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Zero1

09-16-2005, 22:32

ScionTheWorm

09-17-2005, 03:21

I still don't see how Dimmu Borgir sold out, their style just developed and changed alot over the years and I see that as a good thing myself, I mean, when a band just keeps putting out stuff that sounds exactly the same it gets booring. People say the same thing about, say Iron Maiden sometimes, like back when they first brought in the synthesizers and everyone was "aweeee they sold out, they're a pussy band now!" etc. etc. and I still liked them, and hell, I still like them now.

I agree repeating themself is quite boring. Thing about maiden I think is that they try to go back to their old thing and don't succeed... I've listened to them quite a lot(!) and what stands left is the two first albums... blaze's time was quite different, but nice I thought at the moment. but it's not maiden at all, really. they don't pull it of.
I don't think Dimmu sold out either. Not their fault Nuclear Blast launched some real cinema commercials ~D quite funny though for an evil norwegian black metal band. I don't think definition fits them anymore though, more like heavy metal/trash metal. "Allhelgens død i helvetes rike" is a hell of a title though, and have a great mid-section.

I love Blind-Guardian and Iced Earth, the more experimenting the better IMHO, and PLEASE tell me you've heard of Opeth, they're like friggen Jazz-Metal at times. And yes, I have heard of Nile.

Agree, as long as the outcome is good. It's not. It's hard for me to admit, but it isn't.

Opeth rules. Still life

I don't think they've compromised their musical integrity, could you clarify what you mean by that?

Compromising musical integrity is "playing the right strings". Making money that is. From the black metal point of view their later music is not black at all. It's of course allowed to make different music, but when it's radio friendly black metal my doubts kick in. also when he shows his child in a metal magazine, and "danni invites you home to his house" I'm starting to doubt his musicianship. really. it disgusts me. but they have some good tunes though, no doubt about that. it's taste, like anything else. selling out is about choosing money above music

Oh, and I have to say I must disagree with you about Bodom, their distinctive rift for rift note for note style of guitar/KB interplay shines through uniquely in each track. Its like, if you listen to them seperately it sounds kind of repetetive but you have to listen to how they play off of eachother, the interplay they can create is downright amazing sometimes.

I respect your opinion on this and I sort of agree, but in my subjective opinion I highly disagree. For me it's quite boring and don't do me that much good.

And Bluegrass?
Yeah good old southern american folk music with banjos and harmonies. Love it at the moment, mostly in connection with drinking ~D

ScionTheWorm

09-17-2005, 03:26

Wow Scion, that's some serious stuff! Really nice!
thanks ~D

Zero1

09-17-2005, 04:06

Agree, as long as the outcome is good. It's not. It's hard for me to admit, but it isn't. ~D

Well, I loved Blind-Guardian's latest album myself and "And Then There Was Silence" is still one of my favorite songs of all time, on Iced Earth however I think their latest album wasnt very good...other then the three-part Rock Opera Gettysburg which I think kicked ass.

ScionTheWorm

09-17-2005, 04:38

and then there was silence was kick ass, I even have the single.. actually I listened more to that than to the cd as a whole. ie's gettysburg triology I didn't like. but then again I'm not an american patriot (like jon schaffer who has opened an american-history things shop :laugh:), or even the sound on their whole album. too little riffing, too much swada.

Zero1

09-17-2005, 04:44

I'm not a patriot, just a history lover, and well, for me, that trilogy wasnt really about the music as much as it was about the scene it portrayed, and thats really what it was intended to do.

As I listened I could seriously picture the innitial skirmishing in the town, the battle of Little Roundtop "my favorite battle of the civil war" and the final battle of Gettysburg. It was more like a Rock-Opera then a metal album for me.

GoreBag

09-17-2005, 19:02

Ugh. Opeth either makes me mad or puts me to sleep. Really - I borrowed Blackwater Park from a friend of mine and fell asleep on the couch listening to it..twice.

Iced Earth is just as bad. I'm not interested in infinite sadness or the American Revolution, either, so the subject matter does nothing for me.

Also, I hate power metal. Blind Guardian is one of the better acts, but it all irks me.

Hey, Martyr's playing in my city tonight! I'll get Mammaries to take some pics or something.

So you've heard of Nile, but have you listened to it?

"Heavy Metal, or no metal at all!"

Zero1

09-18-2005, 00:02

Well, some prefer music, some prefer noise ~D

ScionTheWorm

09-18-2005, 10:02

night of the stormrider is great.

martyr was playing in your city? as in technical death metal martyr? shit... you're so lucky

tutankamon

09-18-2005, 10:13

I think all the vikings, and the british wil have them.

I tried for normands, but the shield is a bit small
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/908/firstnorman0gc.png

They look great if it had been late danish vikings... because norman soldiers look like this:

https://img307.imageshack.us/img307/1797/norman1066a7yc.gif

The helmet you gave them are a typpical viking one only used for a short period of time in the early viking era..

tutankamon

09-18-2005, 10:37

Just played around with cavalry helmets.. applied a filter so you won't bother the details, would this kind of helmet fit the (early) heavy saxon cavalry?

http://img24.echo.cx/img24/6409/sc160qe.th.jpg (http://img24.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc160qe.jpg)

That's it for today

Great idea for sicilian Normans but not saxons for saxons it would be better with the traditional nasal helmet or the same as your other saxon cavalry just with some more mail and a nicer helmet with some gold ornament or something like that. infact the saxons didn't use heavy cavalry.. thats one of the reasons Wilhelm the conquere brought his cavalry ~;)

ScionTheWorm

09-18-2005, 12:20

right, we discussed the saxon army list not long ago. there will be more infantry and less cavalry (I think). this model won't be used anyway though, it was made without too much research

ScionTheWorm

09-18-2005, 14:11

https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3720/christiantriumph4ns.jpg
Irish Croisakinna and Rastriagha

ScionTheWorm

09-18-2005, 14:13

https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3600/fyrds018sd.jpg
Saxon fyrd

Spongly

09-18-2005, 14:59

Also, I hate power metal. Blind Guardian is one of the better acts, but it all irks me.

Try listening to someone like Cauldron Born or The Lord Weird Slough Feg - awesome power metal without all the floweriness usually associated with the genre. Twisted Tower Dire fit the bill as well.

Rodion Romanovich

09-18-2005, 17:31

Great idea for sicilian Normans but not saxons for saxons it would be better with the traditional nasal helmet or the same as your other saxon cavalry just with some more mail and a nicer helmet with some gold ornament or something like that. infact the saxons didn't use heavy cavalry.. thats one of the reasons Wilhelm the conquere brought his cavalry ~;)

Saxons used a cavalry that could be called either heavy or medium, depending on how you define the words. The heaviest saxon cavalry wore chainmail and there was also cavalry with throwing spears etc. The cavalry was rare, but the saxons definitely had the knowledge needed for training of heavy cavalry. The main problem for them was the cost and the difficulties of creating a strong cavalry in the English fairly unfertile landscape, just like was the case for the later Norman English. Only during a shorter period between 1066 and the 13th century was the English army cavalry based. Now, if the saxons would have conquered more land, they'd probably have been able to train more cavalry of this type if desired. That is reflected in our tech tree and recruitment system.

tutankamon

09-18-2005, 18:24

Saxons used a cavalry that could be called either heavy or medium, depending on how you define the words. The heaviest saxon cavalry wore chainmail and there was also cavalry with throwing spears etc. The cavalry was rare, but the saxons definitely had the knowledge needed for training of heavy cavalry. The main problem for them was the cost and the difficulties of creating a strong cavalry in the English fairly unfertile landscape, just like was the case for the later Norman English. Only during a shorter period between 1066 and the 13th century was the English army cavalry based. Now, if the saxons would have conquered more land, they'd probably have been able to train more cavalry of this type if desired. That is reflected in our tech tree and recruitment system.

Well that explaines a lot ~D when will it be finnished? and what of the buildings? you can't use the original buildings

Geoffrey S

09-18-2005, 18:43

Just caught the metal discussion here. Opeth is truly excellent, and a great live band to boot. Nile is also good; they were brutal live.
Anyone into Strapping Young Lad; I really like City, not so keen on more recent albums.

skeletor

09-18-2005, 18:48

We haven't got any releasedate yet, and it's hard to estimate.

We will have to redo alot of the buildings. With slight modifications, some of the eastern buildings can be used for the muslim factions. Allso some of the barbarian buildings isn't to far off from the viking buildings. But when it comes to the central european, and steppe factions, i guess we have to redo allmost all of them.

-Skle-

GoreBag

09-18-2005, 19:40

Well, some prefer music, some prefer noise ~D

Ow, twist the knife. ~:rolleyes:

"..wimps and posers...leave the hall!"

martyr was playing in your city? as in technical death metal martyr? shit... you're so lucky

Well, they're Canadian, and based not far from here. I ended not going...baked all night instead. Molasses is metal.

Try listening to someone like Cauldron Born or The Lord Weird Slough Feg - awesome power metal without all the floweriness usually associated with the genre. Twisted Tower Dire fit the bill as well.

Eh...I'm not in any rush to try more power metal, but I'll keep your suggestion in mind.

Just caught the metal discussion here. Opeth is truly excellent, and a great live band to boot. Nile is also good; they were brutal live.
Anyone into Strapping Young Lad; I really like City, not so keen on more recent albums.

City was great, I agree. Still hate Opeth, though.

ScionTheWorm

09-18-2005, 19:49

I saw swedish Bloodbath this summer, with Opeth vocalist. Pretty extreme death metal, awesome riffing.

Meneldil

09-18-2005, 19:57

Well guys, I don't want to disappoint you, but Metal = :devil:

GoreBag

09-19-2005, 00:49

I saw swedish Bloodbath this summer, with Opeth vocalist. Pretty extreme death metal, awesome riffing.

I was wondering if someone would bring Bloodbath up. I don't listen to the band, but I've heard that the only good release has been the latest one - where Peter Tägtgren does vocals. ~D

Well guys, I don't want to disappoint you, but Metal = :devil:

That's the idea..

Geoffrey S

09-19-2005, 17:30

I just couldn't resist... not that this is technical death metal, more like heavy metal with distorted vocals, but anyway it's something I made a couple of years ago. haven't got so much opinions on them so... well I know I don't sing that well, but I don't know anybody else either that's avaliable. the drums are programmed, but by me so it's almost like I'm playing them myself, right?
Hey, pretty neat. You do the bass and guitar, right? That's some good guitar playing going on there. It's easily on par with a number the better metal bands around Utrecht. Singing reminded me of Rakoth, particularly towards the end of Melstrom. What'd you use for recording?

Csatadi

09-20-2005, 12:07

to the Magyar skin:

http://www.lovasijasz.sk/keptar.htm
http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/036.html
http://www.szentes.hu/varos/noisir.htm
http://www.museum.hu/bekescsaba/munkacsy/images/0186_p0315_maxi.jpg
http://www.oskultura.hu/hun/kezmuvestermekjurt.htm
http://www.zoldujsag.hu/1_11/01.htm
http://www.mythinglinks.org/Horsemen~R80~R80~9thcMagyarSettlementPeriod~byGyulaLaszlo~huncost4.jpg

http://www.mythinglinks.org/
in the theory on this page you can find other ones

http://www.tankabarany.hu/egyeb/dt_honf_csizma.html
http://www.oskultura.hu/hun/rendel/kepek/image003.jpg
http://www.prodinfo.hu/egyedi/sasijaszok.htm

plus one bonus:
Avars:
http://phoenix.szarvas.hu/muzeum/honfogl.htm

BTW do you know how to pronounce the Magyar word?
Explanation: ~MAH-djahr.

ScionTheWorm

09-20-2005, 12:32

thanks, that's very helpful!

GoreBag

09-20-2005, 19:38

BTW do you know how to pronounce the Magyar word?
Explanation: ~MAH-djahr.

Is that "j" as in English ("jester") or, say, German ("jul")?

tutankamon

09-21-2005, 16:57

ScionTheWorm

09-21-2005, 17:15

Thank you

We can't do the same extent of research as EB as we don't have the resources. We can read until we see the reaper, or we can start skinning...
saxons will have several great fyrd units

About the chainmail: remember we can't use more than one skin on a unit, so everybody must be alike. So if it was common to use chainmail we should use that, or vice versa.

Just wondering if anybody knows any common misunderstandings about the franks. I've made 16 frank units (devided on four factions so it's basically four units), and I'm mostly inspired by osprey art.

ScionTheWorm

09-21-2005, 17:19

damn my first double post...

Csatadi

09-21-2005, 17:21

Is that "j" as in English ("jester") or, say, German ("jul")?

Sorry! The 'j' is like 'y' in 'year', but try to say 'd' and 'j' at the same time.
Ah, I find something yet. This 'dj' is the same as you say the 'd' in 'duke'.

GoreBag

09-21-2005, 17:29

Got it. Thanks for the help.

Rodion Romanovich

09-21-2005, 20:11

Hey I am a 21 y.o. arkeology-buff from Moesgård in northern denmark.
As looked trough your great project and i must say great work i love your ideas but have you thought the hole thing through? For instance mailarmour, witch you have given almost all your units, was very expensive, it costed more than a horse... so if you have saxon spearmen as a heavy unit it would be OK but not as a basic unit.. I have also looked at your vikings. The helmet you use was only used for a very short period of time and the mail hoods you have given them er historically incorect.. instead they had a mail curtain to protect the neck and if you want to go with the viking helm with spectical eyes this would be the right way to do it:

https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8755/vhelm081hf.th.jpg
https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3619/vhelm120xp.th.jpg
https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/517/p32vikinghelmet9ze.th.gif

and finally the most common weapon used by the wikings was not the axe but the spear or the sword...

but keep up the good work ~:cheers:

About the tech tree comments we're mostly following those things: spears are most common, swords were however expensive and thus restricted to better units. I don't think we're using too much chainmail. There are balancing parts of the mod that can't be seen from looking at the tech trees only, for example militia will constitute most units on the battlefield, which means there won't be over-use of chainmial and so on. Hope that's good enough!

As Scion said, we can't put as much research into the project as for example EB, but we're doing as best we can. Ironically, about the viking main weapon of the time we've heard at least 5 different opinions/interpretations already. We're going for a system where levies and poorer troops use spears and axes, and where richer troops use spears and swords, mostly. The danish viking huskarls were known for axes, and therefore use axes rather than swords, being an exception from the rule that the professionals would use swords. Anyway, this whole thing seems very disputed but I think the current tech trees are representing the viking weaponry well.

Archbaker

09-21-2005, 21:28

NORTHERN Denmark? I live near Moesgård and I have trouble seeing myself as a Northern Jut.

Anyway, the people at Moesgård know a lot, so I'd listen to this guy.

It does look like only certain special units have been given axes. But both karls, gestr (guests?) and landsmenn have axes and I think those would be fairly common on the battlefield in late games.

It's no big deal for me, God knows I'd believe anything you told me, but you could try to give one or two of those three units a sword or spear. Or maybe not. You have reasons and concerns I don't know about so this is just friendly input.

tutankamon

09-21-2005, 21:31

About the tech tree comments we're mostly following those things: spears are most common, swords were however expensive and thus restricted to better units. I don't think we're using too much chainmail. There are balancing parts of the mod that can't be seen from looking at the tech trees only, for example militia will constitute most units on the battlefield, which means there won't be over-use of chainmial and so on. Hope that's good enough!

As Scion said, we can't put as much research into the project as for example EB, but we're doing as best we can. Ironically, about the viking main weapon of the time we've heard at least 5 different opinions/interpretations already. We're going for a system where levies and poorer troops use spears and axes, and where richer troops use spears and swords, mostly. The danish viking huskarls were known for axes, and therefore use axes rather than swords, being an exception from the rule that the professionals would use swords. Anyway, this whole thing seems very disputed but I think the current tech trees are representing the viking weaponry well.

Sorry that I jumped to conclusions.... you are doing a great job with your mod keep it up and you are right most of the levies probably used some sort of axes.. perhaps woodcutting axes... If i can help you with the design of your buildings i would be grateful :bow: ... have you guess thought of the Slavs? since they are very important for the wikings and there history...

Rodion Romanovich

09-22-2005, 12:29

Sorry that I jumped to conclusions.... you are doing a great job with your mod keep it up and you are right most of the levies probably used some sort of axes.. perhaps woodcutting axes... If i can help you with the design of your buildings i would be grateful :bow: ... have you guess thought of the Slavs? since they are very important for the wikings and there history...

Any help is appreciated! ~:cheers:

- What exactly do you mean with design of buildings? Can you model and skin them, or would it mostly be suggestions? I think we're at the moment going for buildings with quite generic names such as weaponsmith, weaponsmith's workshop, weaponsmith's guild and master weaponsmith, a la M:TW, and more perhaps locally correct names of buildings have been neglected; it's mostly a user-friendliness thing. Units and so on are however intended to have accurate names and appearance as much as it is possible.

- Re the slavs, we've actually not found nearly as much material as we would have liked to about them, but if you have any info you think we should know we'd appreciate it is you could share it with us. Perhaps you got some interesting links?

The slavs haven't been planned yet, but at least several militia slavic units will certainly be in the mod.

tutankamon

09-22-2005, 12:46

Any help is appreciated! ~:cheers:

- What exactly do you mean with design of buildings? Can you model and skin them, or would it mostly be suggestions? I think we're at the moment going for buildings with quite generic names such as weaponsmith, weaponsmith's workshop, weaponsmith's guild and master weaponsmith, a la M:TW, and more perhaps locally correct names of buildings have been neglected; it's mostly a user-friendliness thing. Units and so on are however intended to have accurate names and appearance as much as it is possible.

- Re the slavs, we've actually not found nearly as much material as we would have liked to about them, but if you have any info you think we should know we'd appreciate it is you could share it with us. Perhaps you got some interesting links?

The slavs haven't been planned yet, but at least several militia slavic units will certainly be in the mod.

By "design" I meant coming with some info on with types of craftmens there and some pictures of actual reconstructions of there workshops and things like that you could use... ~D

tutankamon

09-22-2005, 12:57

A typpical Saxon town

https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1611/village8mw.gif

These a sellections of craftmen that you might find in a Saxon village, I have also given there original names although I know that you don't use them ~;)

* banwyrhta (Bone and Antler worker)
* Mæstlingsmið (Bronze smith)
* Mynetere (Mint)
* Glæswyrhta (Glassworker)
* Treowyrhta (Carpenter)
* Isensmið (Blacksmith)
* Leðerwyrhta (Leatherworker)
* Webbestre (Weaver)
* Stanwyrhta (Stonemason)
* Bæcestre (Baker)
* Crocwyrhta (Potter)
* Fiscere (Fisherman)

Later some recontruction-pictures of the actual buildings will com.. if it's something you could use?

tutankamon

09-22-2005, 13:18

The military organisation of the Anglo-Saxons is a notoriously difficult and obscure subject. It is impossible to give firm dates or precise details of developments, mainly because the Saxons did not need to define their military organisation for themselves; it was part of the life of every able bodied man. In the beginning there were simply war bands, small bodies of semi-professional or solely professional warriors led by their chosen chiefs. Loyalty to a chief was the greatest virtue, and warriors sought out a leader who would further their military career. If a chief or king died in battle his men would according to lore die avenging him, although a few might survive after being struck down and left for dead. It was considered dishonourable to leave the battlefield on which your lord had been slain, and it was not unknown for those few who did survive to be executed by their lord's successor for their disloyalty and lack of zeal.

From the beginning of the 9th century the English kingdoms were under attack by other bands of professional warriors - the Vikings. We know from accounts of battles before Alfred's reign (879 - 899) that some form of levy existed to deal with these raids, but we have no details of it's particular organisation. We do know that the king had an 'elite' corps of ðegns or thegns, who made up the king's personal 'Hearth Troop' or hirð. These ðegns had to become 'professional' warriors, not because they were a trained elite, but because their position depended on it. It is obvious that the king and his hearth troop could not be everywhere at once, so the onus for local defence must have fallen on the eorls. It was their job to summon the fyrd in emergencies, and this they, or their ðegns could have done reasonably quickly in the areas affected by the raids.

The personal followers of the leaders, the thegns and numbers of hired mercenaries (often other Scandinavians) formed the spearhead of any force. From the early 9th century this was supported by what was later called the fyrd (literally meaning 'journey', and it came to have the special meaning of 'armed expedition or force'). The fyrd was raised by selective recruitment, rather than a general levy, usually drawing one man for every five hides of land. Most of the fyrd would therefore have been thegns, although there are records of 'free men' serving in the fyrd at Hastings. However, the actual obligation was upon each ðegn to provide a man, usually himself, for fyrd service. Since a ðegn would usually have five hides we have the figure of one man from five hides, but the obligation was upon the man, not the land. Since the obligation was on the man, and not the land, some ðegns could own less than the usual five hides (perhaps because a father had split his estate between several sons) . Those poor ðegns who had only a hide or two were still obliged to provide a fyrdman - fyrd service is almost never left out of charters for land-grants.

