Palestinian TV carries 'blatant anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying' broadcast

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Palestinian TV carries 'blatant anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying' broadcast
By israelinsider staff and partners May 16, 2005

The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to fire the Head of Palestinian TV, after a televised sermon called Jews "a spreading cancer."

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world... the Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts," Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis said Friday during a sermon from his Gaza Mosque in the presence of uniformed Palestinian police.

"Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews, but what the Jews did to Germany," he went on to say. "True the Germans killed and burnt Jews, but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy."

In a stinging press release, the Center's Dean Rabbi Marvin Hier and Associate Dean Rabbi Abraham Cooper said the broadcast came days before Abbas's scheduled meeting with President Bush and during the week commemorating 60 years since the Nazis' defeat.

"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Abu Mazen (Abbas)," the two said in a press release following the incident.

Both Cooper and Hier have demanded Abbas inform Bush that the head of the Palestinian Broadcasting Company, and all those associated with the broadcast of this "big lie," have been fired, in their upcoming meeting.

"Is this genocidal sermon the kind of peace dividend that the people of Israel can look forward to?" they said.

Disgusting.

[Papewaio]

I agree it is disgusting.

If anything the number of Jews killed by the Germans is underestimated not overestimated.

The Nazis did kill a whole lot of different people, but their primary hatred was the Jews. The Nazis even had a special unit to slander Einstein.

[PanzerJaeger]

Palestinian TV carries 'blatant anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying' broadcast

Of course it does.. thats what palastinians do.

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world... the Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts," Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis said Friday during a sermon from his Gaza Mosque in the presence of uniformed Palestinian police.

And you wonder why we call them Islamofascists?


It will be interesting to see how the liberals respond to this if they even do.

If this kind of thing were said in the west they would be quick to condemn it, but the palastians are their pet project so im sure some will try and defend this crap.

[LittleGrizzly]

If Abbas has any sense he'll fire those in charge of this disgusting incident

[bmolsson]

This is sad and disturbing. As a muslim I am really ashame.....

[Papewaio]

Of course it does.. thats what palastinians do.



I don't think all Palastinians think like this... careful with the blanket statements.

I do think a larger proportion of them believe these ideas and this is a direct result of following any fundamentalist idealology mixed with ignorance and a heaping of poverty you get hatred aimed at the nearest available target.

Similar formulas for the IRA, KKK and Brown Shirts to boot. But it wouldn't be fair to say all Irish kill English, all White Americans lynch Africa Americans or all Germans are Nazis... so in fairness it is not right to say Palestinians deny the holocaust based on the actions of a portion of the population...

[PanzerJaeger]

My opinion is based on much more than that single broadcast. Weve been hearing such things out of that part of the world for years.

Probably not every individual palastinian feels this way, but if we were to talk about them in the sense of a group i would say that group is very anti-jewish.

[Byzantine Prince]

Gawain, I could have written that. It's not hard to make stuff up. George Bush does it pretty well, it seems. ~D


This is sad and disturbing. As a muslim I am really ashame.....
Wait... didn't you say you didn't believe in god?

[Paul Peru]

Disgusting.
A side effect of freedom of speech... takes some getting used to.
Live broadcasts have to go.
All of a sudden you risk to have som big hateful tit on the screen.

Of course it does.. thats what palastinians do.

Yes, they are some kind of cancer, aren't they? :dizzy2:

[Al Khalifah]

Such attitudes have to be challenged and put right. Perhaps if Palestinians were made to visit the Holocaust museum in Israel they might appreciate that the extent of the suffering the Jews endured in their struggle was far greater than many believe.

I don't consider myself a conservative, but think I'm quite liberal (not in the American sense of the word meaning coward/gay) however I have absolutely no time for the Palestinians. They're a bunch of trouble makers who should be ignored until they are prepared to engage in civilised discussions and stop trying to get what they want through violence.

[King Edward]

The Israelies are not all sweetness and roses themselves......

[Paul Peru]

Such attitudes have to be challenged and put right. Perhaps if Palestinians were made to visit the Holocaust museum in Israel they might appreciate that the extent of the suffering the Jews endured in their struggle was far greater than many believe. That would be a great idea!

I have absolutely no time for the Palestinians. They're a bunch of trouble makers who should be ignored until they are prepared to engage in civilised discussions and stop trying to get what they want through violence.I don't have much time for them myself. Actually I don't even have time to follow up the discussions in the Tavern! ~:eek:
However, I've got to take this opportunity to get up on my high horse and state that each Palestinian is an individual and a human being. :charge:

[LittleGrizzly]

however I have absolutely no time for the Palestinians. They're a bunch of trouble makers who should be ignored until they are prepared to engage in civilised discussions and stop trying to get what they want through violence.

maybe they wouldn't be so violent if they didn't live under an occupation ?

i didn't want to start excusing thier hatred but with all this hate being directed at the palestinians i can't bite my tongue any longer. I don't think its that the Palestinians are anti-jewish it that thier anti the group that causes them alot of pain which happens to be israels (who are mostly jews) so they get angry and do things like this (not that it makes it right)

[Al Khalifah]

But the Palestinians perpetuate the violence by continuing their pointless war of attrition against the Israelis. I'm not saying Israel as a state is whiter than white, because it's not and it has inspired a considerable amount of the hatred that comes its way, but Israel has to maintain its national security. The reason Israel is so jumpy is because it knows that the rest of the Middle Eastern nations and a lot of their people are just itching for an oppurtunity to invade.

The Arab nations must accept that Israel is a nation that exists and will always continue to exist into the forseeable future. Working with Israel to help find a peaceful solution would produce a far better result for the people living under Israeli occupation than this continual campaign of terror that has failed to yield any outcome except for an ever rising death toll.

[Meneldil]

Heh, I once saw on Al-Jaziraa (sp) that AIDS was created by the Jews to exterminate the Arabs :dizzy2:

[LittleGrizzly]

But the Palestinians perpetuate the violence by continuing their pointless war of attrition against the Israelis.

well i'd call it a cycle of violence, both preferring to strike back than turn the other cheek.

but Israel has to maintain its national security. The reason Israel is so jumpy is because it knows that the rest of the Middle Eastern nations and a lot of their people are just itching for an oppurtunity to invade.

I now the arab world united twice before to hit israel but after the deal carter struck with the egyptians isn't another arab israel war considerably less likely, and in todays terms you really think they could take israel out ?

The Arab nations must accept that Israel is a nation that exists and will always continue to exist into the forseeable future.

well i think thats slowly starting to happen, UAE recently opened an israeli embassy, and egypt has has relations with israel since the carter deal (i think) i would expect the new iraqi goverment would at least open an israeli embassy

Working with Israel to help find a peaceful solution would produce a far better result for the people living under Israeli occupation than this continual campaign of terror that has failed to yield any outcome except for an ever rising death toll.

I agree, but aslong as israels actions cause enough anger among the palestinians there will be some palestinians willing to blow themselves up, which means the majority of non suicidal palestinians will have to live under an occupation which unfortunatly will cause things like this.

[bmolsson]

Wait... didn't you say you didn't believe in god?


Yes, I said that, but even if I don't believe in God I am a registered muslim and feel partly responisble for things like this, as well as islamofacist terrorism. I am doing what I can to stop it.

[Al Khalifah]

well i'd call it a cycle of violence, both preferring to strike back than turn the other cheek.
True, but unfortunately for the Palestinians, they're the ones who will have to turn the other cheek first if the cycle is ever to be broken. Israel has far more resources to contribute to the fight. Also Israel already has its nationhood, in order for Palestine to gain her own, Israel will have to agree and so they need Israeli co-operation but the reverse isn't really true (although the majority of Israelis would like the violence to stop).

I now the arab world united twice before to hit israel but after the deal carter struck with the egyptians isn't another arab israel war considerably less likely, and in todays terms you really think they could take israel out ?
No they can/would not, but only because Israel has an excellent defence system and the Arab nations do not have sufficient ordinance to deliver an effective first strike capable of crippling the Israeli military before a total counter-strike could be innitiated against the aggressor. Egpyt and Iraq also have nothing to gain from such an attack. If Iran were to develop nuclear weapons and the required delivery systems, then Israel would be in a state of danger.

I agree, but aslong as israels actions cause enough anger among the palestinians there will be some palestinians willing to blow themselves up, which means the majority of non suicidal palestinians will have to live under an occupation which unfortunatly will cause things like this.
I agree, but aslong as there are some Palestinians willing to blow themselves up, there will be Israels actions.

[Beirut]

Certainly not the brightest statement by any sheikh. Seems like a bit of a bonehead really.

Just curious though, was this broadcast before or during the ongoing illegal settlements/ theft of Palestinian land aided and abeted by the Israeli government? (Probably during, since the theft has been going on for years and shows no signs of stopping.)

Interesting. The Israelis are still stealing Palestinian land, stealing their water, prohibiting them from growing the food they want, conducting arrests and detentions without trial, using torture, but it's the Israelis who are all hot and bothered because somebody said something they didn't like.

"Now look! I realize we stole your land, blew up your house, shut off your water, jailed your son, shot your daughter, and tortured your husband, but that guy on TV was downright rude and we want a stop to it!"

I love the line with the two Israelis asking if this is the peace dividend they can look forward to. Ahh, gee, maybe if you got the hell out of Palestine and stopped using it as your own private prison camp for s**** & giggles that peace dividend you're whinning about might actually evolve.

[English assassin]

I agree, but aslong as there are some Palestinians willing to blow themselves up, there will be Israels actions.

So, what, we give up?

Herding people into prison camps, taking their land and water, and then dumping what must be the single most obnoxious people on the planet in their midst (I mean the settlers not Isrealis in general), using tanks and gunships as crowd control, its not too surprising some palestinains think there is nothing to live for and are easy meat for the recruiters is it? What are they supposed to do? Oh yes, eff off into someone elses country get a job and stop complaining about what was taken from them, I remember now.

Just as the Arabs have to accept Israel exists so its time Israel accepts the palestinians aren't going to go away. As Israel's vision for the future of the palestinians is a people in a prison camp its understandable the palestinians are not too happy about this. Of course the palestinians should have and did not demonstrate that they had a vision for the future that did not involve killing Isrealis, as I have said before Arafat was an enemy to his people. The fact is though that Isreal has now destroyed any infrastructure the palestinians may have had to prevent terror, deliberately in my view since it is not in the right wingers interests to end the conflict, so the first move can only come from Israel.

I'm not holding my breath.

(NB lets not redo the old "there were no palestinians until the jews came to Israel," thread, its an insult.)

[Al Khalifah]

I was not suggesting that at all. I merely meant to point out that if the Palestinians want to achieve anything then they have to end the violence, because as you correctly pointed out, the violence isn't of too great a concern to the Israeli government.
I am for a Palestinian state, but I would not want to see it as a vector for legitimising attacks against Israel.

[Beirut]

(NB lets not redo the old "there were no Palestinians until the jews came to Israel," thread, its an insult.)

Yes, but what a valuable debating tool it is. If you don't like what the other side is saying, just stick you fingers in your ears, close your eyes and yell "You don't exist! You don't exist! You don't exist!"

Makes debating real easy. :yes:

[Paul Peru]

I agree wholeheartedly with Beirut and EA.
I tend to get a bit worked up on this issue, so I felt better reading Beirut's angry words. :charge:

One more thing: an anti-semitic sheikh? ~:confused:

[Paul Peru]

Yes, but what a valuable debating tool it is. If you don't like what the other side is saying, just stick you fingers in your ears, close your eyes and yell "You don't exist! You don't exist! You don't exist!"

Makes debating real easy. :yes:
I try that with the Moon People sometimes.
(If I leave my tin foil hat at home) :bow:

[LittleGrizzly]

True, but unfortunately for the Palestinians, they're the ones who will have to turn the other cheek first if the cycle is ever to be broken.

the problem is i don't think the isrealis are the only ones that can do this, the israeli goverment can order something done and it will get done, the palestinians would have to decide as an entire people to stop.

[Tribesman]

Why should the head of TV resign ? It was a live broadcast , you can have no editorial control over what someone says live on TV .
Should the Palestinian Authorities censor every statement ever made before they are broadcast , should clerics submit their semons for government approval before they are allowed to say anything ?
Its just another case of a ranting dickhead in a world thats full of them .

It will be interesting to see how the liberals respond to this if they even do.
If this kind of thing were said in the west they would be quick to condemn it, but the palastians are their pet project so im sure some will try and defend this crap.
~D ~D ~D Oh dear Panzer , you are young but you will learn ~;)
Let them speak , it don't matter if they are Arabs Jews Americans Africans Europeans , it don't matter if they are Fascist Zionists White Supremesists Black Seperatists or anything else . Let them speak openly then rip them apart for what they say .

BTW could one of the arabic speakers go to the Simon Wiesenthal centre website and give a full translation of this "sermon" , from the live broadcast link at the top of the news page ?

[Al Khalifah]

But if the Israeli government ordered that the IDF should not take counter-measures against Palestinian terrorists then it would take a lot of unavenged civilian casualties before the they realised that what they were doing was wrong and international opinion shifted to a point where they had to stop. By this time the Israeli people would be in absolute uproar because nothing was being done to stop the terror being committed against them and the Israeli government would be finished.

There is very little that the Israelis can do to stop the terrorists via covert means. It would be extremely difficult for a Mossad agent to infiltrate the PLA or any other terror network in the region and so intelligence gathering is limitted.

[LittleGrizzly]

But if the Israeli government ordered that the IDF should not take counter-measures against Palestinian terrorists then it would take a lot of unavenged civilian casualties before the they realised that what they were doing was wrong and international opinion shifted to a point where they had to stop.

well if the israelis stopped all negative impact on the palestinians lives (the checkpoints water supplies ect) i figure there would be a minimal amount of attack from people who have already been enraged to that state, but after those if israel stopped do you think the palestinians would still commit suicide and take israelis with them for no reason ?

There is very little that the Israelis can do to stop the terrorists via covert means. It would be extremely difficult for a Mossad agent to infiltrate the PLA or any other terror network in the region and so intelligence gathering is limitted.

i would think they would be able to ? maybe i think to highly of them, ive always thought theres only two ways to stop terrorism, win hearts and minds or kill like stalin (which isn't as gaurenteed as the hearts and minds method)

[Al Khalifah]

But in the middle period between Israel stopping recriminations and the the Palestinians stopping strikes (which could be several months long) the Israeli people would be infuriated with their governments failure to respond to threats to their safety. It quite simply wouldn't work. Imagine if America had just ignored Al Qaeda after the September 11th strike in the hope that the terrorists would just go away if they didn't give them a motive.

Hearts and minds is an expensive approach, but Israel is slowly learning by making agreements and staged pull-outs from settlements. This gets stopped though every time there is more violence.

[Steppe Merc]

This is quite disgusting. However, we can't blame all Palestinians for these bunch of lies.
And Beruit, while I agree that the Isreals are hardly blameless, and that the government's acitons are unacceptable, I don't think that it excuses this sort of thing. Not that you were saying it does, but it's all to easy for both sides to use this sort of argument today:

"Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews, but what the Jews did to Germany," he went on to say. "True the Germans killed and burnt Jews, but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy."

[Idomeneas]

laconicly speaking, the palaistinian tv statement is just annoying, what Israeli gov do to those people is monstrous.

[Beirut]

I agree 100% that what the sheikh said was wrong.

What I find interesting is that the Israelis, while imprisoning an entire people, get all huffy if they say something nasty about them.

What did the Israels expect after decades of torturing Palestinians, massive human rights violations and an illegal and brutal occupation? A testimonial dinner?

[LittleGrizzly]

But in the middle period between Israel stopping recriminations and the the Palestinians stopping strikes (which could be several months long) the Israeli people would be infuriated with their governments failure to respond to threats to their safety. It quite simply wouldn't work.

well remember that ceasefire not long ago ? It lasted a month (minimum) and that was with israel doing nowhere close to what im suggesting, i would think the public pressure (palestinian on terrorists) would keep them in line, i think there'd be a few desperate attacks from those wanting to keep the conflict going, maybe im just an optimist.

Imagine if America had just ignored Al Qaeda after the September 11th strike in the hope that the terrorists would just go away if they didn't give them a motive.

I think the situation is to different to make an adequate comparision, no offence.

Hearts and minds is an expensive approach

to be honest other than mass murder i think its the only workable approach, military and anti-terrorism measures can only do so much. Can you think of another way other than mass murder or hearts and minds ?

This gets stopped though every time there is more violence.

vicious cycle

[Don Corleone]

laconicly speaking, the palaistinian tv statement is just annoying, what Israeli gov do to those people is monstrous.

What both sides do to each other is monstrous. Israel is at least attempting (recently) to work towards common ground, in working with Abbas. Abbas is clearly interested only in escalating the situation.

However, I'm actually done defending Israel. If they want to sell our most advanced weapons systems to the Chinese, they clearly have all the answers and should be prepared to take care of themselves.

[LittleGrizzly]

Abbas is clearly interested only in escalating the situation.

what makes you think this ?

[Don Corleone]

Look Grizz, if in the course of the thread you haven't seen that Abbas is whipping his people up, nothing I can say is going to open your eyes. But, one last parting shot on this topic, and then I'm done. Go pick up a Palestinian geography book. Flip to the section on the Middle East. Try to find Israel. Even more chilling, pick up one of their social studies books. Flip to the section on ethnic minorities among the Palestinians. Try to find mention of Jews. Meaning? In the 'future', there will be no Israel and there will be no Jews.

Like I said, Israel seems to think that it's okay to take weapons systems we've sold them and turn around & sell them to the Chinese. They were outraged that we got upset about it, claiming it was a question of sovereignty. They keep spying on us to get that which we hold back from them, in light of these sales to China. I think we have to reexamine the relationship.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How did this turn into another Isreal Palestinan thread. Some of you seem to be missing what this nut job said. He didnt say Israel is the cause of all evil but the Jews. This goes back way before the creation of Israel. Imagine if a Rabbi came on Israeli tv and said that Islam has always been the cause of all the evil in the world.since its inception. The outcry accross the world would be deafening. It has nothing to do with hating Israel but everything to do with hating jews no matter where their from. If there were no Israel he still would say the same.

[Don Corleone]

How did this turn into another Isreal Palestinan thread. Some of you seem to be missing what this nut job said. He didnt say Israel is the cause of all evil but the Jews. This goes back way before the creation of Israel. Imagine if a Rabbi came on Israeli tv and said that Islam has always been the cause of all the evil in the world.since its inception. The outcry accross the world would be deafening. It has nothing to do with hating Israel but everything to do with hating jews no matter where their from. If there were no Israel he still would say the same.

You make a very good point there. Okay, back on topic...

[English assassin]

All right, he's a nut job and he shouldn't have said what he did, and it shouldn't have been broadcast.

Its going to be a very short thread if the topic is "was the mullah right".

I mean, I've seen settlers on TV claiming they were Gods chosen people and the Palestinians were trespassers in God's holy land whom were more or less asking to be shot with God's holy bullets, so, what, we should do a post saying who agrees with the wacko?

[Don Corleone]

Actually, if you have links to transcripts to that sort of thing, I think you should start a thread on it. No surprise, but we don't see the settlers ever over here, unless they're getting carried away on a stretcher. We know they're religious fanatics, but we never hear them speak in interviews.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

so, what, we should do a post saying who agrees with the wacko?

Well peole here seem to be saying well of course he says things like that look what the Israelis have done to them. The problem is thats not why he says it. Its an underlying hatred for Jews that I fear most Palestinians and for that matter muslims seem to have. No not all of them.

[Beirut]

How did this turn into another Isreal Palestinan thread.

Because you started it and you start most of the Israel/Palestine threads. Most of which start off with some nasty thing the palestinians have done. So, we respond.



Some of you seem to be missing what this nut job said.

No, we noticed. Most of us, if not all of us, thought he was 100% wrong to say it.


Imagine if a Rabbi came on Israeli tv and said that Islam has always been the cause of all the evil in the world.since its inception. The outcry accross the world would be deafening.

I thought you said that. ~;)

And no, it wouldn't be.


It has nothing to do with hating Israel but everything to do with hating jews no matter where their from. If there were no Israel he still would say the same.

The guy is a nutbar. To hell with him.

But you cannot mention Jew and Palestinian in the same sentence without mentioning Israel and Palestine. The situation is much to deep for that. Could you talk about the black population of South Africa in the 1970s without refering to apartheid? Can you mention Booker T. Washington without refering to slavery? You cannot mention any Palestinian "event" without refering to the brutal Israeli occupation they live under. Sadly, it colours every aspect of their existence. It overwhelms them as a people exactly as slavery and apartheid did to the black populations of the US and South Africa.

[LittleGrizzly]

Look Grizz, if in the course of the thread you haven't seen that Abbas is whipping his people up, nothing I can say is going to open your eyes.

well post 26 tribesman said

Why should the head of TV resign ? It was a live broadcast , you can have no editorial control over what someone says live on TV .
Should the Palestinian Authorities censor every statement ever made before they are broadcast , should clerics submit their semons for government approval before they are allowed to say anything ?

is he wrong ? did abbas actively encourage or allow what was said ?

Go pick up a Palestinian geography book. Flip to the section on the Middle East. Try to find Israel. Even more chilling, pick up one of their social studies books. Flip to the section on ethnic minorities among the Palestinians. Try to find mention of Jews. Meaning? In the 'future', there will be no Israel and there will be no Jews.

i don't see them suddenly being able to do that, i bet you once the israel palestine situation has been resolved ethnic problems between them will start to receed.

Some of you seem to be missing what this nut job said.

obviously he's an idiot i don't think anyone thinks otherwise ?

Well peole here seem to be saying well of course he says things like that look what the Israelis have done to them.

i think its a symptom of it, it doesn't excuse it...

Its an underlying hatred for Jews that I fear most Palestinians and for that matter muslims seem to have. No not all of them.


rivalaries fade after any excuse for them is gone, think england france now....

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Because you started it and you start most of the Israel/Palestine threads. Most of which start off with some nasty thing the palestinians have done. So, we respond.

So Im getting to you ~D


No, we noticed. Most of us, if not all of us, thought he was 100% wrong to say it.

But you seemed to be saying he was accussing Israel of these things . I was pointing out it was all jews. The probems between Israel and Palestine didnt create this . Theycame about because of teachings like this.


I thought you said that.


You now I never said that. Besides Im just a shmuck on the internet in a gaming forum. I doubt Ill have any effect on public opinion anywhere.


But you cannot mention Jew and Palestinian in the same sentence without mentioning Israel and Palestine.

