Faction symbols and banners [Archive] - Page 2

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 21:57

aah don't know about that, but if you liked the features I made a combination or blend if you like
https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5088/prevaofmagyar43uj.th.jpg (https://img203.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar43uj.jpg)

I think the colors was a little lame at the first, and at the same time the bird looked a little rotten.

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 22:19

Quick normandy change... maybe not top-notch but it's right from bopa-pic
*removed*

GoreBag

07-03-2005, 22:53

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 23:40

All the icons so far, except the few I will address here, have been basically excellent. Scion, you've done an awesome job. I especially like the Welsh and Saxon icons.

The new Norman doesn't seem striking enough. It's not that I don't like the serpent, it's just that the serpent doesn't stick out enough. Mostly a size issue, I'd say.

The latest Bulgar icon looks good, but the lion seems a bit...pencil-drawn. Would it be possible to make it look more like an engraving or something like that?

As for rebels...hmm. The big shield looks best at a large size, but the skull is more distinctive at a small size, and looks positively badass. I think the skull is the way to go.
Norman: agree!! it sucked!!! really sucked!!!! ~:) i mean it. way too quick
Bulgar: okay i agree it seems pencil drawn, and I think it looks okay. however, it's like we think magyar is so way much better since its more fancy, so I will give it some engraving. magyar-style features (not the same, and must be typical) is also welcome as its maybe to plain compared.

Rebels: if skull is the way to go, I will make them good sizewayz in the game... skull the way to go? all agree?

Renly

07-04-2005, 00:13

I'm sold on the skull.

King of Atlantis

07-04-2005, 06:45

skull looks the best!

Incongruous

07-04-2005, 07:32

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 08:08

Okay you actually liked the engraved look? Will do...

On the norman symbol: what's your source on this? Just curious...

Incongruous

07-04-2005, 08:15

Well, I was looking at the Beyaux tapestry and saw some Norman knights carrying a flag with that sybol, so I then looked into my history books and they all clarified that the universal Norman symbol was the three serpants, and then I started looking round from teh internet for some places where this symbol might have been shown and low and behold I found the symbol in some italian city.

Stormy

07-06-2005, 18:18

I like the first rebel symbol located at the upper left corner. The skull is pretty nice also. Hard choice.

ScionTheWorm

08-16-2005, 11:52

Forgus

08-16-2005, 12:14

On the Magyar one maybe you could bring back the engraved look but keep the gold?
On the Balgar Khanate, make the lion silver and its mane gold?, the Bulgars and the Magyars were increadibly rich peoples, the Magyars more so(after about five-10 years after settling in the Carpathians). They were not simple steppe people, think of them, more like the Huns after a few decades of smashing and bashing the Romans, or the Mongols after they had quashed china. ~D

I really dunno wether or not they were lavishly rich or not, nevertheless they were remarked as people who looked very rich. (I mean clothing and jewelry, harness, weapons stuff like that)
One more thing they were silver maniacs. While they recognised gold to be more valuable, they prefered the looks of silver and they used it mostly...
BTW I relly liked the turul bird you made. Cool.

Meneldil

08-16-2005, 12:18

Rodion Romanovich

08-16-2005, 12:19

two questions:

for normans, should the symbol be 1.) the tail or 2.) the three leopards?

(I think 2.) will look best but don't know what's historical correct)

which magyar icon is best?

I'll finishing the icons now I think

I think no.2.

Scion, could you also post or PM to me a list of faction colors, RGB values, so I can post that list in the first post in this thread for reference? QuickDagger needs to know the faction colors when making shield skins etc., and it will soon also be needed for the campaign map. Above all, primary faction color for all factions should be decided as soon as possible. Secondary colors are less important, and don't even have to be unique - they can even be the same as another faction's primary color etc. But the primary color must be unique.

ScionTheWorm

08-16-2005, 12:23

ScionTheWorm

08-16-2005, 12:26

Bulgaria
Primary color: 82 132 129

Hre:
Primary color: 16 15 24
Secondary color: 243 222 118

Denmark:
Primary color: 211 197 182
Secondary color: 32 42 42

Edit:
What I've done on the gaels is give them both unique looks, but same shield style. I think rtr 6.0 works really good, with very few faction colors at all. Actually I think it works best

The Normans only had 2 leopards. The third was added later by an english king.

And the 2 leopards were not the first symbol of the Normans, but I don't remember which one they used before. I'll check my osprey.

For the magyar, I don't know if you already have an idea, but this site is full of pics from magyar tools and crafts. Maybe you'll find some hint here :

http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index1.html
we sort of have decided to use the tirul, so if anyone posted here works okay, tell me...

two leopards it is, will fit better

Forgus

08-16-2005, 12:28

The Normans only had 2 leopards. The third was added later by an english king.

And the 2 leopards were not the first symbol of the Normans, but I don't remember which one they used before. I'll check my osprey.

For the magyar, I don't know if you already have an idea, but this site is full of pics from magyar tools and crafts. Maybe you'll find some hint here :

http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index1.html

Cool source, I didn't know this...
Nevertheless the symol must be a Turul in red and silver (Hungarian national colours until the middle ages) ornaments can be aquired from this site. I really liked the engraved look. Alternatively the pocket lid (like a sporran) can be used as a symbol. The Hungarian euro will have this on... ~:cool:

Meneldil

08-16-2005, 12:32

Yeah, faction colors for units is kinda crappy IMO

Meneldil

08-16-2005, 16:58

Btw, do you have a symbol for the French and for the Khazar ?

For the french, the fleur de lys wasn't used before 11th or 12th century.

For the Khazar, I have a pic of their 'official' banner.

Rodion Romanovich

08-16-2005, 17:39

will do, but it seems that I do not have all the icons avaliable today, will get them soon (change of location).

but should we really have faction colors? won't banners be enough out on the battlefield?

