Newbie needs advice

[UncleLou]

Hi,

I just picked up Shogun after I played a Demo and i have to say this game really shines. It builds up an incredible atmosphere, and the overall design is among the best in any game I have ever seen.

I successfully played the campaign on easy, and now I am trying it on normal. In the battles, this seems to be the right difficulty for me, but on the strategic map? I started several times with the green clan (can`t remember the name) and am getting rid of light blue very soon. But after a while, I am always completely overrun by the Hojo, and even if I win the first few battles, they seem to have infinite reinforcements. I read somewhere about the "Hojo Horde Bug". Is this what is meant by that? And is it really a bug? I am really getting a bit frustrated now.

Thanks for your time, Uncle Lou

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CD-Recommendation:
Miles Davis the complete live at the plugged nickel 1965

[This message has been edited by UncleLou (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Shadelord]

yep thats what it is now once you get done playing with the AI just step into the online game that is were you will find your never ending battle to be a great player http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

Clan Shades Website
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)

[TooCool]

First: have you patch your game?

Second: after how many years do you meet the hojo? you have better to be fast to avoid the "hojo horde".

Third: Very great enemy armies is not a real problem because you will always fight against 16 units (even if the enemy have more) so, encircle the province with horde and attack! If you win the battle, all the horde will be destroyed.

[The Scourge]

Thats if they don't get you first.But Too Cool is right.Aggresion is the key,just go right at em.

[Jackson]

"Green" clan? I think you are actually the Black clan; Takeda (sp?). The green clan Shimazu (sp?) does not border Hojo. If this is one of your first campaigns, I would highly recommend against taking a clan located in the middle of the map. Try Mori, Shimazu or Hojo first.

Also, as the others have stated, do not wait to buildup your army before attacking your weakest neighbors. You need to take land ASAP. Then, once you’ve secured your borders, you can take a breather and buildup a few armies. Use Ronin provinces as a buffer.

[theforce]

No he is the green clan and he manages to take the 2 provinces of the imagawa clan. Make Hojo attack you in high provinces . The usually try frontal attacks. Also try getting their daimyo. There are ninjas and geishas. 1 is more powerful than a 10000 men amry http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://www.darksideshogunclan.cjb.net
Enter the Darkside...

[Shiro]

Welcome to the Dojo UncleLou!

[UncleLou]

Wow, that`s what I would call a nice community. Thanks for the advice guys, i`ll try it out. Theforce is right, I actually play the Shimazu clan at the moment. Right now, the Hojo have about 16.000 men in one province at my border, making me a bit nervous, but I`ll try my best.
Gotta show this game to my girl-friend, she studies Japanese.

You live in NYC, shiro? I love that place.

UncleLou


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CD-Recommendation:
Miles Davis the complete live at the plugged nickel 1965

[Kokueater]

If the Hojo Horde invades one of your provinces, don't worry, they deploy only 16 units on the battlefield. Try to kill the Taisho and they wont receive reinforcements that turn anymore, and retrait the whole horde... if you win the battle of course.
Probably they will visit you again very soon, so you need a very good quality troop production. Aniway, Hojo Horde is a little bit annoying!

[ShaiHulud]

Koku...You are mistaken. Killing the Taisho does NOT end reinforcements, it merely affects their overall morale. They still arrive if they have time.
Uncle Lou... Btw, there is an excellent recent post on strategy for Shimazu. I've tried it and it has great possibilities!

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Shiro]

UncleLou-
Sure do. I wouldn't be any other place in the world. NYC is the best.

[Devil's Advocate]

Hey keep this advice coming!

What does everyone mean about the "16 units"? If Hojo say has 16000 men won't they all be deployed?

[ShaiHulud]

No, A max of 16 units is an army. If multiple armies enter a battle, reinforcements may come in if a unit is withdrawn or routed off the map.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Plant_head]

For my 2 pennies worth.

I tend to always get stuck in the situation where the Hojo are attacking me and replacing their losses faster than I can.

However I just concentrate on killing their Daimyo. HE is always in command of an army on my borders.
Muster your biggest army and attack him. Try to win the battle but more important is to kill the Daimyo (and then if he has any, his heirs)

With him gone the enemy turns into Ronin and is easily dealt with.


Not the most honorable way to do it I admit but it has worked everytime for me so far.


[This message has been edited by Plant_head (edited 01-18-2001).]

[TooCool]

It may be a good idea to kill the Daimyo but if the enemy army is losing a battle and its general is not the daimyo (or an heir), i will let him alive because he will lose honor and will give malus to the units.