Not in front of you it seems. ~:)

[Beirut]

So Im getting to you ~D

From the moment I met you. :sweetheart:


You now I never said that. But perhaps I'm being unfair.

Weeeeeeell, you have pointed your boat in that direction once or twice.


Besides Im just a shmuck on the internet in a gaming forum.

Shhhh! Not so loud. AdrianII and Panzer both think this site is linked to the UN.


Not in front of you it seems. ~:)

Chu got dat right baby! ~D

[Al Khalifah]

Back on topic.... The guys a complete racist and denialist.

[English assassin]

Actually, if you have links to transcripts to that sort of thing, I think you should start a thread on it. No surprise, but we don't see the settlers ever over here, unless they're getting carried away on a stretcher. We know they're religious fanatics, but we never hear them speak in interviews

Fair comment. I'll see what I can find on a reliable source from the lovely Moshe Levinger and his mates in Gush Emunim, obviously I'm a bit reluctant to post quotes attributed to them by just anyone since they may be made up. Although if the views attributed to him are true this could be a problem since reputable new organisations don't often give a platform to extreme racists who advocate terrorist actions, which is where we started.

In the mean time though I did find this which is OT but rather illuminating in its own way...


Beginning in 1967, when Israel militarily seized Arab East Jerusalem, Jewish terrorists on more than 100 occasions have laid siege to the Muslim Mosque. Here are a few of the assaults: August 1967 - Chief Chaplain of the Armed Forces Shlomo Goren - later Israel's chief rabbi - leads 50 armed extremists onto Haram al-Sharif. "It is a holy commandment," Goren said, for Jews to go to the Muslim grounds, which Jews call the Temple Mount."

Writing in an Israeli publication, Eti Ronel reports: "Many rabbis, including members of the Council of the Chief Rabbinate, support Jewish sovereignty" over Haram al-Sharif.

August 21, 1969 - Jewish extremists set fire to Al Aqsa, destroying a priceless wood and ivory pulpit sent from Aleppo by the Muslim ruler Saladin. The arson prompts the United Nations Security Council to condemn Israel's failure to curb terrorist attacks on Islam's shrine. Four months later (19/12/69) a group of militant Jews storm their way to Haram al-Sahrif, in order, they claim, "conduct Hanukkah prayers."

March 3, 1971 - Gershon Solomon leads Temple Mount Faithful followers onto Haram al-Sharif. After struggling with Palestinian guards, they are expelled. Three years later (3/3/74) Solomon again, with followers, storms the Mosque. Again (14/7/78) Solomon leads militant Jews onto the Islamic holy grounds. Palestinians stage protests. Israeli troops hurl tear gas to quell the rioting.

August 10, 1980 - Three hundred Gush Emunim fanatics, heavily armed, overcome Palestinian police and storm the grounds, but are later dispersed. A month later (15/9/80) armed Gush Emunim settlers associated with Stanley Goldfoot and the Temple Mount Faithful again force their way onto the Mosque grounds. After scuffling with police they are evicted.

April 11, 1982 - Alan Goodman, an Israeli citizen with a U.S. passport, marches into al Aqsa with an M-16 rifle and opens fire on worshippers, killing two Palestinians and wounding others. After a short sentence the Israeli government releases Goodman. Unrepentant, Goodman boasts, "I fulfilled my mission."

July 25, 1982 - Yoel Lerner, a member of the militant Meir Kahane Kach movement, storms the mosque grounds with plans to dynamite and destroy the Dome of The Rock.

March 10, 1983 - Armed Gush Emunim fanatics climb walls onto Haram al-Sharif, attempting to overcome security guards and take the mosque by storm. They have in their possession large quantities of explosives, automatic rifles and pistols. Twenty-nine are charged and held for trial. September 21, 1983 - An Israeli court acquits the 29 Jewish terrorists who six months earlier had laid siege on the mosque.

January 27, 1984 - In the most ambitious plot to dynamite and destroy the mosque, Jewish terrorists, armed with 250 pounds of explosives, including dozens of grenades, boxes of dynamite and 12 rounds of mortar, attempt to dynamite and destroy the mosque. They are led by Rabbi Moshe Levinger, one of the most militant of Jewish extremists.

1994 - The Israelis appoint Meir Davidson, a senior official of Ateret Cohanim, as municipal adviser on Palestinian properties. This signals the Israeli government will work closely with an organization whose aim is destruction of the mosque.

September 1996 - Ateret Cohanim, funded largely through tax-exempt dollars donated by rich American Jews, including Miami millionaire Irving Moskowitz, opened a tunnel - excavated in secret night-time operations - that runs the length of the Al Aqsa complex. The controversial tunnel sparked intense fighting which claimed the lives of 60 Palestinians and 15 Israeli soldiers. Israeli Prime Minister Binyiman Netanyahu proudly visited the tunnel, as have fundamentalist Christian leaders.

October 18, 1998 - Gershon Solomon, with followers waving Israeli flags and blowing rams' horns, mounts a ramp to the mosque grounds. "The time has come to rebuild the Jewish Temple," said Solomon. To underscore this point, Solomon parked near an Old City gate a flatbed truck carrying a 4 ton marble "cornerstone" for that new temple.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The palestinians resorted to terrorism (creation of the PLO and its charter saying the destruction of Israel was its goal in the eraly 1960s) to destroy Israel before Israel 'occupied' any of the 'palestinian' lands.

They aren't fighting to end the 'occupation', they are fighting to destroy Israel. Arafat was advised by the KGB that if he pretended to want peace, aid money would flow like water because the westerners would believe he meant it. And lo, many seem to have fallen for it.

Crazed Rabbit

[LittleGrizzly]

They aren't fighting to end the 'occupation', they are fighting to destroy Israel.

yes all palestinians just want to destroy israel, the fact they've been occupied and have had relatives killed by israel is purely coincidence.

Like those damn iraqi rebels was it in 90 ? 91 ? just wanted to destroy the race that was incharge

[Redleg]

They aren't fighting to end the 'occupation', they are fighting to destroy Israel.

yes all palestinians just want to destroy israel, the fact they've been occupied and have had relatives killed by israel is purely coincidence.

Like those damn iraqi rebels was it in 90 ? 91 ? just wanted to destroy the race that was incharge

Before one takes only the side of the Palestinians read the manifesto's of the PLO and other groups that are committing the acts of terrorism in the state of Israel. When you look at these Manifesto's pay close attention to the date that it was written.

The PLO manifesto has called for the destruction of the state of Israel since its conception. Do a web search or even a hard copy research - some libraries (SP) have a copy of the manifesto.

Both sides are equally quilty of continuing the conflict - to where it is in its present state. To state otherwise is just - well fooling yourself in my opinion. Several times Israel has been asked to bend to world opinion and work with the Palenstinians - and when one leader actually tried to do this a Israeli zealot shot him dead. The Palestinians have also been asked several times to work with the Israeli government to halt the bloodshed and find away to resolve the issues - and each and everytime another zealot begins the cycle of violence again.

Its a nice little vicious cycle that has been around since before the formation of the state of Israel.

[Idomeneas]

Back on topic.... The guys a complete racist and denialist.

Palaistinian people has the courage to stand unarmed against tanks, armed to the teeth soldiers and throw stones with slings just for the sake of pride, and ready to face concequences. what you expect to praise Israelis?
The first victim in war is the truth.
But the main point for me is that this is just a silly statement in tv. You know how much of those are said worldwide? Trillions. A stupid fanatic statement though cannot erase what is going on down there a nd even more what a people that promotes themselves (officialy) as everlasting victims do to another people right now.
For example If i had somebody down, kicking his head on the street and he was calling names on me. As passing by viewer you would stop and mark that he shouldnt say such words or that i should stop before i kill him?

[Redleg]

For example If i had somebody down, kicking his head on the street and he was calling names on me. As passing by viewer you would stop and mark that he shouldnt say such words or that i should stop before i kill him?

I know exactly what I would do - however do you know what you should be doing if I was kicking that individual in the head?

However this does not apply to the Palenstine - Israeli situtation. Because just as often as its the Israel state doing the violence - there is a Palenstine zealot also doing violence.

[Beirut]

The difference is that the Israelis are brutally occupying Palestinian land.

The Palestinians aren't occupying anybody.

There is an aggressor and a victim here. There is a right and a wrong.

Israel is wrong.

[Tribesman]

Actually, if you have links to transcripts to that sort of thing, I think you should start a thread on it. No surprise, but we don't see the settlers ever over here, unless they're getting carried away on a stretcher. We know they're religious fanatics, but we never hear them speak in interviews.
But I thought you had Fox news over there , don't they claim to be fair and balanced ~;)
Come on they must have carried some of the settlers statements recently , there have been some really good ones lately , stuff like Sharons plans for a partial withdrawel of a few thousand illegal settlers is a bigger atrocity against Jews than the Holocaust was !!!!
Bloody nutters everwhere you look :embarassed:

[Don Corleone]

Not for nothing Tribesman, but where I come from, when somebody acknowledges that you might have a point and asks for more information on your point of view, it's considered poor form to shove it up their $^!. But hey, we Americans are an ignorant folk.

Just out of curiosity, what does "Wear the fox hat" mean, anyway?

[LittleGrizzly]

The PLO manifesto has called for the destruction of the state of Israel since its conception.

I now but i think the vast majority of palestinians would rather live as a normal country than keep thier lives a misery to destroy israel

[Redleg]

The PLO manifesto has called for the destruction of the state of Israel since its conception.

I now but i think the vast majority of palestinians would rather live as a normal country than keep thier lives a misery to destroy israel

And I would agree - but to only point the blame at Israel as some are doing is disengous (SP?) toward what the problem is in Israel. Just as only blaming the Palenstine people is disengous (SP).

For instance why is the West Bank occupied? If you just consider the occupation and that is all you focus on - you will always conclude that Israel is the transgessor and therefor in the wrong.

If you go back to the two of the Arab-Israeli Conflicts, especially the 1967 war then you see that the arab nations when they attacked Israel assembled and massed from some of the areas that are now occupied by Israeli forces.

Should Israel remove themselves from the occupied areas - sure, but they must have some sort of security guarntee (SP) before anyone can expect them to move out. So far it seems some Palenstine and yes many Arab states will not grant them the right to exist as a nation.

Like I have always said on this issue - both are equally at fault.

[LittleGrizzly]

but to only point the blame at Israel

I disagree with those people, i understand why the lands were originally taken.


Should Israel remove themselves from the occupied areas - sure, but they must have some sort of security guarntee (SP) before anyone can expect them to move out. So far it seems some Palenstine and yes many Arab states will not grant them the right to exist as a nation.

well they haven't attackjed since the deal with american deal with egypt ? egypt would be nessecary for an attack, UAE just opened an israeli embassy and withdrawal could only improve relations.

[Tribesman]

it's considered poor form to shove it up their $^!.
I that legal in your state . ~;)
Sorry about the tone of the reply Don , its just that with all the mentions of Liberal bias in the American media that erupt on this board every now and then I would expect this Liberal bias to actually have some substance , but I suppose that would be like expecting Fox News to be fair and balanced or O'Reilly to stick to his "No Spin" bull .
For the best coverage of statements from either Palestinian or Israeli nutters read the Israel and Palestinian newspapers , most are on-line free and avaiable in English , the Knesset , IDF and Palestinian authorities websites are also a good source .

Just out of curiosity, what does "Wear the fox hat" mean, anyway?
It is from a short lived radio commercial that was withdrawn after all the complaints for its use of foul language .
Next time you cannot find something try saying it , but maybe you need the accent to go with it ~:cheers:

[Don Corleone]

Well, fair enough, but you're taking the one issue that Liberal and Conservative (large L & C, local to America) agree on. Both sides pander to Israel over here, and so do both sides of the media. As far as America's concerned, it's not a left/right issue.

And it took me breaking out my cheesy fake brogue, but I get it! ~:cheers:

[LittleGrizzly]

maybe you need the accent to go with it

my dodgy attempt at an accent helped!

[Tribesman]

As far as America's concerned, it's not a left/right issue.
Yes , but it is a very important news/current affairs issue that should be covered .

And it took me breaking out my cheesy fake brogue, but I get it!
There is a TV ad over here at the moment that recieved lots of complaints as well for the same reason , but it is allowed to continue as it "celebrates" the seeing of more Gaelic usage on TV programming . Though a rather crap singer has had his songs banned from the radio stations in the States for his use of the same words , as they cannot see what feiceall means though it does sound rather feicealach when you hear it ~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

I cant believe there are 62 posts in this thread!

This kind of blatant anti-jewish sympathy and Nazi glorification is to be expected from the palastinians.. they are simply a barbaric people.

Now it can be argued as to how they have become so animalistic, but i dont think any civilized, normal person could send their child to blow himself up whilst blowing up other people or support it done by others.

[DisruptorX]

Now it can be argued as to how they have become so animalistic, but i dont think any civilized, normal person could send their child to blow himself up whilst blowing up other people or support it done by others.

~D

The irony.

[Tribesman]

they are simply a barbaric people.
And comments like that mean you operate on exactly the same level as the fool whose "sermon" started this topic . :embarassed:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And comments like that mean you operate on exactly the same level as the fool whose "sermon" started this topic .

Yes you have a poinyt there. He should have said that the Palestinians act or appear as uncivilized. You can deny that they are all you like but its a fact. No other nation I know of in history has sent its children to blow up other children. Their methods are indeed barbaric and uncivilized. Its also true that some of the Israeli responses can be seen in the same manner.

[PanzerJaeger]

And comments like that mean you operate on exactly the same level as the fool whose "sermon" started this topic .

I call it like i see it..

[bmolsson]

Now it can be argued as to how they have become so animalistic, but i dont think any civilized, normal person could send their child to blow himself up whilst blowing up other people or support it done by others.


There will always be parents sending their children in to war for glory and medals. The type of army differs, but the objectives are always the same. I would never recommend my children to participate in any violent action, with or without uniform.......

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There will always be parents sending their children in to war for glory and medals. The type of army differs, but the objectives are always the same. I would never recommend my children to participate in any violent action, with or without uniform.......

Name another today.

[Paul Peru]

I call it like i see it..
That sheikh is probably as mislead and ill informed as you.
You are both just insecure and need to be loved. ~:grouphug:

[PanzerJaeger]

That sheikh is probably as mislead and ill informed as you.

Hehe, you can try to divert the subject by criticizing me all you want but that doesnt excuse the barbaric actions of these people.

Strapping bombs to your child, having her make a propaganda tape to enlist other peoples children, and then sending her to blow up other children is beyond the scope of human cruelty.. or at least it was. :no:

The left and their apologists can excuse this behavior until the sun doesnt shine by bringing up past Israeli wrongs, but an objective view of the situation as it is today clearly shows which side is seeking peace and which is seeking jewish genocide. The facts are there, some just choose not to see them. :shrug:

[Ironside]

The left and their apologists can excuse this behavior until the sun doesnt shine by bringing up past Israeli wrongs, but an objective view of the situation as it is today clearly shows which side is seeking peace and which is seeking jewish genocide. The facts are there, some just choose not to see them.

Let see now, the peace seekers: Most of the Israeli and Palestinian population.
The war-mongerers: The radical, fanatical groups on both sides, that both have considerble power. Both sides are running on more or less on genocide in the end.

I don't see it ~:confused: ~:confused:

[Al Khalifah]

Palaistinian people has the courage to stand unarmed against tanks, armed to the teeth soldiers and throw stones with slings just for the sake of pride, and ready to face concequences. what you expect to praise Israelis?
Unfortunately some Palestinians also attack unarmed civilians.

[Fragony]

Well after all that has happened I don't blaim them for calling Israel a cancer, after all it is spreading and killing them, sounds like an apropiate metaphore to me. What do you guys expect to hear on palestinian tv? Schindler's List? I doubt they would want to see it after they just got kicked out of their houses so that a jew from idunnowhere can claim his ancestral land.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well after all that has happened I don't blaim them for calling Israel a cancer, after all it is spreading and killing them, sounds like an apropiate metaphore to me.

Couldnt the Israelis say the same of the Palestinians and more so?

[Fragony]

Couldnt the Israelis say the same of the Palestinians and more so?

Why, are the palestinians taking Israeli's land?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why, are the palestinians taking Israeli's land?

Well they tried but failed. Thats not what you said though.


Well after all that has happened I don't blaim them for calling Israel a cancer, after all it is spreading and killing them, sounds like an apropiate metaphore to me.

Isnt Palestinian terrorism spreading and killing Israelis? Sounds like an apropiate metaphore to me.

[Fragony]

Well they tried but failed. Thats not what you said though.

Well it was clear that it was going to be a jewish state, which meant that 50% of the population had to go, and Ben Gurion and his buddies didn't make a secret of their intentions of expanding, I wonder why the arabs didn't like that.

Isnt Palestinian terrorism spreading and killing Israelis? Sounds like an apropiate metaphore to me.

If they chose to live on stolen ground they are hardly innocent, if so much human misery is not a moral issue for them, good riddance.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well it was clear that it was going to be a jewish state, which meant that 50% of the population had to go

The fact is the Israelis begged them to stay.


Ben Gurion and his buddies didn't make a secret of their intentions of expanding, I wonder why the arabs didn't like that.

Is that so? How is it they didnt ever start the wars. The arabs always did. If that justifies their action then Israel is certainly justified in occupying all of Palestine as the terrorist groups there not only have stated their intentions of destroying Israel but have put these words into action.


If they chose to live on stolen ground they are hardly innocent, if so much human misery is not a moral issue for them, good riddance.

Stolen from who? Why is it that if the Jews get the land because it was bought from the landowners its theft but when the Israelis were driven from this land that they owned and ruled by the Romans the response is thats the way the cookie crumbles?

[Fragony]

The fact is the Israelis begged them to stay.

If that is the case they sure don't handle rejection very well.


Is that so? How is it they didnt ever start the wars. The arabs always did.

Israel was never attacked, Nasser never crossed the Israel border, when Israel decided to attack him he was allready willing to negotiate a retreat.

Stolen from who? Why is it that if the Jews get the land because it was bought from the landowners its theft but when the Israelis were driven from this land that they owned and ruled by the Romans the response is thats the way the cookie crumbles?

Only small parts came from landowners, most came from the bulldozer.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If that is the case they sure don't handle rejection very well.

I guess not.


Israel was never attacked, Nasser never crossed the Israel border, when Israel decided to attack him he was allready willing to negotiate a retreat.

Ive heard of revisionist history but this takes the cake.


Only small parts came from landowners, most came from the bulldozer.

There was another thread on this matter and it was shown that this statement like most of your others is false.

[Fragony]

Ive heard of revisionist history but this takes the cake.

Allow me to quote Menachim Begin 'In june 1967, we again had a choice. The egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselve. We decided to attack him'.

It was Nasser intention to enforce negotiations, not to attack Israel.

There was another thread on this matter and it was shown that this statement like most of your others is false.

It is? Didn't they 'find out' recently that militant zionists got a cart blanche from the Israel government? It was basicly grab what you can and we follow later. It was something along the lines of 'every hill you take is yours', but a bit more poetic.

[Al Khalifah]

It was Nasser intention to enforce negotiations, not to attack Israel.
That's just wrong. If you believe that, you probably believe that Hitler didn't want to invade France until France declared war.
The Arab nations had spent millions and run-down their own economies with an aim towards destroying Israel. The Israeli pre-emptive strike was the only way Israel could win the war and ensure its own survival.

[Husar]

It was Nasser intention to enforce negotiations, not to attack Israel.


Maybe tanks weren´t the right way to say "Hey, we just want to talk." ~;)

[Fragony]

That's just wrong. If you believe that, you probably believe that Hitler didn't want to invade France until France declared war.
The Arab nations had spent millions and run-down their own economies with an aim towards destroying Israel. The Israeli pre-emptive strike was the only way Israel could win the war and ensure its own survival.

Then what was he doing just sitting there at the border, chilling with his AK? Or could it be that there was some talk going on? If Begin says it himselve I am willing to believe it if you don't mind.

[Beirut]

This kind of blatant anti-jewish sympathy and Nazi glorification is to be expected from the palastinians.. they are simply a barbaric people.


Damn straight they are!

And Jews are greedy bank owners. And Americans are fat, violent rednecks. And Japanese are slitty eyed rice eaters. And blacks are thieves and drug dealers. And Mexicans are dirty and lazy.

Hey this is fun! :balloon2: I never knew racism could be so enjoyable. ~:cheers:

Who's next... Germans are all Nazi scum. Frenchmen are unwashed cowards. Italians are all mafia killers.

Wow, this is addictive. Hmmm, who can I hate next? Any suggestions?

[English assassin]

In (a rather long) answer to Don I've come up with a bit on the delightful settlers. The last link is the longest but very good.

This http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=155 is a jewish site and therefore not a bad place to start, in that presumably it will not overstate the case. No ugly rhetoric here but its clear that what Gush Emunin stands for is not peaceful co-existence (or even democracy)


Rabbi Meir Kahane, soon directed his attention to Israel. Taking a rigid Orthodox position, he condemned the Israeli government for "corrupting Jewish values." He maintained that it was impossible for a state to be both democratic and Jewish. Either Israel was a Jewish state or it was a "Hellenized" democracy.

According to Kahane, God had given all of the Land of Israel to the Jews, the Chosen People, as a divine inheritance. Any objection by the outside world or by Arabs had to be ignored. Any Arab who demonstrated against the Jewish authority should, by Jewish Law, be expelled from the Land of Israel. Quoting the TaNaCH, Kahane emphasized that God requires vengeance against the enemies of Israel and decried the "soft, humanist, Westernized" values shown by Israel's government.

This http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/gush_iceberg.html is an old article but it seems informativve and again avoids name calling. The author was Senior Lecturer in the Department of Political Science, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. It gets a bit academic towards the end, (when he starts going on about iceberg models of political activsim you can stop reading...). But we read:


As noted above, Gush Emunim was established in order to "prevent a new partition of Eretz Israel." The question is therefore, what is the Gush stance on the Arabs and the Palestinian question? Strangely enough, it is hard to find explicit reference to these questions in the publications of the movement. It is only through personal interviews with its leaders that the Gush position on this matter is clarified. It declares essentially that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews by divine command. As an article of faith and an absolute postulate, this has definite and binding implications. The most important of these is that the universal principle of self-determination — even if it may have some relevance in other places — does not hold in the case of Eretz Israel. The "Palestinian Problem" or the demand by the Palestinians for national self-determination is therefore meaningless.

