have features that look strangely similar to africans or europeans. In respect to the story of Quetzalcoatl, sure him coming from the east makes sense in the way you put it. However, what is your explanation on his appearance and the things he alledgedly learned the Aztecs?

Anyway, if the original peoples of East-Asia and Australia were able to reach all the islands in the region by boat, I don't see any reason why no-one in the European region (including North-Africa and the Middle-East) could have been able to reach the America's by boat before Columbus or the Vikings, who did it by "island-hopping". I don't say it has indeed happened, but I think it surely is possible.

[The Wizard]

Well, I must admit I have no explanation readily available for the European/African features. Although I have seen one of those Olmec heads, and a Maya copy(?) of it at Copán, and I must say at the time (I was 11) I thought it was an artistic impression.

The thing about Quetzalcoatl (damn them Aztecs for their naming of gods ~;p) learning the Aztecs all kinds of things would seem to me to be another myth for the origins of their own people. Compare it to their belief that they found the lake upon which Tenochtitlan was, after a long nomadic trek, when an eagle devoured a snake on a cactus.

Now, my personal belief on why the Micronesian peoples were able to get so far on their boats is for two reasons.

One; you're Dutch, and therefore I'll explain it in this way. There's a reason why we call the Pacific Ocean Stille Zuidzee. It's a calm, almost stormless sea where the only great dangers are the tsunamis caused by landslides, seaquakes and volanic eruptions. Meanwhile, the North Atlantic is a rough, dangerous, unaccountable for body of water which is known to have some of the roughest seas in the world, along with our own Mare Frisium, or the North Sea.

Two; those ships they were travelling on were extremely well-adapted to their nautical environment. I've sailed on modern catamarans (the racing breed), and it is extremely surprising how much that second hull stabilizes the canoo-like construction of the hull which is used itself. Now, I don't think the catamarans used by the people of the Pacific would have been used in such an extreme way (going some 10-15 knots with the support hull clear out of the water), but they certainly were some surprisingly resilient and useful ships. Added to the fact that in those Pacific migrations, the islands they came to were uninhabited, and there was almost always one just across the horizon. Still, an amazing achievement, that migration.



~Wiz

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I just thought I'd point out that this legend is indeed very old.
John Dee (a very influential man of Welsh descent) in the 16th century coined the phrase "British Empire" (as before this all that Briton meant was a Welsh, Cornish or Breton person) which justified the claims of a reconstituted Britannia (as England had once been Welsh) to the legendary conquests of King Arthur on the European mainland as well as the claims of Madoc to north America. The Mdaoc legend therefor pre-dated the 16th century but I think John Dee really took it and ran with it.

Gwyn Alf Williams actually wrote a book on this. G.A. Williams being a very well regarded professor of Welsh History, even if he was slightly of the Marxist school of history.

[streety]

Hi, and thanks to the Blind King of Bohemia for posting the interesting story of Prince Madoc and the finding of America. I'm an archaeological scientist with both North American and European experience, and a long interest in history. I've read about Madoc before and, based on what little I've been able to fathom, the story has not been shown (at least yet) to be false.

In recent years, much has been delved into on the notion of the Eurpoean exploration/finding of America, and some scholars have even suggested that prehistoric eskimos or their like had manage to navigate coastal waters of an ice-locked shoreline that may have developed in the North Atlantic during the last Ice Age. They even go as far as to suggest that some or many eastern American Indian tribes were descended from these prehistoric explorers, rather than coming solely from Asia, as the standard model gives it. This would explain some unusual European-like stone age artifacts and (disputed) dating that (at around 14000yrs) would be too awkwardly early for people to have crossed from the west (roughly 13000yrs ago). This may explain some of the European-like traits seen in eastern American Indian tribes by some 17th-18th century explorers, rather than being due to Madoc. But all these notions are, though possible, unproven.

However, up until recently, the Vikings' Vinland Sagas (wherein they related their wonderful tale of going to North America - please read it!) were thought, like the story of Madoc, to be the stuff of fairy tales, but we now have physical evidence of at least one Viking settlement in Canada, at L'Anse aux Meadows, as well as, of course, three towns and 450 farms in Western Greenland (yes, Western - the side closest to Canada), which was settled in the 11th Century.