By the tenth century there are charters which provide alternative obligations demonstrating an emerging flexibility to suit the changing aspects of military service and the threat posed. One such charter requires five men from thirty hides, in another one, one man for thirty hides. Because of these the fyrd could contain members of the upper peasantry, the Ceorls. In these cases the men involved combined to dispatch one of their number (usually the same man) whenever the fyrd was summoned. Several contemporary texts bear this out:
'In Covenham Alsi and Chetel and Turuer had 3.5 carucates of land to the geld .... Chetel and Turuer were brothers and after their father's death they divided the land, in such a wise (ways) however that when Chetel was doing the king's service he should have his brother Turuer's aid.'

https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2822/wareham97073yf.jpg
a saxon thegn on horseback

The representative would ensure that he was well equipped, and ambition and experience would soon create worthy warriors. Indeed the usual armament for a fyrdsman laid out in contemporary documents was a spear, shield, helm, byrnie and a palfrey (riding horse). Often a sword was included in the list. Although a horse is mentioned it was only to allow the fyrd to be specifically mobile. In battle the warriors would dismount and fight on foot.

If the men summoned for the fyrd did not turn up there were severe penalties:

'When the king goes against an enemy, should anyone summoned by his edict remain, if he is a man so free that he has his soke and sake, and can go with his land to whomever he pleases [i.e. king's ðegns and eoldermen], he is in the king's mercy for all of his land. But if the free man of some other lord has stayed away from the host and his lord has led another in his place, he will pay 40s. to his lord who received the summons. But if nobody at all has gone in his place, he himself shall pay his lord 40s., but his lord shall pay the entire amount to the king.'

Another document gives us an idea of the fyrdsman's 'pay' as well as the penalty for failure to serve:

'If the king sent an army anywhere, only one soldier went from five hides, and for his provision or pay, four shillings were given him from each hide for his two months of service. The money, however, was not sent to the king but given to the soldiers. If anyone summoned to serve in an expedition failed to do so, he forfeited all his lands to the king. If anyone for the sake of remaining behind promised to send another in his place, and nevertheless, he who should have been sent remained behind, his lord was freed of obligation by the payment of 50 shillings.'

The towns were also assessed in hides, and the inhabitants were required to send representatives. In some instances the towns could commute their service by paying the crown a sum necessary to hire a replacement. Anglo-Saxon England was still developing a cash economy and most workers were paid in kind, the markets where wages could be spent did not properly exist. For example, Ely Abbey acquitted its lands of 'fyrdinge' through the payment of 10,000 eels a year to the king. Other scattered references in The Doomsday Book to lands that 'aided the king's expeditions' imply that pre-Conquest lesser landowners made similar arrangements with the crown.

Csatadi

09-22-2005, 13:27

Another link to Magyars: HUNGARIAN PREHISTORY FROM THE BEGINNINGS TO KING ST. STEPHEN (1038)

there are some picture, too, and this book is written in English
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/

tutankamon

09-22-2005, 22:13

Is info like this something you can use?

Lovasìjász

09-23-2005, 03:31

if you guys need more picture for the magyars:

this is a paitning, looks nice, possibly a chieftain (guessing : Arpad)

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/1a48e409.jpg

light horse archer(possibly):
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/fdab3f09.jpg

possibly swordsman and an archer:

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/szkitha_2alak.jpg

archer (just for the color/uniform)
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/417caa9c.jpg

Another detail, I read this in a hungarian mythology book:

Horse units for the typical nomadic people (huns, magyars, bulgarians,pechenegs etc) had 2 swords always.
One on both - left and right side, and they were light sabres.
http://w3.enternet.hu/arkadia/szkita/szablyaGyulai.jpg

They used either of them, whichever was more accessible in that particular moment in the battle, and this age might those times, when magyars started using a very similar weapon to the tomahawk called "fokos". (this weapon was used all the way to present, as some people on the countryside of hungary still have one, if nothing more use as a "walking stick) It's a small headed, long handle "battle-axe" , used as a throwing weapon, or to quickly make a pass by the enemy cavalry and drag them off the horse, or simply smash the infantry's head with a quick blow.

http://w3.enternet.hu/arkadia/szkita/fokosRakoczi.jpg

Csatadi

09-23-2005, 09:10

Notes to skinners:
The fokos you see on Horsearche's posting is what I called spontoon in the tech tree.
The lower little pictures are very strange compared to the other sources. That's why I ignored the link they are from.
Árpád: the richest warriors especially the Kopjások and the Chosen Magyar Horse Archers should wear helmets the rest shouldn't.
The clothes of the rich people was colorful.

"Horse units for the typical nomadic people (huns, magyars, bulgarians,pechenegs etc) had 2 swords always."

I don't belive this is correct in our era. Maybe later. That sabres were very expensive. In the findigs never were 2 sabres.

Good work guys!

Rodion Romanovich

09-23-2005, 12:21

Good info all!

At the moment we're desperately trying to find more in-depth info on Rus, Bulgars, Asturians (some later units could be based on Leon and Castile, perhaps also, but preferably not, on Navarre and Aragonia), and the Abbassid and Al Andalus armies. Hopefully all tech trees can be finalized this week.

ScionTheWorm

09-23-2005, 14:56

Here's a Magyar Light Horse archer for ya...
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8569/magyar060lp.jpg

tutankamon

09-23-2005, 18:11

Rodion Romanovich

09-23-2005, 18:38

Info about Bulgar, Rus, Asturian, Abbassid and Al Andalus armies during this period, to use as starting point for the creation of the tech trees for those factions.

Lovasìjász

09-23-2005, 23:22

Excellent work sciontheworm! That model looks awesome!

I don't belive this is correct in our era. Maybe later. That sabres were very expensive. In the findigs never were 2 sabres.

I'm getting this from an Attila mythology book (regi magyar mondak), even though Attila was a hun and 400 years earlier than magyars, so if it isn't so, then i was wrong.

also:

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/screenshots%20RTW/31b51211.jpg

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/screenshots%20RTW/c7ebe766.jpg

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/horsearcher/screenshots%20RTW/236c258e.jpg

Zero1

09-23-2005, 23:27

Excellent model Scion

ScionTheWorm

09-23-2005, 23:53

thanks

I thought since magyars are so popular I should get them right...

Pre Christian Vitézek (Horse Archers), WIP
https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9616/magyar075wr.jpg

armour on this fella?

Archbaker

09-24-2005, 01:01

I just spent a couple hours compiling information from various Spanish sites. Then I found all the same on Wikipedia in English ~:eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
Look at Section three and five. I cannot find similar informaton to chapter five in any other language, including Spanish, so I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it is our best source for now. It is also not particular to Asturian soldiers, but it IS true of Castilla-León and we know that the ruling class of Asturies were Visigoths.

A small summary of the military information:

Peones: Litt. “Peasants”. Levies of either archers or spear/short sword

Royal Knights: Nobles with Visigoth ancestors. Wear gothic armour with “braceplate” (breastplate?) and use lance, javelins, sword and kite-shaped shield. Also used double-axe.

Caballeros Hidalgos: Lesser nobles (Don Quijote was one). Leather armour, javelins, spears, sword and Moorish-style shields.

Caballeros Villanos: Litt. “villains” or “serfs” Non-noble knights. Militia version of the hidalgo.

Generally:
Helmets are Norman-style.
Infantry use short single-bladed swords and cavalry use long double-bladed ones.
Shields are round or kidney-shaped except for royal knights.
Armours are mostly leather reinforced with scales, but maille exists (royal knights and possibly hidalgos should wear it), no horse barding.
The double-headed axe is a 30 cm melee weapon balanced for throwing. I imagine it mostly a footman’s weapon and used like Norse axes, although it has an extra head. Since there will be throwing axes in BI a unit could throw a few before closing in.

The late-period triggered super-cavalry could be these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago

Thoughts:
As far as I can see, Asturia should have weaker, but more flexible heavy cavalry than the Franks. I think that is enough to give the faction something to hang its hat on on the military side of things. All or most infantry troops should be either levies or foot knights, and I think I would give infantry levies a bonus in mountains if possible.

I hope this is useful.
I leave you with these pictures of Asturian crosses.
"Cruz de la Victoria"

Archbaker

09-24-2005, 01:06

Pictures of crosses
http://images.google.com/images?q=%22Cruz+de+la+Victoria%22&svnum=10&hl=da&lr=&safe=off&lr=&start=20&sa=N

The site I originally went to. Notice the photos of wax dolls.
http://www.almargen.com.ar/sitio/seccion/historia/covado/

I haven't got a lot of ideas for tech tree, but I see no reason for it to be essentially different from that of the Franks. I still think a morale building would be appropriate considering at least the popular version of their early history.

Rodion Romanovich

09-24-2005, 08:41

@Scion: Nice model and skin! I somehow missed it until now. About the armor on the second fella I don't remember, but it should be listed in the tech tree.

@Archbaker: Yeah, that's great info, now I'll try to make a revised tech tree.

ScionTheWorm

09-24-2005, 09:39

okay no armour. I just saw on that picture above of the horsearcher that doesn't look that rich but still has armour. but he will also look better without.

are there any experts here on how the different magyar units should look?

Archbaker

09-24-2005, 14:47

This is a bit about Andalus buildings. Mostly from this site.
http://www.legadoandalusi.es/alandalu_body_esp.htm#

Language lesson:
Madrasah: School
Al-funduqa: Grain market and warehouse
Zoco: Market. Spanish spelling, I cannot find ethymology.
As-saqiya: Irrigation
Al-qantara: well, aqueduct

Buildings:
Orchards, park-like gardens, gardens of herbal medicine and vegetable gardens, introduced many new species of plants to Europe. Including oranges, artichokes, asparagus, melons and a long list of others.
Public baths and most likely best sewage system in Europe. Hospitals.

For units, I have stooped to wargamer sources. I actually trust this one, though.
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/0711/armies.htm
About army composition.

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/0711/painting_guide.htm
About dress style.

Troop ideas distilled from that site:
Hashid javelinmen, slingers, archers, spearmen, cavalry etc.: Levies. Single-coloured shield in bright colours. Topcoat, tunic and trousers in pastel scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white. White turban.

Jund slingers, archers, spearmen, cavalry etc.: Hereditary regulars. I think they were paid as the Andalusian army is referred to as professional. As Hashid, but simple motif shields. Late regulars may use the adarga shield.

Medium-late Jund: These soldiers wear scarlet tunics and fight as copies of European troops. This includes heavy cavalry units and crossbowmen.

Al-murabitun: Black top coats, black cloaks, black veils. This sounds rather expensive, so I think this should only be applied to the al-murabitun swordsmen if the fanatics are to be cheap units.

Abid spearmen: Senegalese slaves. Carry long leather shields and bamboo spears. White tunics with coloured waist band. No turban.

Abid archers: Senegalese slaves with bows. As above.

Abid Guard: A possible Senegalese elite cavalry. Dress like Murabitim and are richly attired, cloaks with Coptic patterns. I think they are just an al-Andalus version of Abbasid Ghulams.

Berber militia cavalry and horse/camel archers: Loincloth and possibly turban.

Berber professionals: Wear the chilaba or djellabah: (http://www.webcciv.org/actividades/exposicion/indumentaria/images/ninoChilaba.jpg)

Thoughts: As a rule, al-Andalus should be highly sophisticated and have good agriculture. Their army is primarily infantry, but they have good light cavalry including camels and decent heavy cavalry. What should be the main distinction between Al-Andalus and the Abbassid Caliphate?

Archbaker

09-24-2005, 19:25

I forgot to ask if there was something in particular you wanted to know about Al-Andalus and the Abbasid caliphate. The tech trees looked rather well-rounded except that they were too similar. I cannot match the information you have already found, but I could look for specifics.

tutankamon

09-24-2005, 21:29

The first problem in dealing with the subject of Huscarls is to decide whether you are looking at the traditional meaning of the word in Old Norse, or whether you are talking about the English military term.

In Old Norse the term Huscarl is just a word meaning a household servant - house-karl - and could be applied to anyone who served a lord in his household. In Old English it has a meaning nearer to the later medieval idea of 'Household Troops', the highly trained soldier who served a particular lord and his family or household. Certainly by the later eleventh century, the Norse usage of the word was similar to that of the English, although earlier on it had had a more general meaning. For the purposes of this article we will be looking at the English Huscarls.

There is little doubt that Huscarls were introduced into England during the reign of Cnut (although there is some evidence for an elite mercenary force during Aethelred's reign). An institution similar to the Huscarls had existed in Scandinavia for some time, and it is possible that Cnut was trying to 'standardise' that aspect of all his empire. It is also possible that tales of the Varangian Guard in Byzantium inspired the formation of the Huscarls as the King's bodyguard. According to Sveno, Cnut re-organised his army in 1018 and proclaimed that only those 'who bore a two-edged sword with gold inlaid hilt' would be admitted into his chosen guard. It is said that wealthy warriors made such haste to get swords of the right quality that the sound of the sword-smiths' hammers was heard throughout the land. It may be that Cnut was trying to get some Englishmen into his elite guard to aid the unification between Englishmen and Danes. Whatever the reason, it can be seen that this would have given Cnut the chance to get some of the best warriors in the land into his personal guard. How was this guard organised?

Many of the writers earlier this century thought that the Huscarls were organised in a similar way to the Jomsvikings. However, more recent research suggests that the Jomsvikings may never have existed as the disciplined guild of warriors portrayed in the sagas. What is certain, however, is that Huscarls were paid troops with their own rules of justice and discipline, answerable directly to the King (or later some of the more powerful Eorls who had their own Huscarls). Most of the Huscarls lived at the King's court and served him directly. By the time of Edward the Confessor some Huscarls had been given estates by the king, varying in size from half a hide to fifteen hides, with an average being 4 hides, although these were probably the exception rather than the rule.

Traditionally, the Huscarls 'contract' to the King was renewed on New Year's Day, and any Huscarl was free to leave the king's service. It is also clear that problems of internal discipline were dealt with by a meeting of the Huscarls. The worst sentence was to be declared 'niðing' (a Norse word meaning coward or craven) and cast out of the Huscarls. It is possible that Eorl Swein, Harold's brother, had been a Huscarl since when he abducted the abbess of Leominster and killed his cousin Beorn, he was not tried by a Witan and outlawed, the king and the army declared Swein 'niðing', suggesting military, not civil, justice. The exact details of the 'guild laws' for the Huscarls are now not as certain as they were once thought to be, since the principle sources for these laws have been shown to be dubious. However, the existing evidence is strong enough to be sure that the Huscarls did have their own 'guild-laws' by which they lived, based on loyalty to the king and an oath of true loyalty to the other Huscarls, just as the thegns of Cambridge did in the early eleventh century and the 'peace guild' of London did during Aethelstan's reign.

The royal Huscarls are thought to have numbered about 3000, a vast number of men to pay and, as a consequence, a special tax of one mark of silver from ten hides was levied to pay the Huscarls. In addition to their pay in coin (thought to have been paid once per month), they were housed and fed at the king's expense. It is not certain whether the king also paid for their arms and armour, although it is likely they were expected to supply these themselves (arms and armour may have been given as gifts in return for good service too). Obviously, they would equip themselves with the best arms and armour they could, not only because their lives depended on it (literally), but also because the king could dismiss them, removing their livelihood too, if their war gear was not 'up to scratch'. If they were to constitute the core of the army, their war-gear had to be the best available. In addition to his sword, a huscarl would also have been expected to have a horse to carry him to the battle (although he would dismount and fight on foot), a mail-shirt, helmet, shield, spear, and, of course, the 'massive and bloodthirsty two handed axe'.

That Huscarls were valued servants of the king is bourne out by an event in 1041. Two of Harthacnut's huscarls were killed by the citizens of Worcester whilst collecting a particularly unpopular tax. Harthacnut decided to ravage the entire shire by dispatching the forces of five eorls and 'almost all his huscarls' to teach his subjects a lesson in obedience. This also gives us a hint to the fact that a huscarl's duty to the king was not limited to fighting. Like the thegns, the huscarls served the king in peace as well as war. They appear as tax collectors, witnesses to royal charters, recipients of land grants and donors of land. Often the same man is found described in charters as cynges huskarl and minister regis. If the huscarl's duty was purely military he would have been described as milites regis not minister regis. Huscarls could best be described as ministers and attendants upon the king (or eorl) who specialised in, but were not limited to, war. Their obligation to serve in arms arose from the lordship bond rather than the cash inducement. In this way they probably differed from their contemporaries, the lithsmen and butecarles who were purely mercenary troops and seem to have sided with the highest bidder.

What happened to the Huscarls? The huscarls probably formed the spear head of any army right up until the Conquest. After the Conquest the huscarls seem to have completely disappeared. Why was this? Certainly the vast majority died on Senlac ridge, fighting around the king, but not all. Most of those that did survive, along with many of King Harold's thegns, and some of the eorl's huscarls seem to have crossed to the continent as mercenary troops. Many of these made it as far as Byzantium and became members of the Varangian Guard, so much so that, by the twelfth century, the Varangian Guard was sometimes referred to as 'the English Guard'.

Archbaker

09-25-2005, 00:15

Another foray into the world of wargames:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.russianvityaz.ru/gallery/mid_east/pb506.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.russianvityaz.ru/gallery/mid_east/pb506.htm&h=600&w=400&sz=53&tbnid=lRhejXG_vGoJ:&tbnh=133&tbnw=88&hl=da&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darab%2Bwarrior%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dda%26lr%3Dlang_es%26safe%3Doff
I believe this is what a westernised al-Andalus infantryman would look like. Or a wargamers idea thereof. He is 12th century, though.

Arabic heavy cavalry
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_soldiers/march29/cs15.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_soldiers/last_week_release.htm&h=700&w=419&sz=56&tbnid=vVVHRAkPGjwJ:&tbnh=138&tbnw=82&hl=da&start=35&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darab%2Bwarrior%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dda%26lr%3Dlang_es%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

http://www.russianvityaz.ru/gallery/mid_east/pb504.htm
This cavalryman does not confirm to my (one) source about Andalusian colours, possibly Abbasid?

Csatadi

09-25-2005, 18:47

ScionTheWorm:

I am happy to see the first Magyar pic. ~:)

The first thing I miss his horse. :charge: See the links I sended there are pictures about the eastern type horses, too.
I suggest to you getting the photo on Horsearcher’s message over the sabre. The guy is bearded but historically it is better if they wear only a moustache. Not every archer should wear an earring (or rings) I suggest it for the richest Chosen M H Archers or Kopjások.
The scabbard of the sabre and the case of the bow is missing. His head gear is rather a Cumanian type. They should wear also a little ’bag’ on their right side. And the toe-cap of his boots should leaning up a little. Braids are very recommended even near his ears. Sorry, I am not able to explain accurately see the pictures.
I suggest brown hair to this guy (his hair will seen the best). The others can be black or brown haired. Every pieces of the figure has too dark colors. The details are not visible well.
His sabre is line. Is it possible to draw a curved blade? I suggest sabres to other warriors.
Sorry I cannot send attachments to the list.

Unit types from my tech tree:
Magyar Horse Archers {Magyar lovasíjászok} [no armor, reflex bow, spontoon {fokos- see Horsearcher’s posting},] - supposing not every warrior had a sabre. The fokos has long handle ~1 meter.
Lancemen {Kopjások} [medium cavalry, sabre, reflex bow, lance with little flag (banderole?), round shield, scale mail like on the pictures, earring, helmet
Helmets: peaked ones maybe with fur around the base. I think the helmet on the painting is not from this era.
Chosen Magyar Horse Archers {Válogatott magyar lovasíjászok} [sabre and reflex bow, leather armour with bigger steel ornaments, colorful clothing helmet
Bodyguards {Testőrség}: medium cavalry, sabre, reflex bow, scale mail like on the pictures, helmet. Colorful clothing.
The leaders should have a horn. Not rhino-men but the blower type people. ~;)
Helmets: they can be like the headgear of the warriors on the postings
Knights: German knights, 11th century.

slav axemen: sorry I don’t know the slav design. Stole from the Rus armies.
slav spearmen: spear, shield, no armour
Peasants: do you use them at all?