Faction colors are primarily for minimap and different icons etc. on the strategy map. The clothes parts of the skins shouldn't be affected by the faction colors, but the shields may, occasionally.

I think we all, or a vast majority, agree on not affecting the clothes by the faction colors, but what are the opinions on letting shields be affected by it?

Personally I think that if there is a shield pattern that doesn't require any particular color, and it's really possible to choose any base color for the pattern, then the faction color could be used for the skin. However this only applies to more the type of troops that historically used heavily decorated shields. For, say, a militia that put together their shields in half an hour and created a spear as quickly, the shields would probably be more accurate to have wood colored, thus faction colors on that shield would be out of the question.

ScionTheWorm

08-17-2005, 00:23

I think for instance not all norwegian vikings should have red shields. I just think this makes them seem too alike - when they are already alike in looks and with the banners, it doesn't matter. also it takes away some more realism where I think all units should be so unique as possible. banners is enough for me. aloso on strategy map, I think a norse diplomat should have brown clothes and not red. It's just not necessary, and takes away realism and replaces it with a more cartoonish style I think. we should when skinning and making graphics think about that particular unit and not the faction as a whole.

I think no faction colors at all for instance works well with my faction icons style; realistic and more photoish than vanilla. why making an effort to take away this? why have faction colors?

I just can't see why... we're all intelligent players here. not meaning to sound harsh, just really wondering... ~:)

GoreBag

08-17-2005, 00:51

I think the "royal" units, or family members (at least the leader), should have the faction's symbol on their shields. Isn't that how heraldry works - it's all highly personalized, but the leader of the faction should represent the faction as a whole. He IS the faction, after all.

I'm going to try to stop using the word "faction" as much as possible from now on.

ScionTheWorm

08-17-2005, 00:59

would be cool if the familymembers had shield with the faction symbol! but not necessarily colors, would be ok on a metal background also I think. But would be easier too see the general.

I think the "royal" units, or family members (at least the leader), should have the faction's symbol on their shields. Isn't that how heraldry works - it's all highly personalized, but the leader of the faction should represent the faction as a whole. He IS the faction, after all.

I'm going to try to stop using the word "faction" as much as possible from now on.

No say it again...

GoreBag

08-17-2005, 02:49

Has anything been planned for the kings' bodyguards for any faction? The Gaelic factions stick out in my mind..what will the family members have for units?

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 08:23

Ok I agree to your arguments. Sounds good. Only place to use the faction colors then, will be on the minimap. We could use the toned down versions from the symbols, or use slightly more saturated colors for this. I'll experiment and see.

Meneldil

08-17-2005, 09:03

http://www.hampshireflag.co.uk/world-flags/images/t/tr!hazar.gif

Khazarian flag

Meneldil

08-17-2005, 12:22

Hre:
Primary color: 16 15 24
Secondary color: 243 222 118

By HRE, do you mean Germany or Lotharingia ?

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 12:27

Germany

Edit: About that Khazar flag - the sources speak of the battle standard as looking different (I posted something about it in this thread way back, but can't seem to find it). The flag above is also the modern flag of Kazakstan (or however you spell it ~:) ), and doesn't look early Medieval. The historical standard however didn't sound very interesting either, so instead we choose a cool more religion-influenced symbol, which IMO looks very good. It has the silver of the historical battle standard, so I think we should without doubt keep it.

Meneldil

08-17-2005, 19:13

Alritgh.

Btw, Scion, your symbols are trully superb :)

ScionTheWorm

08-19-2005, 15:57

thank you mendil, I'm pretty satisfied with all up to now.

I'm going away for another week now, but more important, I've reinstalled everything on my computer where there was a lot of issues holding me back from doing anything, and I'm very ready to work on the mod after that. will continue skinning, and you'll hopefully get a lot of progress on that front the next weeks.

As said, I'm pretty satisfied with the faction icons but will do this:
- Bulgars: Golden engraved lion quite similar to the one that's already posted. Should be silver or gold?
- Magyar: should fit the colordescriptions above, but keeping the major look of it.
- Normandie: two lepoards, dark blue and white.

So if we could concretize these magyars unit list and decide which to have in the mod it would be great. Saw there was another new unit list posted, though not complete I think... if you get some list for another faction it is very good that too. but as sooner we get these, you'll start seeing units posted ~D

and will prepare a large preview on gaels first, when I finish some more units. Shouldn't take too long when I get to it.

btw those map previews really kicks ass... I have to make some city graphics for our times cities for that strategy map if nobody else want to, that will really do the trick. haven't got my soundcard installed so haven't gotten to listen to your piece legio.

Meneldil

08-19-2005, 16:16

Could you tell me the other faction colors ? It would really kicks ass on the map ;)

As for the new cities, I think we should discuss what they should look like. I'll receive the Osprey 'Fortification in Wessex 800 - 1066" and "Norman Castles in Britain" next week, and thus, I'll have some pic.

Unhappilly, I'm still facing a hard ctd when adding provinces in France and Germany. I'm going to do the rest of the map, and then I'll try to see what's going on here.

ScionTheWorm

08-19-2005, 16:24

I'm sorry - I don't have all the icons avaliable, should get them when I return. HRE is by the way heilige rømischen reich

ScionTheWorm

08-19-2005, 16:29

In the meantime I think these are somewhere near the appropriate colors:
Norway: dark red
Sweden: light blue
Denmark: light light brown
Irish: Yellow
Scots: Dark blue
Normandie: Dark grey/blue
Welsh: Green
Saxons: Dark red/almost brown
French: blue
Hre (germans): black
Asturia: red
Al andalus: warm yellow (a little orange)
Magyar: Green?
Bulgars: Thracecolor, as above
Khazars: Brown or silver
Byzantine: Purple or silver
Novgorod: Brown/yellow
Abbassid: yellow
Lotharangia: Green
Papal states: off white

QuickDagger

08-24-2005, 01:14

All right Scion, I´ve got it.

