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11-29-2000, 20:04
My, Yamaga and Rob are making a patch to arrange out the units etc.

We will release it after 1.13, to be sure that nothing is overidden.

Now,

DON'T YOU THINK THAT SOME UNITS HAVE TO HAVE CHANGES IN THEIR COST? WHICH ARE THEY?

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

11-29-2000, 21:07
here... here... i know... i know.... the freakin' guns http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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the great lord http://www.geocities.com/vinyljock/monn_t.gif jd

Rob
11-29-2000, 21:34
I would say that doubling the cost of gun units would be a good idea. Alternatively the cost of archers could be reduced to, say, 250 or 225 (at honour 2).

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
11-29-2000, 23:02
Danged, Rob...i always miss ya online...
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Please folks, since we are already experimenting online, we would like you to post the exact costs of the units to change. We can therefore submit a list and begin testing when the (in)famous editor will be ready.

So let's make 300 and 350 the guns arq/mus
and btw 225-250 sa ?

BanzaiZAP
11-30-2000, 00:27
Guns more expensive than archers??? I think archers are far more versatile than guns! Both the usability in bad weather, and the greatly superior hand-to-hand. Since I'm an SP kinda guy, my words don't have much weight in the online world, but I'd make the guns more expensive, but keep the archer cost.

-- B)

Kraellin
11-30-2000, 03:35
um, why not just make it adjustable by the host. let the host set it up however he wants. you dont agree with his choices, dont play.

K.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-01-2000, 07:01
folks, kraell,

the thing here is that if we change the values, everyone will play with his own and u won't be able to play with but a minimal percentage of the total stw players.

when u go to flexibility, the compromise has still to be...with compatibility.

I have some ideas.
calculate the total number of unit values (30 or so...h-h, morale, mov, arm, def...and so on) and give a base to this with money.
(start from 100 koku = 100 man for a year supply/food + ammo, equipment, social caste)

then there's honour. i'd make it exponential (the higher it is, the moe expensive...100 200 400 600 1300 3000 49999 500000000 and so on) + add an ashi honor limiter.

THEN, there's testing phase,

then there's release of a standoff patch.

let's agree on some basic values, test them regardless the presence of an editor (at least with cost it is already possible) and then we'll have something concrete for the patch.

the more ppl come for the testing and with concrete (based on gamin exp) values, the more likely we will find a solution to adopt without having to GUESS on which values are ok.

Beware though, and i ll tell it once more, the bulk of armies were ashigaru. therefore, add some more koku 500-600 for guns (to make up for the scare and the fire-through-friends factor) and the rest is ashis.

History.

...and from history came sun tzu.
Use shock troops vs enemy weakness...but what then, if in stw the enemy has no weak troops but only samurais ?

i conceive the shock troop as a samurai unit and the elite of elite being monks.
as sun tzu says, it's monks vs ashi.

Would sun tzu conceive an army where the more easily killable enemy unit is a yari samurai unit ?

Rob
12-01-2000, 07:21
Yes but Sun Tzu never made computer games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

You are right though, testing is very important. If this is to happen at all, it will require significant input from the rest of the STW community. After all, if we want people to play the game using edited values, they need to be set at a level most people are happy with.

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-01-2000, 17:07
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
Yes but Sun Tzu never made computer games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Correct.
At that point in time, sun tzu even had little use for cavalry.
As history says, the bulk of armies were made by conscripted peasants armed as best as they could.
Among these ranks, there were few highly trained and equipped units being part of contemporary aristocracy. These were the elite.
Trained, well equipped and strong willed (they had the biggest spoils to share and their OWN lands and privileges to loose).

It is the feudal system. The chinese emperor was the supreme leader. Taxes were collected from his feudal lords who had the ruling of his lands, the working of his peasants and the levying of his troops ALL for the emperor himself but under THEIR responsibility.

In the armies, there comes the honor factor. Japanese samurais often refused to carry out their orders by singularly coming out of the rows and challenging the samurai leaders of the opposing armies' lines.
Don't forget that at the end of the battles, each warrior was rewarded by counting the heads he had "earned" on the field.

If we don't balance the game, we will have little use for ashigaru totally making this game upside down...why would i use ashigaru since they are so poor ? And believe me, if used correctly they are extremely important...and to this end, we must reduce the samurai numbers.
Folks, really encourage u to try!


You are right though, testing is very important. If this is to happen at all, it will require significant input from the rest of the STW community.

If this has to happen at all, it depends on you mostly http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

After all, if we want people to play the game using edited values, they need to be set at a level most people are happy with.

[/QUOTE]

Of course rob, ure correct again.
I am experimenting both in and offline with various unit combinations (the results are also in my file) and i have some things clear:

My results of course are satisfactory for me. But indeed i am a realism fanatic born for simulation and this game also has an arcade component.

If we go to the realism, then in an army of 1600 men, at least 1100 have to be ashi spearmen (with some gunners) while the rest are samurai.
This is a great input towards true tactics and historical battles.
For instance, having 500 samurai u know u have a selected elite force and an accompanying bulk of troopers. U are really able then to use shock troops on enemy weak sides (who can have a weak side when he has 4 guns and 4 monks ? We must push th egame to the use of mixed units!)

With the "rules" i am experimenting now, there's a deal of flexibility (u can choose between samurais) and an improved use of tactics.
Now that the armies are mostly made of ashigaru, a wrong tactic can prove fatal as well as a good tactic can lead to victory.

Before passing to the description of how the battles work with this system i will explain these rules.

1) Taisho MUST be in samurai unit
This for 2 purposes: one is for the routing/death of the taisho...if he is in samurai unit then the army really suffers a penalty, while often, when taisho is lost in a peasant unit, the rest of your army just doesnt care at all.Two, it is highly inaccurate having a taisho in ashis because the honour of the general has its importance, and rising an ashi general's honour, brings a total improvement for all the troops with LITTLE PRICE to pay. Not to mention, that only rebels, bandits and renegades had peasant leaders in history.

2) the ratio i am experimenting in these armies is 1-3. So, we have 1 sam taisho + 1 sam unit + 3 ashi units + 1 sam unit + 3 ashi units....making up an army, as i previously said, of 500 samurai and 1100 ashigaru.
(the taisho is NOT included in the 1-3 ratio)

3) i have introduced an honor limiter.
Best ashi honor is 3 while best sam honor is 5. This way we achieve 2 purposes: one is that an ashi will never be stronger than a samurai (as in the real thing) and at the same time, a honor5 samurai will be unable to defeat, IF players are expert, ashis used correctly (hold form, terrain and side/rear attacks).
What i mean is that by limiting the honour, we will not see impossible results, such as 1 monk unit routing 500 ashigaru.
With this system, monks will suffer heavy casualties bc while the ashis have worse performances, the monks will not have an extremely high honor to save them, but only the players' tactics. (help the monks for they are not invulnerable anymore)

Last rule regards the costs of units.
I am testing with arqs costing 400 and musks costing 600. By buying them at last u can keep money unused to simulate the new costs.
If a player wants guns, then he must pay for them and by rising this cost, we make sure of 2 things:
one, his army will have less numbers and therefore the attacker may really win without guns if he is good. Two, we balance the gun scaring factor and their ability to shoot through friends by allowing the players to have fewer guns on his side and having to be careful.
Guns honor is limited to 2 in my games.
Of course, think about this little detail, attacker is disadvantage in bad weather, he tires more quickly. Would u stop pls choosing rain to avoid enemy guns ? If we use this system attacker may as well choose a fine day, both if he has or if he has no guns.

