The "town square" while taking cities

[Titus Livius]

I'm sure this has happened to most of you. The other day I was taking yet another city away from the Carthaginians. I like to take my time placing my seige towers, gives the buggers time to think about how screwed they are. Anyway, I took the walls, entered the city and was marching toward "town square" when I see the little Carthago flag with the timer pop up. It was a big city and there was no way I could get my men there in time. Even though I lost no men and the enemy lost all but a handful, I got "Average Defeat."

Forgive me if this topic has already been beaten to death, but this has got to be the most asinine feature of RTW. My question is this: what would be a better way to figure out who holds the city? Historically, once the gate was open or a breach made in the walls, that was it, usually. I think once your guys set one sandaled foot inside it should be Game Over.

[Craterus]

I disagree. Why did Sparta have no walls? Because they were cocky enough to think that they didn't need them and they could defend no matter what came at them.

If one soldier got inside the walls, the townspeople could probably beat him to death...

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Also if you dislike the timer you can turn it off in 1.2. That feature is due in part to complaints given by people here and at other forums.

[Titus Livius]

I disagree. Why did Sparta have no walls? Because they were cocky enough to think that they didn't need them and they could defend no matter what came at them.

If one soldier got inside the walls, the townspeople could probably beat him to death...

Cocky, sure. But the only reason Epaminondas of Thebes (after he'd handed the Spartans their respective asses at Luectra) didn't take the city was because the streets were too narrow for his phalanx.

And when the Romans came, well, Sparta was incorporated just like all the other Greek cities. I don't recall anything in the histories about those fierce Spartans beating legionaries to death in the streets.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the best would be if timer was automatically turned off when you had managed to get more than 100 men inside and kept them there for 3 minutes. Then the rest of battle could be fought out with no rush and it would be fair to lose because you didn't breach the walls quickly enough as well as almost never failing once you got through the walls.

[Dark Proteus]

There is a time limit on the battle. That's good enough for me. If you can't kill or rout the enemy in 40 minutes of battle, you've lost. I think being able to take and hold 10% of the city for 3 minutes is irrelevant. That's my two cents.

And in terms of declaring victory because you got into a city... I had Patavium (playing as Julii) specializing in Cavalry, so they had a force of about 60% cavalry garrisoned there. Big surprise that the siege towers took the wall, but I repelled 1200 Brutii with 650 Roman and Legionary cavalry. Just because you get in, doesn't mean it's any easier inside :help:

Giddyup :charge:

~Proteus

[Craterus]

Welcome to the Guild ~:wave:

I agree with you that it's no easier inside the walls and that holding 10% of the city shouldn't win you the battle.

But I disagree about the 40 minute rule; sieges went on for hours in reality. And people are always saying the game is unrealistic.

[vale]

I believes you can turn off the timer for battle if you go and download the program by RTR here is the link, got the program but never bother to try it. ~;)

http://www.rometotalrealism.com/downloads.shtml

[bubbanator]

I think that the timer is a good thing, in RTW you should be able to take pretty much any city in 40 minutes. It shouldn't take hours to take a city, in my mind. Everything is scaled down in RTW. There aren't 256 man phalanxes or groups of 10000 legionares. The fight time on unit-to-unit fighting is shorter than in real life too. So it seems right that the time limit for taking cities is scaled down as well.

However I do hate it when the enemy has a unit of horse archers and just run away from you until time runs out and you lose the battle.

[Tigranes]

However I do hate it when the enemy has a unit of horse archers and just run away from you until time runs out and you lose the battle.

Herd them to the edge of the map and they will fall.

[LegolasII]

i hate wen u sally out and they have siege towers and then units get caught in the tower and cant be killed

[The Stranger]

I'm sure this has happened to most of you. The other day I was taking yet another city away from the Carthaginians. I like to take my time placing my seige towers, gives the buggers time to think about how screwed they are. Anyway, I took the walls, entered the city and was marching toward "town square" when I see the little Carthago flag with the timer pop up. It was a big city and there was no way I could get my men there in time. Even though I lost no men and the enemy lost all but a handful, I got "Average Defeat."