[BanzaiZAP]

TooCool is right - if you're winning, let the general escape and he will actually spread his disgrace like you spread your honor! Only kill the taisho if you're still trying to rout his men, or if it's a high level taisho already.

If you are attacked with 16000 men, yes, most of that army will be waiting as reinforcements, since you only get 16 units at a time. However, if you make his entire army rout at once, then it will prevent those reinforcements from showing up! Normally, you only have a few units leaving the battle at a time, so the reinf. have a chance to appear on the battlemap, and walk over to the fight. However, if there is a wave of fleeing troops, then those reinf. will A) get scared back off the battlemap, and B) the battle ends BEFORE the next reinf. have a chance to appear! So you can rout 1200 men, which then prevents the other 15000 from even showing up!

Note that this ONLY works if you command the fight yourself! It works well in either defense or attacking, but if you autoresolve, it will kick your butt from sheer numbers. The tricky part is: you want his whole army routing at once! If only a few rout, he will get more as reinforcements. Likewise, if you completely kill a unit off, he gets a new unit as reinforcements. You need to break a flank, ideally having them run through the rest of his army to break their morale. This then cascades his whole army into fleeing, then you MUST keep chasing him off the field, so he can not Rally his men. If he does, then you need to break the whole army again, plus any reinf. he may have gotten. Timing is critical. Practice in Custom Battles, or with the early-game tiny armies.

Be careful - it is easy to be chasing him off screen, and have him rally, so he gets some fresh reinf, while you are exhausted, and on the wrong side of the battlemap! He then gives back to you, what you were trying yourself!

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 01-18-2001).]

[UncleLou]

BanzaiZap: you are completely right, but it`s easier said than done
But the next probem is what Plant_Head said, that even if you chase his 16.000 away, he is still building armies up faster than me (and already has got much more anyway). So even if this works a few times, in the end I am just overrun by his constant flow of new armies.
Anyhow, I started a new campaign and I am much faster now (using the advice "aggression is the key". It is about 1540 now and I am crushing red, but haven`t met Hojo yet, I am only getting this annoying messages how great Hojo is bla bla bla... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

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CD-Recommendation:
Miles Davis the complete live at the plugged nickel 1965

[This message has been edited by UncleLou (edited 01-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by UncleLou (edited 01-19-2001).]

[BanzaiZAP]

Definitely easier said than done!

As far as I can tell, the only sure-fire way to not have a problem with the Hojo Hordes, is to play as Hojo. I think one of the reasons it's a consisten problem is that Hojo has one of the best clan-bonuses. Cheap castles speeds up everything else! But that's another thread.....

-- B)

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Just so that you know, Lou-san:

The Shimazu start the farthest away from the Hôjô. Thus, they're the clan that often has the most problems with them, as the Hôjô have a lot of time to annex the other computer players in their vincinity before the Shimazu can get there. If you get fed up with the Horde, try playing another clan that's closer to the Hôjô holdings: the problem diminishes as you move further to the East. As Takeda or Uesugi, you're practically forced to take the Hôjô out before they can gain those massive armies - you may get a Shimazu Horde though, but it's not as bad. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, / With the very bluest stockings, / On the ground the haft set firmly, / On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, / Turned the point against his bosom, / And upon the point he threw him, / Thus he found the death he sought for, / Cast himself into destruction."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 335-342

[Devil's Advocate]

Anssi but doesn't this create a horde elsewhere because of the computer cheat? I once came up against an Oda horde and that was a big kick in the guts after expecting Hojo to be there!

[Puzz3D]

You can reduce the ai clan's training capability with the Shinobi horde. It's pretty tedious, but constant revolts and ai counterattacks destroys buildings and draws ai troops away from the frontline provinces. I'm not sure you can defeat the Hojo horde this way, but I was able to defeat a Mori horde on expert doing this.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[TooCool]

About the reinforcement of enemy:
I use an unit of musket with 2 units of HTH to guard the side of the map where the enemy reinforcement come from. So i can root his reinforcement as soon as they enter in the map. This is not difficult to do because if reinforcement come, it's because the enemy is already losing and rooting.

[Kokueater]

TooCool:
Maybe a silly question, what kind of unit is HTH?

ShaiHulud: Right, killing taisho doesn't guarantee new reinforcement arrival, just push routed enemy out very quickly

[BanzaiZAP]

Kokueater:
Not a silly question at all. These Net Heads use too many abbreviations. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

HTH = Hand to Hand. This includes yari, monks, no-dachi, ashigaru... anything that's not a missile unit (archers/muskets) or cavalry. It's also often abbreviated as H2H.

Whenever you leave missile units (especially muskets) out away from the main army, you MUST give them some HTH support, otherwise the enemy will rip them to pieces.