Yes, the Magyars are more popular unlike the Khazars. The reason is there are some millions from our people but how many Khazars can you find these days?

tutankamon

09-25-2005, 22:05

Just a thougt... how will the appearence of the viking churches be in the mod?

skeletor

09-25-2005, 23:37

Not sure really, but atleast in norway, the stav-churches were first built for worshiping norse gods. But by the time Norway becam christian, the stav-churches were used for worshiping god. I guess the same thing goes for sweden, eaven tho the stav-churches is mainly a Norwegian fenomen.

The viking factions will maynly be Norse factions. So using their peagan "hovs" wold be best i guess. Im not really sure about the danes tho. They were probably more influenced by the franks, and the closters were more built out there. But i guess you can fill us in with that part tutankamon ~:)

Heres a pic of a stav church, and i'm really looking forwar to see it ingame. (this was built in 1180ad)
http://home.online.no/~sian-s/photogallery/Hemsedal%20mai%202002/Tur%20til%20Hemsedal%20mai%202002%20Borgund%20stavkirke.jpg

-Skel-

Archbaker

09-26-2005, 00:06

Small faction description for Asturia.

The Kingdom of Asturia
Also known as Asturias, Asturies.

The history of the Kingdom of Asturia is the history of the re-conquest of Iberia.
After the fall of the West Roman Empire, the Iberian Peninsula came under the rule of Visigoth kings. Unified in Christianity, the Romano-Celtic Iberians and Germanic Goths merged into a unified culture with the Visigoths as the political elite.
The Arab invasion soon changed this; however, as almost the entire peninsula became part of the al-Andalus Emirate.
The unimportant Northern districts were the last to be occupied, and when they were, the Andalusians lacked the manpower to station sizeable garrisons there.
In the district of Asturia, one such garrison was expelled by the nobleman Don Pelayo who proclaimed himself king and managed to keep the district free of further attacks while the Emir set his eyes on the richer Frankish provinces.
After the al-Andalus army suffered a great defeat in France, the Emirate started to consolidate by rebuilding its armies and retake the rebellious Asturian province.
Pelayo withdrew into the mountains and let the Arabs meet him at a place known as Covadonga, the Deep Cave–said to be the only part of modern Spain that was never under Muslim rule.
Pelayo and his knights held the cave while the rest of his men stationed themselves further up the mountainsides and bombarded their attackers.
Legend has it that the warriors in the cave were visited by the Virgin Mary and given the courage to fight on, Pelayo charged out of the cave and chose the Arabs away.
The defeated Andalusian army tried to retreat to Leon, but was attacked in the rear by Pelayo’s men and wiped out. This victory became the first of many and Asturia came to include large parts of the peninsula and was the first of the many medieval Hispanic kingdoms.
---

The Asturian foot knight could also be an axeman, using the same weapon as the axe-thrower, since the Gothic axe was a weapon of the nobility.
Royal Knights would be Caballeros Reales in Castilian.

I think most factions in BI will be able to build religious buildings for different religions, making it possible to have a stav-church in Ansgar's Ribe and a hov to Odin in Roskilde. In fact, I am almost certain this will be possible based on the BI faq.

Rodion Romanovich

09-26-2005, 09:30

stav church [...] i'm really looking forwar to see it ingame

yeah, I was thinking the same thing, it's one of the most important typical Norwegian cultural items IMO, and would be a shame to neglect. I'll probably add some conversion system for the vikings too. That means magyars and vikings will have conversion, while all others haven't (would be waste of work to make bulgars, who converted so shortly after the starting date, with conversion). So then the Norwegian churches could look like that. I wonder though if it isn't necessary to keep buildings of same culture same for all who are of that culture, so that Sweden, Denmark and Rus will also get those as a consequence... Hopefully not, they should be unique to Norway.

@ archbaker: Nice, I edited the royal knights to the new name

Csatadi

09-26-2005, 16:23

Bah, I did not think it is such easy to insert pics.

Scion:
This guy has a full gear I think.
http://www.lovasijasz.sk/images/ferfi_viselet_k.gif

This man looks great. He has another type of headgear. With his red
moustache he seems to be a viking, isn't it? ~;) But I'm sure he has got brown hair. And see the men's braids.
http://www.lovasijasz.sk/galery/30.jpg

This headgear is the most popular one. And see his beautiful horn.
http://www.lovasijasz.sk/galery/05.jpg

I suggest no armour and fokos to the Horse Archers because of they will cost toooo much.

Good job!

tutankamon

09-26-2005, 16:48

yeah, I was thinking the same thing, it's one of the most important typical Norwegian cultural items IMO, and would be a shame to neglect. I'll probably add some conversion system for the vikings too. That means magyars and vikings will have conversion, while all others haven't (would be waste of work to make bulgars, who converted so shortly after the starting date, with conversion). So then the Norwegian churches could look like that. I wonder though if it isn't necessary to keep buildings of same culture same for all who are of that culture, so that Sweden, Denmark and Rus will also get those as a consequence... Hopefully not, they should be unique to Norway.

All though you know that that stav-church is historically/arkeologically incorect?

tutankamon

09-26-2005, 16:59

I would rather go for something like this because it fits in with your timespan..

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5340/stavkirkjk108336dq.jpg
recontruktion of a stav-church from 1060

Archbaker

09-26-2005, 22:00

A bit more on Asturian clothing styles in case you needed more detail.

Primary sources!111one
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scanned/plate_notes/note59.html
Ironic title

http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scanned/plates/plate06.html
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scanned/plates/plate07.html
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scanned/plates/plate04.html
Royal knights

General discussion of Iberian fashion in the period. More Romanesque than Visigothic.
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scanned/main_pages/VI_IX/page14_15.html#chapROMANICO

tutankamon

09-27-2005, 19:15

The newest analyses of arkelogical material shows that many danes where christians even before Denmark was officially christened. This rather rambling discussion is an hypothetical attempt to show why the Danish pagans so easily converted when faced with a proselytizing preacher.

"Our God Does That Too!"

Preacher: Our God is one, and yet has three aspects
Viking: You don't say? funny, our god Oðin comes in three forms too, Oðin, Villi and Ve. Sometimes they're brothers and sometimes they're one person.

Preacher: Ah, but our God made a great sacrifice for us.
Viking: Yeah?

Preacher: He was crucified...
Viking: ???

Preacher: Hung on a cross - the tree of redemption. He even suffered the indignity of a spear thrust though his side.
Viking: Strange you should say that. Oðin hanged himself on a tree with a spear in his side.

Preacher: Yeah? Well, I bet he didn't come back to life again.
Viking: Of course he did. Why would we call him a god if he were dead?

Preacher: I can see I'm not getting through here. Let me tell you what will happen in the last days of earth. A horn will sound...
Viking: It's not called Gjallerhorn, is it?

Preacher: I hadn't finished. A horn will sound and the Lord of Hosts will lead multitudes against the hordes of Hell who are released to join battle.
Viking: I know that. And they'll all die...

Preacher: Hah! But not us! The elect will survive and a new world will arise where we will live in peace for ever.
Viking: I hadn't finished either. That new world will be called Gimli and men and gods shall live in peace.

Preacher: [sigh] Not if you're not a Christian, you won't. The unrighteous will burn in everlasting Hell. The righteous shall sit with God and sing hymns of splendour.
Viking: They'll be lucky. Christians are not allowed to fight. If they're not allowed to fight they won't be getting very far.

Preacher: Fight? We are allowed to fight. If it is a just cause we must fight.
Viking: Just cause, eh? Hmm...

Preacher [getting carried away]: Of course! With the armour of righteousness, and the breastplate of ....
Viking: Whoa, whoa, stop! What's that? Do all Christians get them?

Preacher: Of course. We are assured so by St. Paul. They are the rightful inheritance of all true followers of Christ.
Viking: Do they protect against these new winged spears? Nasty things they are. And my armour's getting a bit worn.

Preacher [expansively]: They protect against everything!
Viking [waking up]: They do? Where do I sign?

skeletor

09-27-2005, 19:50

Nice story ~:cheers:

On the stav chusches, the oldest one still standing was made arond 1100ad. However, alot of the interior carving is older, and probably taken from a rather cimilar structure (i'll find some sources to that). The problem with the structures is that they are made of wood, and have therefor burned down, or roted.

Btw, tutankamon, have you got access to any good reconstruction of Trellborg? it wold be nice to use as a base for the viking city, or fortress.

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

09-27-2005, 19:58

yes very amusing...

GoreBag

09-27-2005, 20:06

That was pretty funny, actually. I still believe the conversions were more like Bathory's One Rode to Asa Bay, though..

Archbaker

09-27-2005, 21:22

I found some pictures of churches and monasteries. I imagine Asturia will share buildings with the other SW European countries, but just in case I will publish them. There are also mosques and palaces from medium-late al-Andalus.

Pre-Romanic Asturian architecture. Romanic refers to the Romanic style of architecture and in this context means the archi
http://www.arteguias.com/arquitecturaprerromanica.htm

10th century Asturian church. The belfry is very common.
http://www.el-caminoreal.com/monumentos/gobiendes.htm

Romanic Iberian architecture (late, but within period)
http://www.arteguias.com/arquitectura.htm
and http://www.arteguias.com/comarcasidra.htm

al-Andalus architecture. Caliphate era.
http://www.arteguias.com/califal.htm

al-Andalus, Taifa era
http://www.arteguias.com/taifas.htm

Trelleborg (just from google search. I'm sure Tut can get better stuff):
http://www.harnois.fr/3d/main.php (bottom row, second picture)
http://www.burgenland-mv.de/html/trelleborg_0.html (gallery)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/Trelle/art1.htm (geometry)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/Trelle/art4.htm (geometry Fyrkat)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/fotoserier/Trelleborg/foto.htm (dig gallery)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/fotoserier/Fyrkat/foto.htm (Fyrkat dig gallery)

tutankamon

09-28-2005, 11:37

Why do you want to make trelleborg? because as I recall most of the cities in Rome:TW are cities.. and in the viking ages most of the siege was around cities not forts.. so why not take the fortified cities that we know of such as Aros (århus) or hedeby as examples..

Hedeby..
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1221/scan00013hf.jpg

https://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8058/scan5fy.jpg

Map of Aros (århus)
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/483/scan00061io.jpg

Houses:
a typpical Danish House Maticle:
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/2465/scan00022vp.jpg

a Grubehouse(little workshop) and a family house..
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8328/scan00037gk.jpg

Another Grubehouse
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4697/scan00091oy.jpg

A view from Aros port..
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8965/scan00049dk.jpg

In the streets of Aros
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4199/scan00053au.jpg

tutankamon

09-28-2005, 12:14

Sorry for the big pictures....

tutankamon

09-28-2005, 12:18

I was wondering I you have thought of ships, allthough they are manily danish, yet if not heres some inspiration.. (based on finds from Roskilde Fjord)

https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/9546/scan00116gn.jpg

https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/8765/scan00103gb.jpg

Meneldil

09-28-2005, 18:41

Thanks for all the infos. It will likely be useful later on.

Archbaker

09-29-2005, 16:49

The al-Andalus tech tree says hashid cavalry two times. I would swap the second one with this:
al-Andalus KnightsWears scarlet tunic over maille and white turban around helmet. Uses round shield and spear. Is esentially a copy of the Caballero Real or the better Frankish knights. Definately better armour than any Abbasid cavalry, but possibly less than the Catholic cavalry of the same rung.
This actually is a knightly unit. It could even be composed of actual feudal knights as al-Andalus was the only Muslim emirate to give fiefs to warriors.

If you want something comparable to Ghulams, the Abid Guard above could be substituted instead. The Al-Murabitun, being a Berber clan, also preferred horseback fighting and could be a good candidate for a cavalry unit.

The al-Andalus army had decent and varied cavalry, but was based on infantry, so more infanty units wouldn't hurt. The Abid Guard can be infantry as easily as cavalry, but not both. And there could also be a cheap (but not levied) unit of white slaves:
Saqlabi Slavic and Iberian slaves. I have no idea what weapons or clothes they would have,
I don't actually know if the faction needs more infantry (it does have nice spearmen), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that those troops too poor to have maille would use a pink-brown jerkin of quilted felt called a pambuck. If they wore anything, that is.

Archbaker

10-08-2005, 18:33

On Boats
My thoughts are that well organised states should have the most powerful, but least seaworthy vessels. Vikings get less combat power each rung, but can build ships from small ports. Byzantium should dominate naval warfare, but Vikings can travel further and probably get more for their money or slower build times.

Mediterranean galleys (Byzantine terminology, but applicable to all Mediterranean powers including Muslims-and probably mainland Catholic factions as well):
Rung1: - Rung2: Ousiako Rung3: Pamphylos Rung 4: Dromon. Greek Fire Siphon Galley (Byzantium only).
The Dromon is a light, fast polyreme crewed with marines and often carrying artillery in addition to rams – late dromonds would have boarding planks instead of rams. Ouisakos and Pamphyli are lighter Dromons. Technically, all Byzantine warships were likely to have Greek fire siphons, but that cannot be represented if ships are to be shared.

Nordic galleys (Norse terminology)
Rung1: Ferja Rung2: Knar Rung3: Snekke Rung 4: Kneid, Norwegian Dragonship (Norvegen only)

Does somebody know anything about Saxon/British galleys? They could just be the first two or three Nordic ones.

I'm collecting some ideas for ancillaries and traits as well.

skeletor

10-08-2005, 19:01

Sounds great!

I think the saxon/british allso used some sort of longships. I have seen some description of them, and they were usually bigger then the vikingships (ould carry more pople). But they were slower, and alot less agile, and didn't have the ability to enter shallow waters.

The greek fire is a must. Do you allso know what ships they were fighting, the muslim ones? And have you got any pic's with styles and type og rigging for the unit description?

-Skel-

Archbaker

10-08-2005, 20:12

I'm neither a sailor nor an archaeologist, but my research tells me that all mediterranean galleys were essentially of the Dromon variety. The Arabs would use different names for them, but today all these ships are referred to as dromons and I have seen wargamers refer to small dromons as pamphylos even if used by Arabs.
The traditional Arab trading ship, on the other hand, was the dhow, but this was useless for war.

Dromon primary sources: http://www.unf.edu/classes/byzantium/image/skylitzes-greekfire.gif
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:ByzantineDromon.jpg

Dromon secondary sources:
http://www.xlegio.ru/ships/bysanteum_dromon.jpg
http://mastor.snd.edu.gr/Museum/Museum_files/aithousaC_files/images/Byzantinos_Dromon.JPG
http://enguerrand.gourong.free.fr/Histoiremarine/gifs%20et%20div/dromon1.gif

Dhow:
http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~mattom/science+society/lectures/illustrations/lecture16/dhow.jpg

I can't find any pictures of ousiaki and pamphyli. Presumably they are just smaller and lighter models, but still have the forecastle and ram.

I would just give the Muslims and Catholics the same ships, but use the imaginary "Greek Fire Galley" to give Byzantium its deserved edge over the others. Otherwise, Byzantium should have a whole range of ships with the word Greek Fire in front of them, and apart from taking up space it might give them too great an advantage; I am sure not every ship would have a siphon, anyway.
Since the Byzantine empire will probably start with at least one city large enough to produce my proposed Greek Fire Galley, this will be a serious threat to would-be Abbassid invaders.

Edit: Oh, and this page has a 3D model of Skuldelev 2, the Skeid.
http://www.stigombord.dk/

Archbaker

10-09-2005, 02:07

This little wargamer page has a bit about Abbassid, but little in terms of historical information.
It does confirm my suspicion that the Jund-Hashid system was in place in the Caliphate, so all ordinary units (as opposed to unique units like desert spearmen, saharan cavalry etc.) can be replaced with the same Jund-hashid units as al-Andalus. It may also hold some inspiration for unit design, but I advise taking it with a huge grain of salt after seeing the same guy's "Viking" army.

Edit: what wargamer page?, you ask. This one:
http://www.miniwars.com/AbbasidArabs.html

edyzmedieval

10-09-2005, 09:33

Hey guys!!

Checking out how my friends are doing.~:)
How's the progress of the Magyar and Khazar units?!

Oh, let me give you some info. Dromons were the basic ship of the Byzantines. They rarely used bigger ships.

And with the Greek Fire, it's kinda hard to implement it.

Archbaker

10-09-2005, 12:01

The Greek Fire Galley is not supposed to be a bigger ship. It is just supposed to be a generic galley (which all Mediterranean warships are) with a Greek Fire siphon.

Rodion Romanovich

10-09-2005, 15:02

Hey guys!!

Checking out how my friends are doing.~:)
How's the progress of the Magyar and Khazar units?!

We're progressing fine, having made about 3 maygar units, and that even though we weren't concentrating fully on putting higher priority magyars and khazars than other units. Now with a priority on those, things will probably go faster.

Oh, let me give you some info. Dromons were the basic ship of the Byzantines. They rarely used bigger ships.

And with the Greek Fire, it's kinda hard to implement it.

Greek fire siphons for land usage is hard to implement, yeah, but ships with greek fire can always be used.

Archbaker

10-10-2005, 17:06

These are a few thoughts on ancillaries and traits. Hopefully useful.

Ancillaries
Note that many of these ancillaries could be offices instead.

*Merchant Sailor* (Norse)
An independent ship owner whose trade in exotic countries brings great wealth back home. Some of his wares have strange blood stains, though.
Increased trade.

*Grand Vizier* (Abbassid, al-Andalus)
A great caliphate has too many matters of state for a single man. The trusted grand vizier helps it run smoothly. The less trusted is a knife at the caliph’s throat.
Management, influence bonus. Possibly security penalty.

*Vizier of Information* (Abbassid)
The Ministry of Information is important in both war and peace.
Reduced agent training cost.

*Vizier* (Abbassid, al-Andalus)
A powerful magistrate and councillor is a valuable retainer.
Management bonus.

*Michael Psellus* (Byzantium. 1018 to at least 1078)
Michael Psellus the Younger is compared to Voltaire. A Platonist in a world of Aristotelians, he revived old Greek thinking and wrote everything from demonologies and treatises on grammar to history books and satires.
Management.

*Skald* (Norse)
A master of verse, knowledgeable about the gods and prepared to enter a battle to personally record the victories of a great lord.
Influence or morale bonus.
*Pharmacist* (Muslims and Byzantium)
Nature holds the remedy to all it inflicts.
Public health.

*Bragi Boddason the Old* (Norse or Swea, before 900)
The first known master of skaldic poetry, servant of several kings and so legendary he may well be the inspiration for the Asir god Bragi.
Influence and morale bonus. Pagan conversion.

*Thorsgode* (Norse)
A gode of Thor is both a servant of the god of battle and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus morale and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Odinsgode* (Norse)
A gode of Odin is both a servant of the Allfather and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus command and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Freyasgode* (Norse)
A gode of Freya is both a servant of the Vanir goddess of fertility and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus population growth and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Ansgar* (HRE and Norse or Svea/Danmark, 810-865)
St. Ansgar, the “Apostle of the North”, was a monk invited to the Danish court where he tried to convert the Danes. Failing that, he set his eyes on Svea Riket where he erected a church in Birka. He was later made bishop of Hamburg and constructed a church in Hedeby with the right to ring the churchbells—although the locals were afraid it would scare away benign spirits.
Bonus Christian conversion.

*Adam of Bremen* (HRE 10??-1085)
The learned Magister Adam Bremensis chronicled the deeds of the bishops of Bremen and described the customs and geography of Scandinavia. He was the first known European to mention Vinland, modern-day North America, in writing.
Bonus management and command against Norse. Increased move points.

*Adalbert of Hamburg* (HRE 1000-1072)
Generous, prudent, and zealous as he was, his character was marred by indomitable pride, which has caused him to be depicted in the blackest colours.
-Adam of Bremen
The archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen was both a politician and a zealot at heart. He was both a missionary of the Slavic Wends and a vicar of the North, although the Scandinavians did not like his Bishopric much.
Adalbert is said to have refused a candidacy to become Pope in order to focus on his mission to the Wends, but was also involved in a power struggle within the court of the holy Roman emperor.
Bonus conversion and influence. Command against Slavs?

*Bishop* (All non-muslim)
An influential representative of the church.
Christian conversion and management.

*Pope* (HRE, Franks and Lotharingia, unique, but can occur at any time)
The Great Pontiff and Bishop of Rome is the most powerful man in the Catholic Church, and holds great influence in political matters as he speaks with the voice of God.
Christian conversion, influence, law.

*Antipope* (HRE, Franks and Lotharingia. unique, but can occur at any time. Rare. Anti-trait to Pope and Bishop)
This man claims to be the true pope. Many support him, but even more consider him a heretic.
Christian conversion, influence, unrest. Maybe less loyalty.