Forgive me if this topic has already been beaten to death, but this has got to be the most asinine feature of RTW. My question is this: what would be a better way to figure out who holds the city? Historically, once the gate was open or a breach made in the walls, that was it, usually. I think once your guys set one sandaled foot inside it should be Game Over.

a very big DISAGREE, the problem with RTW's castles is that is based on the roman style of building. they only have on wall. actually you had to cross a ditch, some castles had multiple walls. even if you take the center, the battle shouldn't be over. some cities were fought to the death. even if one part of the city fell, they contineud fighting in the other part. even when the gae is broken they can drive the enemy out of the city can't they.

[The Stranger]

I believes you can turn off the timer for battle if you go and download the program by RTR here is the link, got the program but never bother to try it. ~;)

http://www.rometotalrealism.com/downloads.shtml

you can also just set the tmer of smartpants

[The Stranger]

Cocky, sure. But the only reason Epaminondas of Thebes (after he'd handed the Spartans their respective asses at Luectra) didn't take the city was because the streets were too narrow for his phalanx.

And when the Romans came, well, Sparta was incorporated just like all the other Greek cities. I don't recall anything in the histories about those fierce Spartans beating legionaries to death in the streets.

becuz the spartans had fought theirself to the death. the had no fierce spartans left. the spartan law made sure that the lakedaemonians ran out.

[pezhetairoi]

I don't think it's just the 10% of the city and 100 men... it's more like, if the town square is empty and just one of your men set foot on it, it's yours if that man stays there for 3 minutes. I know because I had my in-city units all off chasing some routing peltasts along the walls leaving the square unoccupied, and that peltast unit (only 5 men left) just routed back to the Town square, stopping the timer. I had to restart it again by killing those 5 peltasts, but then after that, there really wasn't a need to. Usually the timer doesn't matter since if your clear the town square so it's occupied solely by your troops, the AI ensures that it means you've already killed everyone within the walls since the last unit will always garrison the town square in the imperial campaign.

[Beefy]

its good the way it is, it makes you hurry up in attacking.

The way your suggesting it is, oh right the nazis nd walked 100 metres into france, so its theirs! would happen really! The way to capture a city, kill all its portectors! fair if you ask me

[Titus Livius]

a very big DISAGREE, the problem with RTW's castles is that is based on the roman style of building. they only have on wall. actually you had to cross a ditch, some castles had multiple walls. even if you take the center, the battle shouldn't be over. some cities were fought to the death. even if one part of the city fell, they contineud fighting in the other part. even when the gae is broken they can drive the enemy out of the city can't they.

That would make a cool edition to a sequel or add-on: multiple-walled cities, with ditches and inner-citadels that troops can fall back to.

[Titus Livius]

its good the way it is, it makes you hurry up in attacking.

The way your suggesting it is, oh right the nazis nd walked 100 metres into france, so its theirs! would happen really! The way to capture a city, kill all its portectors! fair if you ask me

You're comparing apples to oranges. The building-by-building guerilla warfare of WWII isn't comparable to ancient warfare. And we're talking about walled cities, not entire countries. Also, it's a tad more difficult taking down an armored legionary with a bow and arrow than sniping the unarmored Wehrmacht with an Enfield. This argument is utterly foolish.

Most of you seem to be of the mind that the time limit makes the game more fun, but not necessarily realistic. Realism is the single most important aspect of this game for me, and my question was really aimed at others who share this. I should have been more specific from the outset.

Most ancient historians end the narrative of a battle once the walls are down and the attackers start pouring in, or else they go on for a sentence or two about how there was much slaughter in the city and a lot of loot was taken.

I challenge all of you to show me an example in Ancient History where the gate was knocked in or the walls breached, and the defenders managed to fight off the attackers.

[Beefy]

its was just a comment, wasnt trying to do anything with it, but thats not how battles are won, on who has most ground, its about whos still alive.

Second, Whats the point of having a game, thats not fun to play? sure ultrarealism can be fun, but if its up to me i'd go for a fun game rather than a realistic game.

And if you want a REALISTIC game download Total Realism.

[conon394]

Titus Livius

How about these

Motya (or Motye) resisted for an extended period after the forces of Dionysius Breached the walls. According to Diodorus there were days of fighting around the breach inside the city.

