Feudal Japan and Dynastic China: The military

[sapi]

Does anyone know of any good sites (actual source evience/translations if possible) on this time period relating to the military's role in society and in war? The period i am interested in is from the Xia dynasty in Chinese history (best timeframe i know that encompasses this) to the 1900s.

I'll have the most common sites (thank god for google) but i'd like to know if there's any hidden gems that the historians here might know better than the search engines.

To make this clear and stop me looking like a fool, i'm looking for obscure but useful pieces of primary sources that can be quoted, information that the people over at the Org who enjoy/study history are likely to know, as well as websites that have such information. I'm not asking you to do work for me; i just want anything that comes to the top of your head when you think of Feudal Japan and Dynastic China that can't be gained with a simple google (i'm not one of those people who expect other people to do work for them).

The piece i want this information for is a comparison piece between China and Japan, focusing on the military in society and war. What i need help with is quotations and obscure facts that i probably wouldn't find without help, as well as any authoritive books on the subject.

Thanks in advance,
sapi

[edyzmedieval]

I'm a huge addict of Feudal Japan(I'm so addicted, that I've started learning japanese ~D )... Try some history books, check the 2 threads that are related to the online history resources and books....Leave google and other stuff....They really don't help... Also, for Feudal Japan check this site:

www.samurai-archives.com

It also has a hugely visited forum, post your questions there and you'll surely get the answers...

Cheers, ~:cheers:
Edward :book:

[sapi]

I learnt japanese for a year and decided that i didn't like it - i was really bad at the scripts....

Thanks for the help, i knid of figured that google wouldn't help as it ranks sites by links from other sites (among other things), so really authoritive sites wouldn't get there.

sapi

[nokhor]

have you looked at some of the pre-Han dynasty literature like the 'Spring and Autumn Annals' and the 'Record of the Warring States'?

[RollingWave]

Open online sources in english are few, there is a decent english online forum on chinese history though. www.chinahistoryforum.com

But the information ur asking for is way too vast and hard to give anything but grand generalizations.... Xia dynasty is a semi mythical dynasty that according to ancient history text was probably around 2000.bc - 1600 b.c

I can give you very grand generalization on the different phases of chinese military.

around 1600-1000b.c Shang dynasty. their army is a mix of feudal warriors and slaves, well developed broze weaponaries and helmets (no broze armor as far as i know), main shock weapon was chariots.

1066 b.c - 771 b.c western Zhou dynasty: height of the chinese feudal period. military system was much like the Shang but better developed, without the slaves.

771.bc-221 b.c Eastern Zhou dynasty, Spring and autumn (771-475bc)+warring state (475-221b.c): the developing era of Chinese warfare, although still based mainly on feudal chariot warfare, the appearance of iron weapons and crossbows, new type of warfare such as calvary and more reliance on infantry, Sun Tzu was also written during this period, with war swiftly parpelling from fedual and ritualistic towards total mass warfare.

221b.c-206b.c qin dynasty:contination of the warring states, chariots light calvary and mass infantry with various weapons.

208b.c-220a.d Han dynasty: the phase out of chariots and brozne equipments. the first strong united dynasty of China. due to the mass warfare with nomads in the north saw the strong development and stress of light calvary to fight the nomads on even ground.

Age of fragmentation: (including the 3 kingdoms era, between Han and Tang) 220-618 a.d: this era saw the rise and dominace of heavy armored horsemen, possibily influenced by the persian they were clad in very similar fashion to byzantian / persian cataprhcats. but towards the era's end they began to fade out of use.

Tang dynasty:618-907 a.d : change back to lighter calvary based army, mobility was much stressed and often even infantries traveled around on horses.(and due to it's strong diplomatic situation had sufficient access to horses to afford such luxeruy) with the development of large new style of polearms and anti horse strategies. the strongest era of chinese history.

Sung dynasty:960-1260 a.d :the completion of cold weapon chinese warfare, with starting developments in gun powder based weapons. although weapon technology reached it's height, the military power declined vastly due to self constrain to prevent the military from overthrowing the government. (something that happened during the Tang)

Yuan dynasty 1271-1368 a.d :Mongolian dynasty, with the main arrmy as the mongol style warriors supported by Chinese infantry.

Ming dynasty 1368-1677 a.d:development of firearms, but after early part of the dynasty. long peace and self closure began to see a stall and back track of military development. military equipment wise began to see less reliance on armor as gunpowder base weapon began to grow in ever importance.

Qing dynasty: 1677-1911 a.d: the semi nomadic machurians of north eastern china established their own dynasty as the Ming fell from internal rebellion and eventrually secured themself as a minority dynasty. their military was more based on Monglian influenced horse archery style warfare, although they opened to the west briefly after their rise (a continuation from the late ming dynasty) they eventurally closed themself again and again saw a long period of relative peace, and they continued to stick to their tradition. so when the west came knocking in 1850 they got into a lot of trouble (even their original military and deterioted vastly from long peace)

[sapi]

Wow!

Thanks, RollingWave, that was a lot of what i was looking for.

In response to your comment about the Xia Dynasty, i was just using it as an example of the time period i'm interested in (Xia-Qing in China).