For Gush Emunim the Palestinian question is thus not a problem of a nation but of individuals, and more precisely one of gerim (non-Jewish residents of Eretz Israel who according to the Torah are to be treated by the people of Israel with tolerance and respect but no more).

This http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/polisci/faculty/data/lustick/for_the_land/lustick14.html is long but interesting. We can read:


The implication of chosenness is that the transcendental imperatives to which Jews must respond effectively nullify the moral laws that bind the behavior of normal nations. In "Messianic Realism," and other articles, Aviner considers the relationship between history, politics, and redemption. He argues that divine commandments to the Jewish people "transcend human notions of national rights." He explains that while God requires other, normal nations to abide by abstract codes of "justice and righteousness," such laws do not apply to Jews.

Ours is not an autonomous scale of values, the product of human reason, but rather an heteronomous or, more correctly, theonomous scale rooted in the will of the Divine architect of the universe and its moral order. 7 From the point of view of mankind's humanistic morality we were in the wrong in (taking the land) from the Canaanites. There is only one catch. The command of God ordered us to be the people of the Land of Israel.
Thus does Jewish fundamentalism utterly reject the traditional Zionist image of Jews as a normal people, bound by and rewarded according to the same laws and principles of national self-determination applicable to other nations.


The Meaning of Arab Opposition to Israel. As befits an abnormal nation, the conflicts Israel encounters with its neighbors are not normal either. In their analysis of the Arab conflict with Israel, if not always in their propaganda, most Israeli leaders have sought to explain Arab hostility in practical terms-as a conflict that stems from misperceptions or specific circumstances. Accordingly, as those perceptions and circumstances change, opportunities for ending the conflict can materialize and should be awaited, identified, and exploited.

Gush Emunim views the conflict with the Arabs in a radically different way-as the latest and most crucial episode in Israel's eternal battle to overcome the forces of evil. This stance is illustrated in the words with which Eleazar Waldman-head of the Kiryat Arba Yeshiva, Member of Knesset for the Tehiya party, and prominent student of Rav Tzvi Yehuda-reassured fundamentalist Jews troubled by the outcome of the Lebanon War. By fighting the Arabs, Waldman reminded his audience, Israel carries out its mission to serve "as the heart of the world, in contact with every organ, and with the world understanding that it must receive the blood of life from the heart."

I especially liked the end of this quote, since its a view that has been put forward on these boards:


Jewish fundamentalists' assumptions about the world, however, make it essentially impossible for them to see Jews and Palestinians in comparable terms. Nor can fundamentalists acknowledge any real tie between the Palestinians, or any human group other than the Jewish people, and the Land of Israel. To do so would contradict the prophecy that the Promised Land would "vomit out" any other people that tries to live there, and that only with the return of the Jews would the land again "shoot forth branches, and yield fruit," 11 as a sign of the beginning of the messianic age. Hence, historically unsupportable notions that only under Jewish cultivation did Palestine become a productive country and that most Palestinian Arabs arrived in the area only within the past century are treated as incontrovertible

The Jews are authorized by the living God and creator of the universe as a legitimate, eternal people with unalienable rights to the entire Land of Israel. The Palestinians have absolutely no legitimate claim to nationhood or to any part of the country. They have experienced no real suffering, and have drawn together as an entity only out of opposition to the Jews. Theirs is a "suicidal" struggle for the elimination of the state and people of Israel. As such, Israel must recognize the Palestinians as the most destructive and dangerous emanation of Arab hostility, and stand ready to destroy them as they seek to fulfill their collective "deathwish."

Actually, I really do recommend that last link as very illuminating on the mindset of the settler movement. Its a long read but very good. Its much more constructive than finding some nutter rabbi saying that its OK to shoot arabs because it actually enables some understanding of what these people are about.

[Steppe Merc]

This kind of blatant anti-jewish sympathy and Nazi glorification is to be expected from the palastinians.. they are simply a barbaric people.
No group of people are or were barbaric. Some groups had more people worse than others, but no group of people ever was entirely "barbaric" whatever that means.

And it's sad that in order to fight steryotypes and racism, people resort to stereotypes and racism... :dizzy2:


Wow, this is addictive. Hmmm, who can I hate next? Any suggestions?
Poles are stupid. Russians are a bunch of evil, communist drunks. Muslims are terrorists. Christians are all crazy bible preaching nutjobs.
Any more?
:help:

[Fragony]

Any more?
:help:

Hippies! TEH stoners!

wait, they are

~;)

[Steppe Merc]

~D
Well... alright, can't argue with you on that one. :bow:

[Fragony]

~D
Well... alright, can't argue with you on that one. :bow:

Well 'guilty your honor' myselve ~D Living above a coffeeshop has it's (dis)advantages.

[Steppe Merc]

Oooo... Europe cofee houses... My friend's dream is to go to Amsterdam and vist on of those cofee shops. ~D
And what disadvantages? ~:confused:
~;)

[Fragony]

Oooo... Europe cofee houses... My friend's dream is to go to Amsterdam and vist on of those cofee shops. ~D
And what disadvantages? ~:confused:
~;)

Amsterdam is the last place you should go if you want to have something decent, one big tourist trap. But it is still a good idea to go there, because it is just the coolest city on earth.

[LittleGrizzly]

This kind of blatant anti-jewish sympathy and Nazi glorification is to be expected from the palastinians.. they are simply a barbaric people.

they are a barbaric people just like the british we have our share of racists also they glorify the nazis.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

QUOTE]Allow me to quote Menachim Begin 'In june 1967, we again had a choice. The egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselve. We decided to attack him'.[/QUOTE]

!st off you said Israel was never atttacked. I take that as a bad joke. You then jump to 1967. What about all the years before that. You might like to start in 1948. Learn a bit of history before making such absurd remarks as Israel was never attacked. Even in 1967 they were being shelled from the otherside of the border but that I guess soesnt count as no troops crossed the border. I believe they also closed the waterways leading to Isreal and said that they were going to crush Isreal. You however say that because Begin said he was an expansionist the arabs had the right to attack Israel. I see a bit of hypocracy here.

[Fragony]

Oh you mean the massacre on civilians (ooops) I mean war of 1948. Sharon didn't mention Quitya for nothing, along with the marks that 'the palestinians should remember 1948' No, Israel was never attacked. They did got shelled from the totally absolete artillery on the Gholan hights, well that is hardly war is it.

[Redleg]

Come on now Fragony what you just stated is not true.


First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948
Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.

The Arabs concentrated their efforts on cutting off roads to Jewish towns and Jewish neighborhoods in areas with mixed populations. They also massacred several Jewish convoys. At the end of March, the Arabs completely cut off the vital road going from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem where one sixth of Palestine's Jews lived.

The Haganah armed itself with arms bought from Czechoslovakia. The Yishuv began working on a plan called Plan Dalet (or Plan D).

[edit]
Second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948
Jewish forces proved to be militarily stronger than the Arabs expected, and by May their forces were counterattacking Arab towns and villages, especially those controlling roads to isolated Jewish populations.

The road to Jerusalem was interdicted by Arab fighters located in the villages surrounding the road. The city of Jerusalem was under siege by the Arabs. Numerous convoys of trucks bringing food and other supplies to the besieged city were attacked. In Operation Nachshon, the Haganah continued its attacks on Arab fighters co-located with civilians, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem (April 20).

Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. Four days later, on April 13, the Arabs launched a retaliatory strike on a medical convoy traveling to Hadassah Hospital. Around 77 doctors, nurses, and other Jewish civilians were massacred.

To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II), a make-shift winding road through the difficult mountains to Jerusalem. The Burma Road allowed the Jewish forces to relieve the Arab siege on June 9, just days before the United Nations negotiated a cease-fire. [1] (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php)

Meanwhile, frantic diplomatic activity took place between all parties. On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Yishuv leadership only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Jewish leadership. Nevertheless, the Transjordanian army refrained from attacking the designated Jewish areas of Palestine in the ensuing war.

On May 13, the Arab League met and agreed to send regular troops into Palestine when the Mandate expired. Abdullah of Transjordan was named as the commander-in-chief of the Arab armies, but the various Arab armies remained largely uncoordinated throughout the war.

[edit]
Third phase: May 15, 1948 - June 11, 1948
On May 14, the British Mandate expired. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.

Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 6,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 5,500 Egyptian, 6,000-9,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.

On May 26, 1948, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) was officially established and the Haganah, Palmach and Etzel were dissolved into the army of the young Jewish state.

However, on paper, the Arabs had clear superiority in heavy arms and firepower. The ordnance on May 15 were as follows:

IDF Arabs
Tanks 1 w/o gun 40
Armored cars (w/ cannon) 2 200
Armored cars (w/o cannon) 120 300
Artillery 5 140
AA and AT guns 24 220
Warplanes 0 74
Scout planes 28 57
Navy (armed ships) 3 12

(Source: Yeuda Wallach, "Not on a silver plate")


Jordanian artillery shells Jerusalem in 1948.In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.

Therefore, the first mission of the IDF was to hold on against the Arab armies and stop them from destroying major Jewish settlements, until reinforcements and weapons arrived.


General John Glubb commanded the Arab Legion (1939-1956)The heaviest fighting would occur in Jerusalem and on the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv road, between Transjordan's Arab Legion and the Israeli forces. Abdullah ordered Glubb Pasha, the commander of the Transjordanian Arab Legion, to enter Jerusalem on May 17, and heavy house-to-house fighting occurred between May 19 and May 28, with the Arab Legion succeeding in expelling Israeli forces from the Arab quarters of Jerusalem as well as the Jewish quarter of the old city. Iraqi troops failed in attacks on Jewish settlements (the most notable battle was on Mishmar Haemek), and instead took defensive positions around Jenin, Nablus, and Tulkarm.

In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.

During the following months, the Syrian army was repelled, and so were the Palestinian irregulars and the ALA.

In the south, an Egyptian attack was able to penetrate the defenses of several Israeli kibbutzim, but with heavy cost. This attack was stopped near Ashdod.

The Israeli military managed not only to maintain their military control of the Jewish territories, but to expand their holdings.


A little long - but lets at least tell the historical truth.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_War_of_Independence

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh you mean the massacre on civilians (ooops) I mean war of 1948.

Your antii semitism is showing through. Your rightt Isreal attacked the 6 arab nations the day it was born trying to take over the middle east. Get real.


They did got shelled from the totally absolete artillery on the Gholan hights, well that is hardly war is it.

Id Mexico started shelling the US with what you call totally obsolete artillery what do you think we would do? I guess old artillery doesnt kill people. Shelling another nation maybe seen as an act of war by some dont you think?

[Fragony]

In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.

Ya, very true indeed ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you trying to make a point? If so what?

[Fragony]

Your antii semitism is showing through.

so?


Your rightt Isreal attacked the 6 arab nations the day it was born trying to take over the middle east. Get real.

Sounds about as far fetched as the alternative, especially with light armed settlers and molotov cocktails.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Sounds about as far fetched as the alternative, especially with light armed settlers and molotov cocktails.

Maybe you better check your post. The settlers were jewish. Its they who were fighting tanks with molotov coctails and antiquated artillery not the arabs. Gah!!!!!!

[Redleg]

In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.

Ya, very true indeed ~D

LOL - then you must be in denial about the facts of what happened. Several sources can by found that mention that Israel was attacked by the Arab league. Wikipedia is not always the best source of information - but it is generally been accepted on this forum by others as being somewhat accurate in its information.

I don't often believe the details in Wikipedia - but it does often show the general information correctly.

Are you trying to deny that the Arab League invaded Israel in 1948?

[Fragony]

Maybe you better check your post. The settlers were jewish. Its they who were fighting tanks with molotov coctails and antiquated artillery not the arabs. Gah!!!!!!

They were? Oh damn back to school. So it were the settlers that fought back a coalition of 6 arab nations with light arms and molotov cocktails that ultimatily prevailed. Those arab nations that never made a step on Israeli soil, why do we need that JSF after all.

[Fragony]

Are you trying to deny that the Arab League invaded Israel in 1948?

Yup, pretty much so. Could you show me on the map where they crossed the border?

[Redleg]

THen Fragony there is this one.


When Israel achieved its independence on May 14, 1948, the Haganah became the de facto Israeli army. On that day, the country was invaded by the regular forces of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria. Eleven days later, Israel's provisional government issued an order that provided the legal framework for the country's armed forces. The order established the official name Zvah Haganah Le Yisrael and outlawed the existence of any other military force within Israel.

The dissident Irgun and Stern Gang were reluctant to disband. Fighting between Irgun and regular military forces broke out on June 21 when the supply ship Altalena arrived at Tel Aviv with 900 men and a load of arms and ammunition for the Irgun. The army sank the ship, destroying the arms, and many members of the Irgun were arrested; both organizations disbanded shortly thereafter. A more delicate problem was how to disband the Palmach, which had become an elite military unit within the Haganah and had strong political ties to the socialist-oriented kibbutzim. Nonetheless, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister and minister of defense, was determined to see the IDF develop into a single, professional, and nonpolitical national armed force. It was only through his skill and determination that the Palmach was peacefully abolished and integrated into the IDF in January 1949.

The ranks of the IDF swelled rapidly to about 100,000 at the height of the War of Independence. Nearly all able-bodied men, plus many women, were recruited; thousands of foreign volunteers, mostly veterans of World War II, also came to the aid of Israel. The newly independent state rapidly mobilized to meet the Arab invaders; by July 1948, the Israelis had set up an air force, a navy, and a tank battalion. Weapons and ammunition were procured abroad, primarily from Czechoslovakia. Three B-17 bombers were bought in the United States through black market channels, and shortly after one of them bombed Cairo in July 1948, the Israelis were able to establish air supremacy. Subsequent victories came in rapid succession on all three fronts. The Arab states negotiated separate armistice agreements. Egypt was the first to sign (February 1949), followed by Lebanon (March), Transjordan (April), and finally Syria (July). Iraq simply withdrew its forces without signing an agreement. As a result of the war, Israel considerably expanded its territory beyond the United Nations (UN) partition plan for Palestine at the expense of its Arab neighbors. Victory cost more than 6,000 Israeli lives, however, which represented approximately 1 percent of the population. After the armistice, wartime recruits were rapidly demobilized, and the hastily raised IDF, still lacking a permanent institutional basis, experienced mass resignations from its war-weary officer corps. This process underscored the basic manpower problem of a small population faced with the need to mobilize a sizable army during a wartime emergency. In 1949, after study of the Swiss reservist system, Israel introduced a three-tiered system based on a small standing officer corps, universal conscription, and a large pool of well-trained reservists that could be rapidly mobilized.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm


From mid-May to mid-July, the critical phase of the war, came the simultaneous, coordinated assault on the new State of Israel by five regular Arab armies from neighboring countries. From the north, east and south came the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan, and Egypt. The invading forces were fully equipped with the standard weapons of a regular army of the time - artillery, tanks, armored cars and personnel carriers, in addition to machine guns, mortars and the usual small arms in great quantities, and full supplies of ammunition, oil, and gasoline. Further, Egypt, Iraq, and Syria had air forces. As sovereign states, they had no difficulty in securing whatever armaments they needed through normal channels from Britain and other friendly powers. The pre-State Jewish forces, on the contrary, had been prevented from acquiring arms by the British and so had no matching artillery, no tanks, and no warplanes in the first days of the war.


http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php

[Fragony]

You mean the land Israel declared as theirs, I am talking about the borders that were set by england when Israel became independant.

[Redleg]

Yup, pretty much so. Could you show me on the map where they crossed the border?

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/invade.html

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/images/invade.jpg

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Like I said his remarks take the cake as far revisionist history goes.

[Fragony]

Close, except for the libanon one.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Huh? ~:confused:

[Redleg]

Close, except for the libanon one.

Like I said the evidence is out there that shows adequately that the Arab League attacked Israel in 1948 - without warning and with the intent to destroy the new country of Israel. Are you still denying that historical fact?

[Fragony]

Like I said the evidence is out there that shows adequately that the Arab League attacked Israel in 1948 - without warning and with the intent to destroy the new country of Israel. Are you still denying that historical fact?

That northern part I have not seen before, I must admit to that.

edit, looking at the map, and that part does not show.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Boy you are stubborn. So you still deny it or not? Next you wil be telling us the holocaust never happened. What was your point before? That you dont believe that the Israeis could beat the arabs with antiquated weapons? Your all over the place. First you claim the arabs used antiquated weapons then post an article that says the Israelis were using them ~:confused:

[Redleg]

January 1948 Arab Salvation Army (also called Arab Liberation Army - ALA) are admitted to Palestine by the British, following a promise not to attack Jewish settlements. Their leader, Fauzi Al-Kaukji may have entered Palestine only in March. Jewish Agency concludes arms deal with Czechoslovakia, but most arms do not arrive until June 1948, after the British have left. The UN, including the US, had placed an arms embargo on Palestine. This did not apply to Arab countries including Transjordan. As independent states, they were allowed to acquire arms. The Jordan Legion received a steady supply of arms from Britain through the Suez Canal, at least until May 1948. Hagana agents purchased 20 Auster light aircraft in Britain, sold for scrap, rebuilt them and brought them to Palestine for use of the Haganah. Haganah later rebuilt Spitfires left by the mandate for scrap as well, but did not have real fighter and bomber aircraft until May 1948 or, when Czech Messerschmidts and B-17s purchased clandestinely were brought into the country.
Feb. 1948 Anti-British riots in Baghdad against new British-Iraq treaty bring down pro-Brish government.
Mar. 1946 Provision Jewish government formed in Tel-Aviv. Convoy to Gush Etzion ambushed in Nebi Daniel. Arabs begin to flee Haifa.
April 6-8, 1948 Arab blockade of Jerusalem is broken temporarily by operation Nachshon. Death of Abd-El-Qader Al-Husseini at Kastel - The foremost Palestinian military leader is shot by a Jewish sentry when he wanders into Jewish held Kastel in the Jerusalem corridor thinking it is in Arab hands.
April 9, 1948 Deir Yassin Massacre - Jewish dissident underground groups - Irgun and Lehi kill over 100 Palestinian civilians in the Jerusalem village of Deir Yassin.
April 13, 1948 Haddassah Convoy Massacre - In retaliation for Deir Yassin, Arabs killed Jewish medical personnel and sick persons on their way to Hadassah hospital.
April 13-20, 1948 Operation Har'el launched by Hagannah at conclusion of Operation Nachshon, does not succeed in opening the road to Jerusalem.
April 1948 Arab flight from Haifa continues; Arab flight from Jaffa.
April 22-31 1948 Operation Misparayim launched by Hagannah to assume control of Haifa after British withdrawal and attacks by Arab forces and Irgun.
May 14, 1948 Gush Etzion Massacre - In retaliation for Deir Yassin Massacre, Arabs killed over 50 Jewish defenders at Gush Etzion, after they had surrendered.
May 12, 1948 Haganah captures Tsfat (Safed). Arab population flees the city before it is captured.
May 13, 1948 Jaffa surrenders to Haganah.
May 14, 1948 Gush Etzion Massacre - In retaliation for Deir Yassin Massacre, Arabs killed over 50 Jewish defenders at Gush Etzion, after they had surrendered. British High Commissioner Cunningham leaves Palestine.
May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State, recognized immediately by USA and on May 17 by USSR. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began
May 17, 1948 Haganah captures Acco (Acre). Most of the Arab population flees the city before it is captured.
May 18, 1948 Syrian army captures Massada and Merom Hagolan.
May 28, 1948 Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem falls to the Jordan Legion. The inhabitants were protected from the wrath of a lynch mob by the Legion under Abdullah Tell, and noncombatants were expelled to West Jerusalem. About 300 Haganah defenders were taken prisoner and sent to Jordan. The entire quarter including 58 of the 59 synagogues was demolished by the Arab mob despite efforts of the Legion.
June 11, 1948 First truce begins, lasting until 8 July.
June 23, 1948 Irgun’s Altalena ship brings weapons and 940 immigrants to Palestine. The arms shipment was a violation of UN embargo, but Israel government agreed to it, provided the Irgun handed over the weapons to IDF and formed a unified force. Irgun Commander Menahem Begin refused to hand over weapons and Irgun insisted on keeping a portion of the arms for its own use as a separate force. Palmach units of IDF under Yigal Allon attempted to capture weapons by force, killing 14 Irgun men. Yizhak Rabin, in command of shore batteries in Tel-Aviv, was ordered to fire upon and sink the Altalena after it attempted a landing there. According to some reports, factions of the Irgun (Etzel) were planning a coup with the arms.
June, 28, 1948 Count Folke Bernadotte's first peace plan - Jerusalem to be Arab.
July 08, 1948 Egyptian army breaks truce, due to end July 9. Attacks from neighborhood of Majdal (Ashdod). Israeli counterattack at Faluja was unsuccessful. This phase of the war is known as "the ten days," and included Mivtza Dani - the Israeli conquest of Lydda (Lod) and Ramla, breaking the Arab siege of Jerusalem, and creating thousands of refugees, as well as advances in the north. During this time Israel had acquired three B-17s and some Dakotas. One of the B-17s succeeded in dropping some bombs on Cairo on its way to delivery in Israel, others bombed Damascus and Rafa.
July 10, 1948 Arab League announced the establishment of a temporary Palestinian civilian administration over Arab held-areas of Palestine, but it was never implemented.
July 12, 1948 Egyptians attack Kibbutz Negba with armor and massive troop concentrations. Israelis suffer 5 dead, 16 wounded, Egyptian casualties 200- 300 dead and wounded.
July 19, 1948 Second truce in Palestine.
Sept 17, 1948 Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte, a UN mediator, was assassinated in Jerusalem, and Lehi members were suspected. The Israel government outlawed the organization's branch in Jerusalem and shut down its publication, Hamivrak. The leaders of Lehi, Natan Yellin-Mor and Mattityahu Shmuelevitz, were sentenced to long jail terms by a military court, but were released in a general amnesty. Bernadotte, who had been instrumental in saving about 21,000 Jews in WW II, was proposing to "relieve" Israel of the Negev and force return of the Palestinian refugees. The latter proposal was adopted in UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
Sept 22, 1948 Palestinian States - AHC communiqué announces the establishment of the Government of All Palestine (APG; Hukumat 'Umum Filastin); Declaration of Independence proclaimed by Hajj Amin to Palestine National Council in Gaza (30Sept-1Oct) on 1Oct, with Hajj Amin as President of the PNC, Ahmad Hilmi ‘Abd al-Baqi as PM, Jamal al-Husayni as Foreign Minister, in the Mandate territory of Palestine, with the flag of the 1916 Arab Revolt. Jerusalem as capital, Gaza as seat of government. Recognized and sponsored by Egypt and Arab League, who sought to forestall ‘Abdullah’s plan to annex West Bank; strongly opposed by Jordan, who organized a much larger rival Palestinian Congress in Amman on 30Sept to support Jordan’s policy in Palestine. APG issued Palestinian passports; but with Egyptian disillusionment, HQ transferred to Cairo in Oct, Hajj Amin was confined to Cairo and is & actions curtailed; many leading members left to work for Amman. Ahmad Hilmi continued to represent Palestine in the League until his death in September 63.
Oct. 15, 1948 Second truce ends; Israeli offensive breaks Egyptian siege of Israeli settlements in the Negev (operation Yoav). Beersheva is taken. In the north, operation Hiram defeats the Arab Liberation army. IDF massacres in Eilabun, Saliba, Safsaf, Jish, Hule, Majd el-Krum, Bi'na, Dier el assad and Arab al-Mawassa.
Dec. 11, 1948 UN Resolution 194 called for cessation of hostilities, return of refugees who wish to live in peace. The resolution reflected UN and US anger over the assassination of Count Bernadotte.
Dec. 1948 Israelis advance into Egypt; Nokrashy Pasha, Egyptian PM, assassinated.
Dec 19, 1948- Jan 7, 49 Israeli Operation Horev conquers Gaza and enters Sinai. Intervention by British and US forces Israel to withdraw. Israel shot down several British reconnaissance planes, apparently unarmed (four Spitfires and one Tempest) January 7, 1949.
March 7-10, 1949 Operation Uvda - IDF captures southern Negev including Eilat with no resistance.
Feb-Jun, 1949 Israel and Arab states agree to armistice in separate agreements. Israel-Egypt Israel -Lebanon Israel-Jordan Israel-Syria) Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan. The war created about 780,000 Palestinian refugees who fled or were evicted from Jewish held areas. Gaza fell under the jurisdiction of Egypt. The West Bank of the Jordan was occupied by Jordan and later annexed, consistent with secret agreements with the Jewish leadership made before the outbreak of hostilities.


http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm

Edit: I highlighted a few choice items for the discussion - to include to show that both sides committed actions that would be considered war crimes

[Fragony]

So you still deny it or not?