This to the rules, next post for the results of the first tests.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-01-2000, 17:37
these are the first results i am having with this system:

Of course, the first very important thing is that movement, deployement and ranged fire gets extremely important for:

1) archers can rout ashigaru with bow fire

2) if u move ur army to attack and defender has placed his army accordingly, then using tactics is a MUST. U will really have to use shock troops on enemy weaknesses now that the enemy HAS weaknesses. If ur ashigaru are not used correctly, u will not be able to rout enemy elite troops and if ur elite troops are not used correctly, his ashigaru will kill them easily (REMEMBER! the numbers are different now and there's lots of soldiers on the field therefore u have many choices on where, which and when to attack for ur enemy has weak sides and u have as well!)

3) the hold form and hold posit, the wedge, close and loose formation are now extremely useful. If u want ur troops to win, u must use them. Ashigaru can absorb a lot when on favourable ground and in hold formation. The increased number of troops now will allow manouvering to flank and rear of the enemy, so while u can stand, u can also outmanouver ur opponent.

4) the forced use of ashigaru in the army makes this kind of matches a real chess game.
I seldom see an attacker coming to me in haste by charging my monks for he knows i would take him on his sides and he also has ashis, like i do. On the other side, when i am offensive, i know that every manouvre i make, is faced by the defenders' manouvres.
Even if i move an ashi unit on the left side, my opponent will move his troops as well. Decoying, hiding, skirmishing is much more important...as well as disengaging, circling and reattacking from sides.

This of course wouldn't be necessary if ur enemy only has samurai on that side http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The balance comes from the fatigue. Attacker has now more numbers and more choices. He can afford to make his troops rest even when they are not yet very tired.

5) scouting intelligence proves invaluable.
Defender has now a real advantage by hiding in woods. A single ashi charging from the woods behind you can deal a great damage and of course, flanking with cavalry, using the cav archers and skirmish tactics can prove victorious in more than a single battle.
Yes, now it is also advisable (especially for the defender) to use skirmish with h-h troops...especially if elite units are attacking ashigaru.

6) Guns are no more the winning factor. I used to play with 4 muskets and 3 monks only. Taisho musket with 7 honour, i could easily rout any enemy without use of h-h troops.
As things are now, the attacker can really choose the weather and can really defeat a gun defender. I told you, tactics now are extremely important.

Beware: using this system is highly realistic and surely nothing a player of shogun has ever seen yet. It is funny having all those different troops, all with weaknesses and good uses but it is not realistic. How to defeat an opponent who has the same starting koku u has and no weak sides ?
The problem is that the attacker has to move and arrives tired at defender's site and they both have the same starting koku. With this system, u can deal a blow on fresh enemy troops by using the shock on his weaknesses.

Ever thought of what is really a shock troop ? A shock troop is elite. And elite were very few. With this system, u will never face an enemy who has no weak side.

If any of you started playing with these rules, u would have to RELEARN to play shogun so don't get discouraged. Takes time to relearn how to play.
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With these rules, i can win with exp level and i can loose. And it depends not on the troops but on the tactics applied to the troops.
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The demonstration arrives when facing 2 defenders. How was it possible that i was defeated by 1 def in a 1 vs 1 and i won a 1 vs 2 ?

I had chosen a wrong tactic.
Folks, not only i encourage you to try this system, but also to experiment your own ideas.

Any of you wanna try it, my icq is 58294718. I will be eager to test it further with you.

Vanya
12-01-2000, 21:16
I am sceptical about the benefits of an unofficial patch to alter unit costs due to compatibility issues, as has been mentioned before. If you simply want to make use of armies with more ashigaru, I would suggest making a set of 'rules' like the one MagyarKhan put in his log file reader (ie, Napoleonic rules, Mongol rules, etc). This way, you simply request all players to use this (or other) set of 'rules'. I think the current costs are fine, and make for a good variety of army structures. I think making guns cost 600 is ludicrous; 1. they were dirt cheap to make, and 2. they were easy to train troops to use. Why then would you make them expensive like HC?!? If you dislike guns, then get guns yourself (beat fire with fire).

If values do become editable, then I agree that the value set should be made optional by the host. But, this may require the intervention of an additional patch in order to communicate new sets of values to players that joined that lack them for use with that single game. Perhaps these, if used, are best reserved as an 'alternate' cost structure which can be optionally used while still maintaining the original set of values as the default.

I hope I made sense...

Rob
12-01-2000, 21:47
Yes Vanya, I understand your opinion on this. The problem is that unit values are not editable currently, and some players want them to be. Aside from the severe difficulties I am having in actually making any of this work so far, there is the problem that you raise - incompatibilty. At the moment we don't really know how the Shogun program responds to having its data altered.

It might refuse to run (a distinct possibility if checksums are used, as they should be) or it might give a network mismatch error when playing against opponents with different patches. Worst case scenario is that it does run and allows people to cheat by modifying the unit values.

We will have to see about this but I assure I will not personally release anything which could be used to cheat in the game.

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-02-2000, 00:54
I think the costs are unfair.
guns were not dirty cheap to make and ammo/powder had to be prepared as well.
They cost more than archers for sure.

I think making guns cost 600 is ludicrous; 1. they were dirt cheap to make, and 2. they were easy to train troops to use. Why then would you make them expensive like HC?!?

Because a hc charging muskets will be torn to pieces and rout before any contact is made.
PLus the guns shoot through friendly units while hc cannot engage if a friendly unit lays in the middle.
Even the naginata rout, imagine shooting on a horse...as armored as it can be....

If you dislike guns, then get guns yourself (beat fire with fire).

Well i don't dislike guns but players who use them to cheat in the game.
A set of rules is important...many posts in various sites on the monk rush techniques for instance... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Yes, u made sense anyway but check the way of the daimyo and see how different the stw guns work if compared to real history.
175 is way too cheap.

Rob
12-02-2000, 04:26
Yamaga, I agree with you about guns, but....
The best way to attack guns is side-on, in fact they are extremely vulnerable when attacked in this way. If you charge horses at guns, the cost doesn't affect the fact that horses don't like being shot at, so attack from an angle that doesn't allow the musketeers to shoot at you!

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-02-2000, 05:49
Rob, what u say is completely right.

The problem is that gunners skirmish...and of course they are not alone out there.

Stop for a moment and think about the units behind the gunners. U split, u try to flank and BAM ! u get flanked by his troops and at the same time those danged musks keep firing on you at point blank and THROUGH his own men.

This means:
1) u get whipped by blades on your side.
2) u suffer from missile casualties at maximum impact for guns (point blank)
3) u suffer from the gun scaring factor.

----> u rout
------> the army behind you wavers and routs
----------> u loose.

Test:

1) Take 4 muskets, among them a taisho with honour 6 and add 4 monk units.
2) Focus all ur shots onto a single enemy samurai unit.
3) See his entire army rout as soon as u make contact.
4) Pursue the loosers to avoid them from rallying.
5) Collect a honorless, silly, absurd, unrealistic victory where tactics, history and fairplay are non-existent.
6) Imagine the helpless anger of your opponent. (i have been on the looser's side too! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

Rob, i tested it...i tried everything.
The only good move against a gun equipped enemy is to attack with rain unless u have guns yourself.
Of course, in Japan, they did fight in summer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Add to this, the evidence of tactics like the monk rush and see how sad this game becomes without any rules to prevent this from happening.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

DoCToR
12-03-2000, 23:39
I totally disagree with the this "guns should be more expensive issue!"

As units there are the most cowardly with them being likely to rout very easily http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Plus, any form of bad weather nullifies them completely as they are absolutely useless at hand to hand combat! So if you are a little worried about muskets then choose a rainy day! Otherwise if a nice day is chosen pick them yourself as your opponent most certainly will!?

