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View Full Version : MATHEMATICS, STATISTICS everyone\'s help appreciated!



Yamaga Shimazu
11-16-2000, 16:13
Part I
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Terazawa said:

So, there are to solutions:

1) Changing the cost of muskeeters
2) Changing their morale variables
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And i answered:

Ok, here's what i suggest given the tremendously important exp i have aquired with testing falcon4 :

The main suggestion is a patch program in the simplest of graphic manners.
This patch program would undoubtedly include ALL the patches every third party utility has placed in the code of the shogun program.

Let's be practical http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif :

F4patch2.1.1 is a program which lets u ADD or REMOVE every single patch the parties have created for use with Falcon4.
All the patches appear in a list and the user only has to do a click and the patch is applied/removed.
THIS is important as i am sure numerous patches will be released for the game and not even the littlest part of them from the official releasers who are, usually, disbanded as a team by the producers as soon as the project is definitely over.

The "f4patch" program lets u restore shogun to the version u previously had and patches are available everywhere in the world as soon as they are done and tested.

Of course, the programmers' or producers' help would be tremendously helpful in finding the lines to tweak. This would make the debugging job a lot faster and easier. A courtesy to the creators and a benefit to those who EARN from sales, but after all the program is not anyone's but theirs and rules must be complied with, always.
Once the key shogpatch.exe is done, every other patch can be related to it as it is in f4. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

But the extremely important f4patch gives a result very clear to my eyes: no matter how many patches are around nowadays, compatibility is assured for mismatching patches PREVENT puters from playing online.
The ease of use would still make the game fully customizable for ALL the shogun players.

The unit editor is all we need to at this moment, given the imminent release of patch 1.13 which will certainly fix some ai related problems.

Experience has shown that working on the ai is a brutal job and extremely hard to do, while the editing of some parameters while leaving the main code intact, is not.
(get in touch with those who can and ask them WHICH are the files we need to tweak!)

So, as to the editor: We need to edit all factors for all units. The values we need to change and make real are:

COST -> we must be practical and real, the cost should be implying the levying, training and arming of units. HERE is the first difference between sam and ashi, the morale and equipment and it should be in the costs.

EXPONENTIAL RISING OF HONOUR -> the factor should be different for ashi/sam as to show that an ashi unit is realistically harder to train beyond a certain limit. What i exactly mean is that as u have noticed in the comparison tables, the ys and ya DONT raise exponentially that is:

ya 100 140 196 274 384
ys 200 280 392 549 769

The basic values are doubled for samurai (200) and normal for ashi (100) and the RELATIONSHIP 2-1 is kept unto honour 9 with a FIXED FACTOR of 1.4.

While basic value is right for a sam surely is worth double the cost of an ashi, at higher honour levels we have seen the game misbehaving because honour is related to morale.

Therefore the MUST is to keep ashis weaker than samurais.

The cost increases by 1.4 CONSTANT per honour level for BOTH kind of troopers.
We can do it by changing this factor towards an exponential and not a fixed factor (which is the actual 2-1 for base and 1.4 per increment) and we could do something like leaving basic values 2 to 1 and then moving to 1.5 for ashis and 1.3 for samurais FIXED, [[[OR]]] imply a real moving exponential factor per increment) [[[or]]] more realistically, by limiting the maximum honour an ashi unit can have.

1 of 2 pages

Yamaga Shimazu
11-16-2000, 16:19
Part II

....

An example of what i mean in the MOVING exponential factor for rising of costs related to honour :

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
ya 100 250 500 750 1000
ys 200 325 450 615 800

Factors: 3)2.5 4)5 5)7.5 6)10
[for ashi]
Factors: 3)1.625 4)2.25 5)3.075 6)4
[for samurai]

These numbers show how it works with the moving exponential factor.
In the example above, the factors are favouring the samurais: the higher the honour the more ashi is disadvantaged in cost.
Of course TESTING only can tell where lies the balance. Changing the factor is the key.