*Ibn Abi Sadiq* (Abbassid. 11th century)
This Persian author of commentaries on classical works of medicine and anatomy has become known as “the Second Hippocrates”.
Public health.

*Avicenna* (Abbassid, 980 - 1037)
Abu Ali Husain ebn-e Abdollah Ebn-e Sina-e Balkhi is among the greatest scientists of the Arabian world. He is the author of hundreds of books and a famed physician.
Troop recovery and public health.

*Monk*
A well educated man who lives an exemplar life in the service of God.
Christian conversion, reduced unrest.

*Ferdowsi Tousi* (Abbassid 935–1020)
The great Persian poet from the province of Khwarazm wrote the impressive national epic the Shahnama, which can both mean Book of Kings and King of Books. This mammoth poem, seven times the length of the Illiad, has been the main source of the preservation of Persian identity and language through the ages. It describes the history of modern Iran from mythical times to after the Arab conquest and chronicles the rise of the prophet Zoroaster.
Morale bonus. Unrest.

*Al-Biruni* (Abbassid 973-1048)
Abu Raihan Biruni was a scientific prodigy. At age 17 he calculated the latitude of his Khwarazmian home town, and at age 22 he published a major treatise on map projections. He calculated the radius of the Earth centuries before it was done in Europe, traveled the known world and spoke several languages.
Bonus management and move points.

*Military Historian* (Byzantium)
Study of the errors of the past will grant us victory in the future.
Bonus command.

*Regös* (Magyar)
A Magyar minstrel conserves lessons of the old gods in song and communes with the dead.
+1 influence and +5 happiness. Maybe pagan conversion.

*Cartographer* (Muslim)
Where Greek and Eastern thinking can be studied freely, mathematical principles influence even the way we see the world.
Bonus line of sight.

*Royal Mare* (Abbassid)
A great man does not deserve a horse like this. A horse like this deserves a great man.
Bonus commanding cavalry. Penalty commanding infantry.

*Pelayo’s Cross* (Asturian, unique)
King Pelayo is said to have made this simple cross from two pieces of wood shortly before the Battle of Covadonga to serve as a sign just like the cross that showed Emperor Constantine the way.
Bonus morale. Christian conversion.

*Piece of the True Cross* (Catholic)
This is a piece of the cross on which the Saviour was crucified. Its importance to god-fearing men is obvious.
Bonus morale. Christian conversion.

*Saintly Relic* (Catholic)
This is a piece of the dead body of a holy man. It inspires all good men and brings blessings of the Lord.
Increased happiness. Christian conversion.

*Averroes* (1126-1198, al-Andalus)
Abu Al-Walid Muhammad Ibn Rushd was a famous philosopher, mathematician and physicist.
Increased management.

*Jewish Translator* (al-Andalus)
Using the best for the task instead of those who share your views furthers learning.
Increased management.

*The Garment of Our Lady* (Frankish, unique)
The garment worn by the Virgin Mary at the time of the annunciation was given to Charlemagne by Empress Irene of Byzantium and serves as a reminder of the virtuous life of the Mother of God.
Morale bonus or decreased squalor/unrest. Christian conversion.

*Patriarch* (Byzantium)
A respected religious leader lends credence to any cause.
Increased command or management, and conversion.

*Rabbi* (Khazar)
Jewish priests maintain the Khazar state religion and occasionally convert members of the general populace, but they rarely represent the major religion in an area.
Judaic conversion.

Traits
I imagine most existing traits will be kept. Where these traits resemble existing ones they can either replace or be put in as the next level.
On Cognomina: If a given cognomen is posthumous (the Saint), or has a well known English translation (Bluetooth), I have given it in English. If it is highly culture-bound, has no good translation (Krake), doesn’t sound like a name in English (Hardråda), make sense in both languages (Hunger) or is best known in its original form (the Ganger), I have kept it as it were and given a short explanation of its meaning.
Cognomina that were likely to surface in any culture (the Good, the Great) have been made universal. Oh, and if I didn’t know the history of it I just skipped the word.

*Too large for his horse* (Normans, possibly Norse. Born. Cognomen the Ganger)
This man is of too great a stature to comfortably ride a horse and prefers to walk anywhere, earning the cognomen “the Walker”
Extra hit points, reduced cavalry command and/or move points.

*Wiry* (Norse or Danmark. Born. Cognomen Krake.)
This man is tall and sinewy, but not very broad-shouldered, earning him the nickname "Krake”., meaning “the Naked Trunk".
Extra hit points, reduced influence.

*Bald* (Lotharingia and Welsh. Cognomen the Bald)
This man has no hair, making him look less fit.
Decreased influence.

*Smeared Name* (Byzantium. Cognomen Copronymus)
Rumour has it this man defecated in the baptismal font as a baby. He has acquired the nickname “the Dung-Named”.
Decreased influence.

*Venerable* (Norse or Danmark. Gained. Gives Cognomen “the Old”)
This man has acquired a reputation of wisdom along with his old age.
Increased influence.

*Blue teeth* (Norse or Danmark. Born. Cognomen Bluetooth)
This man is not famed for his dental hygiene.
Decreased influence.

*Forked beard* (Norse or Danmark and Sweden. Cognomen Forkbeard)
This man has an impressive beard, fashionably split down the middle.
Increased influence.

*Great Conqueror* (All, gained. Gives cognomen “The Great”)
This man has achieved countless victories and is admired near and far, earning him the cognomen “The Great”.
Increased command, influence and management. I think it already exists in the game.

*Saint* (Norse or Danmark, gained. Gives cognomen “the Holy”)
This man is a Christian, and an extremely devout one at that. He will probably be canonised after his death. Foreign dignitaries admire him, but unless his countrymen share his faith his zealousness may be a curse.
Influence and Christian conversion.

*Tough* (Norse or Danmark, gained. Cognomen “the Hardy”)
This man has been through a lot, but always weathered the storm.

*Cursed farmer* (Norse or Danmark. Gained or born. Gives cognomen Hunger)
Lands under this man rarely see a decent harvest. Hunger follows where he goes.
Reduced farming output.

*Great Commander* (Gaelic, cognomen the Lion)
This man is a great commander.
Increased command.

*Wealthy* (Gaelic. Cognomen Cattle-Counter)
This man has become rich from trade and husbandry.
Bonus to income.

*Prostrates* (Gaelic. Cognomen Black-Knee)
This man spends most of the day on his knees in prayer. His devotion is admired, but not very manly.
Increased conversion and happiness. Decreased command.

*Strikes Hard* (Gaelic. Cognomen the Hammer)
This man has a no-nonsense approach to warfare.
Bonus command when attacking.

*Brave* (All. Cognomen the Bold)
Nothing scares this man.
Bonus bodyguard morale.

*Good Man* (All. Gained. Gives Cognomen “the Good”)
This man is famed for his benign rule.
Increased happiness.

*Many Prisoners* (Gaelic. Cognomen Master of the Hostages. Possibly given for not hunting down after battle)
This man has been victorious in many battles, and this has given him some human “bargain chips”.
Increased influence and command.

*Generous* (Norse or Danmark. Gained. Gives cognomen Ejegod)
This man is a very benign ruler, earning him the cognomen “Evergood” or “Generous”.
Reduced unrest. Reduced tax income.

*Fair Haired* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Born. Gives cognomen Hårfager)
This man has long, flowing hair, giving him good looks and showing his health, and earning him the cognomen “Fair Haired”.
Increased hit points and influence.

*Bloody weapons* (Norse or Nordmannaland, Cognomen Bloodaxe)
The merciless style of warfare adopted by this man has given him great success in battle, but the same methods are less valued by his vassals.
Increased command or morale. Increased unrest.

*Pilgrim* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Jorsalfar)
This man has visited the holy city and earned the cognomen “Jerusalem-farer”.
Christian conversion.

*Harsh rule* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Hardråde)
More than most rulers, this man understands that authority should be exercised endlessly. His strict rule has earned him the cognomen “Hard Ruler”
Increased law. Decreased happiness.

*Wise* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Wise)
This man is famed for his wisdom.
Increased management and/or influence.

*Poor* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Barefoot)
It would seem the gods have cursed this man with poverty.
Reduced income.

*Oath of Poverty (Gaelic. Cognomen the Poor)
This man has undertaken an oath of poverty. He donates most of his money to the church and cares little for the income of his community.
Reduced income. Christian conversion

*Partier* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen “Gille”)
This man lives for the parties he throws and is quite famous for them. He is simply referred to as “Party” by those who know him.
Decreased management. Increased influence.

*Solid as a rock* (Norse or Norwegen. Cognomen Stonewall)
This big man refuses to lie down.
Increased hit points and/or morale.

*Disfigured* (All. Cognomen the Hunchback)
This man was born with a severe disfigurement. Only his great standing allows others to see through it to the man inside, and some never manage that.
Reduced influence.

*Redhead* (Norse. Cognomen the Red)
This man has bright red hair.
Increased influence.

*Short* (Normandy. Cognomen Curthose)
This man is not very tall. Others call him “Short-Trousers” behind his back.
Decreased influence.

*Great Defender* (Englisc. Cognomen Ironside)
This man is a very accomplished defender.
Bonus command in defense.

*Strong* (Sweden. Cognomen the Strong)
This man is very physically powerful.
Bonus hit points.

*Champion* (Gaelic. Cognomen the Champion)
This man is a skilled and fit individual fighter.
Bonus hit points.

*Experienced Warrior* (Norse. Cognomen Wartooth (which is the same as Hildetand and a bloody funny name))
The years have brought ever more respect for this man’s skill as a warrior and commander.
Command bonus.

*Vanquisher of Bulgars* (Byzantium or All. Cognomen Bulgar-Slayer)
This man has learned how to defeat the Bulgars through many campaigns.
Command bonus against Bulgars.

*Born in the Purple Room* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Purple-Born or Porphyrogenitos)
This man stresses the fact that he was born in the Purple Room of the palace, where legitimate children are born. Whether this automatically makes him legitimate is another matter.
Increased or decreased influence or something like loyalty or popularity.

*Believes in the Law* (All. Cognomen the Lawful)
A ruler should bring the law to his people.
Increased law.

*Broad-shouldered* (Norse or Svea. Cognomen Vidfamne)
The stature of this man earns him the cognomen “Wide-Fathom”.
Increased hit points.

*Student of Defence* (Byzantium)
Defence is the most important part of strategy.
Good Bonus on defence.

*Primsigned* (Norse)
This man has received a blessing from a Christian priest, but refuses to be properly baptised. This makes him something of a neutral party in the fight between Pagans and Christians.
0% conversion. Is anti-trait to Christian, Muslim and Pagan.

*”Archduke”* (Lotharingia. Should be faction leader)
This man is both archbishop of Cologne and duke of Lotharingia. Such a mix of the first and second estates puts great power into the hands of a single man.
Increased influence and management.

*Shi’ite* (Muslim)
This man believes that Ali was the righteous heir to Mohammed’s throne.
Unrest.

*Nestorian Thinker* (Byzantium)
This man believes that Christ was two persons, human and divine. The sect is named after Nestorius, who claimed never to have held such a belief, but was executed for it anyway.
Unrest

*Orthodox Thinker* (Catholic)
This man’s Christianity lies closer to the teaching of the Eastern Church than to that of the Pope in Rome.
Unrest.

*Catholic Thinker* (Byzantium)
This man bases his religion more on the teachings of the Pope in Rome than on the Patriarch in Byzantium.
Unrest

*Catharean Thinker* (Frankish or Catholic)
This man subscribes to a school of thought so deviant it has almost become synonymous to heresy. He considers the god of the Old Testament identical to Satan and the Demiurge, criticises the clergy, is opposed to oaths and considers women equals.
Unrest.
(this is the origin of the word kætter, if anyone is interested)

*Caulker* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Caulker or Calaphates)
This man is the son of a caulker, and while he is now elevated to a much higher position, he still knows enough of the trade to avoid being cheated by his own shipwrights.
Reduced ship building costs. Possibly increased unrest.
(Caulkers seal ships by putting old rope in between the timber. The Danish word is kalfatrer. Dictionaries tend to devote too much space to nautical terms, but sometimes it comes in handy.)

*Hates Christians* (non-Christians. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so called Son of God.
Bonus attack command against Christian factions, excluding those with both Christian and pagan buildings. Unrest in Christian cities.

*Hates Muslims* (non-Muslims. Maybe Cognomen Moor-slayer (Matamoros), at least for Asturias. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so-called Seal of the Prophets.
Bonus attack command against Muslim factions. Unrest in Muslim cities.

*Hates Pagans* (non-Pagans, including factions with both pagan and non-pagan religion as long as the general is non-pagan. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in-game)
This man has had enough of the primitive polytheists and their wicked ways.
Bonus attack command against pagans and factions with both pagan and non-Pagan buildings. Unrest in pagan cities.

Admiral, Assassin and Diplomat traits and ancillaries
*Erik the Red* (ADMIRAL ancillary Normannaland, 950–1003;)
This proud freeman and sailor has a way of getting in trouble that has given him a drive to find new places to live in peace from pestering "authorities".
Erik Torvaldson was the founder of the colony on Greenland and father of Leif the Lucky Erikson.
*Increased move speed at sea and/or line of sight*

*Good Wind* (ADMIRAL trait. Norse. Cognomen Weatherhat)
This man always has a good wind when leading his ships.
Admiral command stars or fleet move points.

*Jewish Translator* (Diplomat Ancillary, but there is a general ancillary of the same name. al-Andalus)
Recruiting the best for the task instead of those who share your views furthers understanding.
Increased influence. Anti-trait to translator, but better.

*Mozarab* (Diplomat ancillary. al-Andalus)
A usually loyal follower of a different religion.
Increased influence.

Edits:
Added "Porphyrogenitos" as alternate cognomen to Born in the Purple Room trait.
Added Merchant Sailor and Erik the Red to Ancillaries.
Considered putting things in alphabetic order, but was too lazy.
Changed Naked Trunk to Wiry.
Added religiously intolerant traits. The absence of Jew haters is intended. Who doesn't like Jews?
Added traits and ancillaries for admirals and agents.

Rodion Romanovich

10-10-2005, 17:24

Cool, many of those will come in handy ~:) We've planned some traits etc. already but the exact details about how these things will look in the final version of the mod are still very secret though...

skeletor

10-10-2005, 18:10

Wow, thats a long and detailed list Archbaker, exelent.
~:cheers:

-Skel-

edyzmedieval

10-10-2005, 19:34

Good list Archbaker. ~:cheers:

Oh, about the Purple Room, you could write the original "Phorphyrogennetos" Greek name.~:)

Archbaker

10-10-2005, 21:36

the exact details about how these things will look in the final version of the mod are still very secret though...
I imagine. I was just compiling a list of my ideas.

you could write the original "Phorphyrogennetos"
I have generally avoided native cognomina because they are hard to distinguish from ordinary surnames, and it makes the trait description longer when it has to explain what the cognomen means. Porphyrogenitos is a common way to refer to the man in English, though, so I added it back in.

KingOfTheIsles

10-10-2005, 22:45

Sorry if this has been answered, but is it possible to add more religions to the ones in BI? Or do we have to make do with only three?

Ranika

10-11-2005, 00:51

If I may, I'd like to throw in a number of ancillaries for suggestion, considering the British Isles seem a bit light.

Ancillaries
Some unique ones;
Faollan mac Cennetig (Eire, 980-1050; brother of Brian Boru, and a hero in his own right)
The young brother of an influential ruire, he is known for his ability to entice men into service for things other than wealth or loot; specifically, religious salvation and glory for one's clan. However, his hot-headed nature has given him the colloquial name Faollan, or Wolf, 'the Quarrelsome'.
Discounted cost to soldiers, increased troop morale

Garbhan mac Cronn (Alba, 880-940; vaguely related to Kenneth mac Alpin, supposedly; in any event, he was a Pictish monk-turned-chief, who ended up dying of the flu, to no one's surprise, but held a bit of clout during his lifetime)
Garbhan is a well-trained historian, monk, mssionary, and chief, of Pictish extraction. His loyalty to the king of Alba is impressive, but he seems constantly ill, and likely to die of disease, but not before converting a few pagans, most likely.
Command bonus, Christian conversion bonus

Other ancilliaries;
Androann (Welsh)
The defense of a fort is made more effective by a man who's life revolves around building and protecting such things.
Bonus to defense during a siege

Bard (Gaels and Welsh, perhaps even Saxons?)
The Celtic bard is not a dead tradition by any means. To the contrary, most Gaelic and Welsh courts have numerous poets, singers, and storytellers. This both impresses guests, and keeps the master of this bard entertained.
Influence bonus

Flath (Gaels)
Gaelic 'princes' and powerful chiefs are used to help administrate a region; it's always helpful to have a 'man on the ground', mingling with tribes and clans and local headsmen, to effectively manage a region to its full potential.
Bonus management, troop morale bonus

Gardener (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
Well kept gardens are good for entertaining guests, and help make a noble or aristocrat's manor or fortress look more artistic; even in the dark ages, one cannot underestimate the appreciation of natural beauty.
Influence bonus

Heralder (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
A man who can recount the deeds of one's father, and forefathers, can be useful to impress, as well as show respect for one's family history.
Influence bonus

Ordinate of the White Oak (All British/Irish factions)
The dual-monastary of the White Oak was initially founded in Ireland, supposedly by St. Bride. The ordinates, both monks and nuns, of the White Oak spread throughout Britain, preaching and tending to the sick and the wounded; a necessity of the many wars that racked the area.
Public health bonus, Christian conversion, more soldiers heal after a successful battle

Surgeon (All British/Irish factions)
Dark age British surgery isn't very pretty, but it exists. Using a combination of natural painkillers, one's own hands, and various metal tools, many of which cut, a surgeun exists to try and keep a man alive, not necessarily all in one piece.
More soldiers heal after a successful battle, public health bonus

Tax Collector (I'd assume almost all)
A local treasurer has the duty of both keeping an eye on money, as well as ensuring no one thieves from it. He also has the second duty of organizing tax collection, and can be helpful in extracting money from those who 'forget' to pay their taxes.
Reduce corruption, increased tax income, happiness penalty, law bonus

Corrupt Tax Collector (Again, I'd assume nearly everyone)
This treasurer is corrupt; a thief. He either embezzles, or aides in the embezzlement of taxes, and manages to hide these thefts from his superiors.
Increase corruption, decrease tax income, happiness and law penalties

Rodion Romanovich

10-11-2005, 08:06

Sorry if this has been answered, but is it possible to add more religions to the ones in BI? Or do we have to make do with only three?

It's indeed possible to add more religions, and you can expect to see 7 in our mod if I remember correctly.

Archbaker

10-11-2005, 16:14

I can't know if our developer friends have a whole lot of Scottish ancillaries, but if my humble list is any indication then these will come in very handy.

Gardener (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
Definately Muslims as well, or at least al-Andalus. I don't know so much about the Abbasids.

Heralder (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
Isn't that just herald? Mr. Longman seems to think so.
Anyway, I think all European Catholics should have one. The Norse had skalds (or rather some funny word I can't remember right now, but which was usually part of the office of a skald) for that job in most of the period.

7
Let me guess:
Norse (heathen) paganism.
Magyar paganism.
Orthodox Christianity
Catholic Christianity
Judaism
Islam
Irish Christianity?

I'm sure I didn't get them all right

Meneldil

10-11-2005, 18:54

You did not ~;)

Considering we may have as many as 10 religions, we might add a few more later.

GoreBag

10-11-2005, 19:11

Irish Christianity?

More often known as Celtic Christianity. The Men of Alba will partake in this cult as well, at least until King Malcolm marries a princess from the south end of the island (which can't happen in RTW...).

Ranika

10-11-2005, 22:11

If we're going to do things like Celtic Christianity, why not Asturian Christianity as well? Celtic Christianity was not in disunion with the church of Rome, it was merely autonomous; it held the same beliefs and bowed to the will of Rome, but due to isolation, it operated, more or less, with a great deal of freedom, and had its own rituals (such as giving mass in a Gaelic or local language {since Celtic Christians actually inhabitted quite a part of Europe at one time} instead of Latin). So did the church of the Asturians. I don't object to the use of them, I think it adds a bit of flavor. However, I will note, if you do use this, it should not just exist in Ireland and Britain; Celtic missionaries were present in most of Europe, and there should be some initial scant amounts of Celtic Christians in most of western and some of eastern Europe. While I do like the idea of some factions being able to select these churches and rites, I'd recommend to also allow them Roman Catholicism (any British faction should have access to either church, as they often existed interchangably, and even in Ireland there was a Roman rite minority in Leinster, though no Roman rite Catholics existed in any major numbers elsewhere on the island for a few centuries).