Now if you are talking about Monks, well you may have an issue there....IMO monks are a little on the cheap side considering their devastating ability on the battlefield! Especially compared to the horrendously expensive and relatively useless Heavy Cavalry unit!

Doc

12-03-2000, 23:43
Heavy Cavalry useless?????????????

They are the only unit to beat Warrior Monks!

And annihilate all units except spears !

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Rob
12-04-2000, 00:33
I always laugh when I see my enemy using lots of Heavy Cav, though that might because half my normal army is Yari troops of one kind or another http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-04-2000, 19:31
answering to Doc mostly,

i have just faced link(one of them) and feared usami.

Here in the log it shows he (link) had 3 muskets with hon2, some samurais with hon2 (no dachi and monks mostly) and a horde of yashi with hon6.

It was heavily raining, and we had archers and high honour samurai units (no ashis) and their musks were useless.

Guess what ??
we lost miserably. The ashigaru killed us.

How much does it cost buying an ashigaru at hon 6 ? very cheap, compared to the annhilation of the BASIC cost/performance of samurais.

Doctor, by test: guns rout when charged in flank and rear as every ashi unit (sam have an increased morale and this is why they stand when charged from flank or rear)
And guns are usually ahead of your army.
this why they rout, bc u don't use them wisely.

...but thinking of it...there's no damn way to prevent ppl from cheating in this game. Especially those who choose extremely high honour ashigaru and then with the rest of their koku buy samurais (usami had 0 honored samurais).
They ensure themselves both numbers AND samurais.
This is totally unacceptable!

This game has nothing to do as it is now, with tactics, wisdom, experience and the like.
Who cheats more gets to win.
sadly.

Rob
12-04-2000, 22:08
I think you're going too far by called JstFeared a 'cheat' for using high-honour Ashigaru. That's not cheating, it's intelligent unit selection. Complaining about it just because you lost doesn't help.

Actually, Yari Ashigaru and Yari Sam perform similarly at similar cost. The main difference is that the Ashis are faster, but the Yaris have better morale and armour.

High-honour Ashigaru are by no means a super-unit - they still rout more easily than Samurai with lower honour and it requires a good Taisho (which JstFeared certainly is, having played over 1000 battles) to make proper use of them.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

ShaiHulud
12-04-2000, 23:33
I'd bet that JstFeared ALSO was playing you in a friendly, too. I think he's experimenting (His experiment worked! hehe).
Anyway, what you noted is only ahistorical, not cheating. And if STW is anything, it's about re-writing history.
Re: Guns....In the new campaign guns should be more costly early on, less so when Japanese copies become more available and gunpowder manufacture is more widely based.
175 for muskets seems cheap but it's probably not out of line. Rather than change the cost just make battle either pre or post guns or set time periods(by date in history) where guns are available but in limited amounts.


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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Yamaga Shimazu
12-05-2000, 00:05
Rob,
im not saying just is a cheat, i say he exploits the weaknesses of the game by paying 384 koku for a yari ashi and defeating a monk at honour 4 which costs 980. Therefore, why buying a single monk with 980 when u can have THREE yari ashi at the same price ?
This is it.
I wonder if there hadn't been raining using their musks they would have killed us much worse.
I frankly didn't have any fun, while sometimes i am happy when loosing when i see i fought bad, i chose wrong tactic and the like.
Knowing how to win and to loose is a good trait and i have it.

But think about it, Rob, i could have taken 10 muskets and taisho of honour 9 and few hon2 ashis and killed him without any fun thanks to the gun scare and fire through issues. And u bet he would be saying the very same words i am typing referring to me myself! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Proper (smart) selection of units has nothing to do with the game we played.
We faced monks vs ashis and we lost. (numbers of course, given the costs, made up for the unit values and honor added to them made them worth it)...the ridiculous thing is that we fought with monks and no dachi while they fought with ashis and very few low honored monks.

It's not cheating when there's no rule to break. But surely there's no sportsmanship, good leadership or technique in the victory they achieved today.
A good taisho knows that hon 6 yari ashigaru do not exist. A good player, deployed with monks, archers and no dachi, in rain against an army of peasants, 3 monks and useless musks, knows he could never loose if the game worked as it should.

NOTE, we were 16 units each, so they didn't even benefit for numbers Rob, he had on the other hand 3 useless units (the musks) so not only he was outnumbered in hth but also in missile fire.
We had monks and no dachi mostly, they had ashigaru mostly.

They just the applied personal experiences with stw which made them understand how to use the bugs...how to exploit them best, how to pay lesser price to achieve best performance by using the bugs of the game.

This is what i was meaning when i talked about cheating.

Rob, the honor/cost of units is the MAIN thing for which the editor is needed.

The yari sam and ashi will NEVER ((((((NEVER))))))) perform the same at ANY cost because the ashis cost half and at high honor they value double their cost.

We have already discussed it. We have shown and seen they actually become samurai units with a different cost when at high honor.

I think that no matter the costs, ashigaru units can NEVER, in any case be better than samurai units.
It's my gaming philosophy, and it's history...it's not a matter "i lose u win" or "he loses i win" ...it's a matter of realism.

You could talk about tactics, about good leadership, but not in this case, believe me.

High honor ashigaru ARE super units, they rout more than samurai, but they cost half, rob....and at high honour they are a lethal thing. MUCH MORE than the price they cost
shows.

Rob
12-05-2000, 00:48
There is a balance to be struck between historical accuracy and 'fun'. I still believe that this game does a good job of balancing the two.

Different people have different tastes; if you don't like being beaten by ashigaru then work on your tactics until you can beat them! It can be done, otherwise everyone would use 100% ashigaru armies.

Your suggestion that Samurai units should be given more advantages over ashigaru would force people to use 100% Samurai armies. That in itself is totally historically inaccurate; armies of the period had more ashigaru than samurai.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Rob
12-05-2000, 00:50
There is a balance to be struck between historical accuracy and 'fun'. I still believe that this game does a good job of balancing the two.

Different people have different tastes; if you don't like being beaten by ashigaru then work on your tactics until you can beat them! It can be done, otherwise everyone would use 100% ashigaru armies.

Your suggestion that Samurai units should be given more advantages over ashigaru would force people to use 100% Samurai armies. That in itself is totally historically inaccurate; armies of the period had more ashigaru than samurai.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-05-2000, 17:58
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob:
[B]"There is a balance to be struck between historical accuracy and 'fun'. I still believe that this game does a good job of balancing the two."

I think it has nothing historical but the names of the taishos (perhaps) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical that rising a samurai unit cost more than a peasant unit and a peasant beats a samurai in hand to hand combat...
And another example, ain't historical that equipping peasants with 100 arquebueses is cheaper than equipping samurais with arrows and bows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ain't historical seeing ashis at honour 6 for instance...given the use of ashis in battle, desertions, death and the like prevented an expert, reliable force strong enough to defeat Ikko-Iki fanatic monks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical taishos being peasants...unless they are bandits.
...and most of all, ain't historical gunners shooting through friends and at the same range archers shoot http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


"Different people have different tastes; if you don't like being beaten by ashigaru then work on your tactics until you can beat them!"

I have a tactic myself Rob, i just buy a gun taisho hon9 and 4 muskets, the tactics are then dead (no tactics were used by both sides, they just threw ashis against monks head on and they won).
Besides, as i told you, i wasn't beaten by ashigarus, but by samurais disguised as ashigaru. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Link must have saved some money on their dresses, food, caps and shoes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif As to their performance, they were much better than my monks.

" It can be done, otherwise everyone would use 100% ashigaru armies."