Unsure, The north of the map is new to me. I'll just admit wrong for now, I'll look into it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well it seems were making slight proggress at least here. ~:)
Try this out for size



The Peace Encyclopedia:
The War of Independence, 1948
Frequently Asked Questions:

* What was Israel's War of Independence? Independence from whom?
* Weren't both sides responsible for that war?
* How did so many Arabs become refugees?
* How many Arabs fled?
* What right did Israel have to declare itself a state anyway?
* Why did Israel take territories which were designated to become part of a Palestinian Arab state?
* We hear alot about the Arab refugees of that war - were there any Jewish refugees? Why don't we hear about them?
* What is the relationship between Naziism and the Arab attitude toward Israel?

What was Israel's War of Independence? Independence from whom?

* On May 14, 1948, against all the odds, the modern state of Israel was reborn. At four o'clock that afternoon the members of the provisional national council, led by David Ben-Gurion, met in the Tel Aviv Art Museum. Ben-Gurion rose and read the following proclamation to the assembled guests:

The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here there spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world.

Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained, faithful to it in all countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and the restoration of their national freedom. . .

Accordingly we, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assemble today, the day of the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people and the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations, hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL . . .

With trust in Almighty God, we set out hand to this declaration, at this session of the Provisional State Council, in the city of Tel Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the fifth year of Iyar, 5708, the fourteenth day of May, 1948.

* The key to this question is reflected In the behavior Of the British In 1947. When, in that year, the Arabs rejected the partition of Palestine and refused to set up the projected Arab state, the British administration, then still governing Palestine under the Mandate, refused to carry out the recommendations of the United Nations to implement the partition plan. The British government made it plain that it would do all in its power to prevent the birth of the Jewish state. Britain announced that she would not -- and indeed, she did not -- carry out the orderly transfer of any functions to the Jewish authorities in the Interim before the end of the Mandate on May 15, 1948. Everything was left In a state of disorder. This was Britain's first contribution to the burden of the nascent state.

When, immediately after the United Nations Assembly decision, the Palestine Arabs launched their preliminary onslaught on the Jewish community, the Britlsh Army gave them considerable cover and aid. It obstructed Jewish defense on the ground; it blocked the movement of Jewish reinforcements and supplies to outlying settlements; it opened the land frontiers for the entry of Arab soldiers from the neighboring Arab states; it maintained a blockade in the Mediterranean and sealed the coast and ports through which alone the outnumbered Jews could expect reinforcements; it handed over arms dumps to the Arabs. When Jaffa was on the point of falling to a Jewish counterattack, it sent in forces from Malta to bomb and shell the Jewish force. Meanwhile, it continued to supply the Arab states preparing to invade across the borders with all the they asked for and made no secret of it.
- Samuel Katz, Battleground: Fact and fantasy in Palestine

* In 1948, after the UN voted to give Israel statehood, Jordan and 6 other Arab countries invaded the reborn Jewish homeland, despite the fact that those Arab states were not directly affected by Israel's rebirth. The stated purpose of this invasion was to "push the Jews into the sea", i.e. genocide. What Hitler didn't finish three years earlier, the Arabs would finish once and for all. This is not mere speculation; the Arabs of the former British Mandate of Palestine were led by a Nazi collaborator, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who was up for charges at Nuremberg before escaping in 1946. Entire books have been written on how al-Husseini actively supported Hitler's aim to exterminate the Jews in WWII.

The Jews were able to secure weapons from one country only: Czechoslovakia. And through one of the greatest miracles of modern times, and a testimony to the will to survive, tiny Israel was not only able to survive intact - she was also able to capture territory from which the Arab aggressors attacked; this is the penalty for waging war (and losing), and it always has been. Unfortunately, both Jordan and Egypt were able to expand their territories; Jordan captured what is now refered to as the "West Bank" (their original Jewish names are Judea and Samaria) including the Jewish eastern half of Jerusalem (now known as "Arab East Jerusalem"), and Egypt captured what is now known as the Gaza Strip - both countries murdered and expelled EVERY Jew who was living there at the time. During the 19 years that Jordan and Egypt occupied those territories (now know collectively as the "Occupied Territories"), neither country thought to create independent states for the remaining Arabs (now known collectively as the "Palestinians") residing in those territories. Instead, those regions were plundered and allowed to rot; Jewish graves were desecrated and the gravestones were used to pave roads and build latrines, the Jewish homes were given to Arabs and mezzuzahs in the doorposts were either ripped out or just painted over (evidence of such can be found even today in "Arab East Jerusalem").

Another Antisemitic reprocussion of Israel's rebirth was that most of the Arab Muslim countries of the Middle East expelled EVERY single Jew living there and confiscated all their assets. Most of these Jewish refugees went to Israel, and in just a few years doubled Israel's population. Incidentally, the number of Jewish refugees and their posessions greatly outnumbers any claims by Arab refugees of the 1948 war. The next great miracle was the speed in which the primarily Ashkenazi Jews of Israel absorbed an equal number of their Arabic-speaking bretheren into society. By comparison, displaced Arabs were forced into refugee camps by their Arab bretheren and most remained there throughout the 19 years of Arab occupation. And contrary to popular belief, there was not a policy of expulsion of Arabs from Israel; if so it was not very successful, as 14% (and climbing) of Israels citizens are Arabs.


Weren't both sides responsible for that war?

* "We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building-up of the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and representation in all its ... institutions.

"We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and goodwill, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land."

- David Ben-Gurion in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, May 14, 1948

* How did protracted warfare first arise between Israel and the Arabs?. Not even militant Arab leaders or anti-Zionist historians could conceivably accept the view that the 1948-49 conflict was a war of Jewish origin. On February 16, 1948, the UN Palestine Commission reported to the Security Council: "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." The Arabs themselves were unambiguous in accepting responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini informed the Security Council on April 16, 1948: "The representatives of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." As for the British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb, he remarked candidly: "Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman....They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine." Israel came into being on May 14, 1948. The five Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq immediately invaded the new microstate. Their combined intention was expressed publicly by Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University

* Damascus radio called on all Arabs to "undertake the liberation battle that will tear the hearts from the bodies of the hatefull jews and trample them in the dust" - quoted in TIME, June 2, p. 20

* "the surviving Jews would be helped to return to their native countries, but my estimation is that none will survive"

- Ahmed Shuqeiri (later to be PLO chief) quoted in Churchill and Churchill, p. 52

* "We were racists, admiring Nazism, reading its books and the source of its thought... Whoever lived during this period in Damascus would appreciate the inclination of the Arab people to Nazism, for Nazism was the power which could serve as its champion, and who is defeated will by nature love the victor".

- Sami al Jundi, leader of Syrian Baath party, "Al Baath" Beirut, 1961. From B. Lewis, "Semites and Anti-Semites" pp.147-148.

* "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacare which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacares and the crusades"

Arab Leugue Secretary General Azam Pasha, May 15, 1948 (quoted in "New Dimensions" Jan. '91).


How did so many Arabs become refugees?

* See Refugees


How many Arabs fled?

* See Refugees


What right did Israel have to declare itself a state anyway?

* See Zionism


Why did Israel take territories which were designated to become part of a Palestinian Arab state?

* See Palestine


We hear alot about the Arab refugees of that war - were there any Jewish refugees? Why don't we hear about them?

* See Refugees

[Fragony]

Me wrong you right.

Too much with my head in 1968.

[Redleg]

Unsure, The north of the map is new to me. I'll just admit wrong for now, I'll look into it.

Not trying to change your politicial opinion about the Israeli-Palenstine conflict - since I think both sides are equally at fault. However I do at least try to keep myself informed of historical facts - and as you can see I use multiple sources to demonstrate those facts. Every site both Arab baised and Israeli baised that I have ever visited, every book I have ever read on the subject - all point out that in 1948 the Arab League invaded Israel in an attempt to destroy the state of Israel.

Edit: Yes the 1967-1968 war is slightly different - and is the root of the problem concerning the occupied areas.

[Fragony]

Not trying to change your politicial opinion about the Israeli-Palenstine conflict - since I think both sides are equally at fault. However I do at least try to keep myself informed of historical facts - and as you can see I use multiple sources to demonstrate those facts. Every site both Arab baised and Israeli baised that I have ever visited, every book I have ever read on the subject - all point out that in 1948 the Arab League invaded Israel in an attempt to destroy the state of Israel.

No need to be polite, I got my facts screwed up. Mixing up 2 conflicts.

[Redleg]

No need to be polite, I got my facts screwed up. Mixing up 2 conflicts.

Naw I normally try to be polite in honest discussions - yours was an honest discussion without making personal accusations and comments.

Now the 1967 war was indeed a lot different and can be viewed as an act of Israeli agression - especially against Egypt. Not so sure about the other particpants however.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Now the 1967 war was indeed a lot different and can be viewed as an act of Israeli agression - especially against Egypt. Not so sure about the other particpants however.

The key words here being ' Can Be Viewed' ~:)

[Tribesman]

Now the 1967 war was indeed a lot different and can be viewed as an act of Israeli agression
What about the war of '56 , was that also an act of agression by the Israelis ~;)

The key words here being ' Can Be Viewed'
If you attack someone you are the aggressor , or is there another way to interpret it ?

[Redleg]

Now the 1967 war was indeed a lot different and can be viewed as an act of Israeli agression
What about the war of '56 , was that also an act of agression by the Israelis ~;)



the '56 war would require me to do some quick research - since I do not know much about that one.



The key words here being ' Can Be Viewed'
If you attack someone you are the aggressor , or is there another way to interpret it ?

I say can be because Israel attacked Egypt which was massing in the Eygptian terrority that bordered Israel - Israel decided to attack the massed Egyptian forces before they attacked Israel. Why the Egyptian troops were there in the first place is open to one's opinion - my belief is that they were massing to attack into Israel.

Then one must review and evaluate the actions of other nations that were involved in the conflict. For instance Jordan shelled Israel - after Israel attacked Egypt. Was this an act of aggression by Jordan - or were they aiding their ally Egypt against Israel. If one believes Egypt was massing forces along the Egyptian-Israel border for an attack - one can conclude a different opinion then the person who believes Egypt's massing of forces along the border was nothing but a show of force.

However since I am now at work - I will have to refrain from futher historical research to reach the actual truth of what happened.

However ask yourself this question and answer it honestly.

Why does one nation mass military might along the border of another nation?

[Spetulhu]

However ask yourself this question and answer it honestly.

Why does one nation mass military might along the border of another nation?

Preparation for an attack?
As a threat?
Showing the neighbor how many tanks and men you can bring up?

One should at least follow tradition when starting wars. Send a few men over the border to shoot at friendly positions from the other side, then attack as an answer to this unprovoked enemy aggression. ~;)

[Paul Peru]

Preparation for an attack?
As a threat?
Showing the neighbor how many tanks and men you can bring up?
Quite common during the cold war...
Russia deployed heaps of tanks and stuff at the Norwegian border on a few occations.

Anyway, Egypt marched up to Israel and said "do you feel lucky". '
Israel decided they felt lucky, and of course they were.
After all their tribal deity had said stuff about such situations.

[Paul Peru]

Hey this is fun! :balloon2: I never knew racism could be so enjoyable. ~:cheers:

Who's next... Germans are all Nazi scum. Frenchmen are unwashed cowards. Italians are all mafia killers.

Wow, this is addictive. Hmmm, who can I hate next? Any suggestions?
You forgot the :furious3: Canadian tree-huggers! ~;)
And the bloodthirsty sea-mammal killing Norwegians...

[PanzerJaeger]

Hey this is fun! I never knew racism could be so enjoyable.


No group of people are or were barbaric. Some groups had more people worse than others, but no group of people ever was entirely "barbaric" whatever that means.

And it's sad that in order to fight steryotypes and racism, people resort to stereotypes and racism...

Exactly how was anything I said racist? Of course you wouldn't be playing the race card to divert attention from the truth now would you? Well that does sound awfully like what the palestinians have been doing so I suppose i cant put it above their apologists. .

Now then - to the truth.

Over the course of human history there have been groups of people far, FAR more oppressed than the palestinians, if you even want to call rejecting peace and a nation of their own being "oppressed". ~:rolleyes:

No other group that I know of has responded to their misfortune in such a horrible, despicable way as the palestinians.

What is human about sending your own child to die? I cannot even comprehend how a human being could be so completely evil as to that. Now i try not to use evil much because its been so over used, but i cant think of a better word to describe the palestinians who do this and the society they live in that accepts, rewards, and continues this process.

I've said it once and ill say it again: Sending your child to blow herself up while blowing other children up after first making a video to encourage other children to do the same is so cowardly and so disgusting i have a hard time classifying such people as human beings.

And what makes this not just an individual evil is the society that supports it. Everyone is out on the streets celebrating the death of another child.. its horrible. It may be just 10% who actually would send their child to die but the other 90% are out on the street glorifying the action.

Now of course the Israelis haven't been as good the palestinians as they should have(although they did give away their own state at camp david), but there have been so many other people in such worse conditions that didn't turn to acts of inhumanity regarding their own children.

That is why I said what im apparently not allowed to say anymore. Race has no part in it and i dont appreciate you trying to use such a shallow debate tool.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

# Israel did indeed simultaneously attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967. It had little choice. For weeks leading up to that day, Israel's Arab enemies upped the temperature by amassing troops on the borders of the tiny Jewish state, while threatening murder and mayhem. Consider the following:

May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in 1957 as an international "guarantee" of safety for Israel--from the Sinai peninsula. The UN meekly obeys; the United States and Britain fail to rouse the Security Council to take action.

May 15: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks roll into the Sinai. World community does nothing.

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

June 10: Israel and its enemies accepted UN Security Council cease-fire demands. The war ended, leaving Israel in control of the Sinai peninsula, eastern Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Judea-Samaria and the Gaza Strip. (The Sinai was returned to Egypt between 1978 and 1982, as part of an Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty.)

#

"Never in human history can an aggressor have made his purpose known in advance so clearly and so widely. Certain of victory, both the Arab leaders and their peoples threw off all restraint. Between the middle of May and fifth of June, world-wide newspapers, radio and, most incisively, television brought home to millions of people the threat of politicide bandied about with relish by the leaders of these modern states. Even more blatant was the exhilaration which the Arabic peoples displayed as the prospect of executing genocide on the people of Israel ... In those three weeks of mounting tension people throughout the world watched and waited in growing anxiety--or in some cases, in hopeful expectation--for the overwhelming forces of at least Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to bear down from three sides to crush tiny Israel and slaughter her people."

- Samuel Katz, Battleground: Fact and fantasy in Palestine

Its not as simple as some would have you believe.

[Ser Clegane]

It may be just 10% who actually would send their child to die but the other 90% are out on the street glorifying the action.


I wonder were you pull these "statistics" from... ~:confused:

[Byzantine Prince]

I wonder were you pull these "statistics" from...
His behind.

Ser Clegane, mein fuhrer ~D , this discussion is getting a little of hand isn't it? I mean technically Panzer is stereotyping all Palestinians as being bloodthirsty, terrorist supporters, if I'm not mistaken.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Better watch yourself Panzer we all know of BPs anal fixation. ~:)

[LittleGrizzly]

This kind of blatant anti-jewish sympathy and Nazi glorification is to be expected from the palastinians.. they are simply a barbaric people.

Palestines are simply a barbaric people sounds pretty racist, IMO

if you said the people who send kids out there to blow themselves up are barbaric i would agree though.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Palestines are simply a barbaric people sounds pretty racist, IMO

Palestinians are not a race Muhahaha ~D

[LittleGrizzly]

Palestinians are not a race Muhahaha

ok anti-palestinian then, i just think of anti-nation sentiments like racism...

[Beirut]

Exactly how was anything I said racist? Of course you wouldn't be playing the race card to divert attention from the truth now would you? Well that does sound awfully like what the palestinians have been doing so I suppose i cant put it above their apologists.

It was you, sir, who played the race card by calling an indentifiable group of people "barbaric" and "animalistic". I'm sorry if you find that uncomfortable, but it is what it is.


And what makes this not just an individual evil is the society that supports it. Everyone is out on the streets celebrating the death of another child.. its horrible. It may be just 10% who actually would send their child to die but the other 90% are out on the street glorifying the action.

Are you really implying that well over 100,000 Palestinians would send their kids off with explosives strapped to them? I would love to see where you get those figures. And if they are so willing to do it, as you say, why haven't they?


That is why I said what im apparently not allowed to say anymore. Race has no part in it and i dont appreciate you trying to use such a shallow debate tool.

I think it might be more meanignful if you simply admitted to making a bad statement instead of getting all huffy and defensive with those who saw it for what it was and called you on it. If someone here wrote that the Jews were "barbaric and animalistic", how would you react?

[Papewaio]

To be precise humans are a single race.

No one calls a brown horse a different race to a white horse now do they?

[Byzantine Prince]

To be precise humans are a single race.

No one calls a brown horse a different race to a white horse now do they?
That is the color of their fur, not their skin. And you call yourself a scientist?

[Papewaio]

That is the color of their fur, not their skin. And you call yourself a scientist?

So a red head is a different race to a blonde?

BTW look up the scientists definition of a race...

[Byzantine Prince]

Race is a social structure not a scientific one. That much is true.
People still use the word racist though, because it accurately describes someone who is prejuduced of others because of their ethnic background.


And yes being prejuduced against palestinians and stereotyping them IS in fact racism.

[Papewaio]

Race also has a scientific definition not just a common usage one.

The rough definition of a single race is anything that can breed fertile children. So as any two healthy adult humans of the human sex can have children regardless of skin, eye, hair colour they are in fact a single race.

[AntiochusIII]

Therefore, can we go to a common definition that the two "race" are two different things?

[Beirut]

That is why I said what im apparently not allowed to say anymore. Race has no part in it and i dont appreciate you trying to use such a shallow debate tool.

If I may import a quote of yours from the other Palestine/Isreal thread;




I have little sympathy for Israel and even less for the animals that currently co-habitate that area...

Add this to what you wrote in this thread and I think it's we who should not appreciate you debating using such shallow language. You have established a clear pattern of attrocious and outlandish racial accusations.

Race has a part in this discussion because you have repeatedly refered to the Palestinians as animals. And you are correct that you should not be allowed to say things like this anymore.

This is why I stick up for the Palestinians, because people dehumanize them, and that makes it easier to kill them. It's sick and it's wrong.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is why I stick up for the Palestinians, because people dehumanize them, and that makes it easier to kill them. It's sick and it's wrong.

The same has been done to the Jews and for a far longer period. Yet they never resorted to using their children as human bombs or hid behind women and children.

[AntiochusIII]

The same has been done to the Jews and for a far longer period. Yet they never resorted to using their children as human bombs or hid behind women and children.Because they didn't had bomb back then?

Jews rebelled desperately again and again when they were a united people. When they were dispersed, they were too weak. Otherwise they would rebel just like the Palestinians do right now.

Oh, and they expressed their anger by creating a vengeful deity in their literature, stamping their rage of the oppression forever (or as long as Christianity and/or Judaism survives) into history.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Because they didn't had bomb back then?

Your kidding right? There were no bombs or explosives during the holocaust?


Jews rebelled desperately again and again when they were a united people. When they were dispersed, they were too weak. Otherwise they would rebel just like the Palestinians do right now.

How do you reach this startling conclusion when no other peoples in history have done this sort of thing?


Oh, and they expressed their anger by creating a vengeful deity in their literature, stamping their rage of the oppression forever (or as long as Christianity and/or Judaism survives) into history.

The god of christianity is anything but vengeful. How come you left out Islam?

[AntiochusIII]

Your kidding right? There were no bombs or explosives during the holocaust?Were they strong enough to even hope to rebel against the immensely powerful Nazi Germany at the time? Did they actually struggled in hope of survival through escaping means?


How do you reach this startling conclusion when no other peoples in history have done this sort of thing? Many peoples rebelled when they were occupied and oppressed. No other people?


The god of christianity is anything but vengeful. How come you left out Islam?By vengeful I mean no evil. Jehovah is certainly a vengeful god in my definition. Did I say he's evil, or being depicted as evil? No?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Were they strong enough to even hope to rebel against the immensely powerful Nazi Germany at the time? Did they actually struggled in hope of survival through escaping means?

Are the Palestinians? If so whats all the crying about? They can escape anytime they like.


Many peoples rebelled when they were occupied and oppressed. No other people?

Rebelled yes but strap bombs to their children no.


Jehovah is certainly a vengeful god in my definition.