I agree with all the discussion above. I´m working on a plain viking shields set right now. Something made only of wood and leather, but that could be unique for each faction.

About the special units carrying the faction symbols on their shields. Nice idea but, something extra would make the battlefield more rich. I mean, whenever you see Vikings on the books none of them carry similar shields, so the more the number of different shield symbols on the battlefield, the more the game will be "historical".

Dager out !

Meneldil

08-24-2005, 18:07

I don't want to be a pain in the ass with faction symbols, but here are more accurate flags for the welsh (the red dragon on white and green background was used only after our timeframe)

Borrowed from the fury of the northmen topic ::
http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/pics.html

Meneldil

08-27-2005, 11:11

After much researches, I came to the conclusion that Fleur de Lys and Imperial Eagle don't fit at all woth History. The Fleur de Lys is tyically a capetian symbol, and the Imperial Eagle wasn't used before the Ottonian dynasty (end of the franksih empire)

Here are more accurate symbols, from coins of the 3 frankish kingdoms :

http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/fontenoy.htm

ScionTheWorm

08-27-2005, 13:05

These are.. coins? Okay I could do that, but they look very very similar and quite boring to me. Really boring... i think it would work for the HRE "image" though. So I can change these, but quite frankly I think they all look the same. Better suggestions?

About the welsh I was very satisfied with that one. I would like to keep the colors if I have to change the motive

Meneldil

08-27-2005, 13:14

Actually, the coins are almost the same yeah. I'll try to find better stuff, cause these aren't really exciting, I agree.

I once saw Charlemagne's authograph (sp?) and it looked great, I'll try to find it back, and see if I can find something similar.

As for the welsh, I don't think it's really important. If you're willing to use some of your time to change the motif, we may aswell use the same colors. You have the last word, since you're making the icons ~D

In the meanwhile, here's a cooler coin (on the left). that's how carolingians kings signed papers.

http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/fcbob.jpg

Rodion Romanovich

08-27-2005, 13:17

I'm not sure about those coins. As for the Welsh, too many faction symbols are red, it's a PITA to see the difference between them then, especially when they're resized for the smallest versions. Also, the faction symbols can be anything historically related to the faction between 843 and 1099, as it was changed with dynasty changes rather than faction conquests in most cases, so it's not unjustifiable to have a Capetian symbol IMO, as the symbol won't change to Fleur de lis at the time the Capetians took over. But if you think it's really unhistorical and don't agree with me, well, let's see if those coins can be made so they look good as faction symbols.

Meneldil

08-27-2005, 13:23

Well, I don't really care about the Eagle for the Eastern Empire, since I've seen a lot of Eagle on Carolingians items, but the Fleur de Lys would be really sucky. If the mod starts in 843, I think factions should have the symbol they really used, and not one that was used centuries later (first recored use of the Fleur de Lys : 1211).

Rodion Romanovich

08-27-2005, 13:31

Ok, 1211, then I agree ~:)

ScionTheWorm

08-27-2005, 14:29

I do not mind changing these frank icons, but even with just a glimpse I can see the coins won't work at all - you know, a good icon makes you wanna play that faction. Normandie should have the same "theme", for instance this shield I have used. The coin motive maybe for one, allthough I would prefer something less abstract and less like papal and asturia. Keeping the colors for the welsh is because I think that's the right image for them, with longbowmen and their forest wimps.

could use christian motives if it's a lack of appropriate symbols. the colors should give the right association alone. Give me a good symbol and I will make the faction icon look good

ScionTheWorm

08-27-2005, 15:05

normandy 1st candidate...
https://img390.imageshack.us/img390/5021/prevaofnormandie8mm.th.jpg (https://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofnormandie8mm.jpg)

Meneldil

08-27-2005, 15:22

Nice :)

Well, maybe we can change the Western Frankish Icon, and leave the imperial eagle for the eastern one ?
I'm going to find a better icon anyway (for the western).

What kind of symbol is planned for central frankish ?

Edit : when you have time, I wouldn't mind having all the correct colors for each faction :)

Ranika

08-27-2005, 19:15

Since the talk of flags has come up again, I'll cross post this from the faction thread;

So there is no confusion, I recommended the harp on a blue field as the flag of Ireland because it was Brian Boru's royal seal. Ireland as a whole did have an official royal seal (the modern flag of Munster; three crowns on a blue field), but Brian was the first king in a very long time to actually exert any clout. The blue field-harp did not become the seal at all (aside from Brian's reign) until Henry the 1st made it the official symbol of the kingdom of Ireland (after claiming title), but it wasn't recognized by the Irish chiefs until the 17th century. However, the modern harp isn't quite the same as the harp of Brian, which had a nude female figure on it, but I feel that you may prefer the modern harp, as is used by the Irish government today, and is more recognizable. However, if you'd prefer Brian's harp (and have the patience to change it), you can see a simple image of it at the site I list below; or, if you'd prefer the modern flag of Munster (technically the most accurate, I suppose, as it was the general mark of the High King at the time, and the flag of the Desmumu, the drognan from which Brian came):

http://www.heraldry.ws/

I never really elaborated much, and I know it's late to, but it never really came to mind to, and I'm sorry to bring it up so late.

caesar44

08-27-2005, 21:32

http://www.hampshireflag.co.uk/world-flags/images/t/tr!hazar.gif

Khazarian flag

What does it mean ?