There u can already see though that a ya with an honour of 4 costs more than a ys with same honour and is no more a big deal for player could use those koku to buy more less honoured ya.
This would mean that, u know, we have balanced the game towards numbers/honour(which is our goal) for we know that low honoured ashis rout http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but still they were the bulk of japanese armies of that age.

Lets see an example with the FIXED increment factor 1.5 for ashis and 1.1 for sam.

2 3 4 5 6 7
ya 100 150 225 338 507 760
ys 200 220 242 266 292 322

And again, as u can see, the ashi is worth only with low honour and big number http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
...only testing can prove the right method.
But i guess these example are extremely clear.

MOVEMENT
FIRING RATE
FIRING RANGE
ARMOR
ETC.
ETC.

These are the basic values. I would leave movement as it is. But i would change the range for archers and muskets. We could realistically agree that without wind, arrows get to 300 yds (with still a good chance to kill or render victim useless in battle) while muskets to 150.
(wind is the clue! the weather is linked to range and it will be easy to find this value)
We are of course thinking of UNIT TO UNIT fire, not single to single fire.

The rate of fire is a shot per minute for every gunner and at least 3 shots per minute for archers.
(the firing rate should also take in consideration the honour but never allowing a high honour unit to behave unrealistically as it does now).


MORALE, last but not least of course.
In stw the morale is computed with losses and leadership of general and unit leader.
There also is to take in consideration christianity/buddhism (if lanza makes it in having them change it from as it is now) and the gun BOOM scaring factor but its secondary now...im talking about the monks and guns of course.

There is no way to detach morale-honour according to me...not completely at least for every type of unit has its morale factor for sure but this is computed with these 2 honour related factors : general and unit leader.
The ashi honour limiter would fix them all according to me but is just speculation without testing.

As to the guns shooting through friends and hitting enemy i really have no idea on how to fix http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif only the programmers can't.

The editor is a great idea.
in regards to honour/morale:
Wether the choice goes towards ashi limiter, change of exponential factor to a fixed or moving value that makes a difference between ashi and sams...
It will bring a higher cost for high honour ashis and higher cost still for gunners (importing of gun and powder/bullets and we only need to change the basic value of 175 for the mu) we will have given a great realism factor to this game.

If ashis cost a lot to be honoured, we will have many low honoured ashis and few high honoured samurais and this is EXACTLY what was war in Japan at that point in time.

Further speculation is useless now. When the editor will be released, each of us will have plenty of time to find the correct values for every unit...and of course, we will have to fight to the death http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Exp is the key. We cannot just say i want the ashis to cost this and the sam to cost that...we must test the different values.

Let me know what u think...of course i can get u in contact with the author of f4patch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif this to make sure everyone playing online has the same values and to prevent cheating.
The editor of course doesn't need the patch coordinating program but i can bet money on this:

As soon as maps and third parties add ons will be released, a program coordinating the patches will HAVE to be as well or the players will not be able to play online anymore since everyone will have a "different game" installed.

Best regards http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Yamaga Shimazu
11-16-2000, 16:23
Part II

....

An example of what i mean in the MOVING exponential factor for rising of costs related to honour :

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
ya 100 250 500 750 1000
ys 200 325 450 615 800

Factors: 3)2.5 4)5 5)7.5 6)10
[for ashi]
Factors: 3)1.625 4)2.25 5)3.075 6)4
[for samurai]

These numbers show how it works with the moving exponential factor.
In the example above, the factors are favouring the samurais: the higher the honour the more ashi is disadvantaged in cost.
Of course TESTING only can tell where lies the balance. Changing the factor is the key.

There u can already see though that a ya with an honour of 4 costs more than a ys with same honour and is no more a big deal for player could use those koku to buy more less honoured ya.
This would mean that, u know, we have balanced the game towards numbers/honour(which is our goal) for we know that low honoured ashis rout http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but still they were the bulk of japanese armies of that age.

Lets see an example with the FIXED increment factor 1.5 for ashis and 1.1 for sam.

2 3 4 5 6 7
ya 100 150 225 338 507 760
ys 200 220 242 266 292 322

And again, as u can see, the ashi is worth only with low honour and big number http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
...only testing can prove the right method.
But i guess these example are extremely clear.