This is important, because the viking sagas also mention that they encountered Welsh or Irish monks on their travels, which serves no purpose to embelishing the sagas (such as boldy going where no man went before etc), nor does it help in claiming new territories. We know that there were seafaring monks in the North Atlantic by this time, and that at least the Irish were recognised as excellent boat builders by the vikings. Indeed, the sagas suggest that when they set off west for Vinland, as previously with Iceland, that they'd already been told of these places by those same monks.

And we know that by the 14th Century, long before Columbus, the North Atlantic was already a busy place, with long-established shipping and fishing routes between Scandinavia, the British Isles, Iceland and Greenland (and yes, at least one village in Canada!), before the 300yr-old Greenland community collapsed, succumbing to worsening climatic conditions. All the history of which leads us to consider that Madoc's earlier journey now at least seems less fantastical, even if we still have no proof, and certainly, America itself (at least, that is, the east coast of Canada) was no secret to the later North Atlantic wayfarers of the 11th-14th centuries.

After the "Little Ice Age" finished off the Greenland community, and generally worsened conditions for any northern trans-atlantic travel, "the knowledge" was not entirely lost, and by the 1470s at the latest, there are records of Bristol fishing ships travelling back to those old haunts and their known rich cod-fishing grounds off of what we now call Cape Cod. In 1496, John Cabot (Giovanni Cabotti, a Genoese merchant sailor who settled in Bristol, England), sailed from Bristol to find, circumnavigate, map and name Newfoundland. He was therefore yet another man to officially reach the North American mainland before Columbus (remember, in 1492, Columbus actually found Cuba, and even then, and for year afterwards, was convinced it was an outlying island of India - hence the term the West Indies). Anyway, Cabot's journey is important for another reason. He sailed from Bristol, the fishing community of which, along with a few shipping communities from Ireland, had long retained their old commercial "secret" of the abundant fishing grounds off of Cape Cod (in Massachussetts) and safe-harbours visited to the north. Clearly, these sailors had retained the knowledge of their earlier generations' explorations. Cabot soon got wind of this and applied to the Sheriff of Bristol, Richard Americk, for funds to explore, map and name these lands for the British crown and get Bristol officially established there first. Yes, Americk, twice Sheriff of Bristol, is the man whose surname gives us the name America. Unfortunately, nobody in America cares to learn about him, and the "mystery" as to the origin of the name "America" goes on. Americk, by the way, is a rare name, and came about because he was Welsh, born as Rhys ap Meyrick, in Monmouth, but Anglicised his name to Richard Americk when he moved to Bristol. Americk funded Cabot's journeys. To Americk, Prince Madoc may have been a proud historical Welsh fact rather than a modern fantasy. And Cabot's Bristol-born son, Sebastian Cabot, continued the work. Between 1500 and 1507 Sebastian Cabot was the first to navigate and accurately chart the entire coastline of Brazil.

So there you go, the North Atlantic was a pretty busy place before Columbus. By the way, Brutus, the notion about Quetzalcoatl bringing farming and housing to Mexico is misplaced. Growing crops in Mexico was established at least a thousand years before his time, as was housing etc. However, I do have one last interesting point to raise, regarding traces of the Welsh in America. An archaeologist friend of mine was working with a Blackfoot group in Canada, a couple of decades ago (long before she or I had ever heard of Madoc), cataloging and restoring tribal relics at the Glenbow Museum. She was told by an elder, in response to some quandary over conflicting ancestor descriptions given in transcriptions of taped oral histories, that traditonally, the founding father of their particular tribe was described, in the tradition passed down to him, as a white-faced man, but that during the conflicts with white settlers in the 19th century, this had become a problematic issue. And he said that certainly, by the mid twentieth century, this description had become disputed within the tribe or at least politically incorrect for many younger tribal members keen to assert their rights as first nation Americans. And that nowadays, this father spirit is depicted as an American-Indian looking man.

Anyway, I've waffled on for too long. Thanks for reading if you got this far! :dizzy2:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

many thanks for adding to my previous knowledge of the subject.

I'm glad to see that it's not just me who knows of the Ap Meurig theory.