-- B)

[solypsist]

regarding "hordes."

most of the time a horde who is not Hojo is the result of an eliminated clan. As we all know, when the last Daimyo does, some of his lands go to allies. Often, the clans whom you least expect to become a "horde" become one by inheritence. So it's sometimes a good idea to ally with Daimyos who are not immedietly within reach (ie. don't have any provinces you might currently have your eye on) in order to sometimes benefit along with the rest of your opponents.

[Toranaga_Sama]

How I have beaten the Horde as Shimuza:

Ally with Takeda asap.

Take pressure off Takeda by attacking and subduing Imagawa asap.

With a similar purpose, attack Mori. It is not necessary to subdue him, but simply to keep him from attacking and bothering Takeda. Do not "Campaign" for the Mori lands, they aren't worth it. Take the two provinces bordering Aki (silver mine), that's all.

Pose no threat to Takeda.

The above purpose is simply to allow Takeda to put his full resources against Hojo.

At some short point Takeda and Hojo will get into it. Good. It matters little who wins the engagement, simply that they expend resources upon each other.

Now the next step may be a bit controversial, but given the Horde its OK.

Use Imagawa's captured port to invade his last port province on the other side of the map (forget name).

You should need relatively few troops to defend your island holdings. 2 to 4 units of cheap troops to guard the province bordering the Ronin island. Half a stack, maybe, to guard the province bordering Mori. "IF" Mori brings a formidable force to take back his provinces, its not a problem to retreat, province by province back to your Island Fortress. Remember, your purpose is not to "defeat" Mori, but rather to act as Takeda's Ally and keep Mori's attention.

Make sure you've built castles to feed the captured Imagawa port. Upgrade the captured Imagawa lands, they have pretty good Koku.

At this point you should have few threats, Takeda and Hojo are dukin it out spending resources and you are building your resources and troops. You should have taken the second Imagawa port. He is no longer a threat.

Now, you must observe the situation and act accordingly. Access quality and number of Ugeshi troops holding Shiano. It would be wise to access Oda's ability to defend and/or counterattack Owari.

The preferred choice is to take Shiano, but this is difficult. If Ugeshi has been unwise and only put a half stack of Archers and Ashigru, you will have a chance with good generalship and IF you can field a Full stack All Samuri army including your Damiyo and his Heavy Cavalry.

I forgot one thing! Disdain Ashigaru they are scum!!!! Use them ONLY to fortify your island and to stall Mori. Train Samuri at every opportunity. They will serve you well. Also, don't be afraid to move your experienced generals where needed.

After taking Shiano, fortify it with troops, many archers. Build the Horse Dojo ASAP!!! If Shiano is too well defended, then you may have to forego it. Too costly.

Forced to forego Shiano presents you with a choice. You may finish Imagawa and take Owari, Oda's most productive province, but if you do so Oda will be a real pain, he will counterattack and counterattack spending resources you need for Takeda and Hojo. If I recall correctly, Oda has a bridge province bordering Owari and there is a Ronin province bordering it as well, Oda may have taken it. If you've been quick with the above, he hasn't so you can take the bridge province along with Owari to use for defense, but this is problematic. (Spending resources on a bridge province.) Again, you may forego this option.

Another way to go is to break your alliance and attack Takeda. The most likely choice and the one I will focus upon. It is necessary to do this quickly and with small costs.

You should have built up forces on your Island; AWAY from Takeda's prying eyes! You should have 1-2 Full Stacks in reserve. Bring this force quickly and deliberately from captured Imagawa Port to captured Imagawa Port, move the stack(s) to the province bordering Aki (I mean the Takeda's Gold Mine provice), Attack Aki! This must be done in THREE moves!

If things have gone fairly well for Takeda, he should have taken Musashi and possibly Shimoza. Either way, Hojo s/b weakend some by the loss of Koku, and by the fighting. His troop quality is only FAIR, with a mix of Ashigaru and Samuri Yari with some archers, but in very good "non-horde" numbers, 2-3 and half full stacks total probably.

Takeda, on the other hand, should have 1-2 full stacks, maybe just 1 1/2 stacks in total, but they will most likely be VERY good troops, plus many are Cavalry.

If you move quickly, it will be simple to take Takeda with the right mix of troops. 2-3 units of Archers and the rest YS. MOVE QUICKLY. Most of his troops will be garrisoned on Hojo's border with a token force (half-stack) to guard against Ugeshi's Shiano troops (note Shiano's troop composition; they are a "defensive" force).

[I can't recall the name of Takeda's home province, I will call it Aki, but I mean the one with the Gold mine.]

