Greek Fire

[edyzmedieval]

Here's a challenging question...

What was the Greek Fire composed of??? And what made it to light up when it entered in contact with oxygen???

[The Wizard]

As far as I know, Greek Fire remains one of the mysteries of medieval technology, since, while being similar, naphta was not the same.

Meanwhile, the Venetians, who had apparently learnt to use Greek fire as well by the late 11th century, have not succeeded in passing the recipe down either.



~Wiz

[King Henry V]

Greek fire is similar to modern day napalm, but nobody actually knows the ingredients, since only a few people in the Eastern Roman navy knew how it was made.

[thelzdking]

Also, as far as I know, it was so volatile that it ignited spontaneously. Impressive weapon, especially for its period.

[Kagemusha]

I read somewhere that it continued burning underwater.Maybe it was Fosfor(spelling?) :bow:

[Krusader]

Taken from Wikipedia, the big tome of knowledge that must not be trusted at once


The process of manufacturing the fluid was a very carefully guarded military secret — so secret, in fact, that today we still do not know how it was made. Various sources speculate that its constituents may have included sulfur, quicklime, and liquid petroleum. It is not clear if the mixture was ignited by a flame as the mixture emerged from the syringe, or that it ignited spontaneously when it came into contact with water. If the latter is the case, it is possible that the ingredient responsible was calcium phosphide, made by heating lime, bones and charcoal. On contact with water, calcium phosphide releases phosphine, which ignites spontaneously.

[Watchman]

By what I've read of it it apparently came in several different varieties. Given that it originated in Middle East (it was reputedly invented by a Syrian architect around the 9th century or thereabouts) it would make sense for some sort of fossilic fuel to serve as a base, as the stuff used to seep into the surface on its own (and was likewise, in duly processed forms, used in incendiary weapons).

Although it apparently wasn't quite so secret as the story has it, given that it saw fairly soon use among Turks, Arabs and all across the Silk Road - both the Chinese and the Vietnamese eventually learned of a form. Hey, if a pair of missionaries could smuggle living silkworms from China to Byzantium (or that's how the story goes anyway; all I know is that they started cultivating the little critters in both the Byzantine Empire and Italy) I don't quite see how the Byzantines, especially given the desertion and territory loss rates they at times suffered, could keep the neat trick under wraps...

Given that anything that spontaneously combusts when exposed to air makes an unbelievable pain in the ass to store, transport or use (sort of like how nitroglycerine by itself has far less practical use than its far less volatile derivative TNT), chances are it didn't and was ignited by an external source of fire. Firebombs, whether thrown by hand, sling or trebuchet, could naturally use the tried-and-true "molotov cocktail" approach involving burning rags, ropes or slowmatch, while fire-hoses could presumably be constructed with a small "pilot light" like that of more modern flamethrowers.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hmm, interesting.. Was the original name "Grejuva" or something like that ? This was the word for it that we had been taught in high school history lessons in Turkey.

[Watchman]

Damned if I know, but feel free to go through whatever De Re Militari (http://www.deremilitari.org) has on the topic; some articles include discussion on old Byzantine words on various things, but dunno if this is among them. One article fairly directly relating to the subject I found is this (http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/Religion/Islam/Islamic_History/naphtha1.txt); be warned, its editing and format is absolutely horrible and you're better off saving the thing and reading it in Word or something similar that helpfully arranges the lines in a semi-ergonomic fashion.

[amazon77]

As far as i know, the exact recipe for Greek Fire is still unknown.

Of course i am most certain that something like it can be easily produced nowadays, but since the byzantines didn't have modern technology, for any recipe to be considered as the Greek Fire, it would have to be simple enough so that it could be made with the tech of the time.

The great thing about it is that it would fire up when it made contact with the water. Quite handy for a naval weapon! ~D

The secreat was very well kept, as only a handfull of ppl, one being the emperor new where the scripts for it where hidden.

[edyzmedieval]

Too bad the formula for the Greek Fire is unknown.