MOVEMENT
FIRING RATE
FIRING RANGE
ARMOR
ETC.
ETC.

These are the basic values. I would leave movement as it is. But i would change the range for archers and muskets. We could realistically agree that without wind, arrows get to 300 yds (with still a good chance to kill or render victim useless in battle) while muskets to 150.
(wind is the clue! the weather is linked to range and it will be easy to find this value)
We are of course thinking of UNIT TO UNIT fire, not single to single fire.

The rate of fire is a shot per minute for every gunner and at least 3 shots per minute for archers.
(the firing rate should also take in consideration the honour but never allowing a high honour unit to behave unrealistically as it does now).


MORALE, last but not least of course.
In stw the morale is computed with losses and leadership of general and unit leader.
There also is to take in consideration christianity/buddhism (if lanza makes it in having them change it from as it is now) and the gun BOOM scaring factor but its secondary now...im talking about the monks and guns of course.

There is no way to detach morale-honour according to me...not completely at least for every type of unit has its morale factor for sure but this is computed with these 2 honour related factors : general and unit leader.
The ashi honour limiter would fix them all according to me but is just speculation without testing.

As to the guns shooting through friends and hitting enemy i really have no idea on how to fix http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif only the programmers can't.

The editor is a great idea.
in regards to honour/morale:
Wether the choice goes towards ashi limiter, change of exponential factor to a fixed or moving value that makes a difference between ashi and sams...
It will bring a higher cost for high honour ashis and higher cost still for gunners (importing of gun and powder/bullets and we only need to change the basic value of 175 for the mu) we will have given a great realism factor to this game.

If ashis cost a lot to be honoured, we will have many low honoured ashis and few high honoured samurais and this is EXACTLY what was war in Japan at that point in time.

Further speculation is useless now. When the editor will be released, each of us will have plenty of time to find the correct values for every unit...and of course, we will have to fight to the death http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Exp is the key. We cannot just say i want the ashis to cost this and the sam to cost that...we must test the different values.

Let me know what u think...of course i can get u in contact with the author of f4patch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif this to make sure everyone playing online has the same values and to prevent cheating.
The editor of course doesn't need the patch coordinating program but i can bet money on this:

As soon as maps and third parties add ons will be released, a program coordinating the patches will HAVE to be as well or the players will not be able to play online anymore since everyone will have a "different game" installed.

Best regards http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Yamaga Shimazu
11-17-2000, 00:35
This just to clarify for the readers of the upshown postings.

The knowledge of our strenght and weaknesses is the key for winning battles along with the knowledge of the enemy, as Sun Tzu teaches.

Tactics are used to achieve victory, and victory is achieved by uexploiting enemy's weaknesses.

The tactics evolve from the birth of a fighting style (monk, yari, cavalry, bow) and developed with experience during the centuries.

Strenght and weaknesses of units, u must admit, come out of their equipment, speed of movement, range of fire, morale factors and the like.

If a general puts these "details" in second then he is assured to loose, unless he faces an incompetent opponent.

Now, Shogun is a program which simulates battles. As a simulation, it was developed to let us have fun. I find it a tremendously important thing to know where the weaknesses and strenghts of our (and enemy's) units come from and that means to study the numbers on which these units have been built inside the program.

Folks, i have been playing countless boardgames much more complex than stw. I have played among the many : Empires in arms and World in flames (classified TEN at difficulty level).

I am doing this study and putting this effort in order to raise a new kind of game from this shogun, totally endowed with realism.

True fun comes out of victory and defeat.
U are satisfied when ur plan comes to a good end.
Wether ur plan comes to a good or bad (dead) end it is YOU having to make your troops and enemy troops do what u want them to do.

Strategy is all about this. And it is impossible to do without knowing the numbers which CLASSIFY troops.

If we manage to tweak the units, along with satisfying ALL the players with the values they want, we will have attained after thorough testing the ultimate objective:

having made war simulated as the art it is.

Less linked to money and luck factors and more linked to tactics, true morale and definitely real.