I would also recommend the Coptics, who are, in my opinion more worthy than either (though if you can do both Celtic and Asturian Christianity, along with Coptic Christianity, that'd be great). The Copts were clearly a very important group, and were not in union with any church (though today they've had movements toward unity with the Roman Catholic Church; at the least, greatly improved relations). They were completely indepedent, and more than once, the Orthodox Church was rather vehemently opposed to them. For those unaware, the Copts inhabited Egypt, mainly, but Coptic churches exist in many places, but mainly Egypt.

Also, be aware of when the Orthodox and Catholic churches actually seperated. It was 879 that Patriarch Photius of Constantinople and Pope John VIII initially had the divergent arguments that would ultimately lead to schism. However, the schism itself didn't fully consumate until 1054 under Patriarch Cerularious. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have Orthodoxy; like the Celtic and Asturian, and other rites, there were specific traditions associated with it.

However, there were a lot of rites like that, and you need to focus on the major ones. The most widespread in Europe were the Roman, Orthodox, and Celtic rites. However, there were also (large groups of) Asturians, Copts (actually not that large, but rather influential), Armenians, Maronites (Syrians and nearby Christians), and Chaldeans. There is a catch all term for eastern Christians (discluding the Armenians and Copts) from the period that appears sometimes in church literature, being Arabenan, from 'Arab'. These are mostly various local Catholic rites, but also some Orthodox rites, and indepedent churches as well. It's just a catch all for the numerous churches and rites in Arabia and other portions of the east.

Archbaker

10-11-2005, 22:37

That was really informative, Ranika. Thanks for enlightening me.

Mine are just guesses of course. Maybe there is no Celtic Christianity.

Anyway, I would like to point something out. The way religion works in the game is that you have to maintain a correspondence between official religion and the religion of your subjects, at least on the local scale.

If a region is split between Christianity and Zoroastrianism flowing in from neighbouriong regions, then you have to replace churches with whatever Zoroastrians have, improve your conversion rate or go and smite the Zoroastrians.
Conversely, by spreading Christian influence among the Romans, you can force them to loose areas to rebellions or devote resources on happiness or conversion.

This would be a weird thing to happen with Asturian influence on Franks or vice versa. In fact, Asturians and Franks should have very little reason to be at permanent war with each other as long as they havde more obvious enemies.
The same goes for most variations within Christianity, and possibly between pagans as well. There is no reason for happiness in a Roman Catholic area to decrease because it is next to a Celtic or Asturian one.
Based on that, I would advise against religions that are this similar. But maybe you already made that decision and I am way off on what your religions are.

Maybe you have Shia´and Sunni Islam, which are somewhat more schismatic, yet both viable for both Caliphates (who had the occasional Shi'a ruler).
Maybe you have a native Khazar religion as of yet undisclosed. Or native Persian. Or Zoroastrianism. The possibilities are endless, but I cannot stop guessing. Seriously, I need help.

Ranika

10-11-2005, 22:53

This would be a weird thing to happen with Asturian influence on Franks or vice versa. In fact, Asturians and Franks should have very little reason to be at permanent war with each other as long as they havde more obvious enemies.
The same goes for most variations within Christianity, and possibly between pagans as well. There is no reason for happiness in a Roman Catholic area to decrease because it is next to a Celtic or Asturian one.
Based on that, I would advise against religions that are this similar. But maybe you already made that decision and I am way off on what your religions are.

While it's true in a religious sense they didn't conflict, such differences did spawn culture conflicts, at least in Britain. Mind you, the Orthodox/Catholic split was based more on cultural complaints that came about due to their ritualistic doctrines (doctrines, which, themselves, came about through cultural behaviors in the region; a kind of circular process). Celtic churches inspired cultural behaviors that weren't always in tune with those around them, such as a kind of 'anti-tyrant' streak that made it rather prone to inciting anger toward more powerful monarchist systems. The Gaels used to call most European kings 'tyrar', from 'tyrannos', or 'tyrant' because of how much power individual monarchs could hold. While it was fine in Gaelic Britain and Ireland, which had elective systems and systems of checks and balances, more powerful monarchs were not a favorite of those who had been practicing Celtic Christian religion, but Celtic Christian morality that was taught by the religion. While the Roman Church itself had no trouble with the Celtic Church, the same can't be said of secular rulers dealing with the backblow of being surrounded by those embracing a Celtic moral culture that was, at best, distasteful toward them, and, at worse, flatly opposed to them.

The rites were, ultimately, based upon exemplification of the local culture in respect to Christendom. The Gaels and Celtic British were not overt monarchists or imperialists. While they had strong monarchies sometimes, they still were not favoring toward absolute monarchy or empire. Their rite of Christianity reflected that cultural belief. The rites spawned in the Roman empire had a favoritism toward stronger monarchies, and, as such, found more popularity among many European monarchs who had absorbed large amounts of Roman culture. As such, variants in Christianity shouldn't be seen as representing tension between the religions themselves, necessarily, though it can (Orthodox/Catholic split had strong religious tension, but still borne of local cultural problems), but more along the lines of culture war. Celtic monks mostly converted low people in most of the places they preached, and due to the moral considerations they carried, it might be reasonable to assume that people who had absorbed the morals they preached to be a bit unhappy with rulers who didn't share their beliefs (though would ultimately assimilate into their rulers beliefs). It doesn't matter if they recognize themselves as 'Celtic' Christians, but more that they recognize what they see as proper Christian morality, and see their leaders as not following it.

In this vein, I'll note that the Asturian rite was a byproduct of Celtic missionaries in northern Spain, and was ostensibly Celtic in moral and cultural teachings, and having Asturians able to build Celtic rite churches is not inappropriate, since, at one time, it did hold rather close ties to the Irish (and if one wants to carry over these relations into later kingdoms, this was the beginning of Spain and Ireland's very long running good relations, culminating during the 'Flight of the Earls', when many dozens of Irish nobles fled to Spain, and were given the lands of more disloyal, local nobles; the same thing occured in France, also based on relations originally culminating under Celtic missions, but they far more downplayed in the Frankish Empire, which was far closer to Rome culturally).

Some examples in differences between the doctrinal Celtic and Roman rites, and conflicts to come about from it (some with help from New Advent; I did a big paper on these things, but it's quite complex and takes forever to recall, so this is quicker);

Baptisms; there is no solid evidence, but it appears the baptism in Britain and Ireland was performed the same as in northern Spain; a single, full body immersion. A letter from the Pope Zacharias to Boniface said that a British synod (a Saxon one specifically, but no more specific than that) had forbidden any baptism except in the name of the Trinity, and had declared that "whoever omits the name of any person of the Trinity does not truly baptize but in falsity". This is congruent with the baptisms of northern Spain, and, due to the intercourses between the region and Celtic missionaries, it seems possible that they shared the same baptism originated in the same place, and was originated in the Celtic rite.

The tonsure (the pattern in which monks shaved their heads); the Roman tonsure is 'coronal', shaving a circular region in one's hair. However, the Celtic tonsure instead involves shaving the whole head in front of a line drawn from ear to ear. The Romans referred to this as tonsura magorum, referring to the method in which druids supposedly once shaved their heads, and was subsequently absorbed into the Celtic rite (or more descriptively, 'rites') of Christianity.

While much of Britain was probably like the Gallic church (which was, itself, by this time, like the Roman church) by this time (the Gallic rite had by this time been united with the Roman rite), Cornwall was reintroduced to Christianity after the pagan King Teudar, by missionaries from Ireland. Cornwall then had problems with the Saxon church, which was presumably closer to the Roman rite in the south. Indeed, there was an argument from the days of St. Aldhelm, into the 10th century, due to the presence of specific different rituals and beliefs in Cornwall, that were staunchly 'anti-tyrant'. While the existence of a staunchly Celtic church with wholely different rites is arguable, there was clearly a difference in the Gaelic-Celtic church, which was, by this point, introduced to most of Britain (except the southeast), and large portions of Europe; the arguments between the diocese in Cornwall and the Saxon bishops is a large marker of distaste between the two, though the argument appears largely political (not declaring eachother heretical, but rather, each saying the other was backward in customs and awkward).

The rite of the Scoto-Northumbrian Church falls in with the Celtic rites, as it originated in Ireland. It seems to have had some unique bits, but it worked in perfect concert with the Irish priests. While the Picts/Scots used the Roman tonsure, it seems any such little curiousities were outweighed by actual religious concerns. It experienced severe cultural disunity with the Saxons in the Roman rite, and arguments hinged on two things, explored in the next point.

Lax rulership versus lax clergy. In the Celtic rite, there was a very strict hierarchy and the duty of missionaries was quite plainly one of the most important parts of culture. Clergy held substantial clout, and rulers were expected to work with them, or even submit to their wisdom in many cases. The Roman rite put much weight on the power of a monarch, arguably too much for its own good, leading to numerous events where the papacy would be subverted by the power of secular rulers due to the clout given to them. In such places, clergy were not 'lazy', but they weren't often as hard working; they didn't have a reason to be, because they had such little power compared to the ruler's of the kingdoms they inhabitted.

The Book of Cerne. This book was of Northumbrian or Mercian origin; a large collection of prayers, hymns, stories, and poetry, for private use, associated with the name of Aethelwald the Bishop, possibly a Bishop of Lindisfarne (712-40), but perhaps a later Bishop of Lichfield (818-30). It is filled with Irish, Gelasian, and Hispano-Gallican matter, including poems and prayers of clearly Celtic origin. This book was considered inappropriate for church use by the southern, Roman rite Saxons, but fine for private consumption. However, some of the moral lessons within were not so popular with the kings of the Saxons, and, exercising their strength over clergy, had it disallowed for church use, though few actually libraries lacked at least some portions of the book.

In the Celtic Church, the chalice was prepared before the Introit, a very usual practice in both East and West in early times. It is still the Eastern practice, and is retained to this day by the Dominicans at low Mass, and in the Mozarabic Rite. At the time, this led to an argument between Irish and Cornish bishops, against Saxons and Frankish bishops.

In the Leabhar Breac there is a tract describing the consecration of a church. The ceremony is divided into five parts, the consecration of the floor, and of the altar with its furniture, the consecration out of doors, the aspersion inside, and the aspersion outside. The consecration of the floor includes the writing of two alphabets thereon. There are directed to be seven crosses cut on the altar, and nothing is said about relics. On the whole the service appears to be of the same type as the Roman, though differing in details, and if the order of the component parts as given in the tract may be taken as correct, in order also.

There are many native Irish hymns both in Latin and Irish. Of these, most no doubt were not intended for liturgical use, but rather for private reading, but a certain number were undoubtedly used in the services of the Celtic Church. In the "Liber Hymnorum" there are hymns by Patrick, Columba, Gildas, Sechnall, Ultan, Cummaim of Clonfert, Muging, Coleman mac UiClussaigh, Colman Mac Murchan, Cuchuimne, Oengus, Fiach, Broccan, Sanctam, Scandalan Mor, Mael-Isu ua Brolchain, and Ninine, besides a few by non-Irish poets. The Bangor Antiphoner adds the names of Comgall and Camelac to the list. Of the twelve hymns given in the latter, eight are not found elsewhere, and ten are certainly intended for liturgical use.

Why are the native hymns unusual? By this time, most hymns were rather 'standard', and shared in most of the Catholic world. Only in Ireland, Britain, Britanny, parts of France, and Galacia and Asturia were Irish hymns used (though all of these places and many more used more standard Latin hymns). While most places had some local hymns (often about local saints), the sheer number of Irish hymns used over a wide distance suggests the presence of an autonomous rite.

While such things may seem minor to non-Catholics (or non-practicing Catholics), in the shoes of devout, practicing Christians of the dark ages, these are rather disuniting things. Coupled with the cultural behaviors encouraged by individual rites, there is a great chance for disconcernment. Would they be more likely to ally against heathens? Of course, but that doesn't mean they'd necessarily be happy with one another either.

Csatadi

10-11-2005, 22:55

Were the Bulgarians Christians or not?
If not, they are pagans, too.

Meneldil

10-12-2005, 06:13

Actually, here are the religions planned

Catholicism
Orthodoxism (if we can trigger it)
Judaism
Shia Islam
Sunni Islam
Viking Paganism
Slav Paganism

I was thinking among the line of adding a eastern christianism, maybe the Copts or the Nestorians, but I'm not really sure these would be useful gameplay wise.

Ranika

10-12-2005, 06:13

A little addendum idea to my above rant;

What about when upgrading 'local' churches for Celtic Christians, you are given the option to change the church to the Roman rite (and then on follow the Roman rite with that church), or keep it Celtic? That way, one could change their church over time if Roman rite Christians grew more prevalent in the region. There was a noticeable improvement in relations between places that 'converted' to the Roman rite.

Also, of Orthodoxy, in the same way, you don't necessarily need to 'trigger' it; the eastern Christians in Greece and the like had their own rites and concerns. While ostensibly in the same church initially as the western Christians, their disconcern with one another was pretty intense, which is what led to the schism anyway.

Eastern Christians, I'd recommend Copts or Arabenan or Nestorians; Copts maybe, because Coptic churches were allowed to persist for some time to keep populations pacified, and as a kind of safety to measure to avoid enraging the Christian kingdoms too much (which did work for a while). However, they also did that with other rites; if it came to it, could just have a catch all 'eastern Christianity'.

Of religions to add, I'd suggest eastern/north Africian paganism (which still persisted for a little while in some regions; if not this, some other form of paganism, there still quite a number of pagans in different places, including Britain, but the remaining British pagans were heavily affected by Norse paganism, so that can be used there for some initial remaining pagans), Celtic Christianity, and some form of eastern Christianity.

Archbaker

10-12-2005, 12:16

What about when upgrading 'local' churches for Celtic Christians,

I would suggest making any faction that could have two religions (Danmark, Nordmannaland and Svea Riket spring to mind) the option of building two kinds of religious buildings like the Goths and Romans in BI.
Edit: Wording.

That way, the player has some more freedom and the fact that different areas within some empires could have different religions is represented.

Now on to other things.

Is it possible to change the options when you conquer a city? For instance "take slaves" could be limited to Norse and Muslims, and Vikings might be given the ability to sack without being in a horde.

And yet other things.

I was looking at Asturia's tech tree, and I realised that the Foot Knight should be based off the Hidalgos and not the Reales, so I suggest this:
Weaponsmith's guild (Foot Hidalgos [sword, round shield]),

I also came to the conclusion that the throwing axe-man was not really historic.
It can represent the existence of a rarely used throwing weapon, of course, but that is not really in the spirit of the other units made for Vikings and Fanatics.
But I am not sure what to replace them with. Possibly just change their name to Visigothic Nobles and let them keep the throwing axes. Their style of dress would be similar to that of Caballeros Reales, but from an earlier period with less armour.

Afsin

10-12-2005, 14:36

[removed]

Csatadi

10-13-2005, 09:16

What about Steppe Shamanism? For the Bulgars, Magyars & Khazars?
As you said. The Khazars were pagans, too, only the leaders got the Judaism.

Meneldil

10-13-2005, 10:59

I thought the extend of the spread of Judaism into the Khazar Khagnate was still unknown.

Afsin

10-13-2005, 13:12

[removed]

Archbaker

10-13-2005, 16:22

Apparently there is some evidence of burial rites and other customs changing around the time of the conversion, and they did have a good deal of synagogues, so I don't think it can be said exactly how many were Jews outside the social elite.

I've only done internet research, mind you, so maybe you know things I don't.

Afsin

10-13-2005, 19:55

[removed]

Rodion Romanovich

10-14-2005, 07:45

The tolerance could be depicted by giving the khazars the possibility of choosing between shamanism and judaism, perhaps also the possibility to choose between more religions. Anyway, I read that the khazar shamanism was strongly influenced by confusian and other ideals, and was very different from most other forms of steppe shamanism.

edyzmedieval

10-14-2005, 21:28

You have our Byzantine tech tree. ~:)
Khazar and Bulgar tommorrow. ~:)

edyzmedieval

10-14-2005, 23:07

So, I spotted some things.
For the Bulgar tech tree:

Zera - indeed, Horse archers
Imnik - you could call them Chimnik also

Also, I'll give you some sneak info:

Khorasan Iranian Guard(I haven't seen them)

For the Abbasid Caliphate. Very powerful units, they were the "Varangian Guards" of the Caliphs. ~:)

We have them for the Khazars.

Rodion Romanovich

10-15-2005, 09:11

Ok, thanks. The Abbassids are indeed not a finished tech tree. In fact, the Abbassids are the only we haven't finished yet, but the others may still have some misspellings etc. in the names, however the unit lists are ready for those. I don't think the khazars should have this Iranian guard, but they have Khazar royal guard or similar, which is a very good spear-armed infantry force of high quality but limited in numbers due to it's high cost, and was recruited from Khwarazm in the Iran area. In fact, I think that could be the very same unit, so the unit can hopefully be used by both mods. I'll have a look and perhaps change the name to Khorasan Iranian Guard.

edyzmedieval

10-15-2005, 12:28

I've found about the Khorasan Iranian Guard in a huge old book, regarding the Middle Ages.

It says that they were recruited from the Khorasan region of Iran, and they acted as a personal guard of the Abbasid Caliphs, just like a Varangian Guard. Not much info about them though(regarding their equipment)

Archbaker

10-15-2005, 12:43

I think most of the Abbassid professional soldiers were from Khwarazm. At least the core troops.

Rodion Romanovich

10-15-2005, 15:40

Ok, so then it's the same unit ~:) The name Khorasan Iranian Guard sounds better, at least for the Abbassid version of the unit. Anyway, in Khazar they were heavy spearmen or heavy swordsmen, which is what they'll be in AOVAF - there are two units of the type.

sera

10-15-2005, 15:55

*Hates Christians* (non-Christians. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so called Son of God.
Bonus attack command against Christian factions, excluding those with both Christian and pagan buildings. Unrest in Christian cities.

*Hates Muslims* (non-Muslims. Maybe Cognomen Moor-slayer (Matamoros), at least for Asturias. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so-called Seal of the Prophets.
Bonus attack command against Muslim factions. Unrest in Muslim cities.

*Hates Pagans* (non-Pagans, including factions with both pagan and non-pagan religion as long as the general is non-pagan. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in-game)
This man has had enough of the primitive polytheists and their wicked ways.
Bonus attack command against pagans and factions with both pagan and non-Pagan buildings. Unrest in pagan cities.

Nice list Archbaker!

One comment on these though. Hate, if too strong, blinds and could quite likely have an adverse effect on command realistically. I'd suggest a morale increase and possibly an attack bonus, but a defense malus as an alternative.

The Stranger

10-15-2005, 16:00

guys i'm almost finished reforming all units...but i really need you to decide on the final weapon layout and on how we're going to do upkeep, hp and recruitcost

Rodion Romanovich

10-15-2005, 17:07

The recruitment costs etc. depend on how the income of the settlements will be, so it's hard to tell at this time what exact costs we'll have, and if I said something now we'll most likelyt need to multiply all values with either a constant, or make them the logarithm of their values, or the exponential of their values (sorry for being too mathematical :dizzy2: ). In clear text: either all will become cheaper or more expensive, or all cheap will become more expensive or all expensive will stand out less from the rest etc. I think it's easiest to start from settlement income and then balance units after that, rather than the opposite, due to hardcoded limits. But the settlements aren't finished yet... So I suggest you just don't bother editing the recruitment costs yet, it'll just mean a lot of work that has to be redone. How much of the unit combat stats have you done so far?

The Stranger

10-15-2005, 17:46

i think 50 to 60 percent i hope to get 90 at the and of this week

Archbaker

10-15-2005, 18:18

Nice list Archbaker!
One comment on these though. Hate, if too strong, blinds and could quite likely have an adverse effect on command realistically. I'd suggest a morale increase and possibly an attack bonus, but a defense malus as an alternative.

Hate definately isn't a very productive emotion most of the time, but I assumed this hate would have let the generals to dedicate themselves to fighting the objects of their hate.
I don't think you can say how performance in any field is "realistically" influenced by hate, but I assume that you imagine a general who hates his opponent too much to understand their ways, opposite of the general with a turncoat ancillary who gets improved command because he understands the enemy command structure better.

I don't really have any preferences for this. I think the decision should be based on what will nake for the best gameplay and leave it to the developers.

What a lot of words to say so little, eh?

skeletor

10-15-2005, 19:48

I think hate "faction" wold be really cool to add, and it should then be in a positive way when fighting them.