Of course it can be done, look at the monk rush...but again, where's the tactics ? Look at the muskets in line shooting on same enemy unit and making 1000 man rout one after the other, where are tactics ?
In the levying of the army perhaps...who has more guns, more monks, more of this, more of that...this is not tactics rob, has nothing to do with manouvres, shock troops (where's the shock troop in an army of 1000 samurai and where is the enemy weak troop in an army of 800 monks and 200 naginata ?)


Your suggestion that Samurai units should be given more advantages over ashigaru would force people to use 100% Samurai armies.

I m not saying Sam should have an advantage over ashigaru but the contrary, that ashigaru and sam are BASICLY different and the ashi inferiority should be kept as it is regardless of honor. My point is to show you all that an ashigaru being stronger than a samurai should cost a million dollars!

The thing to work on is the fact that at high honor the ashis beat lower honored samurai units without need for tactics and this is unacceptable.
Balance got upside down in the way...a samurai can't be worse than an ashi. If this happens, history and realism is overthrown.
Think of it, over the 70% of armies were made of ashis...but they were in no way better than samurai, just more numerous and had to be bolstered by samurai to avoid general routing.

"That in itself is totally historically inaccurate; armies of the period had more ashigaru than samurai."

This is true rob, but ppl in this game use them as shock troops and by giving them high honor they pay a cheap price and kill monks which cost a lot more.
Rememeber also, that honor affects the rally-rout factor.
This why those ashis never routed against my monks....just to remind you, my monk costed 980, each of his ashis costed 384.
Are u sure this is fair, realistic and fun ?

Rob, just for the sake of testing, why don't u try playing vs the ai in custom battles and see how different battles go with same tactics but different honor ? All u need to do is change the honor of ONE enemy unit and using the same tactic against that side of ai army.
You will undoubtedly see that at some point (around honor 3) the units forsake their basic values and the game becomes totally unbalanced.

You seem to be talking as if i cared i lost with link and just...i actually don't. But had no fun, thats all. When i saw their armies i didn't quit just to make THEM have fun and being sportsy.

How do u justify that those 6 hon ashis didn't loose against my hon4 monks ?
How do u justify that not even ONE of those ashigarus routed before my monks ?
And how do u justify my monks routing against ashigaru in a head to head clash ?

If i were you, i wouldn't DARE answering: by tactics.
Don't forget they were being hit by arrows and fighting fresh monks on plain totomi land...link and just had bought guns, so they were even without missiles and with money spent on useless troops.

All of these issues, being the thing moving me towards the "rules" i posted in here.
Rob, i seek balance and realism, not victory in multiplayer.
The only victorious move would be the one of making ur army withdraw when u see ur opponent is too strong...and frankly, its quite astonishing that you would justify this principle when having to face 800 ashigaru and 500 no dachi with your 400 monks, 200 no dachi, 400 yari samurai and 300 archers.

Of course, his ashigaru never routed.

Please Rob, don't say they won by tactics.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-05-2000, 18:00
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob:
[B]"There is a balance to be struck between historical accuracy and 'fun'. I still believe that this game does a good job of balancing the two."

I think it has nothing historical but the names of the taishos (perhaps) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical that rising a samurai unit cost more than a peasant unit and a peasant beats a samurai in hand to hand combat...
And another example, ain't historical that equipping peasants with 100 arquebueses is cheaper than equipping samurais with arrows and bows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ain't historical seeing ashis at honour 6 for instance...given the use of ashis in battle, desertions, death and the like prevented an expert, reliable force strong enough to defeat Ikko-Iki fanatic monks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical taishos being peasants...unless they are bandits.
...and most of all, ain't historical gunners shooting through friends and at the same range archers shoot http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


"Different people have different tastes; if you don't like being beaten by ashigaru then work on your tactics until you can beat them!"

I have a tactic myself Rob, i just buy a gun taisho hon9 and 4 muskets, the tactics are then dead (no tactics were used by both sides, they just threw ashis against monks head on and they won).
Besides, as i told you, i wasn't beaten by ashigarus, but by samurais disguised as ashigaru. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Link must have saved some money on their dresses, food, caps and shoes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif As to their performance, they were much better than my monks.

" It can be done, otherwise everyone would use 100% ashigaru armies."

Of course it can be done, look at the monk rush...but again, where's the tactics ? Look at the muskets in line shooting on same enemy unit and making 1000 man rout one after the other, where are tactics ?
In the levying of the army perhaps...who has more guns, more monks, more of this, more of that...this is not tactics rob, has nothing to do with manouvres, shock troops (where's the shock troop in an army of 1000 samurai and where is the enemy weak troop in an army of 800 monks and 200 naginata ?)


Your suggestion that Samurai units should be given more advantages over ashigaru would force people to use 100% Samurai armies.

I m not saying Sam should have an advantage over ashigaru but the contrary, that ashigaru and sam are BASICLY different and the ashi inferiority should be kept as it is regardless of honor. My point is to show you all that an ashigaru being stronger than a samurai should cost a million dollars!

The thing to work on is the fact that at high honor the ashis beat lower honored samurai units without need for tactics and this is unacceptable.
Balance got upside down in the way...a samurai can't be worse than an ashi. If this happens, history and realism is overthrown.
Think of it, over the 70% of armies were made of ashis...but they were in no way better than samurai, just more numerous and had to be bolstered by samurai to avoid general routing.

"That in itself is totally historically inaccurate; armies of the period had more ashigaru than samurai."

This is true rob, but ppl in this game use them as shock troops and by giving them high honor they pay a cheap price and kill monks which cost a lot more.
Rememeber also, that honor affects the rally-rout factor.
This why those ashis never routed against my monks....just to remind you, my monk costed 980, each of his ashis costed 384.
Are u sure this is fair, realistic and fun ?

Rob, just for the sake of testing, why don't u try playing vs the ai in custom battles and see how different battles go with same tactics but different honor ? All u need to do is change the honor of ONE enemy unit and using the same tactic against that side of ai army.
You will undoubtedly see that at some point (around honor 3) the units forsake their basic values and the game becomes totally unbalanced.

You seem to be talking as if i cared i lost with link and just...i actually don't. But had no fun, thats all. When i saw their armies i didn't quit just to make THEM have fun and being sportsy.

How do u justify that those 6 hon ashis didn't loose against my hon4 monks ?
How do u justify that not even ONE of those ashigarus routed before my monks ?
And how do u justify my monks routing against ashigaru in a head to head clash ?

If i were you, i wouldn't DARE answering: by tactics.
Don't forget they were being hit by arrows and fighting fresh monks on plain totomi land...link and just had bought guns, so they were even without missiles and with money spent on useless troops.

All of these issues, being the thing moving me towards the "rules" i posted in here.
Rob, i seek balance and realism, not victory in multiplayer.
The only victorious move would be the one of making ur army withdraw when u see ur opponent is too strong...and frankly, its quite astonishing that you would justify this principle when having to face 800 ashigaru and 500 no dachi with your 400 monks, 200 no dachi, 400 yari samurai and 300 archers.

Of course, his ashigaru never routed.

Please Rob, don't say they won by tactics.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-05-2000, 18:08
Rob,

I think it has nothing historical but the names of the taishos (perhaps) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical that rising a samurai unit cost more than a peasant unit and a peasant beats a samurai in hand to hand combat...
And another example, ain't historical that equipping peasants with 100 arquebueses is cheaper than equipping samurais with arrows and bows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ain't historical seeing ashis at honour 6 for instance...given the use of ashis in battle, desertions, death and the like prevented an expert, reliable force strong enough to defeat Ikko-Iki fanatic monks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical taishos being peasants...unless they are bandits.
...and most of all, ain't historical gunners shooting through friends and at the same range archers shoot http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


"Different people have different tastes; if you don't like being beaten by ashigaru then work on your tactics until you can beat them!"