What has that to do with christianity. I could claim that Islam and Mohamed are a relgion of war. Whats the point?

[AntiochusIII]

Are the Palestinians? If so whats all the crying about? They can escape anytime they like.Can they? The Israeli troops everywhere and the fact that the greedy Arab "oligarchies" blockaded all their escape?


Rebelled yes but strap bombs to their children no.Rebellion = War. War = every method you *need* to do to fight - "dirtier" methods from the safe people's point of view (ours) if needs be, if you're fighting a superior foe. And no, I'm not justifying it - it just how war goes. Everybody does that, even if there are major variations in method, action, and opinion. It isn't a "justified" thing - but justify me any war - war itself, not the sides in it.


What has that to do with christianity. I could claim that Islam and Mohamed are a relgion of war. Whats the point?The point is - the Jews WERE angry at the oppressions on them, and they expressed it.

[Beirut]

The same has been done to the Jews and for a far longer period. Yet they never resorted to using their children as human bombs or hid behind women and children.

My God if this isn't the cry of the wild. "They use their children to carry bombs!"

I've got another cry for you; "The Israeli army murders Palestinian children."

Mind you, that doesn't ring any bells with some people at all. I mean, after all, they're just animals aren't they?

You're Doctor Statistic, how many Palestinian children have blown themselves up? Have you got the numbers? You people make it sound like human waves of toddlers are infiltrating Israel laced with C4. How many have done it? What is the percentage? .0001%? .0000001%? How many are in the Great Uncounted Horde of Babyhood Bombers?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I've got another cry for you; "The Israeli army murders Palestinian children."

Well theres a lie for certain.


Mind you, that doesn't ring any bells with some people at all. I mean, after all, they're just animals aren't they?

I certainly never said that.


You're Doctor Statistic, how many Palestinian children have blown themselves up? Have you got the numbers? You people make it sound like human waves of toddlers are infiltrating Israel laced with C4. How many have done it? What is the percentage? .0001%? .0000001%? How many are in the Great Uncounted Horde of Babyhood Bombers?

How do you expalin this


The Indoctrination of Palestinian children - Shahids
During the October-November 2000 conflict, the Palestinians made much political capital of the number of children killed by the security forces. These deaths are much regretted by the I.D.F., but it must be remembered that these youngsters were in the middle of rioting mobs, often with snipers firing from behind them. The I.D.F. had to keep these mobs from marching on Jewish areas. The children were there, in many cases, because the Palestine Authority had closed the schools so the children could join the mob. Although the Palestinian media agents know how to touch western sensibilities, their own attitude to the loss of these young lives is not one that we understand. "Child Martyr" Mohammed al Durra just before his death.
The mother of 13 year old Mohammed al-Durra who was seen around the world, cowering behind his father said, "I am happy that he has been martyred." Presumably she genuinely believes the promise that "Allah will grant suicide bombers and dead teenagers seven rewards from the moment their blood is spilt fighting the Jews, including the choice of 40 members of family or friends to join them in paradise, and 72 dark eyed (beautiful) women." (It's in the Hadith, not the Qur'an)
The Anatomy of Child Self-Sacrifice. buy the video Such promises and other incitements are regularly preached and radio and TV stations broadcast blatant racial hatred and military music.

The Palestinian Media Watch ( www.pmw.org.il ) monitors the Palestinian Media and has collected a horrifying archive showing, among other things, how the Palestine Authority is actively indoctrinating its children from the earliest years to seek to become Shaheeds (martyrs). This may be achieved either as a suicide bomber or by throwing stones at Israeli forces in the hope of getting shot. If you find this hard to believe, try and obtain a copy of this video. If you see what is being shown repeatedly on Palestinian TV the whole violent conflict is explained. When a whole generation is poisoned with hatred, man can never find a solution; only God can undo such evil.

To buy a copy of this video click here Jerusalem vistas.

When our leaders misguidedly assume that young men blow themselves up as "suicide bombers" out of the desperation of their situation (for example, Cherie Blair - UK PM's wife) they show ignorance of what lies behind these actions.

* The teachings of Islam have been twisted to commend "suicide attacks" and promise a direct path to paradise, which is not promised for any other act or holiness of life. This offer includes chosen members of one's family.

* A young person who dies as a "Shaheed" is venerated; his (her) desk at school is turned into a shrine and his parents become very highly respected members of the community. A woman would otherwise have very low status.

* The family of a terrorist who dies in action is paid a very large amount of money by the governments of Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Whether this money is called compensation or bounty is irrelevant; it will set up the family in an economy that has been crippled by Yasser Arafat's "Intifada". Saudi Arabia paid $500,000 to 102 families of terrorists who died in actions against Israel. (documents found by the IDF)

* Palestinians (Muslim) have very large families compared to people in the West and many are happy to sacrifice some of their children to their cause.

* If young men and women believes the future to be bleak, is this not because the continual propaganda has convinced them this is so? Taking the "Instant Paradise" option is not nearly such a matter of "Desperation" as it would be for a young person in secular Western countries. It would appear quite logical if you could get into their mindset.

* Remember - - Suicide is a solitary act - these acts are homicide.
A note left by Mahmoud Ahmed Marmash, aged 21, who blew himself up in Netanya on May 18th 2001, killing five Israelis and injuring 110 more.

Suicide bomber Mahmoud Ahmed Marmash, aged 21
"Whoever believes that God's religion will be victorious without jihad, without blood, without body parts is under an illusion and doesn't know the nature of this religion."



Why is there such motivation among young Palestinians?

They are indoctrinated with it from infancy.


This snap was found in the home of a wanted terrorist in Hebron (June 27 2002) These young Palestinians are learning how to kill Jews in one of the P.A. summer camps.
Palestinian textbooks show the map of the Middle East with Palestine occupying all of Israel and the West Bank: Israel does not exist.

History is similarly distorted




In a 6th grade Palestinian textbook, "Our beautiful language" we find the "Shahid’s song" encouraging death in war in the role of a shahid:

"I will take my soul into my hands and hurl it into the abyss of death".
This is only one example of the brainwashing that Palestinian children undergo. Brainwashing is imprinted deep in their educational system and demands a far-reaching solution - uprooting the foundations of incitement and hate.

Hate propaganda is also produced in comic book format, like this version of the conflict between Mohammed and the Jews of Medina.

Subliminal messages have been outlawed in the west for half a century. Yet the Palestinian Authority uses subliminal messages to teach hatred and promote murder of Jews. This picture flashes on the screen for 1/4 second in a PA music video that has been broadcast repeatedly from December 2000 through 2002. www.pmw.org.il

Introduction
In this week’s literature section in the official Palestinian daily, Al Hayat Al Jadida, a poem written as an imaginary letter from a suicide bomber to his mother, glorifies and idealizes every action of his murder and suicidal death.
The Palestinian Authority [PA] has been promoting, Shahada - Death for Allah - in general and suicide bombing in particular to its population and especially to its children during the recent years of conflict. This poem is another example, that this promotion continues, even after the recent well publicized call for a cease fire by the PA.
The "son" defining of his death killing Jews as a "wedding" ceremony and the call to his mother to be "joyous" over his death have been regular expressions of the Palestinian war culture over the past two and a half years, having been published and broadcast hundreds of times in numerous contexts.

The following is the text of the imaginary "letter" of the suicide bomber:

"A letter from a Shahid to his Mother"
By Abdul Badi Iraq

"My Dear Mother,
...I wrapped my body with determination, with hopes and with bombs.
I asked [reaching] towards Allah and the fighting homeland.
The [explosive] belt makes me fly, strengthens me to make haste.
I calm it [the explosive], we should stay steadfast, we have not yet reached.
I freed/launched myself; I freed/launched myself, [detonated myself] like lava burning old legends and vanity,
I freed/launched my body, all my pains and oppression, towards the packs of beasts...
I freed/launched, oh mother, freed the chains and the shackles.

And you found me rising and rising like a candle that was lit with precious olive oil.
And you saw me sending a loving kiss above the mosques and the churches, the houses and the roads.
Flocks of pigeons flew above the porches
And Al-Aksa smiled and gave me a sign that we will not sleep.

Dawn is close, oh mother, and it shall rise from the guns, from the shining spears
It will be lit from a bloody wound...
The wedding is the wedding of the land.
Sound a cry of joy, oh mother, I am the groom..."

[Al Hayat Al Jadida, official Palestinian Daily, Feb. 27, 2003]

www.pmw.org.il
Do not forget the value of butchering suspected collaborators to in order to deter neighbours from seeking peaceful relations with Israel.



The body of suspected collaborator, Moussa Arjoub in Hebron, 23 April 2002.








It is calculated that Palestinians are directly responsible for one in eight of the Palestinian deaths.







Lebanese edition of Hitler's Mein Kampf 1975
It should also be noted that an Arabic translation of Adolf Hitler's "Mien Kampf" is selling extremely well in Arab lands, including the P.A. territory.

(See also Holocaust and bear in mind the World War II links between the Nazis and Yasser Arafat's family.)

These editions were published in Lebanon in 1975 (left) and 1995 (right)


Lebanese edition of Hitler's Mein Kampf - 1995



http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/images/baby%20shaheed.bmp

LINK (http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/indoctrination.htm)

If thats not enough


To: United Nations, its Security Council, World Government Leaders, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch

To: UN and World Government Leaders

We, the undersigned, petition the United Nations, its Security Council and World Government Leaders to join Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE whereby the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Terrorist Organizations are indoctrinating its children into virulent anti-Semitism, genocide incitement and training to become suicide/homicide bombers.

Furthermore, we insist that the United Nations, its Security Council and World Government Leaders declare that raising infants and children to become suicidal/homicidal bombers is a violation of fundamental human rights, a breach of the Geneva Convention and a war crime. We ask that the Palestinian leadership and those political, governmental, military and religious organizations and their leaders and supporters of Indoctrination and Training of Children to Bebome Suicide/Homicide Bombers be prosecuted by the International War Crimes Tribunal to the fullest extent of International Law. We ask for World support of this worthy cause.


The International Covenant of Children's Rights condemns the recruitment of children under age 18 in armed conflicts. Yet contrary to this basic tenet, Palestinian children are deliberately being raised in a culture of violence and hate. The instances of proof are many and varied.

Here are but a few examples:
See: mideastnewswire.com

The BBC has videotaped Islamic Jihad-sponsored summer camps where children as young as eight receive paramilitary training. In contravention of normal humane standards, children are taught that after a person becomes a suicide bomber, he reaches the highest level of paradise. Such ingrained hatred leads to the glorification of violence and martyrdom, and the willingness to kill others for the perceived benefit of spiritual immortality. Children of a very young age, and even babies, have been dressed and photographed as suicide bombers by their parents.

- Abu Mazen, a senior official within the Palestinian Authority, admitted that children have been paid approximately $1 for every pipe bomb they throw. According to Abu Mazen, at least 40 children have lost arms when throwing these bombs. (Alzamim [a Kuwiati newspaper] June 20, 2002)
- Incitement to violence is rife throughout the Palestinian Authority school system. School textbooks encourage hatred and extol "martyrdom". Signs are posted on the walls of kindergartens praising their students as "the shaheeds [martyrs] of tomorrow". Elementary school teachers and principals commend students for wanting to "tear their [Zionists'] bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know."

The vast majority of Palestinian children have been tragically killed during confrontations with the IDF. Exact numbers are unavailable, but educated estimates set the number of killed in this manner at around 200.

How did these children come to be exposed to danger?

Why are Palestinian children allowed to confront a military force?

Why are they present among rioters, snipers, and terrorists?

And how is the press always in "the right place at the right time" to photograph such acts of false heroism?

Unfortunately, these very reasonable questions have not as yet been answered - neither by the Palestinian Authority nor by the families of the victims themselves.

There is also mounting evidence that Palestinian children have been exploited by elements within the Palestinian leadership, in order to manipulate media images, deliberately being sent to the front lines of the conflict.

The petitioners firmly believe that conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere can and must be resolved by diplomatic, political and negotiated means, but that when civilians are attacked by terrorists, there is no recourse but for defensive measures.

For example, there is documented television footage revealing that Palestinian snipers have repeatedly used children as human shields when shooting at the IDF. By contrast, Israeli soldiers have standing orders not to shoot live ammunition at children, but with children running around in a war zone, or are held captive in front of Palestinian "warriors" as human shields, some children are bound to get hurt or killed.

As a further incentive for Palestinians to use their children as 'cannon fodder' - in their suicidal/homicidal war against Israel, cash donations have been provided to the parents of children wounded or killed as "martyrs."

- Iraq's Saddam Hussein increased his financial pledge to Palestinian families of suicide bombers from $10,000 to $25,000. (Associated Press, April 3,2002)
- A quasi-governmental committee in Saudi Arabia last year pledged $5,333 to "each family that has suffered from martyrdom." (The Washington Post, April 9,2002)
- Payment authorisation for ceremonies honouring suicide bombers, as well as money to support families of the suicide bombers, have been found signed by Arafat - the chairman of the Palestinian authority. (The Washington Post, April 3,2002; MSNBC, April 3,2002)

This is coupled to a social approval so powerful that thay are strapping bombs on 11 year olds and when 15-year-old Ahmat Omar Abu Selmia was killed on his way to attack the Israeli community of Dugit, his father celebrated his "martyrdom" at a street festival attended by about 200 men.

How can this be considered acceptable, a society that encourages its children to die?

Intentional Targeting of Israeli Children
Hundreds of Israeli children have been killed or maimed since September 27, 2000. In many cases, these children were merely engaging in everyday activities, such as riding in a bus to school, eating at a restaurant with their parents, playing in a kindergarten or simply queuing to enter a discotheque on the weekend. A more comprehensive list is available in The Prism Groups extensive study on The Children of the Intifada.

What links these incidents is that the targets were picked as "soft" and unprotected. Nothing can justify these acts of violence, which strike at the core of reasonable Western values.

Conclusion
The most vulnerable and valuable segment of any society is its children; every effort should be made to afford them the protection promised in the United Nations' Declaration of the Rights of the Child. The Palestinian educational system is in urgent need of reform in order to break the endless cycle of hatred. The exploitation of Palestinian children on the battlefield must be stopped.

It is vital that all children, both Palestinian and Israeli, grow up free of violence and hate. This is the key to a true and lasting peace in the future.

It is our firm belief that the majority of the present generation of Palestinians are too cynical and/or have too much of an insane homicidal death wish in order to properly raise their children to want a lasting peace with Israel and thus will continue the cycle of genocidal war crimes and its deadly defensive actions against homicidal terrorism by Israel for years to come.

When the present generation of children are raised to sanely and properly respect human life there stands to be much improved chances of peace between Palestinian and Israelis through negotiation and civilized conflict resolution.

We have signed this position and sent it to people of all faiths, ethnic backgrounds and political beliefs with the hopes that the UN and World Leaders will not only vote to divest financial support of Palestinian Aid groups that are a cover for terrorist organizations and immorality and criminality of raising of innocents to kill other innocents.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

[Beirut]

Well theres a lie for certain.

Are you saying the Israeli army has never killed any Palestinian children?




I certainly never said that.

But it has been said.




How do you explain this?

I saw two metnions of men of 21 years of age. (Which is six years older tyhan the US minimum for giving machine guns to new army recruits and sending them off to kill.)

What are the number of children who have blown themselves up in Israel. Not 21 year old men - children. Let's say 15 or less. 16 being army age and therefore not exactly childlike.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/jews2.bmp

[Redleg]

I saw two metnions of men of 21 years of age. (Which is six years older tyhan the US minimum for giving machine guns to new army recruits and sending them off to kill.) Incorrect the minimum age of enlistment is 17 with parents or guardian's written permission.




What are the number of children who have blown themselves up in Israel. Not 21 year old men - children. Let's say 15 or less. 16 being army age and therefore not exactly childlike.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/jews2.bmp

Which army - enlists soldiers at the age of 16

[Beirut]

Incorrect the minimum age of enlistment is 17 with parents or guardian's written permission.

I stand corrected. :bow:





Which army - enlists soldiers at the age of 16

Ours.

[LittleGrizzly]

Which army - enlists soldiers at the age of 16

ours to, i think with parental permission though

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you saying the Israeli army has never killed any Palestinian children?

I never said they didnt and thats not what you said. Your claim was they murdered Palestinian children. There is a difference you know. If anyones murdering Palestinian children its Palestinains.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/jews2.bmp

Is that supposed to be an Israeli suicide bomber or dont Israelis have the rght to teach their chilldren self defense. I would have no qualms with Palestinians teaching their children how to do likewise in this enviorment.


But it has been said.

Its been saids of both sides and both sides have had their instances of uncivilised behavior.


What are the number of children who have blown themselves up in Israel. Not 21 year old men - children. Let's say 15 or less. 16 being army age and therefore not exactly childlike.

I havent found it yet but teaching this stuff to your children is totaly unacceptable .

[PanzerJaeger]

It was you, sir, who played the race card by calling an indentifiable group of people "barbaric" and "animalistic". I'm sorry if you find that uncomfortable, but it is what it is.


Race has a part in this discussion because you have repeatedly refered to the Palestinians as animals. And you are correct that you should not be allowed to say things like this anymore.

Explain to me how the palestinians are a race? I am ethnically German, does that make me a different race than a dutchman?

No Beirut, you pulled out the race card because you know it stifles opinion. It puts people on the defensive.


This is why I stick up for the Palestinians, because people dehumanize them, and that makes it easier to kill them. It's sick and it's wrong.

It makes it even more easy to kill them when they dehumanize themselves in the manner in which i discussed earlier. It is the peak of sickness and wrongness to tolerate, accept, and promote the suicide of children.

If there was a group trying to recruit the children of my neighborhood to go kill themselves, everyone would be on the streets searching for these people to string them up. These so-called-people tolerate such things and in many cases support it.

I am restricted from stating what these - things - are in my opinion, but I cannot classify them as fully human... at least not with all the emotions associated with humanity.

I still cant wait to watch you redefine race, it will be quite interesting. ~:cheers:

[LittleGrizzly]

If there was a group trying to recruit the children of my neighborhood to go kill themselves, everyone would be on the streets searching for these people to string them up. These so-called-people tolerate such things and in many cases support it.


of course they would, and it would be exactly the same if the palestinian people swopped with americans

[Redleg]

If there was a group trying to recruit the children of my neighborhood to go kill themselves, everyone would be on the streets searching for these people to string them up. These so-called-people tolerate such things and in many cases support it.


of course they would, and it would be exactly the same if the palestinian people swopped with americans

What is this suppose to mean Grizz?


And Panzer - I to have to say you are over generalizing the issue. Is there a percentage of Palenstian people who activitly encourage their children to become suicide bombers? The news carries these reports everynow and then so it can not be denied.

Is there a group of Palestinian terrorists who go and activitly recuit children to perform suicide bombing missions either knownly or unknown - sure there is - it is also covered in the news everynow and then.

Does that make everyone who claims they are Palestinian to be barbaric? That my friend is a stretch of logic in my opinion.

However to claim that those who would send their children to death in such a way are criminals of the worst type and the crime they are committing is barbaric is not.

[LittleGrizzly]

What is this suppose to mean Grizz?

the of course they would part, i really have no idea

the other part, i was saying that palestinians would not send thier children off to kill themselves if they were in americas position (basically if palestinians were americans)

[JAG]

Of course it does.. thats what palastinians do.

Man, I stopped reading after that clear racist jibe. PJ, you are no better than the people in the highlighted article.

[Byzantine Prince]

Why is this thread not being closed? There is clear and blatant racism going on.

[PanzerJaeger]

The palestinians are not a race just as Americans are not a race or Canadians.

Does that make everyone who claims they are Palestinian to be barbaric? That my friend is a stretch of logic in my opinion.

You have a valid criticism of my position but I must say I dont see many of them standing up against this kind of behavior. That tolerance of such heinous acts is just a peg below propagating it.

[JAG]

Ah so I can say all Americans are hypocritical, dictator supporting, back stabbing scum bags because your govt is and you let all forms of govt continue with it? Since the cold war your govts have looked after their own interests and no one elses even at the cost of innocent lives and the support of dictators - that means I can label all Americans as such?

Damnation by association or generalisation is disgusting and you should be ashamed of doing it, but you clearly are not because you are so anti Muslim / Palestinian / racist etc, call it what you will it amounts to the same.

[Byzantine Prince]

The palestinians are not a race just as Americans are not a race or Canadians.
Are blacks a different race? Socially speaking?
I think they are, because if I said all blacks were poor losers with not taste in clothes I would be striken immidiately by the mods for racism.

Next thing you'll tell me that Hitler wasn't racist.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ah so I can say all Americans are hypocritical, dictator supporting, back stabbing scum bags because your govt is and you let all forms of govt continue with it? Since the cold war your govts have looked after their own interests and no one elses even at the cost of innocent lives and the support of dictators - that means I can label all Americans as such?

If you buy into leftist propaganda, then sure you can. If you give examples like I did, i will discuss them. You seem to be content ignoring the actual examples and playing the race card.


Damnation by association or generalisation is disgusting and you should be ashamed of doing it, but you clearly are not because you are so anti Muslim / Palestinian / racist etc, call it what you will it amounts to the same.

The palestinians damned themselves by associating themselves with the propagation of suicidal children.

They seem to be able to get plenty of people out on the streets to shout "Kill all the jews!" - Why cant the get people out on the streets to protest the suicide of their own children? They are not powerless among themselves, if they wanted to put an end to such butchery, they could do it.

By your own standards i suppose i could call you racist as you constantly put down the United States. Ohh, this new definition of what race is is fun.. anytime I want to divert attention from the actual discussion ill just call people racist! :shame:

[Ser Clegane]

PJ - to make one thing very clear - you are not restricted from expressing your opinion about Palestinian terrorists.
If you say that people who strap on bombs to kill children or even strap bombs on their own children to let them kill other children, have lost a good part of their humanity I would say that most, if not all poeple on this board would agree with you.

The problem with your statements lies in what Redleg summarized quite well:

I to have to say you are over generalizing the issue. Is there a percentage of Palenstian people who activitly encourage their children to become suicide bombers? The news carries these reports everynow and then so it can not be denied.

Is there a group of Palestinian terrorists who go and activitly recuit children to perform suicide bombing missions either knownly or unknown - sure there is - it is also covered in the news everynow and then.

Does that make everyone who claims they are Palestinian to be barbaric? That my friend is a stretch of logic in my opinion.

However to claim that those who would send their children to death in such a way are criminals of the worst type and the crime they are committing is barbaric is not.

It would be also great if we could stop this consistently re-occurring and rather useless discussions about whether slandering people of a certain nationality is the same as racism or not.