The easports says:if it's in the game it's in the game and i totally adhere to this philosophy. I long to see shogun as it really should be...

REAL

Help us, recruit http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Magraev
11-17-2000, 17:39
Impressive work and insightfull analysis.

I agree that ashigaru should be harder to honor up, but maybe the figures you used are a bit extreme for the campaign game.

In my current game I just merged a honor 4 ashi unit with a level 1 unit - reason: only 12 ashis left in the high honor unit. In the course of the campaign your ashis drop like flies, so they need to go up rather quickly or they wont go up at all.

I suggest equal progression, their higher mortality will mean, that there will only be few high honor ashis anyway.

Yamaga Shimazu
11-17-2000, 19:37
Answering to Magraev:

Well, as a matter of fact, once the ai is fixed by 1.13, we will undoubtedly see a difference in what the ai CAN or CANT afford.
This way things should start working in camp as well.
Ashi limiter should be cool and/or ashi exponential increment factor still cool of course if we make it to be paid higher than increment of samurai units.


In my current game I just merged a honor 4 ashi unit with a level 1 unit - reason: only 12 ashis left in the high honor unit. In the course of the campaign your ashis drop like flies, so they need to go up rather quickly or they wont go up at all.

They don't need to go up too much...as a matter of fact they were cannon fodder and really died like flies. Of course a dead man, or much more appropriate in this case, 12 men with honour 4 can only raise the total of new unit to honour 1.
The reason u can get to honour 4 is because u had famous spear dojo or legendary spear dojo along with few battles in which these ashi survived.
Think about it...u PAID those dojos for the extra honour. IT is right to pay more for the honour and in dojos as well, those related to sam are more expensive than those related to ashi.
Can u see where im getting at ?

What i mean is, since ashis die a lot easier than samurais, how can that be that they arrive at honour 4 or more ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Unless they started with honour 2 or 3...
i am quite unsure if i would choose an ashi limiter of honour or just leave things as they are and just change the cost u have to pay for high honour ashis (increasing exp factor per increment)

If u have read the tables, u know what i am referring to.
What would you choose ?


I suggest equal progression, their higher mortality will mean, that there will only be few high honor ashis anyway.

Actually, the problem is not the ashi mortality but the fact that they behave unrealistically (morale) at higher honour levels.
If the battle is affected by a high honour ashigaru which costs just half of the same honour samurai, why not buying the muskets then ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

A difference must be made between online play and solo camp.

In Online play, the trick is quite simple:
Buy little high hon samurai, many med honour ashi and one highest honour taisho.
Every unit will get the bonus and therefore as u can imagine the ashis will fight like samurais though costing half.

As to camp, with units edited we will have made sure the comp has same stats and pays the same we pay for the same units.
There this way will be a reason to buy the palace and many useless facilities that if u think of it, are bought when technically u have already won the game.
I usually get to hcav and nagi when i have already won and this because most of player's koku are used to buy units, given the horde problem.

We must tweak the ashi problem to INCREASE the effective (and REAL) value of highly trained samurai units and better equipped naginata, no dachi and samurais.
If the values of a ashi unit exceed the value of a samurai then the realism is over and it will be an arcade.
Ashi were poorly trained, poorly equipped and, of course, conscripted.
Samurais on the contrary were highly trained and equipped and, as volounteers, much more motivated.
Honour has nothing to do with combat but we use it for sake of experience.

Basically, no matter how expert an unit can be, an ashi is still affected by high disertion and casualty rate with little training and equipment.
Are u sure an ashi unit could get to honour4 in the real thing ? I don't think so.

Therefore, the road of ashi limiter seems quite appropriate to me.
It would push us all to create few better trained samurai and a bulk of poor ashigaru...and that is exactly what war was at that point in time.

Ah...just an info.
STW is the comp version of Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
Anyone ever played this game ?
I been in tournaments. There was no player unknowing of every stat of every unit involved in a battle.
They all knew BOTH.