I have a tactic myself Rob, i just buy a gun taisho hon9 and 4 muskets, the tactics are then dead (no tactics were used by both sides, they just threw ashis against monks head on and they won).
Besides, as i told you, i wasn't beaten by ashigarus, but by samurais disguised as ashigaru. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Link must have saved some money on their dresses, food, caps and shoes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif As to their performance, they were much better than my monks.

" It can be done, otherwise everyone would use 100% ashigaru armies."

Of course it can be done, look at the monk rush...but again, where's the tactics ? Look at the muskets in line shooting on same enemy unit and making 1000 man rout one after the other, where are tactics ?
In the levying of the army perhaps...who has more guns, more monks, more of this, more of that...this is not tactics rob, has nothing to do with manouvres, shock troops (where's the shock troop in an army of 1000 samurai and where is the enemy weak troop in an army of 800 monks and 200 naginata ?)


Your suggestion that Samurai units should be given more advantages over ashigaru would force people to use 100% Samurai armies.

I m not saying Sam should have an advantage over ashigaru but the contrary, that ashigaru and sam are BASICALLY different and the ashi inferiority should be kept as it is regardless of honor. My point is to show you all that an ashigaru being stronger than a samurai should cost a million dollars!

The thing to work on is the fact that at high honor the ashis beat lower honored samurai units without need for tactics and this is unacceptable.
Balance got upside down in the way...a samurai can't be worse than an ashi. If this happens, history and realism is overthrown.
Think of it, over the 70% of armies were made of ashis...but they were in no way better than samurai, just more numerous and had to be bolstered by samurai to avoid general routing.

"That in itself is totally historically inaccurate; armies of the period had more ashigaru than samurai."

This is true rob, but ppl in this game use them as shock troops and by giving them high honor they pay a cheap price and kill monks which cost a lot more.
Rememeber also, that honor affects the rally-rout factor.
This why those ashis never routed against my monks....just to remind you, my monk costed 980, each of his ashis costed 384.
Are u sure this is fair, realistic and fun ?

Rob, just for the sake of testing, why don't u try playing vs the ai in custom battles and see how different battles go with same tactics but different honor ? All u need to do is change the honor of ONE enemy unit and using the same tactic against that side of ai army.
You will undoubtedly see that at some point (around honor 3) the units forsake their basic values and the game becomes totally unbalanced (this why in solo game they get the LEGENDARY attribute).

You seem to be talking as if i cared i lost with link and just...i actually don't. But had no fun, thats all. When i saw their armies i didn't quit just to make THEM have fun and being sportsy.

How do u justify that those 6 hon ashis didn't loose against my hon4 monks ?
How do u justify that not even ONE of those ashigarus routed before my monks ?
And how do u justify my monks routing against ashigaru in a head to head clash ?

If i were you, i wouldn't DARE answering: by tactics.
Don't forget they were being hit by arrows and fighting fresh monks on plain totomi land...link and just had bought guns, so they were even without missiles and with money spent on useless troops.

All of these issues, being the thing moving me towards the "rules" i posted in here.
Rob, i seek balance and realism, not victory in multiplayer.
The only victorious move would be the one of making ur army withdraw when u see ur opponent is too strong...and frankly, its quite astonishing that you would justify this principle when having to face 800 ashigaru and 500 no dachi with your 400 monks, 200 no dachi, 400 yari samurai and 300 archers.

Of course, his ashigaru never routed.

Please Rob, don't say they won by tactics, ok ?

Yamaga Shimazu
12-05-2000, 18:18
Rob,

Ain't historical that rising a samurai unit costs more than a peasant unit and a peasant beats a samurai in hand to hand combat...
And another example, ain't historical that equipping peasants with 100 arquebueses is cheaper than equipping samurais with arrows and bows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ain't historical seeing ashis at honour 6 for instance...given the use of ashis in battle, desertions, death and the like prevented an expert, reliable force strong enough to defeat Ikko-Iki fanatic monks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ain't historical taishos being peasants...unless they are bandits (different from ronin).

I have a tactic myself Rob, i just buy a gun taisho hon9 and 4 muskets, the tactics are then dead (no tactics were used by both sides, they just threw ashis against monks head on and they won).
Besides, as i told you, i wasn't beaten by ashigarus, but by samurais disguised as ashigaru. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Link must have saved some money on their dresses, food, caps and shoes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif As to their performance, they were much better than my monks.

Defeating that kind of army canbe done ?
In the levying of the army perhaps...who has more guns, more monks, more of this, more of that...this is not tactics rob, has nothing to do with manouvres, shock troops (where's the shock troop in an army of 1000 samurai and where is the enemy weak troop in an army of 800 monks and 200 naginata ?)

I m not saying Sam should have an advantage over ashigaru but the contrary, that ashigaru and sam are BASICALLY different and the ashi inferiority should be kept as it is regardless of honor. My point is to show you all that an ashigaru being stronger than a samurai should cost a million dollars!

The thing to work on is the fact that at high honor the ashis beat lower honored samurai units without need for tactics and this is unacceptable.
Balance got upside down in the way with playability, with the free choice of any troop type with any honor.A samurai can't be worse than an ashi. If this happens, history and realism is overthrown.

Think of it, over the 70% of armies were made of ashis...but they were in no way better than samurai, poorly equipped and not experienced as samurais. They just were more numerous and had to be bolstered by samurai to avoid general routing. (samu units were behind them and if they routed they would slay them).

ppl in this game use ashis as shock troops and by giving them high honor they pay a cheap price and kill monks which cost a lot more.
Rememeber also, that honor affects the rally-rout factor.
This why those ashis never routed against my monks....just to remind you, my monk costed 980, each of his ashis costed 384.
Are u sure this is fair, realistic and fun ?

Rob, just for the sake of testing, why don't u try playing vs the ai in custom battles and see how different battles go with same tactics but different honor ?
You will undoubtedly see that at some point (around honor 3) the units forsake their basic values and the game becomes totally unbalanced (this why in solo game they get the LEGENDARY attribute).

You seem to be talking as if i cared i lost with link and just...i actually don't. But had no fun, thats all. When i saw their armies i didn't quit just to make THEM have fun and being sportsy.

Don't forget they were being hit by arrows and fighting fresh monks on plain totomi land...link and just had bought guns, so they were even without missiles.

Rob, i seek balance and realism, not victory in multiplayer.
The only victorious move would be the one of making ur army withdraw when u see ur opponent is too strong...and frankly, its quite astonishing that you would justify this principle when having to face 800 ashigaru and 500 no dachi with your 400 monks, 200 no dachi, 400 yari samurai and 300 archers.

Not a single ashi unit routed there.
Please Rob, don't say they won by tactics.

Rob
12-05-2000, 19:53
I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that Ashigaru are that good. I've used high-honour Ashis before and I don't think they're that great. And I have some numbers to prove it! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

It costs 196 koku for an honour 4 Yari Ashigaru. It costs 200 koku for an honour 2 Yari Samurai.

However, since Yari Samurai have +3 defence over Yari Ashigaru, the +2 honour doesn't even catch up! Yari Samurai still have more armour than Yari Ashigaru, and Ashigaru still have that horrible morale penalty.

The real advantage of ashigaru is that they are faster, which gives a Taisho the opportunity to out-flank his enemy.

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

serg
12-05-2000, 21:59
Yari Samurai still have more armour than Yari Ashigaru, and Ashigaru still have that horrible morale penalty.

According with this site (Strategy/battels/units) Ashiragu have armour 2 and Yari Samurai armour 1
(but ashi have defence -2)

Vanya
12-06-2000, 02:21
The cost of the units reflects more the cost of training than the cost of manufacturing the actual weapon used. Since a samurai trained their entire life, they naturally cost more than a hapless peasant going through some weeks of training on how to use a gun. Thus, I find that the costs of guns are fine. Especially when considering their numerous disadvantages. Jack up the honor of HC, and they do well even against yari units; I have seen them beat a yari sam unit head on when their honor is high.