[streety]

You're welcome taffy-is-a-taff! ~:)
Say, would you be Welsh by any chance? :bow:
Anyway, for everyone else, yes, in Ap Meurig, ap Meyrick, ap Meryk, Americk, and Ameryk (which is how Bristol Council lists him), me and taff are referring to the same man. We Brits never tried fixing down our spelling until Victorian times. Anyway, though he was indeed Sherrif or Mayor twice, I've just read that in 1497 he was apparently still "Collector of Customs of the Port of Bristol". He was still a chief sponsor of the Cabots though, and possibly one of the foundering members of The Society of Merchant Venturers of the City of Bristol.

Anyway, taffy-is-a-taff, how are you on 16th-17th century Welsh names and places/history? I ask because cegorach and myself have been discussing some names to use for his Mod and the input of one of the natives might be of use. And please also check out my comments regards the Pike and Musket RTW map for Britain, and reply a post to me in that thread if you've a better idea (I had wondered whether to suggest Harlech or Machynlleth instead of Pembroke). See you there, or anywhere. ~:cheers:

[streety]

By the way, using "foundering" is one of my little play-on-words jokes, though perhaps not the best :embarassed:

[Sigurd]

Americk, twice Sheriff of Bristol, is the man whose surname gives us the name America. Unfortunately, nobody in America cares to learn about him, and the "mystery" as to the origin of the name "America" goes on. Americk, by the way, is a rare name, and came about because he was Welsh, born as Rhys ap Meyrick, in Monmouth, but Anglicised his name to Richard Americk when he moved to Bristol
I always thought that the name America came from Amerigo Vespucci or rather the latinized version: Americus Vespucius.
In its feminine form America steps into the tradition of naming continents in the feminine form.
It was first used by the German cartographer, Martin Waldseemüller on his globe and large map of 1507.

[streety]

Hi Sigurd,

Yes, I'm aware of Amerigo Vespucci. To most of the World (except for people in Bristol and in Wales), his name is the most commonly trotted out as a possible explanation for naming America, though experts don't give it much credence. Some have in the past wondered why then this new continent wasn't called Vespuccia, and more recent academic efforts to verify his alleged earliest voyages have shown they never actually happened (i.e. he made up fanciful stories), though he did go later, a few years after Cabot. Undoubtedly, Waldseemuller (the leading mapmaker of his day) and the Cabots (leading navigators and chartmakers - don't forget Sebastian mapping the Brazilian coastline by 1507) would have been in close communication on efforts of this kind, particularly as Waldseemuller produced his new world map in 1507. And Waldseemuller would have been more insterested in serious Cabot charts rather than fanciful tales, or even of Columbus' belief that he'd found the West Indies - Columbus too never accepted that there was another continent in the way of his precious spice route to the indies until after Cabot's initial charting. Finally, Ameryk was a chief financier of the Cabot expeditions, journeys which not only reached the American mainland before Columbus or Vespucci, but were serious sea-chart, mapmaking (and yes, place-naming) expeditions.

[Steppe Merc]

This is quite interesting. And there are some interesting facts about the American Indians that still haven't been discovered, (or that are in the oral traditions, and haven't been proven). This is the first I've heard of this particular story, but it is quite interesting. I don't know anything about the ships of the time, so can't comment on that. But I don't find it hard to believe that tribes were here before they are commonly thought to have arrived, or that new groups of peoples came to America earlier than is commonly thought.

[Tribesman]

Isn't there evidence that suggests the Welsh were also in Iceland ?
If the vikings can make it to Iceland then Greenland then America why could the Welsh not have done the same ?
Also , as for the St. Brendan story , Columbus visited the City of the Tribes prior to his journey to the West , it is said that his interest was in the tale of Brendan the Navigator .

Slightly off topic ,but didn't the Jews make it to America and leave something there for the Mormons to find in later years ~;)

[streety]

For those who aren't familiar with the moniker, "the City of Tribes", that Tribesman refers to, is a nickname of Galway City in the west of Ireland. Yes, its said Columbus went there, and he could well have, for Galway certainly had links with Spain. But the tale of St Brendan the Navigator would have long been popular around Europe for hundreds of years anyway - being written in the 10th or 11th century, about a traveller called St Brendan in the 7th century (though it was possibly a collation of several different travelling monks' accounts). So, Columbus' visit to Galway wasn't necessary, and could be be just one of those mythic inventions, but then he got around a bit, and could have gone to Galway for any number of other work reasons, so who knows....