Now, in warhammer, u start building an army by choosing the RACE (which gives basic morale, strenght, dexterity, hatred for some races and fear for some others), then the armor and weapon of ur trooper, the secondary weapon, the magic items in possession....

EVERYTHING has a stat and is PAID for.
Extra armor, shield and the like are all part of the shopping fun and all reveal to be key factors in assignment of victory.
We must make it true in here.
I was also thinking about reducing the restricted camera range to half of its current range to allow players to hide behind hills and to reduce the distance to which enemy hididng in trees is displayed on map.
This would bring to real ambushes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Vanya
12-06-2000, 03:40
Your changes will lead people to not use ashigaru at all! There is no way they will get loads of YA when samurai units are a better bargain. At least the current system promotes using the hapless peasants. With your scheme, ashigaru will become extinct in MP. Face it: get a low honor ashigaru or samurai? Hmmm... hard choice there. You will thus face al-samurai armies, just as you do now in many MP games. How realistic is that?

I say give the peasants a break...

12-06-2000, 21:20
I think amking our friends gunners more expensive should be the primary change.

I think that YA should be left at 100K and left routing.

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

12-06-2000, 21:20
I think amking our friends gunners more expensive should be the primary change.

I think that YA should be left at 100K and left routing.

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Yamaga Shimazu
12-07-2000, 14:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vanya:
[B]Your changes will lead people to not use ashigaru at all!

On the contrary, read the "rules" i am testing in the unit costs topic. I am already playing with 11 ashis and 5 sam units in the game and it is a totally different game.
I have included an honor limiter and a different cost for gun units.
Don't judge the system, test it with me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I am willing to prove what i say.

" There is no way they will get loads of YA when samurai units are a better bargain."

Yes there is a certain way...giving a ratio of 1-3. One sam per every 3 ashi units (guns included though they have different cost)

" At least the current system promotes using the hapless peasants."

Yeah...they don't seem so hapless as u say at hon 6 (remember they have +4 against cavs which cost a lot more) and they are tremendously effective when ur enemy has the same rules and regulations on the building of its army and IF u use them wisely.

" With your scheme, ashigaru will become extinct in MP. "

On the contrary. If u have icq 58294718 is my number. You will most certainly see what i mean. Get in touch.

" Face it: get a low honor ashigaru or samurai? Hmmm... hard choice there."

Not so hard.

" You will thus face al-samurai armies, just as you do now in many MP games. How realistic is that?"

In fact, there's no realism in facing all-sam armies as well as there's no realism facing ashi who have hon6.

Vanya, my words are based on gaming experience. I have tested this game a lot and with different rules/values.
I encourage you to try those rules and i will be happy to play with you.

I wouldn't personally change anything but the gun costs in this game.
I would just be happy at seeing regulations allow players to choose their armies but limiting them.
The limit is, the army must be realistically raised, the honor must not unbalance the game and the ashigaru must be the bulk of the army (it was MORE than 1-3 ratio but until we can play with MORE than 16 units on the field, 1-3 has given splendid results).
This is all.
Meet me on the field, and see what i mean in my posts.
See the effects and the change. Then we will discuss further but at least you will have seen what i mean.

Vanya
12-07-2000, 21:19
Please show me the errors of my ways. That is all I really ask...

Yamaga Shimazu
12-08-2000, 07:46
Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
Please show me the errors of my ways. That is all I really ask...[/QUOTE]

It is extremely easy:

When there are no rules or regulations to break, there can be no cheat or cheaters.
I believe this game can be played in various ways and if we set some good rules, inclined to realistic assemblying of armies and with unit costs reflecting the effective performances of the real units on the fields of that point in time...

...then we can really say we have bought a simulation, where the art of war is important and techniques, formations, troop type and morale lead to victory.
As things are now, i believe (quite frankly i am sure) that honor unbalances the game to the point of turning it into a matter of wise use of koku...and just it.

Whenever i play with rules, i have fun, no matter if i win or lose. Deceit, use of terrain, manouvering and tactics in general brought victory and since by rules both armies are roughly equivalent and realistically balanced there lies the way of fun.
Let's try http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif then you will see.