The goal is to Overwhelm Aki quickly before Takeda can reinforce it sufficiently. It will be a battle, but you can win AND perhaps he will withdraw. The true tactic here is to attack, BOTH Aki and Sagami (the province directly south of Aki) simultaneously. Takeda cannot defend both while also defending his captured Hojo province(s).

One of them you will take in a walk. The other you'll have to battle for. Often I will simply withdraw from the battle rather than fight and keep the easy victory. In other words, Takeda will withdraw from the attack on Sagami and stand in Aki. You will withdraw from Aki, obtaining Sagami at little or no cost. You should have a full to half stack in Sagami.

[A slight tactical twist here is too gamble. Presuming you have two stacks, you can choose to attack Aki with a 1 1/2 stacks and Sagami with half a stack. The gamble being that if Takeda chooses to stand and fight in BOTH provinces you will be undermanned in Sagami and you should withdraw. Depending on your numbers, composition and how you split them up, you may find you yourself withdrawing from Aki as well. But the benefit is you may get both in a walk. It's a gamble.]

Obviously, Takeda has reinforced Aki with troops taken from the captured Hojo province(s). Consequently, Hojo will most likely attack him. Whatever happens, your goal is to bring to bear the withdrawn stack, along with any troops you can muster, some from Sagami or wherever, and Totally overwhelm Aki forcing Takeda's withdrawal or a low cost victory through. Do not get into a slugfest.

Ideally, what you hope is to force Takeda to choose to defend the captured Hojo province(s) allowing you to take and substantially garrison Aki and Sagami forestalling a counterattack. However its done, its important to do it with the correct mix of troops and with overwhelming force to minimize loss and cost.

At this point Takeda is finished. Sit back, replenish your losses, if any. Continue to build your resources, with upgrades and troops. Hopefully, you should have Takeda's castle with Horse Dojo intact. If not make building it a priority.

Sit back, keep an eye on Oda, counter his moves, observe Ugeshi, and watch the bridge battle(s) between Takeda and Hojo. Isn't it wonderful how they chew each other up!
Takeda will lose of course, but his troops were of higher quality and honor so Hojo is a bit wounded, BUT he still has a couple of stacks. BUT NO HORDE!!!

Mori is probably chopping at Takeda's troops stranded in the silver mine province, the name of which I think is really Aki; or maybe you killed Takeda and Mori or somebody inherited those provinces. Why don't you go over and take them.

Hojo has expended his would be horde fighting Takeda's high quality and high honor troops; AND if Takeda succeeded in taking both bridge provinces Hojo has probably attacked Ugeshi as well. Need for Koku. Hopefully, he was sucessful against Ugeshi. Weakening Ugeshi AND spreading Hojo's troops out.

Hojo has experienced a loss of Koku with Takeda's successful attack(s); as well as a loss of a castle if Takeda took Mushashi AND Shimoza. Also, if Shimoza was taken, another castle, by effect, as Takeda's Shimazo troops will have the province south of it, with the castle, cut off. That's TWO castles with the loss of Shimazo. Hojo should have been forced to expend Koku in building new castle(s) and improvements.

[In the event Takeda has been less than sucessful, taking Shiano can result in the above. If your able to take Shiano quickly and cheaply, allowing you to then take Musashi weakening Hojo which consequently may allow Takeda to take Shamoza.]

Well, that's my very long take on the subject. Hojo's horde has been negated, though he still has substantial troops to deal with, but your troops are of a higher quality and the newly acquired cavalry won't hurt either. Think of it this way, Hojo now will have to go up against Takeda TWICE, except Takeda is now you and your much stroner than the first. It's worked for me, even when I was a lesser Damiyo. I think I'll try this Campaign again now that I'm a stronger Damiyo.

Remember, the key is too be QUICK and DELIBERATE.

[This message has been edited by Toranaga_Sama (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Slyspy]

Oi, leave the ashigaru alone. In single player I normally choose yari ashigaru over yari samurai. I do this for three reasons. The first and least important is that the ashigaru are faster. The second is a vague feeling that I should rely heavily on the peasant troops in imitation of historical reality. The third reason is that their little sprites look much better than the yari samurai graphics.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Ii Naomasa]

Here, here, Slyspy! Such disdain for the bushi who fight on the very soil their fathers tilled! No wonder Ashigaru run. If I were a dog so whipped for not being a man, I would desert my master at first opportunity as well! Ashigaru are bushi as any samurai, even if they have not the luxury of good ancestory, training, and diet. Ashigaru of considerable honor (and they seem to gain it quite easily) are decent troops and to call them fodder is to overlook a unit of value.