But, if unit costs are to be editable, I think they are best done via game setup options alongside province selection and season selection. This way, the numbers count for that single battle only, and the player that joins can choose to fight the battle or not even if he does not have the new costs himself since they will be transmitted with all the other game info. This way, you can predefine your own cost lists, and select one for a game, and allow others to accept it or move on. Naturally, these values would then have to be communicateed in the log file too.

On the ashigaru issue: who is to say some hapless peasant can't be skilled in the ways of war? Surely there must have been good peasant soldiers in Japan. If you stab a samurai, does he not bleed or die just like the peasant? Fire gun volleys into those ashigaru and their honor will dissipate fast... courtesy of that infamous morale penalty.

Perhaps HC should impart a morale penalty on those it charges similar to that that monks impart on buddhist enemies in the campaign. This might make them more valuable and balanced; not to mention it would make them formidable even against those battle-hardened ashigaru marines you hate so much.

Perhaps we just need options to cap honor or unit numbers instead of altering the costs. This way, you can select an option at game setup to limit any unit to say 3, and cap honor at say 4. This will certainly remove the "super ashigaru" from the game if you do not enjoy facing them.

I suggest reading that CheaterShogun Wannabe thread on the community site for a good laugh on the use of guns.

Vanya
12-06-2000, 02:25
Uh... sorry... shooting at ashigaru doesn't dissipate their honor per se, but the effects of their honor.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-06-2000, 03:51
Rob,

It costs 196 koku for an honour 4 Yari Ashigaru. It costs 200 koku for an honour 2 Yari Samurai.


However, since Yari Samurai have +3 defence over Yari Ashigaru, the +2 honour doesn't even catch up!

Catches up rob, in the rout-rally they have a penalty which is unbalanced by their honour.

Yari Samurai still have more armour than Yari Ashigaru, and Ashigaru still have that horrible morale penalty.

U seem to misunderstand Rob, when an ashigaru routs, the samurai stand, when a samurai routs, most samurais follow.
So...how about the morale and the honour ? Look, at honour 4 an ashi fights with +1 (+2-1=+1) and a ys honor 2 fights with +1 (1+0=+1) as well. A yari ashigaru at 6 fights with +2. It BEATS a yari samurai at hon 2. The ys costs 200, the ya costs 384.
There you go...ashis beating samurais. No morale bonus/penalty applied when u are winning...this why they didn't rout.

As from the battlefield calculator : last man standing 12 ashigaru hon 6 vs ys samurai hon 2.

And i think u know what happens when your samurais rout...and u know what would happen if your enemy's ashis rout.
If you rout, you have lost.
If he routs, his samurai will stand firm and have the chance to kill your tired men.

This quite makes up for the 384 vs 200 koku.

Rob
12-06-2000, 04:02
Well if I was spending nearly twice as much on a unit then I would expect them to be better!

What, exactly, do you propose ashigaru should be used for? Cannon fodder?

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-07-2000, 14:36
U see Rob,

Ashis were not only cannon fodder when needed to be, they also were the bulk of an army, and when i say a bulk, i mean they were its main force.
For a moment, we should remember that this game has most certainly been studied and projected to be played in solo campaign mostly, where the +3 honour is reached by LEGENDARY units. As to the multiplayer, don't forget we have 15 yr old players and what best than to give 'em the chance to play with many colored, different, funny and nice moving units ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

In reality, while most of troops were peasants there were indeed samurais on the battlefield. These were to be supported in manouvering and in numbers by the ashigaru.
If an ashi exceeds honor 3 then, indeed we may say it's no more an ashigaru unit, since its performance could be better than that of a samurai unit. This is it...i would like ashigaru and samurai to pay a (((LOT))) more than that to reach high honor, this to at least decrease the ill effects of honor on stats.
According to me, an ashi who has 3 is elite already compared to normal ashi standards.

1) desertion count
2) death by enemy or friends swords
3) unloyalty

prevented the ashi units from having the great experience hon3 and more they try to simulate in this game.

As it is, an honor limiter AND the change of those costs (the fixed 40% x honor level) of high honored troops should be rised.
This would give the other player a chance to counteract with weaker, but more numerous units.
The same speech about high honor is including the samurais as well.
I have acknowledged that ALL high honor troops make this game...a game, not a simulation and all of this leads to poor tactics and sheer use of force against weaker units.

Of course, if an ashigaru has hon6 it is no more possible to say that it represents a weak spot of the enemy army (and this unbalances the game, an ashi honored 6 will most certainly beat even heavy cavalry) and it should be, else what the shock troops are needed for if not for attacking weak spots ? And by allowing ashis to reach that high, we are CANCELLING the weak spots.

On the other hand, having an army of a bulk of ashigaru (as it should be) and seeing an enemy who has hon 6 samurai units is wrong too...it makes ashi numbers useless, for when one routs, they will all do.

So, high honor unbalances the game (Rob, it is a FACT, unquestionable, tested...the origin of the editor idea and if u want, i can prove it on the battlefield).

Give some rules like some honor limiter or fix the prices and there u go. Armies will be different in composition and yet similar in power (ashi power, the bulk as i told earlier).
To win, u will have to use tactics...and not just launch ur army in a blind charge, knowing that ur honor will make it !

Yamaga Shimazu
12-07-2000, 15:59
Just to clarify...and to make sure noone is asleep or absent minded:

We agree that the HC is the strongest unit in the game and that the ND should be
increased in costs a bit, now look at this:

HC costs 600 at hon 2 and ya cost 100 (5 times less) the battlefield calc says that
given the current hon of the units (2), a head on would bring this result [120 man units]:

Last men standing : HC with 26 men

therefore if we added just ONE hon point to the YA, there would be a draw. And
that honor increase would cost 40 koku for a total price of 140 koku.
Keep in mind that the hc player will have tired hc and only 26 men in. (just to make sure u realize what's next in the battle...so, not only this clash but look to the future)

With 140 u can draw 600...and maybe even win (terrain, woods fatigue can even the odds in the battlefield).
I can agree to that. Spears have a definite advantage against horses. The +4 is not now in discussion. The honor is.

To ensure victory then, HC should spend 240 MORE koku.
Of course, even if the ashis routed, they wouldn't carry away samurais.
What then if the hc routed instead ? Yes, half of its army would rout with it.
So, the player has th hc and spent lot of koku, if he looses the hc his army will rout awhole.
The other player has spent very little and if he looses tha ashis his army of sam will NOT rout.

the point is that to win against those ashis, the player with the samurai must spend more for his honor, while the player with ashis will spend much less. Can u imagine the tremendous and irrealistic behaviour of those ashis at hon 6 ?!?!?

THIS the reason why high honor unbalances the game. And, as usual, i not only have tested it out, but also have calculation proofs.

Rob
12-07-2000, 17:08
I agree that cavalry do very badly against Yari units in general.

My question is:

what do you want Yari Ashigaru to be?

Rob
12-07-2000, 17:10
Besides, anyone who charges spear units head-on with cavalry needs some tactics lessons http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Yamaga Shimazu
12-07-2000, 21:04
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
I agree that cavalry do very badly against Yari units in general.


My question is:


what do you want Yari Ashigaru to be?[/QUOTE]

------------------------------------
Rob, it seems u don't read my posts...lol
Ashis are fine as they are in STATS.
According to me, they should be limited in honor to be realistic. Failing in this, the cost for their honor increases should be changed. (The famous 40%) but the first solution is the best.