ScionTheWorm

08-27-2005, 21:47

Nice :)What kind of symbol is planned for central frankish ?

i thought you were doing the planning now? ~:)

Meneldil

08-27-2005, 23:03

Well, I thought you already had an idea about that ~;)

Rodion Romanovich

08-28-2005, 08:32

normandy 1st candidate...
https://img390.imageshack.us/img390/5021/prevaofnormandie8mm.th.jpg (https://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofnormandie8mm.jpg)

Very good!

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 13:41

TEMPORARY FACTION ICONS OVERVIEW

Okay this is it, the time to make the finish. Can't remember all the changes I have to make, so please concretize them now.. I remember some colorchanges on magyars and some catholic changes. Harp for irish?

- Are the cultures right?
- What are the full faction names for all factions? Khazars, bulgaria etc.

https://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4067/iconstemp010yv.th.jpg (https://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iconstemp010yv.jpg)

Note: some noise around the borders of some icons, just me being lazy. Will take care of it later..
Faction colors (rgb) will come when I have all finished...

We should get the banners done. Can share the pds-files when they are done..

Kagemusha

08-28-2005, 13:53

Those are simply beotifull. :bow:

caesar44

08-28-2005, 14:00

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 14:11

I think it's funny how people don't realize things like this before seeing it in a picture, so visualizing it is very helpful... however now is the time to figure that stuff out ~:)

Meneldil

08-28-2005, 15:15

Wait a moment ~;) Austria became a political entity just in 955 or 976 and the mod begins in 843 ???
about the original name -
in English - "Eastern realm"
In old German - "Ostariichi"
In medieval Latin - "Marchia Orientalis" (eastern border)
~:cheers:

There's no Austria in the mod.

The icons are lovely :)

Actually, I think cultures are

Franks (formerly Romans) : Western and Eastern Frankish Kingdom, Roman Empire (Central Frankish Kingdom), Papacy

Catholics (formerly barbarians) : Scot, Irish, Welsh, Saxon, Asturia

Byzantine (formerly Egypt) : Byzantine Empire

Arab (formerly Carthage) : Abbasid Caliphate, Al Andalus

Steppe (formerly eastern) : Khazar, Bulgar, Magyar

Vikings (formerly greeks) : Svea Riket, Normmanland, Dan Mark, Novgorod

A few suggestions about names :

France and Germany should be Western and Eastern Frankish Kingdom, either in latin or in german. The Holy Roman Empire was in 843 the Central Frankish Kingdom (which wasn't called Lotharingia either)

Shouldn't Al Andalus be Ommeyad Caliphate ?

Maybe Novgorod should be changed to Varagians (or a swedish equivalent). At this time, Novgorod wasn't really bigger than Starya Ladoga (another trading settlement in Russia)

For Eire and Welsh, they probably should be renamed to the name of the province owned at the start (Gwynned for the Welsh, and I don't know what for the Irish). Gwynned principalty or something like that. The same could be said for the Englisc (> Sussex ?)

PseRamesses told me that Svea Riket did not exist back then. I'd change it to Uppsaland. Same for Normmanland. In 843, there was still a lot of petty kingdom, who would later be unified by Harald Fair Hair from the Kingdom of Agder.

That's just my opinion, and I might be wrong on some points ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 15:18

when did asturia disappear?? what is asturia replaced with?

Meneldil

08-28-2005, 16:59

Asturia is in the mod. Austria isn't ~;)

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 17:07

shit that's why I didn't understand at all what he was talking about ~D
(Eastern realm??)

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 18:37

A few suggestions about names :

France and Germany should be Western and Eastern Frankish Kingdom, either in latin or in german. The Holy Roman Empire was in 843 the Central Frankish Kingdom (which wasn't called Lotharingia either)

You're probably right, but it's so boring...

For Eire and Welsh, they probably should be renamed to the name of the province owned at the start (Gwynned for the Welsh, and I don't know what for the Irish). Gwynned principalty or something like that. The same could be said for the Englisc (> Sussex ?)

I disagree, since it's the kingdoms to come in some years. If the kingdoms in 1050 is named Èire, Englisc etc, I also think they should be named that in 843 in our mod. The player and the ai will take land and be imperialists, and the future names will be appropriate. So weird to be a large empire named after a town in wales, or have captured all of england and not be known as englisc. Just my opinion.

PseRamesses told me that Svea Riket did not exist back then. I'd change it to Uppsaland. Same for Normmanland. In 843, there was still a lot of petty kingdom, who would later be unified by Harald Fair Hair from the Kingdom of Agder.

Same here as over...

See it this way: in the game, if you start with agder in norway: capture one or maybe two provinces and you are already normannaland.

caesar44

08-28-2005, 22:04

Asturia.....my mistake.... :embarassed: :embarassed:...

caesar44

08-28-2005, 22:19

Btw , it's (now) Asturias ~D and before - Regnum Astorum , but may be you are talking sbout some thing else... :embarassed:

ScionTheWorm

08-28-2005, 22:58

it's easy to see wrong hehe... but no austria ~D

ScionTheWorm

08-29-2005, 20:32

ranika what was that correct harp for irish?

Ranika

08-29-2005, 20:56

The most correct would be 'Boru's Harp'; it looks much like the modern Irish governmental seal, but had a nude women forming the bow. Most modern depictions of 'Boru's Harp' lack this, and instead use the Laigini harp on a blue field (the current faction icon). Alternatively, the three crowns of Munster (the modern flag of Munster) was also the flag of Ireland once, so either works.

Archbaker

09-07-2005, 15:53

ScionTheWorm

09-07-2005, 16:09

How come you have chosen a red background for the Asturian cross? I've never seen an Asturian flag that wasn't blue, and I thought you were trying to limit the use of red.

Speaking of red, though, I notice that you are using the raven-symbol of the original Danebroge as the faction symbol of Danmark. Is there any reason the red and black of that flag is not used as the faction colours of Denmark?