Okay, I'll stop defending this hopeless cause. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I started off avoiding Ashigaru like the plague, but learned to use them and even start to like them for many of the reasons Slyspy points out. He forgot one good reason for picking them: aside from speed, appearance, and closer historical accuracy, they also provide a bit more of a challenge to have your armies featuring them. You can learn to predict the AI's behavior, but adding the additional factor of some portion of your troops abandoning the fights adds a bit more chaos and fun, in my most humble opinion. I'm not so much a pro-Ashigaru as a pro-ethical treatment of ashigaru by samurai http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

His hatred of ashigaru aside, Toranaga-sama strategy is not only a valid one, but does illustrate a very seldom used tactic of playing the other players off each other. Although the chaotic nature of the AI in terms of diplomacy makes this all very uncertain, you can find yourself in much better positions if you use allegiances effectively, as he demonstrates. Buddy-ing up with unlikely allies and making things easier for them can keep them around to help sap the strength off a larger foe (and potentially you may get your ally's lands if he falls in said battle). Now, at any point the ally you've helped for years may just turn on you...but I just pass it off as change in thinking...especially since it often happens around the time of a new heir.


[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Hirosito]

i always get the feeling i have to kill everyone
whilst the AI trade shots they never help a lot except when killing the daimyo

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[Devil's Advocate]

So when it comes to alliances playing as Shimazu, am I hearing limit offers you accept to say 1 or 2 and preferably avoid aligning with Hojo and Takeda?

I've found aligning with Mori early on leads to a backstab.

[Slyspy]

Form alliances whenever you can. They may not keep to it for more than a season (not even that if its only a cease-fire) but then you don't have to keep your end of the deal either. Some daimyos are more likely to keep their word than others. The main benefit of forming alliances is to gain a dead ally's land and armies on the other side of Japan for free. Oh, and to see how far your emmissaries can get before being assassinated.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Toranaga_Sama]

Quote Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
So when it comes to alliances playing as Shimazu, am I hearing limit offers you accept to say 1 or 2 and preferably avoid aligning with Hojo and Takeda?

I've found aligning with Mori early on leads to a backstab.[/QUOTE]

1, I fail to see any purpose in aligning with Hojo--the horde is your #1 enemy.

2, IMO, aligning with Takeda is a prrority.

On alliances in general, first they DO work; second, be intelligent about it; 3, just like with the battle engine, its best to think like your opponents are real people, with genuine motives.

As you mentioned, lets take Mori for example. Your correct Mori will stab you while smiling in your face. Why does he do this? Because he is in disparate straights from the beginning!!

Think about it, he starts off with too many provinces to garrison (perhaps the most of any) and guard, that produce little Koku; AND he's got THREE fronts to guard (Oda, Takeda and Shamazu).

What's a Damiyo to do?

His provinces barely produce enough Koku to feed his present troops let alone train more and build castles. He needs more koku JUST to get started. He HAS to attack; more so than any other Damiyo.

Hojo and Ugeshi, can sit back and afford, from their present income, to upgrade both lands and castles while training troops. They've got the best land, with Hojo also having a mine province.

Even Takeda has this capability. He has TWO provinces with mines along with one excellent Koku producing province and TWO port provinces with trade income.

Imagawa is next with a couple of very good Koku producing provinces, along with TWO port provinces with trade income.

Shamazu, is pretty short on Koku with no mines nor ports, but he has Georgraphy on his side for safety.

Oda? Ever wonder why he's so passive? Its because he's got a very good Koku producer in Owari, a good one in Kawachi and an ok one in that "monk" province (forget name); PLUS his fronts have TWO river provinces for defense and the third front is the Ronin province holding Kyoto and the Emporer with a whole lot of monks (nobody's coming through there).

Mori? He's got nada.

I think he's a little pissed and envious. He wants what you got and want's it NOW. Frankly, he NEEDS it.

The above was from memory, but is pretty accurate.

Quickly, Takeda is another one where the above dictates his motives and actions. Have you noticed that it is somewhat difficult to ally with him? His usual response is for you to prove yourself before he will ally. Which means attack someone where it will benefit him.

Why is he like this? Frankly, he's fairly wealthy, BUT he fronts the two wealthiest Damiyos in the land. He's got the BEST troops in the land, but FOUR fronts. He's a serious kinda guy. He doesn't need friends, he could USE an ally, so put up or shut up is the deal.

The difference between Mori and Takeda? Both will betray you. Mori will do so at any moment, because he has to. Takeda will attack any weakness to gain an edge on Hojo and Ugeshi.

Man, I could go on, this game is really fascinating if you think about. Shogun's AI is damn good! CA/DT GREAT job!