Like "Hate Vikings" to british general, makes them more dedicated to win battles, and study how to defeat them. you could just edit the bonus fighting "faction" wllready ingame..

-Skel-

Csatadi

10-15-2005, 21:58

Some ancillaries:

Táltos (Magyar) pagan priest see also the tech tree
He cures the people, tells the future and keeps the contact with the spirit world.
+1 influence, +1 public health, BattleSurgery 10 [half of the usual]

Turda, unique (Magyar) 855-900
He is the head táltos and soothsayer.
+2 influence, +2 moral

Botond, unique (Magyar) 930-970
Little-statured but mighty warrior who was able to break with his axe the gate of Constatinople.
Reduced unit cost, increased troop morale +1

Note: the Regös written by Archbaker is not related only to paganism.

Shaman (Bulgarian)
He cures the people, tells the future and keeps the contact with the spirit world.
+1 influence, +1 public health, BattleSurgery 10 [half of the usual]

Bo Kolaber = A warrior shaman who blesses the warriors before combat. (Bulgarian)
I didn't find other sites about this type of shamans.

I suppose Bulgarians may choose between the Christian and Shamanistic religion. In this case these shamans aren't compatible with Christian priests of course.

Khazar religion
I think the Khazars may build muslim temples and pagan shrines and the people get bonuses from them. But the leaders don't get priests from either, they are jews by religion.
The rulers are jews but jew synagogue would not give bonuses to the historically pagan or muslim people.
The easiest solution is if the family members get rabbies simply sitting in at least a level 2 city. But one-half or one-third chance than the other priests.
Another way if synagogues for Khazars are compatible with other temples but they do not give any bonuses.

Archbaker

10-15-2005, 22:28

I think the Khazars may build muslim temples and pagan shrines and the people get bonuses from them. But the leaders don't get priests from either, they are jews by religion.
The rulers are jews but jew synagogue would not give bonuses to the historically pagan or muslim people.
I don't understand why everybody has suddenly turned 180 degrees and decided that only the upper class were Jews.
For one thing, it is not known how many Khazars were Jews, but it is known that many came to follow certain Jewish customs and that their neighbours considered them a Jewish country.
For another, only the opinion of the ruling class really matters. Al-Andalus was full of Christians and Jews, but the main religious building in any given city would still be a mosque.

It is not an obvious conclusion that Khazars should have Judaism as their game religion. But too little is known about the Khazars to make an irrefutable conclusion to either side so you might as well choose what you feel will be best for the game.

I do not think it would be a bad idea to give Khazars the ability to construct Muslim, Christian or Pagan buildings, but I think it defeats the purpose of having Judaism in the game if they can't also build synagogues that have a bonus and a conversion rating.

edyzmedieval

10-15-2005, 22:51

Archbaker is right.
At Byzantium TW, the Khazar Khaganate has the ability to build mosques, synagogues and shamanic shrines.

Oh, Legio, do you mind if we use some of the traits and ancilliaries for Hungary?! We need research regarding these guys.....

Rodion Romanovich

10-16-2005, 09:00

You mean from the trait list in this thread? Sure ~:)

Meneldil

10-16-2005, 09:12

I don't understand why everybody has suddenly turned 180 degrees and decided that only the upper class were Jews.
For one thing, it is not known how many Khazars were Jews, but it is known that many came to follow certain Jewish customs and that their neighbours considered them a Jewish country.
For another, only the opinion of the ruling class really matters. Al-Andalus was full of Christians and Jews, but the main religious building in any given city would still be a mosque.

It is not an obvious conclusion that Khazars should have Judaism as their game religion. But too little is known about the Khazars to make an irrefutable conclusion to either side so you might as well choose what you feel will be best for the game.

I do not think it would be a bad idea to give Khazars the ability to construct Muslim, Christian or Pagan buildings, but I think it defeats the purpose of having Judaism in the game if they can't also build synagogues that have a bonus and a conversion rating.

Agreed, many ancient sources describe Khazar as a (or even *the*) Jewish country. The fact people were still muslims or pagans is irrevelant.

Rodion Romanovich

10-16-2005, 10:15

I for one haven't turned 180 degrees. I've always held and still do hold the opinion that the khazars should have synagogues, but I also think their religious tolerance should give them the ability to keep and upgrade other religious buildings in settlements they conquer, so as to avoid the different-religion-penalty on public order.

Ranika

10-17-2005, 02:07

Why not simply have more-or-less historic starting settlement setups? That is; have things built that should probably be there. In that way, you can have temples and mosques pre-built for the Khazars; the AI won't demolish and replace them with synagogues. You could have maybe one region with a synagogue, representing aristocracy and small parts of the population as being Jews. This would also let the Khazars spread Judiasm if they were to expand, but if a region had indigenous religious structures built, they wouldn't need to do anything.

Rodion Romanovich

10-17-2005, 08:42

That's pretty much what is intended, i.e. settlements will mostly start with buildings they probably had at the starting time of the mod.

Nacheras

11-03-2005, 00:44

Units of Al-Andalus Caliphate

First of all, you must realize that amirs or caliphas of Al-Andalus used mercenaries as a permanent army, and levies for unique campaign. Usually andalusy units are more disciplined than asturian units. They had a complete officer-command-tree (hope you understand my english), like modern armies, in front of the indisciplined feudal christian armies

Remember for the skins (sorry, I´ve not find images of this soldiers): moorish or berbers are dark brown, arabs soft brown (and good beards), andalusians mediterranian (like italians for example), and slaves similar to north christian kingdoms or even central europe inhabitants (blonde white).

- Mamaliks: A corpse of 5000 men raised by Al-Hakam I (796-822). They were slaves, majority european (look at those "arab skins", that are not suitable for these) and mercenaries. They were infantry and cavalry, loyal to sultan. Good morale and stamina. Sorry, don´t know more caracteristics, but I believe they are the toughted and elite infantry and cavalry (palatinan).

- Arab noble cavalry: Heavy noble cavalry, expensive and scanty. The proud descendent of the few autentic arab patrician families that conquered Spain from goths. Well armed, of course.

- Arab light cavalry: Light cavalry similar to other arab cavalries.

- Murtazika: Berber heavy infantry. Recruited from North Africa. permanent and good trained warrirors. Really moorish skin.

- Muttawia: Berber light infantry. Recruited from North Africa. Lower quality and more affordable cost.

- Muyahids: Recriuted from North Africa and other parts of islamic world. Faith warriors, called by the jihad against infidels. Excellent morale and stamina. If could be possible, they would receive a boost of morale if they combat christian or pagan.

- Andalusian cavalry: Medium cavalry of spanish noble muslims. Mainly nobles. Not as good as arab nobles but less expensive. Quite fast and good balance between armour and cost. They had coat of mail (mudarra), a long lance (rumh) and a round shield (turs). They use a high saddle, like christians, that gives them stability but limits their movements. Low stirrups.

- Berber cavalry. Light cavalry. Fast, very fast. Poorly armoured (properly said, no armoured). Javelins thrown and sabre. No goods for charge, like are arab noble and andalusian cavalry. They wear an oval shield called "daraka". Low or plain saddle and short stirrups: speed and manouverability

- Rigal: Andalusian line infantry. Completed balanced infantry. Not excellent in any item but good in all of them. They wear javelin (mazarik), spear and round shield. Not mail coat. They form in phalanx-like or shieldwall-like formation (OK, could be not so effective), are disciplined and good morale.

- Rumat: andalusian bowmen. Pay attention: they use the frankish big bow, not the small arab one (andalusians were influenzied by european military uses). You can say they are average archers, but with good range (similar to the frankish archers). Not armoured.

- Andalusians used catapults and rams.

- Navies used similar ships to other muslim kingdoms

Abu-Bakr al Turtusí describes the andalusian tactic: a infantry line, stayed static with a land-knee and shield and spear wall, protecting the bowmen behind them. When the cristians approach, they throw at them arrows and finally javelins. After weakened in that manner enemy lines, they execute a oddly tactic: opened by middle the line and let pass the carge of cavalry.

Nacheras

11-03-2005, 01:31

I have seen now the list of Archbaker. it´s quite different.
I assume I could be wrong, but I think negroes and camels arrived at Spain with the african invasions: Almoravids the earliest around 1086 (only 11 years before the teoric finish of AOVAF).

Here are some building in Al-Andalus (i´m not sure if this must go here or in "teach tree" thread)

- Dar assikka: coin factory
- Kaisariya: Great Bazaar.
- Madrassa: school. Similar to academy of RTW.
- Madinat: Palace
- Aswak: commercial suburb
- Mosque. Not only religious building but also superior school and library.
- Kantara: aqueduct

The coin was the dinar

Good farmer development, similar to bizantinum and superior to frankish or asturican. Andalusies inherited and improved latifundia roman system.
Excellent trade development, also ports and roads. Roads are similar to the roman higways in quality and were places at the same places.

Mines were underexploted to roman times: roman wasted most of mineral resources of Sapin, and arabs were unexpert at this area. Gold near Toledo, Silver at Murcia and Corduba, Mercury at Corduba. Iron north of Sevilla. Tin at Algarve (south coast of Portugal).

Nacheras

11-03-2005, 01:53

One more post ~:rolleyes:

some links to pages with images of muslim medieval warriors. To help the artists:

http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html

http://www.maderuelo.com/siglo12/vestimenta/escudo.html

Nacheras

11-03-2005, 13:46

Archbaker unit list:

"I just spent a couple hours compiling information from various Spanish sites. Then I found all the same on Wikipedia in English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
Look at Section three and five. I cannot find similar informaton to chapter five in any other language, including Spanish, so I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it is our best source for now. It is also not particular to Asturian soldiers, but it IS true of Castilla-León and we know that the ruling class of Asturies were Visigoths.

A small summary of the military information:

Peones: Litt. “Peasants”. Levies of either archers or spear/short sword

Royal Knights: Nobles with Visigoth ancestors. Wear gothic armour with “braceplate” (breastplate?) and use lance, javelins, sword and kite-shaped shield. Also used double-axe.

Caballeros Hidalgos: Lesser nobles (Don Quijote was one). Leather armour, javelins, spears, sword and Moorish-style shields.

Caballeros Villanos: Litt. “villains” or “serfs” Non-noble knights. Militia version of the hidalgo.

Generally:
Helmets are Norman-style.
Infantry use short single-bladed swords and cavalry use long double-bladed ones.
Shields are round or kidney-shaped except for royal knights.
Armours are mostly leather reinforced with scales, but maille exists (royal knights and possibly hidalgos should wear it), no horse barding.
The double-headed axe is a 30 cm melee weapon balanced for throwing. I imagine it mostly a footman’s weapon and used like Norse axes, although it has an extra head. Since there will be throwing axes in BI a unit could throw a few before closing in.

The late-period triggered super-cavalry could be these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago

Thoughts:
As far as I can see, Asturia should have weaker, but more flexible heavy cavalry than the Franks. I think that is enough to give the faction something to hang its hat on on the military side of things. All or most infantry troops should be either levies or foot knights, and I think I would give infantry levies a bonus in mountains if possible."

Asturian units

- Milites palatii: bodyguard to the king and royal house princes and famous noble generals (magnates) usualy related to royal line. Equal to “royal knights”. Heavy cavalry well armoured (mail coat, etc). Excellent morale and stamina. Very, very expensive if the tech tree allows its recruitment

- Nobiliores: noble cavalry. Medium cavalry very similar to andalusian cavalry. Lance, sword or mace and adarga (triangular shield). Medium armoured (mail coat). Able to front combat spearmen if they are not well armoured. Their success usually relies on charge-flee-charge tactic. Quite expensive.

- Infanzones (I think more accurate than "hidalgos", that is a later name): light cavalry of less-noblemen. Short stirrups and great manouverability. The backbone of Spanish Christian cavalry. Fast but not well armoured. Lance and shield. I really doubt if they were or not javelins. They should not be very expensive. Good for rear attack, harass bowmen and skirmishers or pursue fleeing enemies. Not suitable for charge a line or melée.

- Vilanii equites: light cavalry of not-noblemen. Their mainly weapon is the javelin, and they wear a sword. Ancestors of “Spanish jinetes” of MTW. Not armoured, very fast. Weak in hand-to-hand combat even with weakest units, but you can give them a decent plus for charge. I´m not sure if they wear sield. Short stirrups. Cheap.

- Pedones or Peones: Line spearmen infantry. Vassals and noble serfs recruited by feudal debts. Leather helmet, wood shield, and leather coat. The mail coat were not usual to infantry. Not good morale nor good stamina. Pedones are not good line infantry, but quite cheap due to they are forced recruitment. Able to stop medium or light cavalry. insufficient for the rest. An asturican general can only trust in them if they are overnumbered.

- Urban militia spearmen: Line spearmen recruited from local councils. Better experience, morale and stamina than pedones. Very similar, but with longer spears and could be slightly better armoured. They should result more expensive and later to recruit in tech tree, due to they only exists at important towns.

- Bowmen: I only know their existence. Slingers: I only know their existence. I have no details for moment, but you can assume that Bowmen and slingers are non armoured, fast, not good morale, cheap units.

With no clear historical base, I think could be interesting to reflect the existence of mountain men units in north of Spain serving at Christian armies, mainly at the beginning of the game. Basque warriors and/or Asturian mountain tribesmen can be added as swordmen or light fast spearmen, with no armour and little or not shield, but good morale and excellent stamina. And not very expensive. Units that will be obsolete along the game due to their lack of armour and discipline, but that can provide asturian player of good cheap infantry at the beggining.

Asturians used rams and catapults, but less quality than andalusians
Ships similar to Frankish.

Asturians, later leonese and Castilian, used to make fast raid expeditions, copied to Moorish, called “algarada”, with mainly, if not total cavalry armies. They attacked by surprise border or even inner andalusian towns in order to sack them and sometimes destroy its buildings.

Asturian army, except for light cavalry, is inferior to andalusian army in composition and discipline, mainly at beginning of game. So, to balance it (in other words, to avoid andalusians kickass christians in first 10 years), you must remember that christian general were weak about management, but strenght in command (and ambush or sight line) and usually in loyalty. And you should improve the morale of christian troops with the religion or other items, to improve their abilities. Andalusian generals have good management and influence, average loyalty (in fact the civil wars in the caliphate first century allowed christians to survive) and varies in command from low to good command. Except for muyahids, their morale were not usually improved by religious facts or traits.

I have read more about the caliphate and were really a negros personal gard to the calipha. Were few and only to the serf of the caliph, so I think they´ll be similar as “varangian gard” of MTW: expensive, good morale and stamina, swordmen and later in tech tree.

Ranika

11-03-2005, 18:46

I'll add that Britons had at one time fled to Asturia from the Saxons, and were given lands in the mountains in the region; if you do have an Asturian 'hillmen' unit, perhaps it should appear to have slightly Brythonic weapons (long shields or short tapering swords of some sort, or maybe just Asturian stuff with a few javelins, fighting in a manner not very far removed from Romano-British). It's just a thought.

Nacheras

11-04-2005, 00:57

Briton influence were not important in north spanish history, but certainly could have the "mountain men" similar caracteristics to galic warriors, due to they are descendent of pre-roman iberic population.

Nacheras

11-04-2005, 01:15

Btw, the unit I called "urban militia spearmen" has a latin and more accurate name. You can call it "concilium militia" (militians of local town councils).

Archbaker

11-04-2005, 09:21

Listen to what Nacheras says. He definately knows a lot more than I.

Nacheras

11-04-2005, 19:39

You done well, Archbaker, but I have access to original spanish history books! ~;)

Nacheras

11-07-2005, 00:48

New addenda: the unit I called "milites palatii" is named also as "magnates palatii" due to it was composed by high nobles (magnates) and their selected bodyguards (usually famous and toughted warriors). If you like more that name you can use it. The artist can do their best with them, due to they are the idealistic pre-knightly heavy cavalry, quite similar to frankish noble heavy cavalry, but remember that Asturias is a poor kingdom compared to frankish empire or andalusian caliphate, so it must be a very expensive unit to reflect the real lack of that kind of units in asturian armies (usually only the king and princes escort, if the kingdom grows, could represent the raise of high nobility, as in other parts of Europe).

Some links of spanish warriors images and other medieval images. I´m afraid of mostly are later of IX century, but could be they help you:

http://leodegundia.blogspot.com/2005/08/caballeros-medievales_17.html

http://www.monografias.com/trabajos/cabamedieval/cabamedieval.shtml

http://www.historiaviva.org/es/medieval.shtml

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cantigas/

http://sepiensa.org.mx/contenidos/historia_mundo/media/cultura/libros_2.htm

http://www.planetadirecto.com/FichaProducto.aspx?IdPack=4&IdPildora=58&NumSeccion=5&IdSeccion=48&IdTienda=Google_ejercitos

http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/jpg/ALR09016.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/obras/9016.htm&h=400&w=273&sz=50&tbnid=AowG2gwRuzMJ:&tbnh=120&tbnw=81&hl=es&start=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbeato%2Bde%2Bfernando%2BI%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Des%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-39,GGLG:es%26sa%3DN

Not much enought, but I am still searching

Archbaker

11-07-2005, 16:25

hope you understand my english
Perfectly, but if you should ever have trouble I can translate for you. I'll need to get my internet connection at home before I can translate big portions of text, though, as I can't do that without having references and dictionaries ready. I'll be set in a week or so, but I don't think it will be necessary, anyway.

Briton influence were not important in north spanish history, but certainly could have the "mountain men" similar caracteristics to galic warriors, due to they are descendent of pre-roman iberic population
What do you think of the Visigothic throwing axe-men? Fact or fiction?

Nacheras

11-07-2005, 17:33

1) Thank you for your translating offer.

2) I´m not a military history expert, but at the texts I have checked, I have never heard anything about gothic axemen. Goths were basically lancers and swordmen, and also somewhat archers, slingers and had some cavalry.
I think that surely were not axe-throwers, anyway. That was a typically frankish weapon.

Nacheras

11-23-2005, 15:28

Images of navarre or basque warriors and others about Navarra

http://www.conelarte.com/Jose_Lacambra/

http://galeon.hispavista.com/nabarra//amigos414597.html

http://usuarios.lycos.es/deivichs/resume.html

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/berenguela/berenguela_compromiso5.htm

http://www.brionesmedieval.com/presentacion.htm

Nacheras

11-25-2005, 15:15

http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/tizona-cid-sword.htm

http://www.llanes.as/guia/cova/cov06.htm

http://www.lepanto.com.br/Imagens1/DPelayo1.jpg

http://www.blasoneshispanos.com/Ordenes/OrdenesMilitares/OmMilitares.htm

http://www.finns-books.com/pelapic1.htm

http://www.finns-books.com/pelapic3.htm

http://www.finns-books.com/pelapic4.htm

http://usuarios.lycos.es/victoriano/asturias.htm

http://www.legadoandalusi.com/legado/contenido/rutas/personajes/4855.htm

http://www.astourias.com/gijon.html

http://www.el-caminoreal.com/covadonga/covadonga8.htm

http://perso.wanadoo.es/hinojosadeduero/carpio/images/roncesvsigloxv.jpg

http://web.jet.es/altor/

Nacheras

11-26-2005, 11:26

Russian page with images

http://steppe.hobi.ru/materials/mini-00.shtml

Nacheras

11-26-2005, 11:30

German page with images

http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/hs/hs-online.htm

Nacheras

11-28-2005, 13:14

Andalusian units and buildings images

http://home.tiscali.dk/8x095009/Kalifatet.htm

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/bibliotecavirtualandalucia/aprende/historia.cmd?tema=califatoomeya

http://www.fortunecity.es/imaginapoder/artes/154/islam/musulma2.html

http://www.arqueocordoba.com/visitas/2visitas/2visita-mezaljama/mezaljama-fachadaalmanzor.htm

http://canales.larioja.com/cultura/arte/13a.jpg

http://www.talleraquitania.com/pinturas/islamico/is3.htm

http://www.educared.net/concurso/531/arabes.htm

http://www.oceansbridge.com/art/customer/genre.php?cat=3046&maincat=Orientalism

http://www.transportmodels.co.uk/images/6055.jpg

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/arabdaggersswords.jpg

http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_soldiers/near_east/two_arab_warriors_on_camel.htm

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/0711/armies.htm

http://www.artehistoria.com/frames.htm?http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/contextos/817.htm

skeletor

11-29-2005, 13:11

Sweet.. thnx this wil come in handy..

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

12-10-2005, 01:00

anybody into welsh unit appearance? would they look like the anglo-saxons or?