[RollingWave]

To give an idea of the change of warfare during the eastern Zhou era, here's a comparason, the original fedual battles were often like the greek city states phalanx battles, the two sides meet (sometimes at designated locations.) and they form up formations, ususally with the chariots as the center of the army while each chariots has bout a dozen infantry to support it. both sides fire arrows at each other until one side decide to charge. and then either both side charge other or the other side will try to hold their formation and withstand the charge... either way the first side to break formation lose.

battles were usually fought by feudal warriors only (the higher class are the charioteer, ususally on the left of the chariots with a bow and sword, the center is the rider and the left is a middle or lower class warrior holding a polearm ) afterwards the lose side sometimes give the winning side cities/lands or goods.... sieging was very rare.

But as the fedual system begin to fall apart mass total warfare begin to happen, battles were no longer fought at arranged places, cities will be sieged, commoners will be dragged into war (towards the late warring states saw several battles where both sides practically pitched in every able male within their realm) there is no more rules to the battle (night attacks, out manuvers, spies/assasins, every trick in the book is used) and as battle became less predictable, the less flexible chariots slowly begin to fade out of use as it is no good in any difficult terrain. while infantry became the core of the army and calvary began to be used.)

Here's an example of a early warring states clash .
Battle of Ma ling. 342 b.c
The Kingdom of Wei attacked it's weaker neighboring kingdom of Han to their south, the Han send emmisaries to the Kingdom of Chi, which is another strong kingdoming on the east of Wei.

The Chi army was led by Tian Ji and Sun Bin, Sun Bin is acturally a decendent of Sun Tzu himself.

Seeing that the main forces of the Wei is in Han, instead of heading their army to the kingdom of Han they headed strait for the Wei capital of Da Lian.

The Wei general (whowas a friend of Sun Bin back in their younger days but betrayed him later) Pon Jiuan realizing that the Chi army was heading for their capital, lift the siege in Han and headed strait home. trying to cut off the Chi army before they reached Da lian.

In close pursuit, they keep seeing the camps left behind by the Chi army in the previous few days. examianing the camps he realized that the camp are smaller by the day and less cooking fire were left behind with every camp they find, he assumed that the Chi army tired of the long march and feared being so deep in enemy territory were starting to see deserters. and then he realize that they were starting to head off course and instead of heading to Da Lian they look like they were trying to turn around and head home.

So Pon decided to pursue the Chi army as fast as he could, leaving behind the slow infantries behind them and pursuit with the faster light infantries and chariots.

As he closed in on the Chi forces around Ma Ling (a rather narrow vally pass.) at night. he suddenly realized that the Chi forces and cut down many trees and laid them in the pass, thinking that this was a stalling tactic he pressed on, and then (this part might be made up...) he realized that the Chi forces left one big tree standing and seem to have written something on it.

written on the bark says "Pon Jiuan dies under this tree" and suddenly Chi archers and crossbowmens sprang from their ambush on the mountian and in the woods, unleashing their amunition to the densly packed and dissarrayed Wei army below. and then the remaining Chi forces charged from both ends on the shocked and already tired Wei troops, whom were without the support of their heavy infantries, they were soon utterly defeated with Pon Jiuan dead.

The battle ended in a grand victory, this battle reversed the early warring states situation where Wei was the strongest.. now Chi replaced them and they remained a major powerhouse throughout the warring states.

The battle description give an clear idea on the logic of Chinese warfare, you try to gain as much of an edge as possible, you try to force the enemy to react to your manuverings, you try to fake them into assuming wrong things about you, you try to fight them while ur fresh and they are tired, you try to divide them and surprise them. you should try to let them run up against ur well prepared defense, while only do full out attack when you have the surprise or they are already in dissarray, you try to pick the most favorable position for urself.

Pon lost because he got fooled by the deception of the reduced camp and manuvering of the Chi, thinking they were retreating in dissary while instead they were waiting for him in ambush. the deception not only got him to divide he's forces but also let down he's guard and easily fell into an ambush. but even if he hadn't fall into the ambush with he's force divided and tired from the force march, a defeat is almost inevitable as well.

[sapi]

That's a very interesting story, RollingWave, i can use that as an example of the less noble and more 'just win it' Chinese culture (warring states period) compared to the rituialistic and moral-based japanese samurai warfare that emerged later.

I know that this is not the same period as the samurai but i can use the 'just win it' Chinese methos in that period as an example of their way of fighting.

Re: nokhor, i will look at the books you suggested if i can find them

Thanks for all the help; any more is of course welcome...i'll try to repay the favour one day to someone else asking for help once i have the knowledge!

[RollingWave]

It seems like a general pattern in history to evolve from ritualistic warfare to all out total war. just that in China it happaned a lot sooner than in Japan

The japanese warfare in Shangouku jida (sp?) were also far from noble, with muskets and assasins and all the commoners dragged into war and bribing part of ur oppenent to join you etc....

Ritualistic warfare is IMHO a product of feudal eras in general... if you wish to maintain the feudal ways you must stick to the rules... if you simply want to conquer ur enemy you throw the rules out the window.

There were several warring divided periods in China, but Warring States usually referr to 475b.c-221 b.c , which was before the Han dynasty, the period between the Han and Sui has less agreed on name, in our forum we preferr to call it the age of fragmentation though.

[sapi]

There were several warring divided periods in China, but Warring States usually referr to 475b.c-221 b.c , which was before the Han dynasty, the period between the Han and Sui has less agreed on name, in our forum we preferr to call it the age of fragmentation though.

lol i just came back to fix that - i realised that although Han -> Sui was a period of disunity it was not the warring states period, but you beat me to it :)


Yes, it is interesting to note the relationship between feudalism and the sense of nobility and values in combat - knights in europe, early chinese fighting, samurai in japan....