Technically it is not "racism" - but this would be just semantics. The important thing is that it does not make any difference whether you slander a people based on their race or on their nationality. The result is the same and the type of prejudice is the same.
There is no difference in mindset between dehumanizing people based on their race or based on their nationality - hence both will be treated in the same way on this board.



Why is this thread not being closed?

Firstly, I tend to sleep at night, secondly, this thread has been mostly a civilized discussion so far - if it stays that way the thread will stay open.
If it does not and the discussion degenerates into petty fights over what is racism and what is not - then the thread might be closed.

Back to the actual discussion



Yet they never resorted to using their children as human bombs or hid behind women and children.

You bring up an intersting point, Gawain.
What if the Jews during the holocaust actually had turned to such measures to fight the Nazis?
In restropective, would we consider that to be justified in their case?

Just to avoid misunderstandings - I do not think that the situation of today's Palestinians is even close to being comparable to the situation of the Jews during the holocaust (what we see in Palestine is by no means a genocide).

However, it would be interesting to hear opinions if there is a threshold beyond which even terrorist acts as we see them in Palestine would become justifiable.

[JAG]

If it does not and the discussion degenerates into petty fights over what is racism and what is not - then the thread might be closed.

Having just scrolled down ready to reply and seeing your response you must have done seconds before I clicked reply.. I have deleted my post, I shall not de rail the thread. :bow:

[Byzantine Prince]

This thread is stupid and contradictory.


How can Palestinians, a SEMITE people, be anti-SEMITIC, and what does denying the holocaust, an event that has nothing to do with the current situation is Israel, relate to Palestinians, who would, if they lived in Germany, been exterminated themselves for being semitic?

[Ser Clegane]

This thread is stupid and contradictory.


How can Palestinians, a SEMITE people, be anti-SEMITIC, and what does denying the holocaust, an event that has nothing to do with the current situation is Israel, relate to Palestinians, who would, if they lived in Germany, been exterminated themselves for being semitic?

There we have another case of discussing semantics.

Though you are technically right that the term "Semite" goes beyond covering the Jewish people, it should be rather clear that the term "anti-semitic" as it is commonly used only refers to Jews.

You are making a mistake if you believe that the Nazis in Germany were "anti-semitic" in the sense that they wanted to eradicate all Semite people.

[Byzantine Prince]

You are making a mistake if you believe that the Nazis in Germany were "anti-semitic" in the sense that they wanted to eradicate all Semite people.
Really? Are you sure? In Nazi theories written by Alfred Rosenberg and others, Semites are the lowest form of life on Earth. How were they not anti-semite? Are you kidding me?

The only other people to come close were the Slavs who would eventually be eradicated if Germany had suceeded.

If you are refering to the little alliances with the Arabs to that, then I can show you similar alliances with the Croats(slavic nation), and even some Ukrainians.

Jews ARE Semites just like Palestinians! They came from the same god damn place! How can they not be?

[Ser Clegane]

Really? Are you sure? In Nazi theories written by Alfred Rosenberg and others, Semites are the lowest form of life on Earth. How were they not anti-semite? Are you kidding me?

I have to admit that I am not in detail familiar with Rosenberg's "theories" - do you have any prove that his definition of "Semite" included the Arab population?
Or do you have any indication of the systematic persecution (planned or actually conducted) of Semites other than Jews?



Jews ARE Semites just like Palestinians! They came from the same god damn place! How can they not be?

Of course Jews are Semites - I do not recall that this has been doubted by me or anybody else.
The point is that while etymologically "anti-semitism" refers to all Semites, the common use of the term only refers to prejudices against Jewish people.

[Byzantine Prince]

So, what's your point?
Are you saying this thread is contradictory because the meaning of the word anti-semitism has been coined by idiots and used as such ever since?

I think my point still stands. I can't imagine there being Palestinians in Germany in 1937 and not be persecuted for that reason. It's obsurd.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think my point still stands. I can't imagine there being Palestinians in Germany in 1937 and not be persecuted for that reason. It's obsurd.

Can you tell me who these people are BP?

http://www.falangist.com/mufti2.jpg

[Byzantine Prince]

Who posted this?

If you are refering to the little alliances with the Arabs to that, then I can show you similar alliances with the Croats(slavic nation), and even some Ukrainians.
Well, me! :smartass:
Thanks for sidetracking the discussion.
See you next troll... ~:)

[Beirut]

Explain to me how the palestinians are a race? I am ethnically German, does that make me a different race than a dutchman?

No Beirut, you pulled out the race card because you know it stifles opinion. It puts people on the defensive.

I am restricted from stating what these - things - are in my opinion, but I cannot classify them as fully human... at least not with all the emotions associated with humanity.

I still cant wait to watch you redefine race, it will be quite interesting. ~:cheers:

You are correct and I am eating a delicious cow field cookie. :embarassed:

The Palestinians are not a race unto themselves. I was wrong.

On the other hand... what you said, regardless of my innacuracies regarding race, was still over the line and unnaceptable. Perhaps instead if citing it as racist, it would be more accurate to call it hate speech.

But fair is fair then, if someone on these boards accuses the Jews of being animals, then that cannot be racist either as they are a Semitic people, like the Palestinians and not a race unto themselves. However, it would still be hate speech, and would still be unacceptable.

I apologise for calling you a racist. I was wrong. But I do not apologise for taking you to task for what you said. You were wrong.

[Beirut]

Quote Beirut:
What are the number of children who have blown themselves up in Israel. Not 21 year old men - children. Let's say 15 or less. 16 being army age and therefore not exactly childlike.


I havent found it yet but teaching this stuff to your children is totaly unacceptable .

Well this is the crux of the issue is it not. These boards echo with the sounds of "Palestinian children are blowing themselves up! They're animals!" It is brought up endlessly. It is the be all - end all excuse for justifying any and every Israeli military action, no matter how attrocious and violent.

If this is going to be used by the pro-Israeli military side to justify Israeli action, it might be nice to know how many times has it happened.

The question stands - how many Palestinian children have been suicide bombers?

I think it would be fair to either show some numbers on this issue or consider ceasing and desisting from using it as an excuse to justify everything Israel does.

For my part, I agree that one is too many. But one or two or even five is not enough to paint an entire people as has been done on these forums (and elsewhere).

[Fragony]

I have to admit that I am not in detail familiar with Rosenberg's "theories" - do you have any prove that his definition of "Semite" included the Arab population?


It didn't, only the jews. There were even arab SS units.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well this is the crux of the issue is it not. These boards echo with the sounds of "Palestinian children are blowing themselves up! They're animals!" It is brought up endlessly. It is the be all - end all excuse for justifying any and every Israeli military action, no matter how attrocious and violent.

No the crux of the matter is in the teachings and general attitude that this is acceptable at all to a peoples. Teaching 1 child to blow themselves up and teaching them this is good both ib scholl and on tv shows a lack of civility dont you think. Its the pervasive attitude of this veing not only ok but encouraged that is digusting. The fact that most of them waint until their 17 or 18 has little to do with the mattr. They still teach their children to blow people up.

[Franconicus]

I have to admit that I am not in detail familiar with Rosenberg's "theories" - do you have any prove that his definition of "Semite" included the Arab population?
Or do you have any indication of the systematic persecution (planned or actually conducted) of Semites other than Jews?


Of course Jews are Semites - I do not recall that this has been doubted by me or anybody else.
The point is that while etymologically "anti-semitism" refers to all Semites, the common use of the term only refers to prejudices against Jewish people.
I found this link - German however:
http://www.lexikon-definition.de/Semiten.html
Says that Semites are people that are talking a semitian language. Name comes from Sem, the son of Noah. You find Eastern (Babylonian, Assyrian), Southern (Ethiopian) and Western (Jewish, Punish ...) Semites. (Hey, looks like Hannibal was one, too).
The Nazis used it to distinguish from an Christion motivated anti-jewishm. In 1944 they declared that they do not include Arabs. (Guess why?)

[Beirut]

No the crux of the matter is in the teachings and general attitude that this is acceptable at all to a peoples. Teaching 1 child to blow themselves up and teaching them this is good both ib scholl and on tv shows a lack of civility dont you think. Its the pervasive attitude of this veing not only ok but encouraged that is digusting. The fact that most of them waint until their 17 or 18 has little to do with the mattr. They still teach their children to blow people up.

So you'll agree that people on these boards who speak of Palestinian children blowing themselves up are exagerating, if not lying?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So you'll agree that people on these boards who speak of Palestinian children blowing themselves up are exagerating, if not lying?

I have no idea how many have done so. Therefore I cant call them liars. I have never seen them say how many children do this. If they say all palestinian children blow themselves up then their liars. How many must do it before their telling the truth? Give me a number.

[Beirut]

I'm going to have to search some old posts. I've seen many where, when israel is criticized for military actions against the Palestinians, the defence is "But the Palestinians are sending their children into Israel as suicide bombers and killing innocent Israelis."

Now, given that you are possibly ther staunchest supporter of Israel here, and certainly well informed by anyone's standards, if you can't say how many child suicide bombers there have been, perhaps it's time for people to stop using it as a debating tool to excuse Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

if you can't say how many child suicide bombers there have been, perhaps it's time for people to stop using it as a debating tool to excuse Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.

Nice dodge. You are well informed and perhaps the staunchest supporter of Palestine here and you dont know either. Maybe you shouldnt use something as a debating tool either if you dont know the answer. The facts again are that they have used children. That they continue to encourage children to do this sort of thing. The number who have actually done it is irrelavant.

PS I cant tell you how many adults evenhave been used so I guess we cant accuse them of doing this either.

[Beirut]

Oh please. I'm not dodging anything. It's the people on your side of the issue who constantly bring up the baby bombers as both an excuse for Israeli actions and as an example of Palestinian barbarity. The onus is on your side to come up with the numbers to support the frequent accusations made.

"The number of children who have done is is irrelevant."

Wow! ~:eek: Well, let's not let the truth get in the way of our arguments shall we. We have rumour and inuendo so who needs facts.

How many children have blown themselves up? I think it's fair to either come up with an answer or stop mentioning it. And it is your side that keeps mentioning it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh please. I'm not dodging anything. It's the people on your side of the issue who constantly bring up the baby bombers as both an excuse for Israeli actions and as an example of Palestinian barbarity. The onus is on your side to come up with the numbers to support the frequent accusations made.

I never have used the baby bombers as an excuse for Israeli actions. I use the excuse of all homocide bombers as an excuse for Israeli actions. Dam the Don has me in a pickle here. The fact that any children have been braine washed in this manner showa a trend toward Palestinian barbarity as does what is taught in their schools ,shown on their TVs and preached in their mosques.


Wow! Well, let's not let the truth get in the way of our arguments shall we. We have rumour and inuendo so who needs facts.

So now your denying any children have done this? They dont learn it from all the sources I mentioned? Its only a rumor that any Palestinian children have done this? And you tell me not to let the facts get in my way LOL. Its funny how you see the treatment of prisoners by the US as a systematic problem yet deny the same on this matter.

[PanzerJaeger]

Sorry ive ducked out of this topic for a while - the clone wars seemed more pressing. Here is some relevant information. I think it is unusually objective.

I think both of our points stand. Beirut is correct in saying this isnt an everyday occurance and I am correct in saying that it is employed and used, albeit not on a regular basis, by groups that enjoy support among the palestinian people.


Incidents since September 2000 and prior to 2004
On April 24, 2002, three children aged 12, 13 and 14 were killed while attempting to infilitate Netzarim settlement in the Gaza Strip. The three children - Ismail Abu Nada (12), Anwar Ill Azi Mustafa Hamarna (13) and Yosef Basem Yosef Zakut (14) - were activists of the local Islamic youth movement of the Sheikh Raduan neighbourhood in Gaza. No Palestinian group claimed responsibility for the attack, but Israeli intelligence sources attributed it to Hamas. Hamas, however, denied the charge and condemned the usage of children in military operations, and asked them to remember that their lives are precious, and should not be sacrificed. [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1948502.stm)

The data collected by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) regarding the involvement of Palestinian children in suicide bombings is grim. According to this data:

Since the beginning of violence in the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000, 29 suicide attacks have been carried out by youth under the age of 18.
Since May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18.
Since the beginning of 2001, more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (of them, three during 2004). [13] (http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/031604-1.stm)
Some Palestinian and international human rights groups, however, point out omissions in the IDF's data. In particular, since the beginning of the conflict:

The IDF has killed 652 Palestinian children during the intifada, which began in September 2000.
Defence for Children International's Palestine Section (DCI/PS) reports that an estimated 10 000 children were wounded during the intifada.
Over 2 000 children had been arrested by June 2003.
Children in IDF custody have reported abuse (beatings, sleep deprivation, and humiliation such as being forced to strip naked, derogatory language, being forced to perform a variety of demeaning actions, etc''.) and the same level of treatment as adult Palestinians; allegations that have been documented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
[edit]
Incidents in 2004
On March 24, 2004, one week after capturing a bomb in the bag of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran[14] (http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/palestinians/) [15] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4892818-103681,00.html), possibly placed without his knowledge (some Palestinians have claimed the explosives were planted by Israelis), Hussam Abdo, a 16-year old Palestinian who initially claimed he was 14 was captured in a checkpoint near Nablus wearing an explosive belt. The young boy was paid by the Tanzim militia to detonate himself onto the checkpoint. IDF soldiers, manning the checkpoint, were suspicious of him and told him to stay away from people. Later, an EOD team arrived and by using a police-sapper robot, removed the explosive belt from him. [16] (http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files///1//28131.jpg)[17] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1170980,00.html). These incidents were both widely condemned in the Palestinian press, and in the Arab world in general.

The latest incidents have caused a controversy in the Palestinian society, with most expressing their dismay at the phenomenon. Although all major Palestinian groups have "publicly disavowed the use of children in military operations ... those stated policies have not always been implemented". However, the Israeli government still claims that the Palestinian Authority (PA) is inciting children to participate in militant operations and attacks, alleging that PA television broadcasts call on children to seek death, and that the PA condones posters of suicide bombers in the classrooms. [18] (http://www.pmw.org.il/specrep-32.html)

Human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International, strongly condemned the act of using children to commit attacks.

"Amnesty International has repeatedly condemned suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians by Palestinian armed groups as crimes against humanity. Using children to carry out or assist in armed attacks of any kind is an abomination. We call on the Palestinian leadership to publicly denounce these practices."
"Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs's Brigades, must put an immediate end to the use or involvement of any kind of children in armed activity." [19] (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150352004)
Despite the harsh condemnation and internal controversy, Palestinian militant groups such as Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and Islamic Jihad, have recently used children as militants and suicide bombers. On March 31, 2004, Raed Khuweir blamed Palestinian Islamic Jihad for attempting to recruit his younger brother, aged 15, to commit a suicide attack. He said:

"They crushed my brother. These are dubious people who tarnish the reputation of the resistance by making us look like barbarians who exploit children."
Khuweir claimed that his younger brother was "brainwashed" by an Islamic Jihad cleric and "call[ed] on the Palestinian Authority to investigate this affair and on Islamic Jihad to reveal who these people are that deceive children, so that [it would be known] they really belong to the group" [20] (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9140509%255E1702,00.html). Serveral weeks after the incident, the IDF arrested Fatah activists from Nablus, who believed to be behind other children suicide bombings.

On May 29, 2004, The New York Times reported Israeli allegations that the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were using children to recruit classmates as suicide bombers. One child, Nasser Awartani, 15 of Nablus allegedly recruited four of his classmates, one of whom the Shin Bet report on Awartani claimed was Hussam Abdo [21] (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/international/middleeast/30teen.html).

On June 16, 2004, two girls - aged 14 and 15 were arrest by the IDF for plotting a suicide bombing. [22] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/439981.html) According to IDF statement, the two minors were recurited by Tanzim (Fatah's armed wing) activists, guided by Hizbullah. [23] (http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=32081.EN) On July 3, the Israeli security forces have thwarted a suicide bombing which should have been carried by a 16-years-old Muataz Takhsin Karini. Karini and two of his operators were arrested, while a 12 kg explosive belt was detonated safely by Israeli EOD crew. [24] (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=446940&contrassID=2&subContrassID=21&sbSubContrassID=0) On June 5, IDF forces detonated two explosive belts concealed in schoolbags. [25] (http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=9415)[26] (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//566314) On July 14 the Shin Bet arrested in Kfar Maskha a suicide bomber. The bomber was identified as 17-year-old Ahmed Bushkar from Nablus. [27] (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//571353)

On August 7, 2004, a 15 year-old Palestinian was killed while trying to launch an anti-tank missile on Rafiah Yam settlement in the Gaza Strip. The Israeli Defence Forces returned fire and hit the missile, and he was apparently was killed by the explosion. Later that day, in an attempt to sabotage the Israeli Gaza Strip Barrier, one Palestinian was killed and a 16-year-old teen was arrested. An IED explosive charge was found nearby. [28] (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2959268,00.html)

On September 23, 2004, a day before Yom Kippur, the Shin Bet and the Israeli police captured a 15-year-old suicide bomber and a 7 kg explosive belt in Dir-Hana village in the Western Galilee. The 15-year-old was a part of joint terrorist cell of Tanzim and Islamic Jihad from Yamon village near Jenin. The four were Palestinians who worked illegally in Israel. The 15-year-old teenager was paid 1000 Shekels in order to blow himself up in Afula. [29] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/481217.html) , [30] (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/481214.html)

According to a Shabak report published on September 26, 2004 about 292 Palestinian minors were involved in terrorism. [31] (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=482489&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0),(DOC, Hebrew) (http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/final/final.doc)

On the fourth quarter of 2004, Nablus is still continue to be the center for the recruitment of child suicide bombers:. On September 27, 2004, a 15-year-old suspected suicide bomber was arrested in Nablus. [32] (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//604999). On October 28, Ayub Maaruf, a 16-years old Fatah suicide bomber, was arrested near Nablus along with his operator. [33] (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/806/648.html)

On November 1, 16-year-old Aamer Alfar blew himself in Tel Aviv's Carmel Market, killing 3 Israelis, in a suicide bombing that was claimed by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Alfar's mother and father condemned what they saw as the exploitation of their son:

"God will curse those who recruited Amar. I had heard the stories about recruiting children in Nablus but I didn't think they were true... Yes, it is difficult here for everyone because of the occupation, and life in Nablus is intolerable, but children should not be exploited in this way." [34] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/496569.html)
On November 4, a 15-year-old suicide bomber was arrested in Nablus. [35] (http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11529)

[edit]
Incidents in 2005
On February 3, Mahmoud Tabouq, a 15 or 16 year-old Palestinian, was arrested at the Hawara checkpoint near Nablus carrying a bag containing an explosive belt, an improvised gun, and 20 bullets. The belt was detonated safely by a Magav bomb squad.(Haaretz) (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/535850.html) , (video) (http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=37529.EN)

On April 12, a 15-year Palestinian boy, identified as Hassan Hashash, was caught in Hawara checkpoint, hiding five pipe bombs under his coat. He tried to ignite them with a match when the soldiers apprehended him. Later he was disarmed, and sappers detonated the bombs safely. Family members of Hashash suggested that he deilberately carried bombs into IDF checkpoint in order to be arrested and study for the "Bagrut" final exams in the Israeli jail.[36] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/564145.html), [37] (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3071736,00.html) A week later, another Palestinian youth (aged 17) caught carrying explosives in Beit Furik checkpoint. [38] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/568452.html)

On April 27 two Palestinian teenagers, both aged 15 (other souces cite their as 12 and 13), were arrested in a checkpoint near Jenin after 11 explosive charges were found on them. One teenager was recruited by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the second by the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. The two told interrogators that they had been acting as couriers for terrorists, but security forces suspect they planned to get close to the soldier and then detonate the charges. [39] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/569675.html), [40]

[Beirut]

Sorry not to respond sooner. Thank you for the numbers. Obviously one is too many, twenty-nine is outrageous. The Palestinians will certainly pay the price in years to come when this strategy is regreted with the full force of hindsight.

As to the Israeli killing of six hundred and fifty-two children, and the injuring of over ten thousand, one wonders as to the connection between these numbers and the numbers of Palestinian suicide bombers under eighteen. If a sixteen year-old Palestinian sees his friends being shot wholesale by the Israelis, is it any wonder he'll want to kill as many Israelis as possible by whatever means possible?

On the othe hand, when the Israelis see sixteen year-olds wearing C4, is it any wonder they'll be predisposed to shooting kids?

If shooting begets bombing begets shooting begets more bombing, how does one assign responsibility, place blame and look to repair the situation? For my part, it all comes down to Israel getting out of Palestine. It's nonsense for the Israelis to wonder when the violence will stop when they are acting so outrageously, so brutally, with such casual disregerad for life and contempt for an entire people, that they are willing to keep generation after generation in prison camps, bereft of hope and the very basics of life.

It must pointed out again and again to those who would use the suicide bombings as an excuse for Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, that the Israelis were killing and torturing and imprisoning Palestinians for decades before the Intifada and the suicide bombings. The Intifada is the result of brutal Israeli oppression and apartheid, not the other way around.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It must pointed out again and again to those who would use the suicide bombings as an excuse for Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, that the Israelis were killing and torturing and imprisoning Palestinians for decades before the Intifada and the suicide bombings. The Intifada is the result of brutal Israeli oppression and apartheid, not the other way around.

The present Intifada is the result of the Palestinians turning down the camp david peace plan and instead going to war if thats what you call it. The Palestinians prior to that were better off then most of their arab neighbors. It is only their indescritions that drive the Israelis to respond. The Israelis have nothing to gain by oppressing them. Its a result of brutal Palestinian tactics not the other way around.


Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld, Director the Center for the Study of Corruption and the Rule of Law (CSC) NYC

April 16, 2002
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27253

Arafat's corruption
By Rachel Ehrenfeld
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

Posted: April 16, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern

We all know that the Palestinians deserve better. But there is no chance until the world confronts a major problem: the immense corruption of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. Overlooked is the fact that Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza demonstrated against Arafat and his cronies just before the intifada began. And as many now realize, Arafat launched the intifada to distract everyone's attention from these very demonstrations.

Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority's communications minister, told a PLO rally in the Ein Hilwe refugee camp in South Lebanon on March 9, 2001, that Arafat and PA had planned the current intifada during July 2000. Al-Faluji's statement was backed by Fatah Central Committee member Sakhr Habash, who told the PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, "In accordance with what brother Abu Ammar [Arafat] said, it became clear to the Fatah movement that the next stage necessitates
preparation for confrontation."