I just recently heard of this game and thought it sounded really cool, so I am not here to tell you how to do this. I was just surprised about the choise of colours for these two factions.
Actually I think we should rather limit the blue, the color red isn't that much used. We're got a new faction symbol for them now, rather bronze/red, and I guess it's mostly to give them the spanish feeling.. I was partly the one that chose those colors, and it's mostly because I didn't like the swedish colors on it.

Raven symbol yes, new faction icon here too. This faction color is mostly dominated by a little dark grey/brown color, no special reason actually. I guess we all liked to have them this way in MTW, and we didn't really have any better alternatives

Archbaker

09-08-2005, 09:54

Hmm. I don't suppose you would like to swap the colours of Norvegia and Daenmark, then? Probably not as their faction symbols look really good the way they are. I don't think you should, either, but the black/red could have looked great on their banner.

I feel a bit more strongly about Asturies. Asturies is much older than modern Spain and I think it deserves to be portrayed as a country of its own. Further, Wikipedia tells me that the colours of modern Spain are (probably)those of Aragon and Catalunia, and I find that too far from Asturies and Gallicia.
But then I haven't seen your newest design for Asturies, unles it is the one with the Asturian cross on red, and maybe I will be surprised.

I don't expect you to change anything--I would be surprised if you do--but I hope you don't mind my input.

And on a related note, as you can probably tell I am quite psyched about this mod and if I can do anything to help please ask me. I don't know anything about computers, but I write item descriptions for http://soulforge.ipbhost.com/ and am not bad at it.

ScionTheWorm

09-08-2005, 12:36

I don't mind, and asturias flag is now on a bronze background, much more undefinable in color than the one over. the vikings also have new symbols, where denmark do have some colors. I don't think we're going to change this with the vikings. if my asturia icon was totally wrong (and it was), I would - but now it's different.

Fianóglach

09-16-2005, 20:24

Just a suggestion for the Irish faction, at the time of the mod the Irish would not have used the Harp, as it was granted to Ireland as a National symbol by Henry VIII in 1491,(He thought the three crowns were a bit too 'pope-like') up until that time Ireland used the three crowns as our symbol. To represent the Three Kingdoms of Ireland at the time. Much alike the present day flag of Munster. Also the National 'colours' of Ireland at the time would have been Yellow and Blue, to match our lovely banner of course ~;)

http://www.heraldry.ws/regional/munster.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Real_Munster_Flag.gif

And the proper spelling is Éire not Èire. ~:cheers:

Great work on this mod lads I'm really looking forward to it!

Duncan_Hardy

09-16-2005, 22:11

Henry VIII in 1491

I assume you mean Henry VII??? Henry VIII didn't accede to the throne until 1509 ~:cheers:

Also, I notice that you gave the German Faction the name of "Heiliges Römisches Reich". I believe, however, that not only was the German vernacular never applied to the confederation's name in the medieval period (it would have gone by its Latin name, "sacrum Romanum imperium" - note the case), but also the name (or at the very least the spelling) would have been different in Old German (the concept of Hochdeutsch did not arise until long after the Rennaissance).

The faction "Normandie" was also Scandinavian in culture in the 9th century, and did not even come into existence after the Danish siege of Paris (c.885). I think this is considerably later than the start date.

BTW, my German skills aren't that great, so feel free to reject my advice about the HRE. If, however, you need help with the French side of things, I may be able to help with translations and names and whatnot (I speak fluent French, and have some experience with Old French). Oh, and I have a smattering of Latin. But I'm guessing you have better guys than me who could handle that side of things ~D

Rodion Romanovich

09-17-2005, 08:36

I assume you mean Henry VII??? Henry VIII didn't accede to the throne until 1509 ~:cheers:

Also, I notice that you gave the German Faction the name of "Heiliges Römisches Reich". I believe, however, that not only was the German vernacular never applied to the confederation's name in the medieval period (it would have gone by its Latin name, "sacrum Romanum imperium" - note the case), but also the name (or at the very least the spelling) would have been different in Old German (the concept of Hochdeutsch did not arise until long after the Rennaissance).

The faction "Normandie" was also Scandinavian in culture in the 9th century, and did not even come into existence after the Danish siege of Paris (c.885). I think this is considerably later than the start date.

BTW, my German skills aren't that great, so feel free to reject my advice about the HRE. If, however, you need help with the French side of things, I may be able to help with translations and names and whatnot (I speak fluent French, and have some experience with Old French). Oh, and I have a smattering of Latin. But I'm guessing you have better guys than me who could handle that side of things ~D

We know about the Normandy problem. But we've come to the conclusion that it's the best way of implementing it, as it was a very important faction and wouldn't be possible for the player to establish. The Danelaw on the other hand can be established by the player or AI, which is why it didn't become a faction.

Duncan_Hardy

09-17-2005, 13:30

So you're taking the same approach as CA did for Parthia? I suppose that's sensible enough. They should be very weak, though, to simulate their non-existence for the first 40 years.

Fianóglach

09-19-2005, 18:48

I assume you mean Henry VII??? Henry VIII didn't accede to the throne until 1509 ~:cheers:

Actually I just got the date wrong, but it was Henry the Eighth (1491 was when he was born) ~:cool:

GoreBag

09-19-2005, 18:53

Just a suggestion for the Irish faction, at the time of the mod the Irish would not have used the Harp, as it was granted to Ireland as a National symbol by Henry VIII in 1491,(He thought the three crowns were a bit too 'pope-like') up until that time Ireland used the three crowns as our symbol. To represent the Three Kingdoms of Ireland at the time. Much alike the present day flag of Munster. Also the National 'colours' of Ireland at the time would have been Yellow and Blue, to match our lovely banner of course ~;)

That has already been covered by Ranika. The harp (although not the exact same banner) was used by Brian Boru.