Narakir

12-10-2005, 03:48

Welsh were more like the irish or scots because of celtic culture, I guess.

It's a bit early but it's the only picture of a welsh I've found right now (the guy number 3)
https://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1973/132ng.jpg

http://www.regia.org/warfare/welswar.htm
http://www.regia.org/history/welsh1.htmA good general site about england in this period.

Ranika

12-10-2005, 04:01

The Welsh did not look like the Irish/Scots. I'll explain once more for the latecomers. The Gaelic culture is more based upon Iberian influences than Celtic; Gaels had La Tene Celtic weapons and such, but were culturally, linguistically, and in numerous minor details were based on ancient Iberians who invaded the island after the Celts, mixed with the natives and Celts, and formed their own culture. The inhabitants of Ireland were only partly Celtic. The Welsh, by comparison, were culturally descended from Britons, and were heavily affected by Romans. Their language comes from a completely different set of Celtic languages (P-Celtic, not Q-Celtic, like Gaelic languages). Their army had absorbed copious amounts of Saxon influences at different times, and they had never really looked like the Gaels anyway, even before the Saxons. The only place the Welsh ever looked like 'Irish' was Dyfedd, and even that was over a fairly short period, and only because Irish had conquered the region and Gaels were the ruling class.

The picture posted here is mostly out of period or inappropriate. Number 3, the 'tribal warrior' would be alright in Dyfedd (again, due to Gaelic influences that inspired their style of clothing, since they had been ruled by Gaels), but even most of them by this point had heavy Saxon influences and wore trousers. Other Welsh looked more like Anglo-Saxons; they wore trousers, shorter shirts, etc.

Meneldil

12-10-2005, 09:36

The Gaelic culture is more based upon Iberian influences than Celtic; Gaels had La Tene Celtic weapons and such, but were culturally, linguistically, and in numerous minor details were based on ancient Iberians who invaded the island after the Celts, mixed with the natives and Celts, and formed their own culture. The inhabitants of Ireland were only partly Celtic. The Welsh, by comparison, were culturally descended from Britons, and were heavily affected by Romans. Their language comes from a completely different set of Celtic languages (P-Celtic, not Q-Celtic, like Gaelic languages). Their army had absorbed copious amounts of Saxon influences at different times, and they had never really looked like the Gaels anyway, even before the Saxons. The only place the Welsh ever looked like 'Irish' was Dyfedd, and even that was over a fairly short period, and only because Irish had conquered the region and Gaels were the ruling class.

Well, I did not even know that Iberian invaded Britain ~:eek:

Thanks for the info. One other question though : are Viking Invasion welsh accurate ? Or just a bunch a made up unit ? We don't have any source for the Welsh units, and all I could find was info that are either too early or too late for the mod.

Ranika

12-10-2005, 10:06

Well, I did not even know that Iberian invaded Britain ~:eek:

Thanks for the info. One other question though : are Viking Invasion welsh accurate ? Or just a bunch a made up unit ? We don't have any source for the Welsh units, and all I could find was info that are either too early or too late for the mod.

Ireland is not Britain, though the British traded tin with Iberians (as well as Carthage). The difference is large. Iberians invaded Ireland after Belgae and Britons did; probably around the same time as Aquitanian Gauls. But much about Gaelic culture is clearly from Iberian sources; the language, first, is from an Iberian language spoken in Galaecia (a form of Q-Celtic); it is not from the language of Gaul as some often say (Gaul spoke a form of Continental Celtic, a series of Celtic languages that used the letter K). Even the earliest predecessor to Ogham is found in Galaecia. Clothing is based on Iberians (Gaels did not fight shirtless; in fact, the lowest troops were more clothed than higher soldiers; levies wore trousers and thigh-length shirts, soldiers wore knee-length shirts with no trousers). The fact that higher class members of society did NOT wear trousers is very odd compared to more common Celts (who all wore trousers). Much of their weapon design and armor was influenced by Iberian weapons, or Hallstatt era Celtic weapons (which were used in Galaecia, in Iberia still). Gaels also fought with axes as their main weapon, which isn't at all Celtic (Hallstatt era Celts used axes, but La Tene Celts did not; the only 'Celts' that still did after about 400 BC at latest were the most isolated demi-Celtic peoples, such as Rhaetians, some of the more isolated members of the Aquitannians, Caledonians, and Galaecians/Goidils). Gaelic culture is the unique fusion of La Tene Celts who invaded before Iberians, along with Hallstatt Celtic Galaecian Iberians, non-Celtic Iberians, and the pre-Celtic/pre-Iberian natives. Tacitus believed Iberians invaded Britain and created the Silures tribe, but there's little proof of that aside that they probably looked similar in skintone/hair color.

Welsh vary a bit by region. However; longbows existed and were in use (longbows killed kings of Mercia, Northumbria, as well as Cymric (Welsh) princes). The favored weapon was a spear. Axes were adopted from Saxons and Gaels that raided. Wealthier soldiers may use Welsh swords inspired by Roman spatha and Saxon weapons. Shortbows were also used. Some Irish records included hiring Welsh horsemen who used shortbows on horseback (though being 'genuine' horse archers is questionable). Probably a mixture of spearmen (including perhaps some with pikes or long two-handed spears), archers, augmented by some cavalry (including probably some heavy cavalry, if only as general's guards), swordsmen, and axemen. Armor would probably be a mix of padding, leather jackets, scale armor, and mail for the wealthiest. Some isolated regions of Wales probably produced older style 'Celtic' warriors, though even they likely had an amount of Roman, Saxon, or Gaelic influence in clothing or armament. Things like hillmen wouldn't be out of line, probably; skirmishers or archers who could melee alright (for a unit of that type), but poorly armored.

ScionTheWorm

12-10-2005, 12:56

oh that's great information ranika. as always

btw I've taken a halt on gaels due to a break as well as skinning the less requiring but not as exciting saxons.

but when did iberians invade ireland?

Ranika

12-10-2005, 13:44

Between 400 - 100 BC was the bulk of invasion; I'd actually figure the real 'invasion' would have ended by 200 BC, but there were likely refugees afterward who followed the paths of earlier Iberians fleeing the Romans. After 200 BC, I'd suspect it was more a matter of assimilating and conquering neighbors. There were Punic tablets found in Ireland, and they traded with Carthage, and Carthage potentially knew of the island through Iberian relations. Relations with Celts were probably better than with the natives; the ruling aristocracy of Ireland was probably composed of Celts, Iberians, and their descendants (as the intermarriage and mixing of the two led to the creation of what is the Gaelic culture). This was also probably the earliest genesis of Gaelic clothing laws. I'll explain;

Low Class
Slaves, the poor freemen, and indentured servants wore thigh-length shirts, tight trousers (which could be pulled to the knee and worn as shorts), and uncolored mantles. In battle, this was also the standard dress of this class in most places, as they made up the levies and lightest soldiers (though in parts of Munster this was laxed, so they were allowed to dress as normal soldiers in battle). The most important levies were afforded padded coats (usually spearmen or pikemen) like professional soldiers. As an aside militarily, this class was also the only one considered for archers in this period. It was considered unfitting of a soldier to be an archer in Gaelic society (though they did hire foreigners sometimes, and eventually adopted the Welsh longbow in Ulster and Meath).

Middle Class
Dedicated members of the military, businessmen, professional laborers and craftsmen, assistants of the college educated (doctors/priests/etc.), and so on. They wore a knee-length shirt called a leine (usually off-white, the wealthier dyed these shirts a yellow-gold with saffron). It was a loose garment, fastened with a belt. They also wore a multicolored shoulder cloak (fastened at the right shoulder) with plaid to show off their social class. The higher class, the more colors on the cloak. Some wore longer cloaks, but in battle, this class still wore short shoulder cloaks to seperate them from the others in battle. In many places, Gaels of this class were also required to carry a dagger at all times, if not a sword or axe.

Upper Class
Arras (nobles/aristocracy), their retainers, judges, champions of sports or warfare, wealthy businessmen, the well-educated, and similar, were allowed to wear leine like the middle class, but also wore robes, in both battle and in freetime, of varying lengths. They would be decorated with elaborate borders, elegant plaid or checker designs, or, in the most expensive cases, elaborate embroidery of religious or historic scenes and stories (for example, St. Ninnian had a robe decorated with an elaborate depiction of the Assumption of Mary, made for him by a convert in Connacht). These robes were little more than elongated leine; just as loose, fastened around the waist with a similar belt, simply more elegant and finer made. They always wore a sword or other weapon as a sign of their dedication to defend their clan, as their duty as the highest ranking members of it (in fact, the higher one's position in society, the more harshly punished they were for infractions of the law (since they were meant to be examples of lawful behavior). They also wore cloaks, but more often longer (some wore full length but narrow cloaks in battle). Kings and other higher aristocracy often wore crowns, but the preferred metals were iron, copper, and silver (gold was mostly seen as gaudy for aristocracy to wear).

All classes removed their body hair as a matter of cleanliness, and bathed daily with soap. Facial hair was allowed, but mostly mustaches were preferred (beards were seen as too thick and dirty by many, but if well kept, they were seen as stately and a sign of elegance or gentlemanly status). Hair was washed and usually braided multiple times, laid in rows (like corn rows), or other elaborate or complicated hairstyles (hair was very important to the Gaels), and almost always kept at least shoulder length.

The clothing worn is mostly of Iberian extraction, but much of the decoration is Celtic (such as the elaborate plaids, or the actual designs they decorated with), and probably a number of things about hair style. Soap was a Celtic invention, but spread over a pretty wide area.

ScionTheWorm

12-12-2005, 10:14

Anybody got knowledge about Asturians? Helmets, clothes, weapons, all in all something more (and more accurate) information about them than the Osprey pics bring

Nacheras

12-12-2005, 10:34

christian and moorish swords (from the spanish army museum of Madrid)

http://usuarios.lycos.es/historiador1969/espadaj1.htm

http://usuarios.lycos.es/historiador1969/estoque.htm

Supposed sword "tizona" of el Cid

http://www.tabladeflandes.com/cid/cid.htm

Agraes

12-12-2005, 10:36

Here some units from our unit list : http://s10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War/index.php?showtopic=261
concerning the Britons/Welsh. Some of them can fit for AOVAF too, Ranika will correct me if needed. I put also some of our 'AoR' units too :

Marchogluoedd (Light cavalry)
Britain's wide variety of landscapes meant certain kingdoms, where the land was flatter and more horse-friendly, employed very cavalry oriented armies; the Marchogluoedd were the fast agile scouts of these armies. Riding the fastest horses their land could muster, these lightly armed and lightly armoured warriors would rush ahead of the main host peppering the enemies with javelins and making careful observations and reporting enemy positions to their commanders. These scouts wore no armour and carried no weapons apart from their javelins, which could of course act as improvised spears, as such they sould be kept as far away from combat as possible.

Marca Llydaw (Llydaw cavalry) (need to control Brittany)
The Britons in Brittany, or Llydaw as it was also known, were famed horsemen and recruited powerful cavalry that were pivotal in the numerous Breton victories over the Franks. The warriors of Llydaw were known for their distinctive black shields and their cavalry for their destructive hit and run javelin attacks. The Llydaw cavalry wore white cloaks and equipped their famous black round shield as well as javelins and a sword, unfortunately for any budding emporer they could only be recruited in Brittany, meaning they must be conquered and subdued before joining any foreign nation's army, a tough task indeed.
Spangelhem, white cloack, black round shield, javelins, sword.

Teulu
Literally meaning “family”, the Teulu were the professional noble bodyguards of individual princes and chieftains. Although cavalry are generally not best suited to the rough hilly and mountainous terrain of Britain, the Teulu often rode into battle. Being of the nobility, the Teulu could afford the best of military equipment and were very well armed by Celtic standards: they wore chain or scale mail and helmets, and carried a shield and a lance, making them a pivotal force on the battlefield.

Strong charge
Very good Attack
Good Morale
Armoured
(Should be pretty expensive)

Rherel (Heavy spearmen)
The spear was a very popular weapon in Britain, even with those who could afford swords instead. The well equiped retainers of the noble class carried both sword and spear into battle making them exceptionally versatile and a challenging adversary. The Rherel were the personal body guard of nobles or lesser nobles themselves, their elite rank and high status being identified by their red cloaks. Their employers wealth also meant they could afford the very best scale or chain mail armour available, on top of which they carried a round shield and wore a helmet. Being so heavily armed made this infantry unit a very deadly and unstoppable force in combat.

Bonheddwyr
The Bonheddwyr were free nobles, the elite foot soldiers of a Chieftain’s armies. Before a battle these champions would often walk forward in front of their army insulting, taunting and challenging their opposition (much to the amusement of their fellows), and be accompanied by shouting and jeering from the lower ranking men, and the din of their war trumpets. The Bonheddwr were lightly armoured, and the individual carried a spear, a small round shield and several javelins into battle.

40 man unit
fast
strong charge
very good attack
good defence
armoured
good morale

Bêrfelawre Merionydd (Merionydd long spearmen)
The spear was the weapon of choice in Wales, with those from the North being particularly skilled in its use. The men of the Merionydd area of Gwynedd were renowned throughout for their superb ability with the spear. The general consensus amongst the Welsh was: “the longer the spear the better”, and as such the men of Merionydd carried spears as long as pikes. As well as their pikes, they had small round shields and fought in Phalanx-like formations.

60 man unit (best in deep formations etc.),
fast,
good defence
weak attack,
no armour
only available in Gwynydd

Arwrweision
Literally mean ‘brave men’, the Arwrweision are the veterans of numerous battles, they are the non-noble elite of a British Chieftain’s army. It was considered an honour amongst Britons to be drafted into military service, so all able-bodied men had a weapon and were up for a fight. Carrying similar equipment to their fellow peasants, swords, bows and shields, the defining characteristic of the Arwrweision is that, although they share their comrade’s eagerness for battle, they don’t share their eagerness to run away.

60 man unit
fast
strong charge
good attack
no armour
very good morale

Aulue (Town Militia)
It was a legal obligation for all men over a certain age to fight when required in Briton kingdoms, indeed most, if not all, saw it as a great privilage and were eager for battle. Many kept their own weapons so men could be rapidly form militia units (or Aulue) when their kingdom needed their service. They often fought surprisingly well, but were quick to turn tail and run if things were going badly. Briton militia units were neither well nor badly equipped and could hold their own in a fight, but a wise commander will note their limitations and not commit them against heavily armed elite troops.

Galweddyl Aulue (Gaelic levies)
need to control Dyfed, Ceredigion, Ynis Mona, Ireland, Galwyddel, Gwynedd or others regions of Britain west coast.
The close proximity of Ireland to Britain has led to large amounts of cultural and population exchanges across the Irish Sea. The stories of Bran, son of Llyr god of the sea, and his sister's marriage to the king of Ireland and the war between the Britons and Irish that insued as a result is an example of the two nations' close cultural bond. Many Britons settled in Ireland, indeed St. Patrick is considered to be British, and many from Ireland came to settle in western Britain. This Irish communities would set up militia akin to those of their homeland to defend themselves, and eventually came to fight for their British kings.

Milwre
'Soldiers'
Despite large numbers being levies, portions of the armies of dark age Britain were professional soldiers. Since most equipment was paid for by the soldier out of his own pocket, cheap easy to maintain, but effective weapons were the order of the day and the cudgel employed by the Milwre was one such weapon. Armed with their clubs, the milwre could do a lot of damage. Their leather helms, round shields and cuirasses afforded them protection as well, making them a very effective and potentially devastating force in the hands of a good general.

Bêrfelawre (Long spearmen)
The Britons were particularly proficient in the use of the spear and those who were particularly skilled generally preferred spears of the longer variety. The tactics of these soldiers were similar to the phalanxes of Macedonia or the pike regiments of the Renaissance, tactics very effective against cavalry. The Bêrfelawre were generally part-time soldiers and due to the cumbersome nature of their weapons, their equipment was fairly basic: light armour, if any at all, and a small round shield.

Campwyrau (Champions)
The Campwyrau were the champions of the Britons' armies. Although not always nobles, they were professional soldiers who, through their brave deeds on the field of battle, earned prestige, fame and wealth. This meant they were given or could afford state of the art weapons and armour. Expensive swords, intricately made and strong armour and their all round experience and ferocity made the Campwyrau dangerous opponents; more than a match for most other infantry and even cavalry. Any British general can rest assured that his Campwyrau will make a good accounting of themselves, and not to flee at the first sign of danger.

Rherel Manau (Heavy Manx Spearmen)
The Isle of Man is a tiny Island that lies in a Strategic position in the middle of the Irish Sea, therefore All manner of peoples look at it with hunger. This could be seen as a downfall or a reason to flee yet Mannanan and his heirs re-worked the army, producing armoured spearmen to fend off the raiders that come from Ireland, Rheged and and Gwynedd.
These men are perfectly equipped to fight in the hills of Mann. Disciplined, well armoured yet agile, the Manx Spearmen make a living out of fighting for their existence. They are recruited from the nobles or families with enought money to buy the Chainmail and heavy spears they take into battle.

Galwyddel nobles axemen*
Need to control Galwyddel.
Nobles from this region used two-handed wood axes sometimes, though they'd be decorated a bit.
Two-handed wood axes, chain mail, helmet.

Kledlwta
'Gray swords'
Need to control Alcluyd.
Strathclyders who used a longsword in two-hands would be good here; not greatswordsmen, but Strathclyders sometimes used swords with elongated grips.
Sword, round shield on the back, leather cuirass, spangelhelm.

Rhyfelwyr
"Warrior"
Constant in fighting between the petty kingdoms of post-Roman Britain and skirmishes with the English led to the Britons becoming accustomed to war, they became a “jack of all trades”, perfectly suited to irregular warfare. Carrying a powerful bow, that could pin a horseman’s leg to his horse, a large sword and a small round shield, the prominent tactics of the Britons were to ambush the enemy, pepper them with arrows and then charge in for the kill.

60 man unit
fast
strong charge
good attack
no armour
poor morale

Ardu (Levies)

Fwnmilwre (Slingers)
The sling is one of the oldest and simplest weapons there is and was a favourite of the pre-Roman Britons. In the times of Arthur the bow was becoming more popular, but due to the simplicity of its construction and use, and the huge availability of ammunition, the sling was still widely used. In many ways a sling could out perform a bow and commanders would be foolish to ingore their usefullness on the battlefield. Other than their slings, the fwnmilwre (slingers) were lightly armed and would not last long in close combat.

Helwyr
"Huntsmen"
The Welsh people were keen huntsmen and used the hunt to practice the skills needed in battle. There are numerous Welsh stories and poems linked with their passion for hunting, most notably the tale of Prince Llewelyn and his greyhound Gellert. To be a good huntsman meant a men could command a powerful role in the royal courts and society in general, and could become very rich. The Helwyr equipped powerful bows, enabling them to kill the toughest of quarry, but very little close combat weaponry, thus should be kept out of melees.

60 man unit
Very Fast
Very good missile attack/ very accurate
Poor in close combat
Skirmishers
No armour

Among them I think you can use some of our models : Awrweision, Helwyr, Marchogluoedd, Ardu for those that are done so far.
Others models done, like Marchomawr/Teulu, Campwyrau or Rherel have a look too 'Roman' for AOVAF, but the units can fit.

Just check those threads for screenshots :
http://s10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War/index.php?showtopic=551
http://s10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War/index.php?showtopic=287

ScionTheWorm

12-12-2005, 10:54

I think we're going to make our own, I've already started

Agraes

12-12-2005, 15:43

Yep, but just tell me if you are interested by some of ours. At least those ideas can help :san_rolleyes:

Nacheras

12-13-2005, 16:37

ASTURIAN ARMY

Abstract of my proposal of Asturias army.

T: type; N: number; A: attack; C: charge; M: missile; D: defence; W: weapon; H: helmet; Ar: armour; S: shield; Mo: morale; St: stamina; Co: cost.