Shortly after the current intifada began, Arab donor countries pledged to give $1 billion to the Palestinian Authority to ease the economic hardship of the Palestinian people. However, the Arab donors' past experience with money given to Arafat prompted them to demand in a letter to Arafat that was leaked to Ha'aretz, the Israeli daily, that "Chairman Arafat show complete transparency in the funds" and a detailed report on how it was spent. Arafat and the Palestinian Authority declined to comply, and the Arab donors suspended the transfer of the money "for fear that the money will end up in the wrong pockets."

Now that Arafat became the lightning rod for both radical Muslim terrorists and Arab/Muslim corrupt and dictatorial regimes, hundred of millions of dollars, especially from the Saudis and Saddam Hussein, is pouring in # not to alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people, but to go to Arafat, thereby ensuring that the Palestinians continue to kill themselves and as many Israelis as possible.

Igniting the latest intifada has enabled Arafat to portray the economic decline in the territories as "sacrifices" needed to mobilize against the "Zionist enemy." To further hide the misuse of funds and corruption, Arafat ordered the kidnapping of Jawar al-Rusien, the PLO's former trusted accountant, who had had a falling out with Arafat. On April 20, 2001, according to British and Israeli media reports, al-Rusien was kidnapped by armed men from his home in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab
Emirates and flown handcuffed on Arafat's plane to Gaza. His whereabouts were unknown until Arafat's aides admitted holding him "because he failed to return
money he borrowed."

Arafat pleads poverty, yet he controls billions of dollars in assets. For him, the access to his fortune is a cellphone call away. For his people, the only way to receive money is to respond to Arafat's urging and strap a bomb-belt over their belly and, with his blessing, blow themselves up.

Before the Oslo accord, in 1990, the CIA estimated that the PLO had between $8 billion and $14 billion worth of assets generated from a 5 percent tax on every Palestinian working in Arab countries. However, according to a 1993 British National Criminal Intelligence Service report published on the eve of the famous "handshake" on the White House lawn, most of the PLO's assets originated from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc."

The London Daily Telegraph on Dec. 6, 1999, revealed that computer hackers had broken the security code of the PLO's computer system. The hackers discovered records of about $8 billion the PLO held in numbered bank accounts in New York City, Geneva and Zurich. In addition, it held smaller secret accounts in North Africa, Europe and Asia.

The records obtained showed the PLO secretly owned shares in the Tokyo and Paris stock exchanges and expensive real estate in London, Paris and other European capitals. They listed companies that fronted for the PLO, stocks the PLO held in Mercedes-Benz, shares in the national airlines of the Maldives and Guinea-Bissau and other holdings of about $50 billion for the year 2000 (up from $32 billion in 1998).

Arafat has successfully claimed that Israel causes the economic hardship suffered by the Palestinian people. But before Yasser Arafat and the PLO took control over the refugee camps and the territories in May of 1994, the Palestinian per capita GDP in the West Bank was about 40 percent of the $8,000 Israeli per capita GDP for the same period, and in the 1990s, the economic development of the West Bank exceeded that of Israel. If that trend would have been allowed to continue, the West Bank's GDP would have reached at least $7,000 by now, similar to Saudi Arabia, and 700 percent higher than the average in other oil-devoid Arab states such as Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Morocco.

According to surveys by the research center of the Israeli Yad Tabenkin, the West Bank per capita gross domestic product before the Oslo accord in 1993 was approximately $3,500, and in Gaza, about $2,800. Now, the per capita GDP for both territories is around $1,300. Soon after the current intifada began, U.N. Envoy Terje Roed-Larsen said that 30 percent of the Palestinian people live on less than $2.10 a day. Now, they have much less, unless one of them blows himself up to kill more Israelis.

Arafat's past promises that he will continue to use terror and corruption to stay in power. He does not want to give peace a chance because in peacetime the Palestinians working in Israel will earn many times over those working under Mr. Arafat's corrupt leadership in the West Bank, and especially in Gaza, where they will continue to earn a pittance. This will lead, as it already has, to demands to end corruption, thus, threatening Arafat's regime.

Until Arafat is gone, the Palestinian people have no hope for a better future, and the world has no hope for any peace in the Middle East.

Thank god hes gone . This also proves your point that all Palestinians arent all barbarians.

[Beirut]

The present Intifada is the result of the Palestinians turning down the camp david peace plan and instead going to war if thats what you call it. The Palestinians prior to that were better off then most of their arab neighbors. It is only their indescritions that drive the Israelis to respond. The Israelis have nothing to gain by oppressing them. Its a result of brutal Palestinian tactics not the other way around.


Well good morning,

How do you qualify better off? Are you saying a man in prison making a dollar a day is better off than a free man making fifty cents?

The Israelis oppress and imprison the Palestinians because they want their land and their water. How else do you explain Israel controling 80% of the aquafiers in Gaza while the Israeli population there hovers around 8000 while the Palestinians number over a million? How do you explain Israeli settlers there having access to all the water they want while the local population gets less than UN daily norms? How do you explain Israel telling the Palestinians what food they can and cannot grow? How do you explain the Israelis forbiding Palestinians from manufacturing goods? It is the brutal oppression that has gone on for decades that has lead to the violence.

And, if as you say, the Palestinians had it so good and all was peaceful prior to the Intifada, why didn't the Israels get out of the occupied territories then? They won't leave when times are good and they won't leave when times are bad. WWII only lasted six years but will Israel have to subjegate the Palestinians for sixty? This has everything to do with power and control over people and resources. It is not a war against terrorism that keeps Israel in Palestine, it is the same thing as what kept the white South Africans using apartheid - control. It's all about control through violence. It's all about theft.

This is all about oppression for power and profit. The Israelis oppress the Palestinians because they want to oppress the Palestinians.

[Tribesman]

The present Intifada is the result of the Palestinians turning down the camp david peace plan
Neither side accepted the Camp David peace plan , so why do you only blame one side for failing to reach an agreement ?
If two parties cannot reach an agreement then how is it only one parties fault?
The main points that could not be agreed were ; Compliance with UN resolutions and international conventions on the refugees right of return (cannot have that can we as that would mean that the Jews were a minority in the land they hold just as they were at the time of independance ~;) ). Whose land would be used as the buffer-zone . Control over and access through the buffer-zone .Soveriegnty over safe access routes . Continuity and integrity of territory . Annexation of land . Amount of land to be included in the land swap scheme . Water rights . Trade rights . Compensation rates for citizens affected by transfers . The date for commencement of the Land-leasing scheme and the amount of land to be included in the scheme .
Oh , I almost forgot , the status of Jerusalem , shouldn't forget that little problem should we ~D
You talk as though it was a done deal that one side refused to sign up to , that is not the case , it was a deadlock that neither side would sign up to .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You talk as though it was a done deal that one side refused to sign up to , that is not the case , it was a deadlock that neither side would sign up to

Only one side walked away and started killing people. It was coming close to a done deal


Neither side accepted the Camp David peace plan , so why do you only blame one side for failing to reach an agreement ?


Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat said on Tuesday that the Palestinians accept the peace plan proposed by former U.S. President Bill Clinton two years ago at Camp David in the United States.

Arafat told reporters after meeting with bereaved Israeli families at his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah that the Palestinians have never rejected Clinton's proposal to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Arafat also accused both the former Israeli government under Prime Minister Ehud Barak and the current one under Ariel Sharon of rejecting the Clinton plan.



Israel said that Arafat was the one who rejected what had been offered to the Palestinians at Camp David and such an offer had never been proposed to the Palestinians before.

A Palestinian Intifada (uprising) erupted in September 2000 after Israel and the Palestinians traded accusations that the other side rejected what had been offered at Camp David.

More than 1,500 Palestinians have been killed and hundreds of thousands more injured during the uprising which is still raging in the Middle East.

Meanwhile, more than 500 Israelis have been killed and thousands of others injured.



Insider Reflects on Failure of 2000 Camp David Summit
(September 13, 2001)

Shlomo Ben-Ami was Israel's top negotiator during the July 2000 Camp David summit. There has been much speculation and analysis about the reasons for the summit's failure. However, first-hand accounts of what went on behind closed doors have been limited. Ben-Ami, who is a history professor and whose performance at Camp David advanced him to the official post of Foreign Minister in Ehud Barak's government, wrote a detailed, day-by-day account of what went on at Camp David. In the following excerpts from an interview he gave in Ha'aretz (September 13, 2001), Ben-Ami reflects on the summit and his subsequent conclusions about Palestinian intentions.

Question: Shlomo Ben-Ami, what were the assumptions that guided you and theprime minister, Ehud Barak, when you set out, in the spring of 2000, toterminate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Answer: "We had a number of working assumptions, but I think the mostimportant of them was the basic assumption that has been shared by theAmericans, the Europeans and the Israeli center-left for years: that Oslocreated a rational order in the Middle East based on give-and-take, which inthe future would lead to an acceptable compromise; that in 1993 aquasi-state of the Palestinians was established, in terms of orderlyinternational relations. In retrospect, this turned out to be a mistakenassumption, It turned out that for [Palestinian leader Yasser] Arafat it wasa huge camouflage net behind which he fomented, and continues to foment,political pressure and terrorism in different dosages in order to underminethe very idea of two states for two nations."

...

Question: Didn't the Palestinians make a counterproposal?

Answer: "No. And that is the heart of the matter. Never, in the negotiations between us and the Palestinians, was there a Palestinian counterproposal. There never was and there never will be. So the Israeli negotiator always finds himself in a dilemma: Either I get up and walk out because these guys aren't ready to put forward proposals of their own, or I make another concession. In the end, even the most moderate negotiator reaches a point where he understands that there is no end to it."

...

Question: Is this the origin of the Camp David formula for a territorial exchange: 9 percent of the territories in return for 1 percent of sovereign Israeli territory?

Answer: "That formulation was never crystallized in a binding document. But from the beginning of the second week at Camp David, it was in the air. It was our working assumption. And it was based on what Arafat had said. Not on some canton scheme of Israel's, but on explicit remarks by Arafat. I remember that on the 17th, I went to Ehud's cabin and I ran into Clinton, who was just coming out of the cabin, and he told me the same: that Arafat's message is readiness for 8 percent with a token territorial swap in the GazaStrip."

...

Question: Still, in the wake of this dynamic, the Camp David conference became the Jerusalem conference. Isn't it the case that you didn't reach a binding territorial agreement, you didn't formulate a solution for the refugee question, all you did was divide Jerusalem?

Answer: "That is not completely accurate. It's true that there was a regression at Camp David on the question of the refugees, but the feeling was that there was flexibility on the territorial issue - that the peace would not stand or fall on this issue. And in the security group, there were very positive discussions that advanced the process. The concept of a multinational force was crystallized. I also do not accept the argument that

we divided the city at Camp David. The decision on the division of Jerusalem came only with the acceptance of Clinton's parameters five months later.

"You have to understand one thing: we at Camp David were moving toward a division in practice but with the aspiration of reaching an agreement that didn't look like a division. The big problem there was that the Palestinians weren't willing to help us with that. They weren't ready for any face-saving formulation for the Israelis. Not on the issue of the Temple Mount, not on sovereignty, not on anything. Arafat did not agree to anything that was nota complete division at Camp David. Therefore, even Bob Malley, whom everyone now likes to quote, told me at some stage that the Palestinians simply want to humiliate us. `They want to humiliate you' were his words." [The reference is to an article by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley - a member of the U.S. peace team and a special assistant to President Clinton - "Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors," The New York Review of Books, August 9,2001.]

Question: I understand that there was a stage at which Barak astonished everyone by agreeing to divide the Old City of Jerusalem into two quarters under Israeli sovereignty and two quarters under Palestinian sovereignty. Did he do that on his own or was it a joint decision made by the entireIsraeli team?

Answer: "As I told you, I suggested that a special regime be introduced in the Old City. In the wake of that discussion, some time later, the president put forward a two-two proposal, meaning a clear division of sovereignty. In

a conversation with the president, Ehud agreed that that would be a basis for discussion. I remember walking in the fields with Martin Indyk [of the State Department] that night and both of us saying that Ehud was nuts. We didn't understand how he could even have thought of agreeing. Afterward I wrote in my diary that everyone thinks that Amnon [Lipkin-] Shahak and I are pushing Barak to the left, but the truth is that he was the one who pushed us leftward. At that stage - this was the start of the second week of the meeting - he was far more courageous than we were. Truly courageous. Clinton told me a few times: I have never met such a courageous person."

...

Question: So it was over this that Camp David collapsed, the Palestinian rejection of an American proposal on Jerusalem that you found inadequate?

Answer: "No. Camp David collapsed over the fact that they refused to get into the game. They refused to make a counterproposal. No one demanded that they give a positive response to that particular proposal of Clinton's. Contrary to all the nonsense spouted by the knights of the left, there was no ultimatum. What was being asked of the Palestinians was far more elementary: that they put forward, at least once, their own counterproposal. That they not just say all the time `That's not good enough' and wait for us to make more concessions. That's why the president sent [CIA director George] Tenet to Arafat that night - in order to tell him that it would be worth his while to think it over one more time and not give an answer until the morning. But Arafat couldn't take it anymore. He missed the applause of the masses in Gaza."

...

"But when all is said and done, Camp David failed because Arafat refused to put forward proposals of his own and didn't succeed in conveying to us the feeling that at some point his demands would have an end. One of the important things we did at Camp David was to define our vital interests in the most concise way. We didn't expect to meet the Palestinians halfway, and not even two-thirds of the way. But we did expect to meet them at some point. The whole time we waited to see them make some sort of movement in the face of our far-reaching movement. But they didn't. The feeling was that they were constantly trying to drag us into some sort of black hole of more and more concessions without it being at all clear where all the concessions were leading, what the finish line was."

... I remember that at a certain point, I proposed to Arafat that we delay the discussion on Jerusalem for two years. `Not even for two hours,' Arafat said, waving two of his fingers."

...

Question: Are you suggesting that the Intifada was a calculated move by the Palestinians to extricate them from their political and diplomatic hardships?

Answer: "No. I am not attributing that kind of Machiavellian scheme to them. But I remember that when we were at Camp David, Saeb Erekat said that we had until September 13. And I remember that when I visited Mohammed Dahlan and from his office spoke with Marwan Barghouti, he also said that if we didn't reach an agreement by the middle of September, it would not be good. There was a tone of threat in his words that I didn't like. So, when you look at the course of events and see that the violence erupted exactly two weeks after September 13 [the seventh anniversary of the Oslo accords], it makes you think. One thing is certain: the Intifada absolutely saved Arafat."

..."By September we were talking about 7 percent [of the West Bank to be retained by Israel] in return for 2 [percent of sovereign Israeli territory to be transferred to the Palestinians]. I think we also dropped the demand for sovereignty in the Jordan Rift Valley."...

Question: Throughout this whole period, didn't the Palestinians present maps of their own? Was there no Palestinian geographical proposal?

Answer: "They did not present maps at all. Not before Taba. But at Camp david I did chance to see some sort of Palestinian map. It was a map that

reflected a concession of less than 2 percent on their part in return for a territorial swap in a 1:1 ratio. But the territories they wanted from us were not in the Halutza dunes, they wanted them next to the West Bank. I remember that according to their map, Kochav Yair, for example, was supposed to be included in the territory of the Palestinian state; they demanded sovereignty over Kochav Yair."

Question: When the talks resumed in November-December, as the violence raged, but with elections for prime minister in the offing, in what area did they make progress?

Answer: "Mainly on the Jerusalem question. By this stage, we had agreed to the division of the city and to full Palestinian sovereignty on Haramal-Sharif, but we insisted that some sort of attachment of ours to the Temple Mount be recognized. I remember that when we held talks with Yasser Abed Rabbo at Bolling Air Force Base, I raised the following idea without consulting anyone: the Palestinians would have sovereignty on the Temple Mount, but they would undertake not to conduct excavations there because the place was sacred to the Jews. The Palestinians agreed not to excavate, but under no circumstances would they agree to give us the minimal statement,`because the site is sacred to the Jews.'

"What particularly outraged me on that occasion wasn't only the fact that they refused, but the way in which they refused: out of a kind of total contempt, an attitude of dismissiveness and arrogance. At that moment I grasped they are really not Sadat [Egyptian president Anwar Sadat, who signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979]. That they were not willing to move toward our position even at the emotional and symbolic level. At the deepest level, they are not ready to recognize that we have any kind of title here."

Question: Three days later, on December 23, 2000, at the end of the Bolling talks, Clinton convened you again and presented his narrow parameters. What were they?

Answer: "Ninety-seven percent: 96 percent of the West Bank [to the palestinians] plus 1 percent of sovereign Israeli territory, or 94 percent of the West Bank plus three percent of sovereign Israeli territory. However, because Clinton also introduced into this formulation the concept of the safe passage route - over which Israeli sovereignty would be ethereal - it could be argued that the Palestinians got almost 100 percent. Clinton constructed his proposal in such a way that if the Palestinians' answer was positive, they would be able to present the solution to their public as a solution of 100 percent."

Question: And Jerusalem?

Answer: "As the reports said: what is Jewish is Israeli, what is Arab is Palestinian. The Temple Mount would be under full Palestinian sovereignty, with Israel getting the Western Wall and the Holy of Holies. But Clinton, in his proposal, did not make reference to the `sacred basin' - the whole area outside the Old City wall that includes the City of David and the Tombs of the Prophets on the road to the Mount of Olives. We demanded that area, in which there are hardly any Arabs, but the Palestinians refused. During the night, there was a very firm phone call between Barak and Clinton on this subject, because we were afraid he would decide against us. As a result of that call, the subject remained open. Clinton did not refer to it."

Question: What about the refugees?

Answer: "Here Clinton tried to square the circle. He went toward the palestinians to the very end of the farthest limit of what we could accept. His formulation was that `the two sides recognize the right of the refugees to return to historic Palestine' or `to return to their homeland,' but on the other hand, he made it clear that `there is no specific right of return to Israel.' We were pleased that he talked about a two-state solution and that the Palestinian state was the homeland of the Palestinian people and israel the home of the Jewish people.

"The mechanism he referred to was more or less that of Stockholm. He obligated a certain absorption of refugees in Israel, but subject to Israel's sovereign laws and its absorption policy."

Question: What about the security arrangements and demilitarization?

Answer: "We insisted that the Palestinian state be demilitarized. The president suggested a softer term: a `non-militarized state.' He also asserted that we would have a significant military presence in the Rift Valley for three years and a symbolic presence at defined sites for three more years. We were given three early-warning stations for a 10-year period with the presence of Palestinian liaison officers."

...

Question: What was the Israeli reaction to Clinton's parameters? Did Barak accept them wholeheartedly?

Answer: ..."The proposal was difficult for us to accept. No one came out dancing andsinging, and Ehud especially was perturbed. At the same time, three days later, the cabinet decided on a positive response to Clinton. All the ministers supported it, with the exception of Matan Vilnai and Ra'anan Cohen. I informed the Americans that Israel's answer was yes."

Question: And the Palestinians?

Answer: "Arafat wasn't in any hurry. He went to Mubarak and then to all kinds of inter-Arab meetings and dragged his feet. He didn't even return Clinton's calls. The whole world, and I mean the whole world, put tremendous pressure on him, but he refused to say yes. During those 10 days there was hardly any international leader who didn't call him - from the Duke of Liechtenstein to the president of China. But Arafat wouldn't be budged. He stuck to his evasive methods. He's like one of those stealth planes. Finally, very late, his staff conveyed to the White House a reply that contained big noes and small yeses. Bruce Reidell, from the National Security Council, told me that we shouldn't get it wrong, that there should be no misunderstandings on our part: Arafat in fact said no."

Question: But didn't Israel also have reservations?

Answer: "Yes. We sent the Americans a document of several pages containing our reservations. But as far as I recall, they were pretty minor and dealt mainly with security arrangements and deployment areas and control over the passages. There was also clarification concerning our sovereignty over the temple Mount. There was no doubt that our reply was positive. In order to remove any doubts, I called Arafat on December 29, at Ehud's instructions, and told him that Israel accepted the parameters and that any further discussion should be only within the framework of the parameters and on how to implement them."

...

Question: Is it the case that Israel would have to uproot about a hundred settlements according to the new map [Israel prepared for meetings in Taba after Camp David]?

Answer: "I don't know the exact number. But we are talking about uprooting many dozens of settlements. In my view, that map also fails to meet the goal we set ourselves and to which Clinton agreed - 80 percent of the settlers in sovereign Israeli territory."

Question: Did the Palestinians accept this map?

Answer: "No. They presented a counter-map that totally eroded the three already shrunken [settlement] blocs and effectively they voided the whole bloc concept of content. According to their map, only a few isolated settlements would remain, which would be dependent on thin strings of narrow access roads. A calculation we made showed that all they agreed to give us was 2.34 percent."

...

Question: Shlomo Ben-Ami, you and Ehud Barak set out on a journey to the bowels of the earth, as it were, to the very heart of the conflict. What did you find?

Answer: "I think that we found a few difficult things. First of all, regarding Arafat, we discovered that he does not have the ability to convey to his Israeli interlocutors that the process of making concessions has an end. His strategy is one of conflict."

Question: Are you saying that he is not a partner?

Answer: "Arafat is the leader of the Palestinians. I cannot change thisfact; it is their disaster. He is so loyal to his truth that he cannotcompromise it. But his truth is the truth of the Islamic ethos, the ethos ofrefugees and victimization. This truth does not allow him to end hisnegotiations with Israel unless Israel breaks its neck. So in thisparticular aspect, Arafat is not a partner. Worse, Arafat is a strategicthreat; he endangers peace in the Middle East and in the world."

Question: So he still does not recognize Israel's right to exist?

Answer: "Arafat's concession vis-a-vis Israel at Oslo was a formalconcession. Morally and conceptually, he didn't recognize Israel's right toexist. He doesn't accept the idea of two states for two peoples. He may beable to make some sort of partial, temporary settlement with us - though Ihave doubts about that, too - but at the deep level, he doesn't accept us.Neither he nor the Palestinian national movement accept us."

Question: Your criticism goes beyond Arafat personally to include also thePalestinian national movement as a whole?

Answer: "Yes. Intellectually, I can understand their logic. I understandthat from their point of view, they ceded 78 percent [of historic Palestine]at Oslo, so the rest is theirs. I understand that from their point of view,the process is one of decolonization, and therefore they are not going tomake a compromise with us, just as the residents of Congo would notcompromise with the Belgians.