The Vikings (on arriving in the 870s) found hermit monks and Irish books, so the assumption's been that they were Irish monks, but with the acceptance that they could just have been Welsh. There's no other records of the Welsh going to Iceland at this time that I know of, but perhaps they did. Is Madoc supposed to have gone there? Not sure what this Jews/America/Mormons thing is that you mention - could you spell it out for me - I'm probably on the wrong track. :dizzy2:

For those interested in the Richard Ameryk, maps, and the naming of America, there's a good link with several further links of its own here:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/R/Ri/Richard_Amerike.htm
Enjoy,
Streety :book:

[Tribesman]

Streety ; ~;)
Not sure what this Jews/America/Mormons thing is that you mention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

[streety]

Cheers Tribesman - thats an excellent link debating the Mormon stuff. Gee, I didn't realise that it was such a big topic :surprised:

Back to my earlier comments: Brutus - I may have to retract my statement that housing and crop growing were around for at least a thousand years before Quetzalcoatl if you are refering to the deity rather than one of the later rulers of the same name.

Anyway, regarding Amerigo Vespucci having made it all up (some academics nowadays consider that he never went anywhere at all!), heres a good link:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Amerigo-Vespucci
And for the Vikings in L'Anse Aux Meadows, there are several sites, but try:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/women_04.shtml
And for yet more on Ameryk, Cabot and the naming of America, another five page-long BBC History effort has been made:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/discovery/exploration/americaname_01.shtml
:book:

Adios
~:cheers:

[RickOsmon]

I just completed a book about Madoc et al, entitled Graves of the Golden Bear; Ancient Monuments and Fortresses of the Ohio Valley.

It will be on Amazon Kindle, Barnes & Noble, and Smashwords by October 15th.

One hint: The 1170 date is a different Madoc /Madog/Maddaug than the one in America. He was much earlier.

Streety, if you're still around, have you ever read Alan Wilson's take on the chronicles?

[gaelic cowboy]

some Papal saint figure coming to America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2EsZhzVtE It can be and has been done my good man

[Rhyfelwyr]

Interesting thread. I always thought that the stories about the Welsh and Irish in America were myths, although the same was said for the Vikings not that long ago.

I've also heard claims that Africans may have reached the Americas prior to Columbus, if not the Vikings. Such are the things you learn when you get bored and travel through Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact#Africans):

Proposed claims for an African presence in Mesoamerica rest on attributes of the Olmec culture, the presence of an African plant species in the Americas, and interpretations of certain European and Arabic historical accounts.

The Olmec culture existed from roughly 1200 BCE to 400 BCE. The idea that the Olmecs are related to Africans was suggested by José Melgar, who discovered the first colossal head at Hueyapan (now Tres Zapotes) in 1862.[66] More recently, Ivan van Sertima has argued that these statues depict settlers or explorers from Africa, but his views have been the target of severe scholarly criticism.[67]

North African sources describe what some consider to be visits to the New World by a Mali fleet in 1311.[68] According to these sources, 400 ships from the Mali Empire discovered a land across the ocean to the West after being swept off course by ocean currents. Only one ship returned, and the captain reported the discovery of a western current to Prince Abubakari II; the off-course Mali fleet of 400 ships is said to have conducted both trade and warfare with the peoples of the western lands. It is claimed that Abubakari II abdicated his throne and set off to explore these western lands. In 1324, the Mali king Mansa Musa is said to have told the Arabic historian, Al-Umari that "his predecessors had launched two expeditions from West Africa to discover the limits of the Atlantic Ocean."

According to the abstract of Columbus' log made by Bartolomé de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus’ third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that “canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise” as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of Hispaniola that “from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín...from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper.”


Also, we always talk about Europeans discovering America, but let's not forget the Americans who discovered Europe (or at least, Europeans). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact#Trans-oceanic_travel_from_the_New_World)