It might be undecodable, like many other formulas( one example: if somebody knows the Voronet Monastery, in northern Moldavia, it has a special blue called the Voronet Blue. Many researchers took samples of the blue but they couldn't find the formula, although they have analized it carefully!!!)

[edyzmedieval]

The blue is a colour, used to paint the walls of the monastery.

[Idomeneas]

The original name was ΥΓΡΟ ΠΥΡ hygro pyr meanning ''liquid fire''. Indeed the recipe was so secret that it was passing from emperor to emperor on the firsts dying day or near it. All the manufactures had their tongues cut and never left the manufacture site wich was heavily guarded. It is told that Kallinikos a greek from Syria invented it but there are indications that a form of it was in use during hellenistic years also. It could burn underwater and in fact when enemies were trying to throw water at it the flames went bigger.

I think it is another sample of ancient technologies that still today with all our progress cannot analyse. A mystery of this kind with more mythical dimensions are the weapons that hit Gauls during the attemt tosack entirely Delphi. They say thunderbolts struck them. I dont know if it was thunderbolts but i assume that it had to be something big if it turned a victorious horde away ~;)

In general we still find amazing artifacts that makes us think higher of ancient peoples cappacities. Like Antikythera computer. Scientists think that it did much more than computing dates and being astral map.

[amazon77]

What the Gauls may be talking about is the fire hose of the Corinthians. They had invented something like a flamethrower and the flames could go some 50m, perhaps more. It was cumbersome though to see action on a battlefield and was used to protect cities.
After the Athenians lost the war to the Spartans, the 400 tyrants were established by Sparta to be their goverment. Soon after a rebelion broke out and the rebels defeated an army of 2,000 hoplites assaulting their fort with these fire throwers, although they (the rebels) were way outnumbered.
The Antykithira mechanism computed astronomical distances with an astonishing credability even for todays standards (just loosing about 1,000,000 Km / ly). ~:eek:
I don't know if it did more though.

[amazon77]

Btw, Idomenea, your sig means: "help me goddess to tell the story of Achilleas son of Pileas"? I think "oulomenin" should be "olimenin", but not too sure.

[Idomeneas]

Btw, Idomenea, your sig means: "help me goddess to tell the story of Achilleas son of Pileas"? I think "oulomenin" should be "olimenin", but not too sure.
sing goddess the dreadfull wrath of achilleas son of Pileas. No it should not be ''olimenin'' i have the prototype text ~:)
edit: im not sure that dreadfull is the right world. It means the one that caused many evils

[Idomeneas]

What the Gauls may be talking about is the fire hose of the Corinthians. They had invented something like a flamethrower and the flames could go some 50m, perhaps more. It was cumbersome though to see action on a battlefield and was used to protect cities.
After the Athenians lost the war to the Spartans, the 400 tyrants were established by Sparta to be their goverment. Soon after a rebelion broke out and the rebels defeated an army of 2,000 hoplites assaulting their fort with these fire throwers, although they (the rebels) were way outnumbered.
The Antykithira mechanism computed astronomical distances with an astonishing credability even for todays standards (just loosing about 1,000,000 Km / ly). ~:eek:
I don't know if it did more though.

Im not sure that it was flamethrower. They say thunderbolts and that is something very different ~;). Mayne it was somekind of katoptron (mirrors or lenses directing sun light) i cannot know but it troubled many scientists. There are evidences of technology Heron's automatons or automaticly openning temple gates, mechanical birds and the first hammond (hydravlis). A device like antikythera computer needed not only good theoritical basis but practical also. If a machine existed then there is the possibility for many more who knows?
It is said by some that if roman conquest didnt occured there is a possibility that mankind whould have entered industrial age centuries ago. Im not impplying that romans didnt had skills but they focused mainly in practical things as roads etc.

There are some very interesting articles about ancient greek temples positioning (forming triangles) and their magnetic activitie due to their materials. Unfortunaly my english cant help me much to explain some technical stuff but it seems temples were built in special places and had some kind of pollarity.

I hope i didnt comfused you my english in that electronic stuff suck