"But when all is said and done, after eight months of negotiations, I reachthe conclusion that we are in a confrontation with a national movement inwhich there are serious pathological elements. It is a very sad movement, avery tragic movement, which at its core doesn't have the ability to setitself positive goals.

"At the end of the process, it is impossible not to form the impression that the Palestinians don't want a solution as much as they want to place Israelin the dock of the accused. They want to denounce our state more than theywant their own state. At the deepest level they have a negative ethos.This is why unlike Zionism, they are unable to compromise...."

[Beirut]

Only one side walked away and started killing people. It was coming close to a done deal

Oh I think Israel plenty of killing as well. More than the Palestinians. Actually, they always kill more than the Palestinians.

"This is why unlike Zionism, they are unable to compromise...."

There's a statement to ring people's necks with. Palestinain necks that is. Read about Hertzl and Ben-Gurion and their version of Zionist compromise. Their compromise was the Zionists take over all of the land and the Palestinians get nothing. From Day 1 the Zionists made it clear they wanted everything for themselves and admitted that the UN partition of Palestine was only temporary until they could build an army and take over the rest of the land.That sure as shoot isn't the Sesame Street version of sharing I was brought up with.

I'm still curious how the Palestinians, being jailed, tortured, and subjegated, were better off then the other Arabs.

And why, when things were so good for them, as you said, and things were more peacefull, didn't Israel get out of the occupied territories? If they won't leave when things are good and they won't leave when things are bad, well maybe they just don't want to leave.

Theft and control. It's all about theft and control.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh I think Israel plenty of killing as well. More than the Palestinians. Actually, they always kill more than the Palestinians.

Name one Palestinian killed while the camp david talks were being held. They kill mpore Palestinians because they have an army for crying out loud. Should the Israelis try to make the losses even?


There's a statement to ring people's necks with. Palestinain necks that is. Read about Hertzl and Ben-Gurion and their version of Zionist compromise. Their compromise was the Zionists take over all of the land and the Palestinians get nothing. From Day 1 the Zionists made it clear they wanted everything for themselves and admitted that the UN partition of Palestine was only temporary until they could build an army and take over the rest of the land.That sure as shoot isn't the Sesame Street version of sharing I was brought up with.

How long ago was this? Is it relevant today? Have you ever read the PLO or Hamas manifestos? Anf you have the balls to mention some old jews who are long gone and ancient history? If they want it all theres nothing agian from stoppong them. What stops them from just claiming the west bank as their own?
Earlier someone asked when the drive for nationhood started and I mistakenly said not until Israel took over the place. However the PLO started in 1964. They had only one thing in mind. The total destruction of Israel.


And why, when things were so good for them, as you said, and things were more peacefull,

Compare the economy of Palestine compared to its neighbors before the recent intafadah for your answer.

[Beirut]

Name one Palestinian killed while the camp david talks were being held. They kill mpore Palestinians because they have an army for crying out loud. Should the Israelis try to make the losses even?

No, they shouldn't try to make things even. When you're good at something you might as well express to the fullest it don't you think.



How long ago was this? Is it relevant today? Have you ever read the PLO or Hamas manifestos? Anf you have the balls to mention some old jews who are long gone and ancient history? If they want it all theres nothing agian from stoppong them. What stops them from just claiming the west bank as their own?

Well, not the balls, more the ovaries. You did know I was a women didn't you? :kiss2: You should be more sensitive to my situation.

Besides, you shouldn't get huffy at me from bringing up Zionists when you yourself brought up Zionism first. I hope you're not going to get mad at me every time I respond to one of your statements simply because I'm responding to one of your statements.

What stops them from taking the West Bank? The American Bank. Certainly not any sense of justice or morality they might harbour themselves, that's for sure.


Compare the economy of Palestine compared to its neighbors before the recent intafadah for your answer.

Yep, just like that guy who makes $5 a day in jail stamping license plates while his buddy on the outside is unemployed. I'll bet he wishes he was in jail too, regardless of the beatings, torture and humiliation.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No, they shouldn't try to make things even. When you're good at something you might as well express to the fullest it don't you think.

What happened to the Israelis killing Palestinians before the infatadah?


Well, not the balls, more the ovaries. You did know I was a women didn't you? You should be more sensitive to my situation.

Are you serious?


Besides, you shouldn't get huffy at me from bringing up Zionists when you yourself brought up Zionism first. I hope you're not going to get mad at me every time I respond to one of your statements simply because I'm responding to one of your statements.

I never get mad at you. Your always a gentleman. At least I thought you were.


What stops them from taking the West Bank? The American Bank. Certainly not any sense of justice or morality they might harbour themselves, that's for sure.

So you credit america then for saving the Palestinians yet most arabs blame us for Israel. The Israelis put up with this just to get money from us huh? The point is if they had wanted to keep Gaza, the westbank and all of the Golan heights theres never was anything to stop them.


Yep, just like that guy who makes $5 a day in jail stamping license plates while his buddy on the outside is unemployed. I'll bet he wishes he was in jail too, regardless of the beatings, torture and humiliation.

So then they choose to stay there and feel its better off than going to another arab state. That doesnt say much for the rest of the middle east does it? Once more no terror no torture , no beatings no humiliation. Im still gazing at the rubble of your posts on the child suicide bombers. :duel: ~;)

[Papewaio]

Just remember gentle(wo)man that if you can't play nicely in your safe first world existence then you can't expect others to. :balloon2:

[Papewaio]

BTW that and these are pre-emptive beers and hug strike ~:cheers: ~:grouphug:

Now continue fencing :duel: and set the standard in polite :bow: debate.

[Beirut]

What happened to the Israelis killing Palestinians before the infatadah?

Oh, did I forget to mention that? Sorry. Actually, the Israelis have always been good at killing Palestinians. Thank you for reminding me.

[QUOTE=Gawain of Orkeny]Are you serious?

If i was, I'd be the biggest lesbian in world history. What a life that would have been! :saint:


I never get mad at you. Your always a gentleman. At least I thought you were.

I do try. But my lower-self does surface from time to time.


So you credit america then for saving the Palestinians yet most arabs blame us for Israel. The Israelis put up with this just to get money from us huh? The point is if they had wanted to keep Gaza, the westbank and all of the Golan heights theres never was anything to stop them.

I don't credit the Americans with saving the Palestinians really, just for helping to keep them imprisoned instead of executed.

The Israelis "put up with" a lot just to get money from you. And F-16s and F-15s and high technology and everything else you hand to them on a silver plate.


So then they choose to stay there and feel its better off than going to another arab state. That doesnt say much for the rest of the middle east does it? Once more no terror no torture , no beatings no humiliation. Im still gazifg at the rubble of your posts on the child suicide bombers. :duel: ~;)

I don't think it's reasonable to blame a man for his situation because he refuses to leave his home. I would be more apt to blame the person who invaded his home and made it unliveable. Besides, I could care less about most of the Middle East. What I care about is people being given the chance to be who they are. The Palestinians have never been given the chance to be anything but prisoners. How can they be expected to better themselves when another generation of subjugation is all they have to look forward to?

I am uncertain as to your gadzification regarding the rubble of my suicide bomber post. Which part of the rubble is gadzifying?

[Beirut]

Just remember gentle(wo)man that if you can't play nicely in your safe first world existence then you can't expect others to. :balloon2:

I like my safe First World existence. It's warm and snuggly. :balloon2: (Thanks vets!)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well thats the problem with the written word. You dont get all the inflections of the voice. I ment no offense to Beruit. I have nothing but admiration for his or her ~:) stance on this matter, misguided as it is ~;) I certainly have sympathy for the mahority of Palestinians who would just like to live in peace and prosper. If the Israelis were willing to make them all citizens would you approve of that? It would give the Palestinians a majority would it not? Whats the differnece what the name of your country is? Its strange to me that most of you who back the Palestinians are also against nationalism yet thats whats driving these people. Im sure that Israel doesnt want to make them all Israelis for the very reason I mentioned. This leaves them with 3 choices as far as I can see.

1 Kill and or imprison all Palestinians
2 Drive all Palestinians out of the occupied territories
3 Learn to live in peace with them.

I believe their only real choice in the end is the latter and I also think they realise it also. I am sure theirs nothing they would like better than a democratic peacful neighbor but not an Islamo facist one bent on the destruction of Israel. Israel holds all the cards. Its up to the Palestinians to compromise. If they had accepted the camp david accords , it may not have been perfect but they would be far , far better off than they are today. Who knows if they behave themselves im sure Israel would be prepared to give them more.

[Kraxis]

-nothing-

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Honestly Gawain, would you leave the US for Mexico (and mind you never return) if Russia came and took over? Personally I wouldn't leave my country and I would in fact try to fight them

Because you have a country. There never was a country or peoples called Palestinians until recently. They didnt cry for their country while Jordan was in control because their the same peoples. Any other county in Israels place would have just kept all the land they took in their wars.


Now this is issue is much more complex than that, but we can't expect people to simply pack up and leave their homes because they got a nasty neighbour. It doesn't work like that.

Did I say they should. I said the settlers are wrong to be there.


Personally I think the area will stay inflamed for many years to come, in fact I doubt I will ever see the day where peace puts it's evil claws into the area.

Only the end of terror by the Palestinians can bring peace here. The onus is on them. Palestine is the whole war on terror in minature and brougt to a head. Until the Palestinians like the other Muslims reign in their own there will be no peace.

[Kraxis]

Just pointing out that my edit was not an attempt to flee, rather as the point was already discussed while I read and posted (it takes some time to read the entire interview) I found my post a little redundant.

So my property does not count? Only my nationality? Can't agree there.
But yes there were a people called Palestianians. The Romans created the name out of the Philistines to find a more ancient name for the area and thus be able to kick out the Jews. Or whatever they eventually did. Now that was 2000 years ago, and over time people do get closer contacts with their region. Previously they didn't have a named area and just went about as tribes, fighting each other. But the conquest of the Muslims brought a sort of super-tribal (meaning above-tribal) unity to them. That was the point the Palestianians came about.

Since I directed that post towards your post at 00:42 today it certainly seemed that you considered them moving out to be a good way to deal with this. Your more recent post said otherwise and I'm inclied to believe that, as any rational person would prefer that over an exodus.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Romans created the name out of the Philistines to find a more ancient name for the area and thus be able to kick out the Jews.

They named the region Palestine and anyone who lived their be the Jewish ,arab, Turk or any other ethinicty was considered a Palestinian. Everyone who lived in america isnt a citizen of the US. You are falling for Arafats propaganda of naming these people Palestinians as if the name belonged only to them. The original newspaper the Palistine Times was a Jewish Paper. Palastinians refers to a region like N America not a peoples like the indians. The Palestinians are ethnicly no different that the other arabs who live around there and many are in fact originally from thse countries. They havent owned the land for centuries as they would have you believe. As you have said the place was in constant flux with various groups moving in and out.

[Tribesman]

Only one side walked away and started killing people.
Steady Gawain , you seem to be condemning the Israelis there ~D ~D ~D
Never, in the negotiations between us and the Palestinians, was there a Palestinian counterproposal.
Really , then what are those little things that resulted in the non-paper ?
Is this the origin of the Camp David formula for a territorial exchange: 9 percent of the territories in return for 1 percent of sovereign Israeli territory?
Thats funny , the upper limit was 6% , even if you add the further 2% under the land-lease deal it doesn't make 9%
It was a map that reflected a concession of less than 2 percent
Strange , is that the map that shows a concession of 3.1% ?

[Beirut]

Sigh... :embarassed:

Plalistine
Paliastinans
Plestine
Palestinain
Palastnians

Is it really that hard to spell?

Maybe we can discuss Ahmercan aid to Izral for a while. Perhaps Sirya and Sudia Araba could be brought into the discussion as well as Erak, Eran, and Afganestan.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Plalistine
Paliastinans
Plestine
Palestinain
Palastnians

Is it really that hard to spell?

I was obviously exhausted when I posted that. Sheeeeesh. I spell it right fo years and one mess up and your all over me. Come on you can do better than that. There are so many different meanings and peoples called Palestinians its hard to keep track of how to spell them ~D



Maybe we can discuss Ahmercan aid to Izral for a while. Perhaps Sirya and Sudia Araba could be brought into the discussion as well as Erak, Eran, and Afganestan.

You left out Kanada.


Really , then what are those little things that resulted in the non-paper ?

You dont have to put forth a counter proposal to walk out.

[bmolsson]

I found this article on islam and suicide bombers....

Why do they do it, and what does Islam say about their actions?

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors."

- Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)

The dangerous escalation of violence in the world is disturbing to all people of conscience, from September 11 to the Middle East battles, and other random acts of violence perpetrated at innocent civilians.

In the fight against terrorism of all forms, it is important to understand who or what is our enemy. We can only fight against this horror if we understand its causes and motivations. What motivates a person to lash out in this violent, inhumane way? That is something that all of us -- mental health professionals, politicians, and common people -- need to understand, so that we can address the issues more honestly, prevent more violence, and find ways to work towards lasting peace.

In Islam, several things are clear:

Suicide is forbidden.
"O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178). No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people.
The Qur'an admonishes those who oppress others and transgress beyond the bounds of what is right and just. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).
Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
The predominant theme in the Qur'an is forgiveness and peace. Allah (God) is Merciful and Forgiving, and seeks that in His followers. Indeed, most people who spend time on a personal level with ordinary Muslims have found them to be peaceful, honest, hard-working, civic-minded people.

In the Palestinian territories, those who support suicide bombing claim that it is merely a tactic of war in defense of their land and homes. Living under siege, and without the superior weaponry of their opponent, they see it as a heroic act of martyrdom, not suicide. In Israel, these attacks have usually been perpetrated by young men (and less often, women) who have lived their entire lives under humiliating occupation. In their point of view, it is a final act of resistance, stemming from desperation.

"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."

- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)

[bmolsson]

This is from Wikipedia...

During the Crusades, the Knights Templar destroyed one of their own ships, killing 140 Christians in order to kill ten times as many Muslims. Another early example of suicide bombing occurred during the Belgian Revolution, when the Dutch Lt. Jan van Speijk detonated his own ship in the harbour of Antwerp to prevent being captured by Belgians. In World War II, kamikaze pilots acted as human missiles, flying their planes, heavily loaded with explosives, directly into enemy warships. Following World War II, Viet Minh "death volunteers" were used against the French colonial army.

[bmolsson]

Another article....

Published on Saturday, May 14, 2005 by the Guardian/UK
Honor and Martyrdom
Suicide Bombing Isn't as New or Alien as Westerners Imagine

by Madeleine Bunting

One of the most chilling aspects of the Iraqi conflict is that suicide bombings have now become a matter of everyday routine. During April there were 67, a new record. On Wednesday there were no less than five separate suicide attacks across Iraq, killing 71 people and injuring scores of people.

The rate of suicide bombings - the seemingly endless supply of people prepared to blow themselves up - leaves a western audience utterly bewildered. What kind of psychology motivates people to such violent extremes? The incomprehension prompts revulsion that this form of warfare is historically unprecedented and reveals a peculiar, aberrant irrationality - a kind of inhuman madness. All too quickly, Islam is blamed for deluding its believers into martyrdom with promises of 72 virgins; the old prejudices about Islam as a faith uniquely associated with violence and unquestioning belief are fanned into life again.

But such prejudices won't get us very far in trying to unpick which elements of this violent phenomenon are in fact unprecedented and which are not - or to understand why the strategy has been adopted.

There are two obvious factors. First, the plentiful supply of volunteers crossing into Iraq reflects the radicalization of a generation of the newly urbanized, under-employed, fast growing populations of many Muslim countries in the Maghreb and the Middle East. Second, suicide attacks are the single most effective weapon against the vastly superior armed force of the US in their heavily defended camps. Along with more conventional resistance tactics, suicide bombings are helping to cripple Iraqi reconstruction and fueling resentment of the occupation. This has successfully derailed US hubris in a "regional redesign". How else could all these aims have been achieved?

But even while grasping this, suicide bombings still profoundly outrage western sensibility. There are two separate aspects of the current wave: the use of suicide as a tactic of war; and the tendency to deploy it recklessly against soft or civilian targets outside the theater of conflict. The latter is a familiar feature of different forms of terrorism - so nothing much new there. Suicide attacks also have historical precedent; but what does seem new, first in Palestine and now in Iraq, has been the combination of the two and their frequency. It is that particular combination of individual motivation to kill oneself and the cold ruthlessness to stand among the people one is going to kill before detonating oneself which is hardest to understand.

Tracing the history of how suicide has been used as a weapon and as a protest through history offers up many illuminating parallels to what might motivate those who undertake the suicide missions in Iraq. It was the Japanese who made the use of suicide as a military strategy so feared, and the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka in the 1980s who applied it as a technique for assassinations. Both were part of wider military efforts which were not always easily distinguishable from a suicide mission. The line in war between a suicidal mission and a reckless disregard for one's own life can be very blurred.

This was true in the Soviet struggle against the Germans in the second world war. Some Soviet pilots undertook explicit suicide missions to ram bridges in Germany in 1945; many others went into battle knowing they would die, and saw their death as a sacrifice for the "motherland". It is the powerful who determined how such events are understood; while the Japanese and Islamist militants are feared as inhuman, the Soviets are celebrated for their courageous defiance of nazism.

The idea of suicide to serve a set of beliefs is also deeply rooted in history. The staging of the current brilliant production of Julius Caesar in London pointedly refers to Iraq with its US military fatigues and the set of a military warehouse. Several suicides in the final scenes lead to Brutus's poignant comment that swords have been turned "in our own proper entrails". Roman republicanism, imperial Japanese militarism: both elevated suicide as an honorable part of military valor.

Even more closely related to Iraq's suicide bombers is the fascinating description of early Christian martyrdom in Farhad Khosrokhavar's new book, Suicide Bombers. The suicidal recklessness of a large number of early Christians, aimed precisely at bringing about their martyrdom, bewildered and horrified contemporary commentators. But martyrdom was an astonishingly effective propaganda tool designed to inspire awe - and converts. The Greek origin of the word martyr is "witness". Interestingly, it prompted exactly the same sorts of criticism among pagan Romans as today's Islamist militants do in the west: the Christian martyrs were accused of dementia and irrationality. Such was the flood of Christians in pursuit of martyrdom by the third century that the theologians had to step in to declare this thirst for a holy death to be blasphemous.

That concept of using your death to bear witness to a cause, without killing others, has prompted more than 1,000 suicides since 1963, when a Buddhist monk set himself on fire in protest against the oppression of Buddhism in Vietnam. Global mass media ensure that this individual protest has impact across the world; it is a desperate but hugely effective way to give the cause prominence.

Elements of all these precedents can be traced in the research done on motivations of suicide bombers in Palestine, Chechnya and al-Qaida and probably now those in Iraq. A sense of humiliation and the need to avenge honor on the part of their faith and/or people (or a potent combination of both as in Iraq) is emphasized by Khosrokhavar. He also picks up on how hating the world (because of the experience of injustice and oppression) leads to a longing for death - a rejection of this world's vale of tears.

These are concepts which are very difficult for westerners living largely comfortable lives to grasp. Honor is meaningless to us; we have replaced it with a preoccupation with status and self-fulfillment. We dimly grasp self-sacrifice but only apply the concept to our raising of children. Meanwhile, nothing can trump our dedication to the good life of consumer capitalism, and certainly not any system of abstract beliefs. Not having experienced the desperation of oppression, we have little purchase on the extremism it might engender. Meanwhile, we have medicalized rather than politicized the condition of hating the world and longing for death. The gulf in understanding yawns wide.

But our outraged incomprehension of suicide bombing is also partly because it is the opposite of how we have come to believe wars are fought. It is not the high technology of laser-guided bombs, nor the strangely sterile detachment of the airplane camera without any images of the screams, smashed bones and blood. The west can only now kill from a distance - preferably from several thousand feet up in the air or several hundred kilometers away on an aircraft carrier. It is the very proximity of these suicide missions which is so shocking. This kind of intimate killing is a reversion to pre-industrial warfare - the kind of brutality seen in the thirty years war, for example. Suicide bombers in Iraq are a new permutation of old traditions; they have no monopoly on the horrors they reveal of the human psyche and its capacity to destroy life.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You see all these others you refer to kill only themselves. hey are indeed suicides. The very name suicide bomber is a misnowmer. They are homicide bombers. Their main goal isnt to kill themselves but others. Theres no comparison.

[Tribesman]

You dont have to put forth a counter proposal to walk out.
Who walked out of the talks Gawain Israel or Palestine ?
They did issue a statement saying they had never been closer to reaching an agreement , but they still walked away .
So ...Only one side walked away and started killing people.
Are you criticizing the Isreali government ? ~;)

[Beirut]

I was obviously exhausted when I posted that. Sheeeeesh. I spell it right fo years and one mess up and your all over me. Come on you can do better than that. There are so many different meanings and peoples called Palestinians its hard to keep track of how to spell them ~D

Actually, I did notice that you've been spelling it properly (lately). It's more the accumulated mess od mispellings by many that i was refering to.


You left out Kanada.

Regardless of how you spell it, Kanada isn't a country. It's a state of mind. :saint:

[Beirut]

You see all these others you refer to kill only themselves. hey are indeed suicides. The very name suicide bomber is a misnowmer. They are homicide bombers. Their main goal isnt to kill themselves but others. Theres no comparison.

There is nothing wrong with suicide bomb attacks as long as the targets are military. It's when civilians are targeted that it becomes a crime, or, if you prefer, terrorism.

[Kraxis]

There is nothing wrong with suicide bomb attacks as long as the targets are military. It's when civilians are targeted that it becomes a crime, or, if you prefer, terrorism.
Agreed, I find the Kamikaze to be a noble action, at least at the core of the individual pilot. Many of them knew what was going on in the big cities at night, and they rightly feared for their families. Sadly for them it wasn't as if they had much better chances of actually surviving with regular attacks. So it was a loss/loss actually.

The bad part was when the leadership began to make forced Kamikaze units. The pilots could refuse to volounteer but they couldn't back out of forced entry as they would be a pariah to their unit, and their families would also suffer. But the reality must have been that when there was no volounteers the pilots that jumped the ones to refuse the were just trying to cover their own relief over not having been selected.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There is nothing wrong with suicide bomb attacks as long as the targets are military. It's when civilians are targeted that it becomes a crime, or, if you prefer, terrorism.

Come on you know Ive always said that. But these people rarely attack military targets now do they?


Actually, I did notice that you've been spelling it properly (lately). It's more the accumulated mess od mispellings by many that i was refering to.

Lately?

I wrote that at 6am I woke up and decided to check the forums. I normally get up at 9. Besides you cant even spell 'of' ~D