Ranika

09-19-2005, 20:03

The battle-flag of the Dal Cais (and subsequently, Brian Boru) was a harp on a blue field. It was not identical to the flag that was given by Henry, but very similar. The flag of Munster is very similar to what the 'official' seal was, though even saw several variants, and it's perfectly fine (even perhaps the best option), but I was thinking more from the perspective of the eventual king of Ireland in this period; though, the initial Irish province is Munster (the home of the Dal Cais anyway).

Fianóglach

09-19-2005, 22:56

but I was thinking more from the perspective of the eventual king of Ireland in this period

Had'nt thought of it like that, did'nt mean to arse things up, just wanted to put in my two bits. The three crowns symbol, is quite exclusive to the Province of Munster, so if a symbol is needed for a larger Irish faction, perhaps Boru's harp would be logical. The three crowns represent only the 3 major lordships in Munster; the O'Briens of Thomond, the Fitzgeralds of Desmond, and the Butlers of Ormond.

Ranika

09-19-2005, 23:07

Right, but Brian's eventual position as high king was when the symbol was adopted for Ireland as well; however, his battle flag was still his harp on a blue field.

Perhaps we can have both? How about this; we use the triple crowns of Munster for the faction icon. What shows up on the map, the faction select, etc. However, we show the Dal Cais war banner in battle, with Boru's Harp on a blue field?

Fianóglach

09-19-2005, 23:49

That's a good idea, I found a more proper looking 3 crowns flag, less modernized.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/Lynch77/ie-mun.gif

I dont know how the game code works, but as I recall each faction has a banner above each unit, and a little standard bearer guy next to the unit's leader, perhaps that would be a good place for the gold harp?

Ranika

09-20-2005, 11:07

The banners would be pretty cool. Irish standard bearers from Munster and Connaght (and, assumably some other parts of Ireland) wore their standards on their back (though they'd usually be held aloft by a chief or king before battle, though more pious kings usually would just hold a cross up instead, like Brian at Clontarf).

Archbaker

09-28-2005, 10:04

Scion, will you kill me if I criticise the faction symbols again? ~D

It's just a very small thing. I keep thinking that the sword on the rebel symbol rather defeats the intention of making a historical game.

Other than that I am highly, highly impressed with the symbols. I think I'll be spending a lot of time just oogling the symbols and banners when this is finished. I already am.

ScionTheWorm

09-28-2005, 10:38

No I don't think I'm going to kill you....

So make your own faction symbols!! ~D Just kidding. I won't bother with it now, but you might be right. Sort of just made it as an option some months ago and it was voted forth.

GoreBag

09-28-2005, 18:28

You're complaining about the sword? Oh, come on, it's just an image!

Rodion Romanovich

09-28-2005, 19:07

Historically, the rebels didn't have any faction icon :) Remember that the rebels not only represent militia but also factions that can't be represented as playable factions. So sword is ok IMO.

GoreBag

09-28-2005, 19:57

It's not like the gathered peasants wouldn't want a sword on their banner.

"But guys, we only have spears and pitchforks!"

:stare:

Archbaker

09-28-2005, 20:50

You're complaining about the sword? Oh, come on, it's just an image!
I can't tell if you're being ironic or not, so I'll assume you aren't.
I don't think the icons are "just images". I think they are very well done images and part of the attention to detail that will lift this mod above others.
My praise (which is the only payment I have for what you do) will be no lower if you don't change it, but I felt I could afford to share my oppinion.
My appologies if I have stepped out of line.

Historically, the rebels didn't have any faction icon :) Remember that the rebels not only represent militia but also factions that can't be represented as playable factions. So sword is ok IMO.
I just meant the look of the sword, not that it is there. I think the blade looks weird.

ScionTheWorm

09-28-2005, 20:54

come on, they're just pulling your leg ~D It's probably not very important since when the images are going to be reduced the weapons probably won't be in. also, the rebels are not playable so this image won't display on the loading screen. (so wth did I make it.. I don't know)

Archbaker

09-28-2005, 21:06

So, um. Apparently I don't have humour. I'll learn to live with that, I'm sure. :dizzy2: ~:)

Rodion Romanovich

09-29-2005, 12:36

Rodion Romanovich

09-29-2005, 12:38

I just meant the look of the sword, not that it is there. I think the blade looks weird.

Ok, well... I don't know the answer to that... Maybe it's some sort of sickle or other farming tool. Anyway it won't appear often in-game

Csatadi

10-03-2005, 11:51

Sword? It looks like a spear-head.

ScionTheWorm

10-03-2005, 12:11

it is ~D

Archbaker

10-03-2005, 12:38

I'll just bo back into my cave.

Nacheras

10-19-2005, 21:53

Hi, everybody. Sorry for my english, because I´m spanish.

I´m very impressed with the Archbaker abstract of spanish units and information.
Two more addenda:

The name of the kingdom was "kingdom of Asturias", and it comes from the name of "astures", the pre-roman tribe that owned the lands on was born the kingdom.

The official symbol was, effectively, the cross, that was supposed to be sight by the first king, Pelagius or Pelayo, in the battle of Covadonga, which suposed the first defeat of muslims in Spain, at the year of 722.

Surely the cross is always painted in gold.

Sometimes it is represanted with the greek words "alpha" (down of the left arm of the cross) and "omega" (down of the right arm of the cross), inspirating by the evangelic phrase of Christ.

Not clear what was the colour of the banner. The modern region of Asturias, in Spain, uses the blue.

The kingdom of Asturias was born in 718, when the Astures and fleed noble goths elected Pelagius as a king (or properly as a leader). It finished around 890-900, when king Alphonsus (Alfonso) III the Great, moved the capital from Oviedo (modern Asturias) to Leon (former Legio Septima), in modern Leon region of Spain. Kingdom fo Leon inherited Astruias Reconquista, and lasted for around 1025, when it was divided between Navarre, raising Castille and Leon itself.

