Upgrades when combining units

[Hosakawa Tito]

I just read an interesting statement on another thread from Toocool.I thought when combining 2 units,one with an armour or weapon upgrade and one without if you dropped
the one without on the unit with the upgrade
the newly combined unit would have the upgrade.If you dropped the upgraded unit on the one without you lost the upgrade.Toocool
claims this isn't true since each warrior is individually managed even though the newly combined unit shows the armour or weapon symbol.What do you think?How do you prove or disprove this?
Tito

[Toranaga_Sama]

Interesting, kinda makes sense, as each unit is "supposed" to have its individual AI.

I thought it was a ratio thing. Take 30 armored units and combine with 15 unarmored (doesn't matter how you drop them) and you get 45 armored units, but maybe the shield icon remains simply because there are more armoured units? The situation can be reversed.

CA/DT response please?

[TooCool]

Hasakawa:
Yes, you're right: i have to prove it.
I can't remember where i have read that the game manage each soldier indivisually but i think it's in the old forum.

Others points:
- In the shogun_faq, we can read this:
"EVERY man in a unit has his OWN personal honor. The computer keeps track of every individual’s honor level. What you see for a unit’s honor is an average of all the honor of all the men in that unit (plus the honor increase or decrease that may occur due to the honor level of the taisho commanding the army the unit is part of.) "

- The log file show that the soldiers are tracked individually. Each soldier has his how stat.

So i think that the armor and weapon upgrade are managed for each soldier too (as the honor and other stat like attack factor, defence factor, etc.

[Nelson]

The log tells you the armor rating of each soldier. I believe that after combining units the majority armor class is reported for the unit but does not endow all the men with the improvement.

[Hosakawa Tito]

TooCool:What you and Nelson say makes sense.I'll have to pay closer attention to the logfile to see if all the warriors in a combined unit receive the upgrade or not.Good
point,and here I thought I was getting something for nothing darn it! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[Hosakawa Tito]

I just checked out your theory TooCool,at least partly anyway.I combined two partial units of samurai spearmen,one had improved armour the other did not.I dropped the armoured unit on the unarmoured unit when combining them and even though the armoured unit had more men the combined unit lost the upgrade,the armour symbol disappeared.I used this unit in a battle but kept them in reserve and they suffered no casualties nor made any kills.I checked the logfile and this unit does not have one warrior with armour even though when I combined them 30 had armour and 18 did not.now I will have to try combining them by dropping the unit without the upgrade on the unit with the upgrade and check it that way.
Tito

[TooCool]

This is a scientific experience? ;-)

"I checked the logfile and this unit does not have one warrior with armour even though..."
Humm... This is odd. Maybe you were right after all...

[Nelson]

I haven't experimented with this either. I knew the log recorded armor and assumed that it worked the way I described. DOH!

Perhaps it's busted?

[Hosakawa Tito]

I completed the experiment by dropping the unit with the upgrade on the one without,the combined unit kept the armour symbol.After the battle I checked the logfile and all the units had the armour upgrade even though before combining them the majority did not.TooCool your theory sounded logical but for some reason the logfile disproves it.Nice to know that you can get something for nothing once in a while. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[Moriboy]

Hey guys, for an added joy, see my "Stacking General" post...

[TooCool]

Thanks Hosakawa for the information.
And sorry to have said that you're wrong without verify my theory.

[dlo_olb]

hiya,

do u guys know how does it calculate the final honor values when combining units?

i get the following result with no predictable pattern:
3 + 2 => 3 honor
3 + 2 => 2 honor
3 + 2 => 1 honor

does it also depend on dropping order of merging units??

also, it seems that when combining unit, the the dropping unit's General will be the General of the newly combined unit (opposite to the case of weapon/armor in merging)....is it true???

thanks in advance!!

[This message has been edited by dlo_olb (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Slyspy]

Unit honour is an average of the each individual trooper's honour. I cannot be bothered to work out whether this can cause your strange results. The order of merging units does not matter.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Hosakawa Tito]

No need to apologize TooCool,you made me get off my lazy butt and check to see if I was right.After what you said I believed that you were correct and I was wrong.Seeing that each warrior in a unit is individually managed I still don't understand why this happens.Another bug maybe?
Tito

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Either the game rounds the average honor down or up incorrectly sometimes, or... (just thought of this...) maybe the average honor isn't really a dead average? Maybe some members of the unit, like the commander, are emphasized more than others? That, along with the general assignment issue dlo_olb-san mentioned, could explain this.

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"Never, youths, however wretched, / Nor in future, upgrown heroes, / Whether you have large possessions, / Or are poor in your possessions, / In the course of your lifetime, / While the golden moon is shining, / May you woo a golden woman, / Or distress yourselves for silver, /For the gleam of gold is freezing, / Only frost is breathed by silver."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVIII, verses 241-250

[Hosakawa Tito]

I agree with you Anssi on the honor calculation because that can go up or down as your unit fights in battle and is combined
with other fragmented units and the logfile shows this,ie. not all the warriors in a unit that have fought in a battle end up with the same honor level at the end of that battle because as individuals some have fought better than others.I have yet to see a logfile show this difference in armour or weapon upgrades when combining units with differences in the upgrade.They either all have the same upgraded armour or weapons or none at all.Therefore you can get the upgrade
for surviving warriors in a unit that didn't have that upgrade when first trained by combining them correctly,dropping the non or low upgrade unit on the unit with the superior upgrade,getting something for nothing.Conversely you can LOSE that upgrade
you paid for by combining them the other way.
It doesn't seem to matter if the majority of warriors BEFORE combining units has the superior upgraded ARMOUR or WEAPONS,unlike the honor calculation where the higher average honor of each individual raises the unit honor.Whew!all this thinking is making me dizzy! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[Hosakawa Tito]

Slyspy,Anssi after reading your post all the way through I think you misunderstood.We were refering to the armour and weapon upgrades in SP campaign not the honor calculations.How you combine the units does seem to make a difference as I stated above.If you only play multiplayer then it doesn't matter since at this time there are no weapon or armour upgrades in multiplayer.
Sorry for the confusion.
Tito

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Actually, we were replying to dlo_olb-san's post. It wasn't related to the armor/weapon upgrades, but I thought it was still close enough to the thread's subject. Call it a sidetrack, if you will.

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"Go to the battlefield firmly confident of victory, and you will come home with no wounds whatever. Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death."
- Uesugi Kenshin