At the opening of the Peloponnesian War, the Thebans managed to enter Plataea, but the defenders subsequently rallied and recovered control of the town.

In 272 BC Pyrrhus was killed in the confused fighting the lasted all night after he had already entered the city of Argos by treachery. His forces were subsequently ejected from the city.

[katank]

One issue is that total number of men involved seems to be a major factor in deciding battle time. This means that if you are taking a small garrison with a huge force, you get something like 40 minutes.

However, if you are taking on a large garrison with a smaller army, you actually get only like 20 minutes. This makes challenging battles even harder and often impossible.

[pezhetairoi]

wow...shouldn't it be reverse? It seems quite unfair like this...

That aside, yeah, breaches were often covered up by alternative walls built behind them. Sieges and assaults should literally last turns instead of just one assault and that's the end.

[Titus Livius]

Titus Livius

How about these

I'm having a hard time finding battle-specific information on both Motya and Plataea. Could you point me toward your sources?

However, you were spot on with Pyrrhus. Apparently some old woman chucked a roofing tile at his head.

Nicely done.

[Titus Livius]

And if you want a REALISTIC game download Total Realism.

He he, already did.

[pezhetairoi]

'Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World' uses the battle of Plataea as a case-study in [what not to do regarding] command and control. Also has a [quite useless] diagram. You may want to read that case study. It's also got Cannae, Pydna, Hydaspes, Raphia, Chios, Dura Europos, Aqua Sextiae, Strasbourg, Trebia and Pelennor Fields (j/k) as case studies.

[conon394]

T. Livius

For Motya see Diodorus 14.52.5
You can find an online translation at Perseus: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Diod.+14.52.1

For Plataea see Thucydides 2.2 ff (you can find an online version at the Perseus site as well).

On Pyrrhus, turns out he is not an isolated case, but rather the norm. If you look up Thucydides and his description on Plataea, you find tile chucking women and slaves again playing a pivotal role in the defense of a polis....

Edit:
3 counter examples however do not necessarily invalidate the relative accuracy of your original post. But since (as a defender), you cannot build either regular or emergency interior wars (or build up the height of your walls), or counter mine, or have tile tossing women, I think a timer is a fair abstraction. I would give the AI a longer time period then the human player though.

[[seminoles]shadow]

yes that realy got on my last nerve so i just shut off the timer

[Titus Livius]

On Pyrrhus, turns out he is not an isolated case, but rather the norm. If you look up Thucydides and his description on Plataea, you find tile chucking women and slaves again playing a pivotal role in the defense of a polis....

HA HA HA HA!!!!

Perhaps that should be a new unit in future mods: Tile Chuckers. You could portray them as cranky old ladies.

[Revelation]

Historically, once the gate was open or a breach made in the walls, that was it, usually. I think once your guys set one sandaled foot inside it should be Game Over.


Not necessarily. One sandaled foot inside? No thanks. Once a wall/gate is breached, then ensues the bloody street fighting, where morals, formations and tactics basically go out the window. It's a fight to stay alive!
It's all part of the game.
Who's to say it's not part of an enemy tactic to allow the walls to fall and lull the enemy in, then WHACK! :charge:
As was mentioned earlier, turn off the battle timer or take the walls quickly.
I would prefer the no battle timer approach, as planning and prolonged sieges can be fun. I find a phalanx of Hoplite mercs to be most effective in the city streets. Have them march through slowly with peltasts close behind a perhaps a unit of Roman heavy infantry bringing up the rear.
Let the games begin! :duel:

[Oaty]

Revelation you've got a point there

Hanibal was lured into assaulting a city only to find that there was an ambush setup inside the city walls. He rallied his routing troops outside the city and left with his army in tact but apparently foiled any further plans to take the city

[pezhetairoi]

I remember how Philip II assaulted Perinthus but over the course of the assault discovered to his great annoyance that successively the Perinthiacs had built 6 layers of walls inside his original breach to forestall him. He got annoyed and gave up. Oh, but for the day we can do that...

[sapi]

I agree with the 'no timer' stance.