For the years of your mod, could be more accurate named as kingdom of Leon, but of course is your mod...

Congratulations for you all. Great work.

skeletor

11-05-2005, 23:48

Thnx Nacheras

So you think the banner should be some sort of blue, with a golden cross on it?

DO you allso know what kind of cross (shape) and do you have some other symbols in mind that wold fit Asturis?

- SKel -

Nacheras

11-06-2005, 12:12

You are welcome, skeletor.

Golden cross surely. Blue colour is a modern banner, but I really don´t know that asturians had some "national colour". That things were not fashioned that times ~D , so you can choose blue as better as other colours.

I´ll search for you for other asturian symbols, but I´m not sure they really exists.

Here I post images of the golden cross of Pelayo (cross of the victory). In spite of its name, it was made al 905 AD, but is the oldest symbol we known and surely it is quite similar to original. You can find also modern banners and flags of Asturias.

http://www.el-caminoreal.com/concejos/centrovalles/cruzvictoria.htm

http://www.azabachelise.com/liseweb/lo_ultimo/cruz_victoria/anillo_cruxvictoria.htm

http://www.almargen.com.ar/sitio/seccion/cultura/himno2/

http://www.guiastur.com/SIMBOLOS/BANDERALEY.htm

http://www.artehistoria.com/frames.htm?http://www.artehistoria.com/tienda/banco/cuadros/9035.htm

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/ala37/edadmedia.htm

http://www.zonalibre.org/blog/mitribuurbana/archives/076590.html

This one is a interesting site: you can see reproductions of the cross of victory, and of other asturican cross, older than cross of victory: the cross of angels. Also you can see models of dark ages asturian churches, abbeys and palaces (good for modellers and artists of the mod):

http://www.arteguias.com/orfebreriaprerromanica.htm

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arte_asturiano

skeletor

11-06-2005, 19:10

Perfect Nacheras, exactly what i needed, thanx a bunch.
~:cheers:

Hmmm, i wonder what kind of standard they wil carry into battle against the calophs~;)

-SKel-

Nacheras

11-06-2005, 21:41

Go forth for that banner, artist!

~:cheers:

Harmageddon

11-08-2005, 23:05

Hello! I am new to this forum and I think this Mod is very nice! I have been searching for a mod were i could play as Denmark for a long time. This mod looks really impressive! I would like to help a little with som history facts. I hope you will listen to me because it is a bit sensitive topic to me - I am danish:viking:

1) I saw some were in this topic that the danish banner is gowing to be a banner with som kind of drinking horn :jawdrop:

The danish banner at this time should be: "Danebroge" the ravenbanner. This is a red banner with two black ravens. These are called "Hugin" and "Munin" - "thourt" and "memory" and are the two holy ravens of Odin.

2) If you deside to use this historical correct banner, then i think it would be prober to give the danish the red faction color and the light brown to my Norwegien brothers.

3) Alsow remember to call the danish gods; "Odin" instead of "Wotan" and "Thor" instead of "Donar." The goddess of love and fertility should be cald Freja. Afterall wa are Danish not Germen~;)

That was all for now. I hope you will listen to me, afterall I only made my account on this guild to tell you this.

Fell free to ask questions and I will do my best to answer~:)

Antagonist

11-08-2005, 23:30

You can see the rather incredibly kick-ass faction symbols for the various factions in this mod in this preview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54613). The Danish symbol does indeed appear to be a raven.

Antagonist ~:cheers:

GoreBag

11-09-2005, 01:13

3) Alsow remember to call the danish gods; "Odin" instead of "Wotan" and "Thor" instead of "Donar." The goddess of love and fertility should be cald Freja. Afterall wa are Danish not Germen~;)

Being Danish makes you German. Either way, it's just a slightly different wording for the same figure.

Harmageddon

11-09-2005, 13:35

Being Danish makes you German. Either way, it's just a slightly different wording for the same figure.

No! I am danish and a germanien but NOT germen.

Denmark is a part of the old Germania but not, nor has it ever been, a part of Germany.

skeletor

11-09-2005, 15:00

Exept 1940 - 45 ~;)

Rodion Romanovich

11-09-2005, 16:34

Exept 1940 - 45 ~;)
I think Germany only formally annexed Poland, most other occupations were never formally annexed, so depending on definitions Denmark was or was not a part of Germany during that period... ~:)

Well, in any case we're aware that the gods are Odin, Thor and Freja - they're the same for Sweden and Norway too.

Harmageddon

11-09-2005, 20:29

Antagonist
I have already seen them but thank you anyway.~:) They are nice indeed. But it was not the Faction icon but the banner (Battle Standard) I was talking about. I really hope you guys will follow my instructions because why make a banner with a drinking horn or just a raven when you can make it historically correct? I have faith in that you will do this cause I read some ware that this mod was aiming to be realistic.

Can someone tell me if the historically correct banner is gowing to used?

skeletor and LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
I would not say that Denmark was a part of Germany because we had an independent government which was democratic (Thou they were all traitors. It was allsow the same government which, after the war was over, allowed the Danish resistance force to execute traitor. After there own standards they should have been shot themselves. Because they were the biggest traitors of them all. There is nothing new in that since we still got traitors in over government.) Danish national socialists wanted to get control of Denmark but Hitler wouldn't let them. He said that Denmark could keep its democrati if it wanted.

By the way, I am pleased to hear about the Nordic names for gods

GoreBag

11-10-2005, 02:32

No! I am danish and a germanien but NOT germen.

Denmark is a part of the old Germania but not, nor has it ever been, a part of Germany.

Germany is a political unit, not an ethnic one.