A thing is living by bushido for the whole life, another thing is living by cows, rice, pigs and harvesting.
We should reflect this in the game.


And...uhm...i almost never get cavalry, rob, that was just an example.

Rob
12-08-2000, 00:35
But by limiting the honour of ashigaru, you are limiting their use; You would be saying that ashigaru can only be used effectively in low-koku battles.

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Puzz3D
12-08-2000, 05:58
Yamaga: I understand what your saying about Ashigaru being transformed by raising their honor. However, I don't think they are unbalanced. They're just not Ashis anymore. My tests in custom battle show H6 Ashi loosing to H2 Monks by 2:1. I tested this both ways in custom battle at normal difficulty. You have to get to H7 Ashi to defeat H2 Monks, and they then cost more than the Monks. The H6 Ashi do fight until only about 10 are left out of a 60 man unit. Actually, wouldn't leaving all units at H2 and adhearing to your unit type ratio pretty much get the historical accuracy you're shooting for. I could see HC being made a little more effective, and guns a little more expensive. Guns shooting through friendly units does seem to be a bug.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-08-2000, 15:41
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
But by limiting the honour of ashigaru, you are limiting their use; You would be saying that ashigaru can only be used effectively in low-koku battles.[/QUOTE]


Rob, read the rules again, i am limiting the honor of samurai to 5 as well to prevent them from being ashi-killers.

If we say: 0 is green, 1 is regulars, 2 is veteran and 3 is elite...
the balance between ashis and samurais will be manteined only if both have same limit.

But while i am inclined to think that living by the cow and the rice can make a peasant achieve hon 3 maximum, the samurais living by the bushido can indeed perform great deeds in battle for honor. This is why their honor is currently limited to 5.
In armies of 1-3 ratio, they represent lethal shock troops but balance is still mantained for a unit of ashis can still hold its own in battle.

I am amazed about the differences the game shows when fighting battles with more/less than 10000 koku.
According to me, there's really no need to increase koku more than 10.000 for multiplayer battles.


The real problem we have here is that no reinforcements are allowed in multiplayer...and that there can only be 16 units on the field at the same time....else a battle with 500.000 koku would STILL be balanced thanks to the honor limiter and the ratio.

As things are now, with free honor, all units will behave unrealistically no matter what the starting koku amount is.
Teraz and i, have set a time of the day in which we will daily test these rules and we have had quite some results.
(19.00 GMT+1) everyone in this forum is invited to join us.
Once u get used to the system and the calculations implied by different cost for guns it becomes very easy. And believe me, it works.

No more that important to attack in rainy days. Deployement, ambush, ch'i-cheng, manouvering and formations are the key.

...and honor won't save you if u choose wrong tactics, since ur opponent cannot have monstruous troops and both armies behave realistically.
U have my icq# rob, try it.

Rob
12-08-2000, 19:04
I think the reason I feel compelled to argue with you is that you are talking about 'limiting' honour of certain troops, preventing certain things which are possible today.

It is possible to limit Ashigaru honour now - by agreeing this with your opponent. Samurai honour can be limited by setting the koku value below 10000.

I like having a varied army, with few limits on my choices; all units are capable of beating other units if I use them correctly. Likewise, my opponents can make their unit choices as they see fit.

Last night I was beaten by a player who had 4 honour 3 muskets and 4 honour 3 archers. The rest of his army was monks. I don't complain, cry foul or claim that this is 'cheating'. I simply won my next 4 battles. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-08-2000).]

Yamaga Shimazu
12-09-2000, 01:18
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
But by limiting the honour of ashigaru, you are limiting their use; You would be saying that ashigaru can only be used effectively in low-koku battles.

[/QUOTE]


No rob, not limiting their use but making sure that they are used as they really were.
Truth be said, an ashigaru is a peasant. No matter how much starting koku are implied, they >should< seldom be able to fight better than a samurai unit (with the fundamental exception of the cavalry).
If u check the rules list, u will notice that sams have their limits as well.

It is evident one thing : high honor makes the impossible possible in battles. This true both for sam and ashis.
Honor limiter, applied to sam units will render ashis valuable.

The only real problem at this point is not the koku (10-100-1000-10.000 or 100.000 is the same if balance is mantained thanx to honor limiter) but the maximum number of units on the field, which is of 16 units per army.

Should this be surpassed (with or without reinforcements), we could have well balanced and realistic armies of 10.000 ashigarus and 3000 samurais where STILL all unit types would be important.
Test the rules Rob, then u will see.

Yamaga Shimazu
12-09-2000, 17:17
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
But by limiting the honour of ashigaru, you are limiting their use; You would be saying that ashigaru can only be used effectively in low-koku battles.

[/QUOTE]


I hate it when my netscape 6 crashes !!! i had already answered to this!
lol

Rob, i am not limiting the hon of the ashigaru, but the honor in general.
It is absurd that a farmer or a shepard might be fighting better than a samurai living by bushido for all his life.

Since this happens at high honor i am testing the honor limiter as well within the rules that i would like you to re-read.
In the sections of the rules and in a subsequent post, i explained what is their purpose and what/how they work upon the game to reach their goal.

Every rule has an explanation.
Please read them again Rob...i am afraid u cannot understand my exact meaning if you don't.
We are discussing over two different things...practically you are discussing over the problem i am solving.

If you have read the rules, and if you have tested them you must have seen it is not as you are saying now but as i am saying.

Test the rules in custom battle and in multiplayer. With me if possible, even as a witness.

I am not playing stw anymore but another completely different game. Wanna try it ? :-)

Yamaga Shimazu
12-09-2000, 17:37
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Yamaga: I understand what your saying about Ashigaru being transformed by raising their honor. However, I don't think they are unbalanced. They're just not Ashis anymore.

Yes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif and it is what i am trying to see changed.

My tests in custom battle show H6 Ashi loosing to H2 Monks by 2:1. I tested this both ways in custom battle at normal difficulty. You have to get to H7 Ashi to defeat H2 Monks, and they then cost more than the Monks. The H6 Ashi do fight until only about 10 are left out of a 60 man unit.

Yes, and AGAIN, omg...how many times i must repeat it...H6 and H7 honored ashis should cease existing !!!!!!
I have tested both in custom and in multiplayer test and i personally defeated monks and no dachi with 3 or 4 units of well used ashigarus with hon 2 and 3.
You can ask Terazawa, he knows it happened.

Once Teraz also was able to kill my taisho in monk hon5 unit with a single ashigaru unit.
So i demand to test it with you. In experimental games, i defeated monks which had higher honor with low honored ashigaru. And i lost monk units against low honored ashigaru. You are telling me that ur ashigarus lost vs the monks so i ask you testing. My icq # 58294718.

Actually, wouldn't leaving all units at H2 and adhearing to your unit type ratio pretty much get the historical accuracy you're shooting for.

The only units limited to hon2 are the guns, the limits are 5 per samurai and 3 for ashi spears.

I could see HC being made a little more effective, and guns a little more expensive.

Cavs need honor to be effective.
Guns shooting through friendly units does seem to be a bug. [/QUOTE]

Yamaga Shimazu
12-09-2000, 17:49
Message for all:

I ask you ALL to get in touch with me via icq#
58294718 to test the rules with me.
I would like us all to be testing them together so that all of you see what i am talking of and can discuss after some battles, and then in forum.