To see shield forms:
http://www.maderuelo.com/siglo12/vestimenta/escudo.html
almendrado: almond-sheeped; adarga: round

Magnates palatii: T: heavy cavalry (royal bodyguard) N: 12-18, A: strong; C: very strong, D: good; W: spear, sword or axe, H: iron northern-style. Ar: mail coat, S: almond, painted, Mo: excellent, St: good, Co: non-recruitable/very expensive.
Nobiliores: T: medium cavalry, N: 24, A: good; C: strong, D: good, W: spear, sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S:almond, painted, Mo: very good, St: good, Co: expensive.
Infanzones: T: light cavalry, N: 40, A: average; C: good, D: average, W: spear, sword, H: leather, Ar: leather or mail coat, S: round, plain, Mo: good, St: good, Co: average.
image of infanzon:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo11_ejercitohispano.html
Vilanii equites: T: missile cavalry, N: 40, A: weak, C: average, M: good, D: weak, W: javelin, sword, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: round, Mo: good, St: good, Co: cheap (for cavalry).
Pedones: T: spear infantry, N: 120, A: average, C: weak, D: good, W: spear, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: almond, plain, Mo: average, St: average, Co: cheap. Can make shield wall
picture of cristian pedon
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/h_media_siglo12_sancho3.html
Concilium militia: T: spear infantry, N: 80, A: good, C: average, D: good, W: spear, H: leather or iron, Ar: mail coat, S: round, plain, Mo: good, St: average, Co: quite expensive. Can make shield wall
image of a concilium militia:
http://www.talleraquitania.com/images/images_g/288em.jpg
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo9_ejercitohispano.html
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_10_ejercitohispano.html
Asturianii montanii: T: swordmen infantry, N: 80, A: good, C: strong, D: weak, W: sword, H: no, Ar: no, S: round, Mo: very good, St: excellent, Co: quite cheap. Battle cry
Vascones tribus: T: missile infantry, N: 80, A: good, C: strong, M: good, D: good, W: javelin, sword, H: leather, Ar: leather/no, S: Oval, painted (with tribal-celtic signs) Mo: excellent, St: excellent, Co: average. Battle cry
Sagitarii: T: bowmen infantry, N: 80, A: weak, C: average, M: average, D: weak, W: Frankish Bow, short sword, H: No, Ar: No, S: No, Mo: weak, St: average, Co: quite cheap.
Pastores: T: slinger infantry, N: 80, A: average, C: average, M: good, D: weak, W: sling, stick, H: No, Ar: No, S: No, Mo: average, St: good, Co: cheap.

Asturianii and vascones can be recruited as mercenaries (Asturianii at Gallecia and Legio-Asturias, Vascones at Castilla and Navarra). As well as pastores or vilanii equites at all provinces.
Pastores are slinger shepherds recruited for war, so their appearance should be similar to any sheep shepherd.

I only found this page about vascones appearance
http://galeon.hispavista.com/nabarra//amigos414597.html
IMO they must be something similar to scutarii falcata of RTR, but dressed in fashion of IX century, not in fashion of III BC century.

Nacheras

12-13-2005, 18:34

ANDALUSIAN ARMY

My proposal for andalusian army.

T: type; N: number; A: attack; C: charge; M: missile; D: defence; W: weapon; H: helmet; Ar: armour; S: shield; Mo: morale; St: stamina; Co: cost.

Arab noble cavalry: T: heavy cavalry (royal bodyguard), N: 20, A: good, C: very good, D: very good, W: spear, curved sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S: oval, Mo: excellent, St: good, Co: very expensive.
Arab light cavalry: T: light missile cavalry, N: 40, A: average, C: good, M: average, D: average, W: arab bow, curved sword, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: round, Mo: good, St: good. Cost: expensive.
Andalusian cavalry: T: medium cavalry, N: 40, A: good, C: very good, D: good, W: spear, curved sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S: round, Mo: good, St: average, Cost: expensive.
Berber cavalry: T: missile cavalry, N: 60, A: average, C: good, M: excellent, D: average/weak, W: javelin, sabre, H: no, Ar: no/leather, S: oval or bilobed, Mo: good, St: excellent. Co: average
Image of berber cavalry:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_12_13_ejercitohispano.html
Negros: T: heavy Sudanese swordmen (personal guard of calipha), N: 60, A: very strong, C: strong, D: strong, W: curved sword, H: iron, Ar: no, S: no/bilobed, Mo: excellent, St: excellent, Co: very expensive
Mamaliks (slave professional warriors): T: heavy slavic spearmen, N: 80, A: strong, C: good, D: strong, W: spear, sword, H: iron, Ar: mailcoat, S: round, Mo: excellent, St: good, Co: expensive.
Image similar to mamaliks:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/guerra_media_siglo8.html
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo12_13_evolucionarmas.html (coloured paint)
Murtazika: T: heavy berber spearmen, N: 80, A: good, C: good, D: very good, W: spear, sword. H: leather, Ar: leather, S: bilobed, Mo: good, St: good, Co: quite expensive.
Muttawia: T: light berber infantry, N: 120, A: weak, C: average, M: good, D: average, W: javelin, spear, H: no, Ar: no, S: bilobed, Mo: average, St: good, Co: cheap.
Muyahids (jihad warriors): T: swordmen infantry, N: 80, A: good, C: strong, D: average, W: sword, H: leather/no, Ar: no, S: oval/bilobed, Mo: very good, St: very good, Co: average. Religious boost morale when combat christian or pagan
Rigal (andalusian line infantry): T: medium spearmen, N: 80, A: good, C: average, M: good, D: very good, W: javelin, spear, sword, H: leather/iron, Ar: mailcoat, S: round, Mo: good, St: average, Co: a bit expensive. Can make shield wall
Image of andalusian rigal:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo11_evolucionarmas.html
Rabita (frontier levy troops): T: light infantry, N: 120, A: average, C: average, D: good, W: spear, sword, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: round, Mo: average, St: average, Co: average
Image of rabita:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo10_evolucionarmas.html
Rumat al-sinniya: T: Bowmen infantry, N: 80, A: weak, C: average, M: good, D: weak, W: Frankish bow, short sword, H: leather, Ar: no, S: oval, Mo: average, St: good. Co: cheap/average

Cavalry spear or lance: rumh
Heavy spear: qanah
Mail coat: mudarra
Round shield: turs
Oval shield: daraka
Javelin: mazarik
Catapult: arrada
Heavy Onager: Manchaniq.

Rodion Romanovich

12-13-2005, 19:30

Good info Nacheras!

skeletor

12-13-2005, 20:47

Very nice... I am working with that part of the world at the moment, so this is helpful..

-Skel-

Nacheras

12-13-2005, 23:36

Skeleton, in this interesting page
http://www.maderuelo.com/siglo12/vestimenta/escudo.html

there are some indications that I will explain you in order to make a good images:

- almonded shields are caracteristic of heavy shock christian cavalry.

- round shields (adarga) were common in Iberican peninsula at both sides, while at Europe usually were related to muslims or pagan.

- At the centre of the shield were the "bloca" or umbo. At the end of the page you have images of soma "bloca" types: usually the decorated were for arab and andalusian units, the samples were for christian units. The berbers usually didn´t use "bloca"

- muslim units (except berbers) decorate their shields with geometric figures. Christian uses plain shields, except for magnates palatii or nobiliores, that painted some motions, usually crosses, and later, animals that represented the noble family or clan totem (horses, dragons, eagles, etc). Asturianii and vascones used celtic simbols like gammed cross or head of animals.

- the image of item "adarga con penachos" were very common, specially in infantry of both sides.

- almonded shields were used by christian heavy cavalry and pedones. Were usually convex, no painted and with a sample bloca. The image of "almendrado con arista central" is typically of spanish shields of XII century.

- the image of "adarga blocada con tachones" were very common between andalusian troops.

- "adarga con tachones" for light cavalry of both sides.

- Andalusian army is more assorted. Generally, you can assume that arabs are very similar to Abassid caliphal troops, berbers are very simple dressed, with poor or not armour, and andalusians are richly dressed, with more details, and a fashion very similar to their north christian opponents.

More images of muslim and christian warriors in Spain
http://www.geocities.com/iblbo/archivo/cronicastilla/laticas1.htm

Nacheras

12-14-2005, 23:58

After many doubts, I suggest, with no big emphasis, a new unit for asturian army:

fideles nobiliores T: Heavy spearmen, N: 60, A: very good, C: good, D: strong, W: spear, sword, H: iron, Ar: mailcoat, S: almonded, Mo: Very good, St: good, Co: expensive/very expensive.

This unit is equal to "dismounted nobles", represent the personal infantry guard of nobles and fill the gap caused in the asturian army due to its lack of heavy reliable infantry. Fideles nobiliores were the heirs of gardingii or bucelarii of germans and later romans: a personal warband loyal to a lord or noble. In other words, the best infantrymen avalaible, the hard nucleus of a warrior line and rare and unusual (no more than 1 unit in an average army, thats because they shuold be expensive in recruit and manteinance).

Here you have some images:
http://www.maderuelo.com/historia_y_arte/historia/g_media_siglo12_13_evolucionarmas.html (black and white image)
http://www.maderuelo.com/siglo12/vestimenta/vestido_guerrero.html

The problem is that this type of heavily armoured men appears in fact at end of XI century. In other words, you must to force its earlier apparition 2 or 3 centuries ago, and that is anti-historic.

Its your choose if him is included at the game or not (another option could be demand a very advanced teach tree to allow his recruit... I don´t know).

I know could be is not historically exact, but... is so nice... :san_laugh: :san_rolleyes:

ScionTheWorm

12-15-2005, 08:15

yeah he really is nice (2nd pic) ~:pimp:

Csatadi

01-15-2006, 11:52

Pecheneg units

Pechenegs are a very important steppen people even if they are rebels. They can be also mercenaries between the Khazars, Rus and the Carpathian basin.

Units:
Pecheneg Horse Archers: armed with bow and mace (!). Bay (brown with black mare) horses.
Pecheneg Lancers: leather armour, bow, lance. Grey horses.
Pecheneg General: heavy armoured, bow, sabre. White horses.

Is it possible to plan the arrive of certain armies in determined time, location, and with unit types?
And/or is it possible to determine the frequency of rebels in certain provinces?

Rodion Romanovich

01-15-2006, 13:50

It's possible to determine frequency but it affects all provinces. Time can't be affected at all, so it's inevitable that in the early game rebels are tough but later they get easier for the player to fight :(. But we can affect rebel appearance by location, at least.

Csatadi

01-15-2006, 18:31

Do you mean there is a code to set the frequency in all the provinces and in every provinces there are others to set separately?
I think it shall be some because in Italy there were only a few rebels while other provinces were rich in rebels.

Rodion Romanovich

01-15-2006, 18:38

Unfortunately not. There's only one frequency and it affects all provinces, and there are no possibilities of setting the frequency different in different provinces.

The thing we can affect is base unrest in the settlement, so we can make the civil revolts (the ones when you lose the settlement) and riots have different chances in different settlements. But frequency of brigands and similar can't be affected.

King Yngvar

02-20-2006, 00:34

Should Jomsvikings actually be a unit? It's not like there were that many of them...

Maybe as mercenarys? Well I don't know, I'm no researcher. As I said, correct me.

Is it possible to localize units (making them only trainable in one region f. ex)?
If so, why not make jomsvikings only trainable in Jomsborg if there is a plan for such a province. Or they could perhaps be available as mercenaries across the Scandinavian provinces...

blindfaithnogod

03-04-2006, 21:19

hey guys has anyone done anywork on the norman faction? if not i would like a go at them. let me know:2thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich

03-05-2006, 10:20

No, we have only made one skin or so for the normans, and I don't know if we received the model and skin from Scion, who made them. So I think I can say that you're free to start working on the normans, but please wait with any skinning until I've posted their army list in the latest army list thread. :2thumbsup:

blindfaithnogod

03-05-2006, 17:37

cool, can do

Rodion Romanovich

03-05-2006, 17:43

The list has now been updated:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=62017

almazor

03-14-2006, 12:30

this is some almoravides units
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/hobby.one4/Almoravides.htm
if some one want add almoravide faction or add some almoravide unit

edyzmedieval

03-15-2006, 12:25

Maybe we can. I need to talk to Legio about changing/including another faction.

Oh, and nice avatar Legio :thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich

03-15-2006, 12:50

Maybe we can. I need to talk to Legio about changing/including another faction.

Since the almoravids essentially took over the Corduba Emirate/Corduba Caliphate/Al-Andalus, our approach was to make the almoravids a scripted events, so that the Al-Andalus faction later "becomes" the almoravids, unlocking some almoravid units in the late game. But seeing as nobody has a clue about Great Moravia in any way, I might consider switching the Great Moravia faction into something else... But then the Seldjuks or the Fatimids would perhaps be the most logical choice... I don't know really, I'm hoping that it'll be possible to find research stuff about Great Moravia.

Oh, and nice avatar Legio :thumbsup:

Thank you :embarassed: :2thumbsup:

almazor

03-15-2006, 17:41

i think the fatimides would be perhaps the logical choice because they are shiite
and we have two sunnite muslim power(al andalus and abbassides) and the dominance of the fatimides is: north affica, egypt and palestine and syria.and they ruled bagdad i think for 1 year.after the seljuks come they restore the abbassides khilafat.
i think 2 muslim faction is very few for this mod.

Rodion Romanovich

03-15-2006, 18:15

Yes, the rationale behind Great Moravia was that it would be a good buffer against too strong Eastern Frankish expansion. Fatimids sounds good, but it also depends a little on whether we can enough research for them, and there are also a few annoying things about factions that are supposed to appear by script.

almazor

03-15-2006, 20:12

i hope that fatimides appear in this mod,if you wan historic research i will post some web site who are talking about them.i know that the armies fatimides have a lot of berber soldier when the capital was almahdiya(in tunisia) but after when they go to egypt they recruits some armenians mercainaries one of them was the grand vizier 'al afdal al jamali' and some bedouin and arabs.

edyzmedieval

03-19-2006, 11:19

It's a bit difficult. We need to make up our mind. Choose:

-Almoravids
-Great Moravia
-Fatimids

But, for Great Moravia we didn't get much info. And we have the Abbasid Caliphate. Why do we need Fatimids?!

Rodion Romanovich

03-19-2006, 12:12

I vote for the fatimids, they're a good match for the Abbassids and represent how the Abbassids lost power when the big kaliphate split up more. Almoravids would just be the same as Al-Andalus - historically the leader of Al-Andalus invited the Almoravids to invade his domains and then take over the fighting against the Christians in the Iberian peninsula. This invasion took only a few years, so it's basically the same as Al-Andalus being transformed into the Almoravids faction if we just put a small script and an event explaining it, and unlocking berber units for Al-Andalus after a few years of economical penalties when the "invasion" happens. With fatimids we'd get a faction which isn't the same as another and that is transformed in that same way.

palissa

03-19-2006, 12:21

Legio, anybody alive? I need know some things.

I think every faction need a general, a lesser general, a bodyguard and a standard bearer, or captain, or musicist, or what else is name.

Let me know about it, and i will do them.

I dunno also what think about those leather armored archer i posted.

Need some feedback, thank.

edyzmedieval

03-19-2006, 13:42

Everybody is alive Palissa.

Every faction needs: A General, A Standard Bearer and a Captain.
Ok, I'll check your thread and post some feedback.

Rodion Romanovich

03-19-2006, 13:43

I think every faction need a general, a lesser general, a bodyguard and a standard bearer, or captain, or musicist, or what else is name.

I think we can use normal units for general and lesser general so no need to do extra units.

I dunno also what think about those leather armored archer i posted.

Need some feedback, thank.
Hm I'm sorry but where did u post it? I haven't seen it, I must have missed it.

Nacheras

03-22-2006, 13:47

I think fatimites, Great Moravia, seljucids and almoravids should be at game (damn CA that limits number of factions).

Almoravids are quite different, mainly in troops, to Al-Andalus faction. I accept present them at un-locked new units if there is not other solution, but definitely Al Andalus and almoravids are not the same.

almazor

03-23-2006, 17:57

i find some thing importants about almoravides,that all units of the almoravides must hide there face(not andalucians units or volentiers) because there are from sahara like touaregs,and i find in a spanish source that the spanish and andalucians call ed youssef ibn tashafine Emir el moulathamine,molathamine in arabic is a person how hide his face.

almazor

03-26-2006, 21:30

the unit list of the almoravides:
the number of infantry units of the almoravides must be hight because the almoravides like fighting on foot,and in there battle they use infantry more than horses add to that they are very desciplined like roman legion,they use also camels.

1-the lamtuna:heavy spearmen the rulers of the al moravides were from the tribe of lamtuna.the most loyal and powerfull unit
of the almoravide.
heavy spearmen, N: 120, A: strong, C: good, D: strong, W: spear, sword, H: iron, Ar: mailcoat, S: round, Mo: excellent, St: good, Co: expensive.Can make shield wall

2-the black guard:
heavy cavalry (royal bodyguard), N: 60, A: good, C: very good, D: very good, W: spear, curved sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S: oval, Mo: excellent, St: good, Co: very expensive.
i suggest that the number must be hight because,in the battle of zallaqa,the number of black guard was 4000 20% of the army and it's very hight for a personnel guards.and we give the player the possibility to dismount this killers,Can make shield wall if they fight on foot

3-al moravide horsmen:
medium cavalry, N: 40, A: good, C: very good, D: good, W: spear, curved sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S: round, Mo: good, St: average, Cost: expensive.

4-al moravide warrior:swordman unit
T: swordmen infantry, N: 80, A: good, C: strong, D: average, W: sword, H: leather/no, Ar: no, S: oval/bilobed, Mo: very good, St: very good, Co: average. Religious boost morale when combat christian or pagan

5-al moravide spearmen:
T: heavy spearmen, N: 120, A: good, C: good, D: very good, W: spear, sword. H: leather, Ar: leather, S:"your choice ", Mo: good, St: good, Co: quite expensive Religious boost morale when combat christian or pagan.

6-berber infantry:
T: light berber infantry, N: 120, A: weak, C: average, M: good, D: average, W: javelin, spear, H: no, Ar: no, S: bilobed, Mo: average, St: averege, Co: cheap.

7-Rumat al-soudan: they are recruited from senegal
T: Bowmen infantry, N: 80, A: weak, C: average, M: good, D: weak, W:bow, short sword, H: leather, Ar: no, S: oval, Mo: average, St: good. Co: cheap/average.
8-cammel drummer:extra drummer, scare all enemy units.

9-Andalucians Auxilaries:light infantry, N: 120, A: average, C: average, D: good, W: spear, sword, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: round, Mo: average, St: average, Co: average. You can use as levies.

10-al moravide camel raiders:bonus againt horses,can rout heavy cavalry,they will probably the most powerfull camel in the game.armed with spear and oval shield.

11-andalucians cavalry:medium cavalry, N: 40, A: good, C: very good, D: good, W: spear, curved sword, H: iron, Ar: mail coat, S: round, Mo: good, St: average, Cost: expensive.
12-Arab light cavalry: T: light missile cavalry, N: 40, A: average, C: good, M: average, D: average, W: arab bow, curved sword, H: leather, Ar: leather, S: round, Mo: good, St: good. Cost: expensive.
13-Berber cavalry: T: missile cavalry, N: 60, A: average, C: good, M: excellent, D: average/weak, W: javelin, sabre, H: no, Ar: no/leather, S: oval or bilobed, Mo: good, St: excellent. Co: average
14-rumat al siniya:like al andalus

edyzmedieval

03-27-2006, 21:58

Nice. Can you do it like a tech tree?

almazor

03-27-2006, 22:26

i don't now,you can send me an example of tree tech and i will do something

Rodion Romanovich

03-28-2006, 08:52

The Army lists thread has examples of it. But you don't need to use all the numbers stuff, I can fix that. All you need to write down is which barracks building level they units will appear in. It's supposed to be 4 levels.

almazor

03-28-2006, 14:32

LEVEL1:
Rumat al-soudan(archer,bow)
Rumat al siniya(archer,bow)
Berber cavalry(cavalry,javelin,sabre)
Arab light cavalry(light missile cavalry,arab bow,curved sword)
6-berber infantry:(light berber infantry,javelin, spear,)
LEVEL2:
Andalucians Auxilaries(light infantry,spear, sword,round shield,You can use as levies.)
al moravide camel raiders:bonus againt horses,can rout heavy cavalry,they will probably the most powerfull camel in the

game.armed with spear and oval shield.
andalucians cavalry(medium cavalry, spear, curved sword, mail coat,round shield,expensive)
LEVEL3:
the lamtuna(heavy spearmen,spear, sword,round,excellent,expensive.Can make shield wall)Religious boost morale when combat

christian or pagan
al moravide warrior(swordmen infantry,sword,Religious boost morale when combat christian or pagan)
al moravide horsmen(medium cavalry,spear, curved sword,round shield,expensive)Religious boost morale when combat christian or

pagan
al moravide spearmen(heavy spearmen,spear, sword,quite expensive)Religious boost morale when combat christian or pagan
LEVEL4:
the black guard(heavy cavalry (royal bodyguard),spear, curved sword,mail coat)

Rodion Romanovich

03-28-2006, 15:23

Thank you, that looks good