Archbaker

11-10-2005, 12:15

Harmageddon, I humbly remind you that Denmark at the time before WW2 was a country of less than five million inhabitants neighboured by Nazi Germany, neutral Sweden and Quisling's Norway. Sure Denmark could have gone to war, but we would have lasted about a week.
Besides, Danish foreign policy had been to avoid conflict with superpowers since before World War 1 (possibly ever since the end of the Napoleonic Wars) so politicians considered it their duty to protect Danish interests using diplomacy. Denmark did not suffer much during WW2, except for the Jews and Communists and the policemen and several other single groups.
This is a very cynical statement, but it would be wrong to blame only one side of the political spectre for being traitors when in reality they did what the majority wanted.
If Denmark had traitors it was the whole people.

Are you sure the Danebroge had two ravens? I've never heard of it having more than one. Keep in mind also that what we call red today was not the same colour then because they used different pigments.

skeletor

11-10-2005, 13:03

I haven't done the banner yet, but it wil sur have ravens in it, and contain the color red. Eaven tho the red color is the factioncolor of the Norwegians, we are not too concerned with that. The main point is to get a veriaty in every faction, so you will certainly see alot of red in in the danes too. The problem here is that it's nice to have some indications of what unit's is yours and not, so compared to RTR 6.0 you will be able to see a diffrence. But you will not, by far see the factioncolor dominated armys like in vanilla RTW.

And Harmageddon, don't worry, we are two norwegians working on the mod, and you will find real Scandinavian names for everything concerning this region.

-Skel-

Ilsamir Lord

11-29-2005, 06:55

Those icons are exquisite! So jewel-like and ornate! This mod is definitely one to watch!

Nacheras

11-29-2005, 11:26

This is a banner of Axarquia, one of the regions of old Al-Andalus. Not sure of its historical accuracy.

http://www.andalucia.cc/axarqiya/identidad_andalusi_archivos/image002.jpg

tutankamon

12-05-2005, 10:34

Rodion Romanovich

12-05-2005, 13:02

Lovely faction symbols they are so much better than the originals you are inqredible... but I was wondering... have you realized that the Normmanic realm actually where founded by a Norweigan jarl because the french king wanted him to stop his fellow vikings from raiding france so they shoulden't be playale from the start because that could give some funny outcomes ~;)

We have thought of that. Normandy will be unplayable and spawn on an event. We might release a small package that mods them to playable for those who want it, it's just five minutes of work to do that. But in the main release they'll be unplayable and spawn on an event.

Justiciar

12-24-2005, 12:08

You're keeping the faction name "Englisc" then? It should be the Kingdom of Wessex, in truth, shouldn't it? The kingdoms were united under Athelstan in the mid 10th century.. which is about half of the way through the campaign's time-frame, isn't it? If it starts around 800 AD, they should only really be holding southern england.

Justiciar

12-24-2005, 12:20

To add to this.. will the Englisc have Housecarls? They only really used them outside of the Danelaw and York when Canute ascended the throne. I also recall reading that the Fyrd would be the Englisc 'special' unit. Weren't they just a rabble of none-proffessional soldiers?

Rodion Romanovich

12-24-2005, 12:22

Yes, both Englisc and Wessex are names used in the period, and it's difficult to choose. Alfred the Great, which leads the faction at the start date, has in some found documents called himself "ruler of anglo-saxons", which adds a third alternative for faction name. But it's generally said that when King Egbert had defeated Mercia and the Northumbrians accepted his overlordship (in the early 9th century), the ruler of Wessex used the title "King of England", or in old language, "King of [the] Englisc". It seems fairly reasonable to use the term Kingdom of Englisc, as there's confusion on which term was used before Athelstan, but the name was certainly established from his reign and on.

Rodion Romanovich

12-24-2005, 12:26

The fyrd was before Alfred the Great a rabble of militia. During Alfred the Great, reorganizations made the fyrd into a professional force (making the burwaran take over local militia force tasks such as local garrisoning), but after his death it again degraded into a militia. The housecarles were incorporated into the armies quite late, after they learnt about it's effectiveness from fighting the Danish huskarls. There were both butescarles, who were mostly mercenaries of Danish origin, and housecarles recruited from the saxon population and trained in the Danish housecarle fighting style.

We'll use many different techniques to try and reflect these things in the mod, so that for instance housecarles won't dominate the battlefield (militia in the shape of the fyrd did in the late period), and make sure the housecarles don't appear too early (we might even lock the unit to not appear until Danish housecarles have been met in battle, in the same manner EB unlocks cataphracts for Arche Seleukeia, I believe, after they've met the cataphracts of other factions in battle).

Justiciar

12-24-2005, 13:44

Bretwalda was the title used by the Kings of Wessex from Egbert onwards, I believe.. I've never come across "King of Englisc" before, I must admit. Still, good to see you doing your research. Keep up the good work.

Csatadi

01-03-2006, 10:03

I just tested something... It wold have been cool giving the Khazars colored glass in their banner. This is just an ugly test tho..

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/4306/fargebanner6qq.png

The cineese spoke of the pople living west of Armenia that were masters at meking lass.. What do you think?
I found this old flag plan on the forum. Is is now real a flag?
Because historians assign this picture as the first portrayal of a Magyar warrior. I suppose they think on the rider. ~D

ScionTheWorm

01-03-2006, 10:33

Csatadi

01-03-2006, 11:29

according to skel it's only a test and I doubt he meant it to be used since he made another khazar flag after that. I personally find glass in banners weird.

I think we should use the turul for the magyar banner, or one of the other "national symbols" (I believe there were some other choices)
Ok. But flags and symbols can be different thats why I wrote.
I also found the original motif of the Magyar symbol. It is more lucid than yours. If you have some free time can you light the background? It was hard to observe if the bird has one or two heads. The original is clear and visible.