Kraellin
12-11-2000, 08:14
hi guys,

i'm baaaa-aaack! hehe, boy, you guys have been busy here.

ok. here's the deal. i have been following this thread a bit while i was away. i couldnt respond because i couldnt recall my pw. lol.

all of the arguements presented above are based on parameters of the game and how it deals with certain things ...or not. and that's the problem. vanya said it a while back and i'm surprised no one else picked up on it. adding honor points is NOT adding honor. it's adding TRAINING or, at best, it's adding both honor and training. there may be some of both but mainly it's adding training. this naturally begins to screw things up in how we think about the game since the honor points are mis-labeled. thus, we tend to get a bit confused.

the game utilizes an honor system, a training system and a morale system and interacts all three of these to produce varying effects and results during combat. yamaga seems to be complaining about realism and would like the game to be more of a simulation than an arcade type action game. that's fine. rob is saying that he likes the extra options the honor/training points provide. ok, that's fine too. and that is why we need more options in a unit editor than to just adjust one or two stats or options. WE LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS! lol.

one point about yamaga's ashi thing and 'living by the cow and rice' and living by bushido. seems to me that if you train an ashi well enough he would BECOME a samurai. isnt that all a samurai is, a trained peasant? so perhaps we do limit the training points put into an ashi to make it a gradutated scale going from a really bad peasant rising to a really good samurai. simple.

i still say if you're going to tweak ANY unit costs or honor then you're going to have to allow for the ability to tweak them ALL. as soon as you open pandora's box about being able to change ONE unit stat at all, then yer going to have to allow the host to change ALL of them. seen it too many times, guys. you'll actually get more bitching by changing one than you will be never changing any. so you have to allow a 'host' to change and set up any he wants any way he wants or dont bother changing any of them, ever!

that yamaga wants his games to be set one way and rob another is fine! that's actually how it shld be! someone argued earlier about my post on making options that no one would ever be able to find a game he would be happy playing because everyone would want their own parameters. but in actual fact, from playing many previous multi games where many setup options were available, this is NOT the case. games still get played. it may require you to play someone with their options set and the promise that they'll then play it with you as the host using your parameters, but games will be played.

with the honor points system we sometimes forget that you cannot buy honor in real life. and guess what, you cant in the game either. you could say, for the sake of this game, that honor is what keeps a soldier on the field of battle even when he knows he's going to lose or die. that pretty much transfers in the game to NOT RUNNING AWAY. by adding honor points this does occur to some extent, but it also affects other factors, as vanya mentioned. what is really needed is some system where one could adjust all 3 factors, honor, training level and starting morale.

if we take the base concept of fleeing during battle then we say at zero honor ANY unit will flee easily. the game seems to add hidden values to units to prevent more 'elite' units from doing this. it also assumes that all peasants have no or even minus honor, which is totally ridiculous. i've known peasants with more honor in their little fingers than a ton of so-called 'honorable' elites. honor is not ability. it's not a training level or morale. it can affect morale by a great deal in real life. a person can KNOW he's going to die and still do the honorable thing, like throwing himself on a hand grenade to say his buddie's life. now THAT'S honor! so please, let's get these terms straight and figure out what's really be calculated by what here.

honor can affect fleeing in that even if a person goes into complete apathy about his situation, he still remains where he is to face his doom. so honor affects morale or at least can diminish the effects of morale or perhaps even keep morale from lessening or all of the above.

training can also affect morale. a person who is fairly well trained has more confidence and more certainty that he can win in whatever situation he is in, thus, more morale, especially if he has an idea about his opponent's level of training.

morale is little more than confidence or emotional level. one can be enthusiastic about the upcoming battle and said to have high morale. as he sees his opponents have better armor and other well trained units, that confidence or emotional level might drop a bit, such that he's now only cheerful rather than enthusiastic. as combat is joined and he begins to see his buddies drop to the ground his morale may drop to mild interest or boredom or even antagonism. from there it might get worse and drop to anger or hate and so on. next down the list would be terror and fear and THAT'S when he may begin to take flight. from there it goes down to grief and apathy and then he just gives up completely and quits trying at all.

now where honor comes into play is that even if his confidence and emotional level drop through each of those levels, his code of honor, his beliefs about how one shld live and right and wrong and so on tell him that he shld not flee regardless of how bad things are going. depending on how strongly he believes these things regardless of the fact that there is a heavy horse and extremely well trained rider coming to take his head, he may or may not take flight.

the game creators didnt separate out these things at times. or at least some things arent evident if they did. we all know there are some hidden stats and factors that we cant see. and at other times it seems they got them crossed up with one another, making for some confusions here and there.

for myself, i've got some fairly large grievances about how some of this stuff works. try making a HC honor 9 unit sometime and take it way out away from your main body to circle WAY around your enemy and tell me what happens. heh.

so, let's start talking about the same things here and be a bit more careful about our labels and definitions of things.

yamaga, we really do understand your points about realism and putting tactics back into the game...WE REALLY GOT IT! thanks ;)

i do find it interesting, yamaga, that you've already created that realism and tactics by simply inviting others to play by your rules of combat...what that heck to you need an editor for? *grin*

whelp, time to get back to the game and my map making. glad to be back. ;)

K>

Yamaga Shimazu
12-12-2000, 16:08
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraellin:
[B]

the game utilizes an honor system, a training system and a morale system and interacts all three of these to produce varying effects and results during combat.

i know kraell...but honor also makes 7 monks standing still in fight while u have killed 53 out of 60.
So it's all about koku buying honor which is both itself TRAINING and MORALE.
Frankly, the bushido u can train and still with some limits, but the way of the cow and of the rice ? :-)

yamaga seems to be complaining about realism and would like the game to be more of a simulation than an arcade type action game. that's fine. rob is saying that he likes the extra options the honor/training points provide. ok, that's fine too. and that is why we need more options in a unit editor than to just adjust one or two stats or options. WE LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS! lol.

True, this why we are using the editor to patch the game :-)
Besides, Rob liked it when he saw it kraell, i think the detractors should test it first.
Just recently, Dave answered that the normal ratio between samurai and ashigaru on the field was around ONE SAMURAI per FIFTY ASHIGARU. ...so, this to those who wanted all sam units and cav beefed up and the like.
The only REAL problem is that no matter the rules, there's a single limit. SIXTEEN UNITS.
else we could still have battles with unit ratios but with those big ashigaru numbers.
Dave also said that YS are NOT realistic.
The samurai weapon was never a YARI (the halberd of the poors) but a sword or a naginata. Surely then no yari equipped samurais were ever raised.
These 2 addenda are undergoing testing right now.

one point about yamaga's ashi thing and 'living by the cow and rice' and living by bushido. seems to me that if you train an ashi well enough he would BECOME a samurai. isnt that all a samurai is, a trained peasant?

No Kraell... in this moment you have just said a "bestemmia" an heresy :-)
The peasant was threatened and his family starved if he didnt fight.
If he routed, the samurais would have passed him with the sword...of course he could be trained...but not as much as to reach even honor 3. (still testing if 3 is too much for an ashi, will let ya know)
The samurais were a social caste, noblemen, warriors, and not farmers. Who do u think is trained better ? The stats are different yes, but who do u think would fight better if trained ?

so perhaps we do limit the training points put into an ashi to make it a gradutated scale going from a really bad peasant rising to a really good samurai. simple.

Not that much. If u limit the ashi without limiting the sam as well then the game will be unbalanced.
Come Kraell, test it 58294718 ! :-)

yamaga, we really do understand your points about realism and putting tactics back into the game...WE REALLY GOT IT! thanks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Very cool kraell, and truth be said, the system works fairly. Though still needs testing.

i do find it interesting, yamaga, that you've already created that realism and tactics by simply inviting others to play by your rules of combat...what that heck to you need an editor for? *grin*

Let's say i want archers to shoot farther and restricted camera to be more restricted. Displaying units in woods when enemy is much closer...
this needs an editor...and of course, the main reason is that u fix these rules i thought of into an editor, then patch the game and those who want use these rules awhole, the others play as they feel like :-)
simple.