Need Advice : How to use Legionary Cohorts Properly " TESTUDO "

[kinein]

Any advice? I know I could figure it out overtime but I'd like to hear input from veteran players anyways :) It's nice to have someone to chat about the game on these forums :) Basically it seems like when I put them into testudo before they engage it's useless..?

I've gathered I should charge them into melee then form the testudo..

Do I appear to be on the right track?

Thanks for any and all replies, commentary. Much appreciated.

[Productivity]

My understanding is that the testudo formation is for when you are under heavy missile fire from archers. Aside from that it is pretty much useless as it tires your troops, reduces their mobility and prevents them from using their pila.

[Viking]

Testudo is for sustaining missile fire, but there might be other uses as well.
It`s no good in melee, so for whatever you do, do not form testudo after the charge

[Slug For A Butt]

Testudo is purely for absorbong missile fire. As has been said already, DON'T use testudo in melee.
Just out of interest, where did you learn that testudo was a melee tactic?

[lars573]

The movie Anthony and Cleopatra IIRC, showed Romans forming testudo and marching into a melee. Goddamn hollywood. :furious3:

[professorspatula]

A good way to test the Testudo is to give yourself a unit of Urban Cohorts or Praetorians, and give the enemy some archers and peltasts. Form Testudo and try to absorb the barriage of missiles. Turning is tricky, but with any luck they'll run out of arrows, charge you (get out of Testudo) and you'll slaughter them.
I've probably only needed to form Testudo in a proper battle a few times as it's slow and awkward to get in and out of the formation.

I can't imagine trying to use the Testudo for anything else but stationary defence against missiles. I suppose it has its uses in siege battles when trying to move legionaries up to siege equipment/walls, but running fast seems to be just as effective.

[tibilicus]

I dont use Testudo at all normaly. I used to use it in seiges but then i figured out that i would actually take less casualtys if my men ran to the geats. I think its probably more there for realism.

[kinein]

Well in practice so far, concerning in melee, I've moved a Testudo into the center of 4 charging attackers, and interesting enough they held all 4 for a very long time til I got bored of watching them hold and slowly die. But if anything Testudo's cannot be flanked that is 1, and they can fight all directions while taking arrow fire and not be swayed. Also you can tire out the enemy using just 1 testudo, 1 per 4-5 groups of enemy , not including archers and that Testudo will stand and deliver while the rest of your army watches.

After I lost 50% of my Testudo and I had the enemy starting to tire, I charged the rest of my army and suddenly every single unit on the other side of 10-12 routed and fled.

That's my single real memorable experience which is why I was asking in the first place :) From my understanding its like a turtle with spikes on all directions so that you take a lot less damage and can wear away at any opponent that dares close in on your Testudo ( does not include Elephants -_- , or chariots with blades coming out of their wheels " dunno " ).

[kinein]

interesting stuff I found out about the testudo in history -

The Roman Testudo, which means (literally Tortoise) is one of the best known tactics used by the Roman army during warfare.
The Testudo was usually used to approach fortifications, and was first mentioned by Polybius, writing in the second century BCE.
Basically it involved a number of men in a carefully planned formation, each with their long rectangular shields overlapping to form a continuous roof above their heads and all other shields facing forward, and on the right and left side so as to protect the whole from darts and missiles etc.
The number of men that make up one of these TESTUDO varied, but it required considerable training and rehearsal to perfect.
The shields fitted so closely together as to present one unbroken surface without any interstices between them, and were also so firm that men could walk upon them, and even horses and chariots be driven over them (Dion Cass. xlix.30) .

Once a TESTUDO (TESTUDINEM FACERE) was formed only the heaviest missiles were capable of penetrating a well-formed Testudo (Tortoise).
It was all but invulnerable to small dart, (arrows) and missiles, though Josephus tells of how the defenders of Jotapata broke one by pouring boiling fat onto it and that the Parthians defenders of a city toppled a heavy catapult over the wall to crush the roof shielding the legionaries beneath.

Sometimes the shields were inclined in such a way as to make the Testudo slope. The soldiers in the first line stood upright, those in the second stooped a little, and each line successively was a little lower than the proceeding down to the last, where the soldiers rested on one knee.
Such a disposition of the shields was called Fastigiata Testudo, on account of their sloping like the roof of a building.
The advantages of this plan were obvious: the stones and missiles thrown upon the shields rolled off them like water from a roof; besides which, other legionaries frequently advanced upon them to attack the enemy upon the walls using the Testudo as ramp to gain access to the walls.
The Romans were accustomed to form this kind of Testudo, as an exercise, in the games of the Circus (Liv. xliv.9; Polyb. xxviii.12).

[Marquis of Roland]

I wish the testudo was that great in the game. If I remember correctly, in the Carrhae historical battle if you leave your guys in testudo the cataphracts ran all over you. One frontal charge on the testudo sent guys flying everywhere.

I think its just better (and more flexible) to leave them in loose formation, esp. for sieges. Arrows still tend to get into a testudo and kill people in the game, and the less time your unit is exposed to fire from the walls the less casualties they'll take, hence running in loose is better.

[ararax]

its great for crashing a phalenx form testudo alt click behind the phalenx once you split them break testudo and cut them down

[bubbanator]

Ya, on seiges, I find that I take less casualties if I just run my men up close to the walls than if I let them walk in testudo.

[Simetrical]

If I remember correctly, in the Carrhae historical battle if you leave your guys in testudo the cataphracts ran all over you. One frontal charge on the testudo sent guys flying everywhere.Well, that's what happened in the real battle.

-Simetrical

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Some advice: NEVER use testudo against horse javelins. They can charge on a dime and slaughter you. I had a full unit of Urbans slaughtered by one unit of Numidians because they charged when I was in testudo.

[Marquis of Roland]

Well, that's what happened in the real battle.

-Simetrical

Yes, exactly.

I will try that testudo vs. phalanx thing, sounds interesting.

[ararax]

oh yea you need guard mode on otherwise they break as soon as they hit the phalenx but drive them through and they own most phalenxs

[ararax]

ok did some tests, if used properly a basic late roman legion will beat with out javalins thrown in a straight head charge 1 on 1 with both units at 0XP
hoplites
armored hoplites 97 men left
phalenx pikemen 135 men left
levy pikemen
ect...
they will most likely lose vs spartans
vs SS pikes and broze pikes IDK

[Divine Wind]

Ive only ever used it once or twice, and that was only to draw some arrow fire away from my battering rams during a siege.

[katank]

@kinein, testudo still has facing and they get owned in melee. You get better results out of testudo.

Testudo is also horribly bugged and is slightly less so in 1.2. They should only be used for absorbing arrow fire and gets killed by other things like onagers.

[kinein]

Thanks for the input everyone!

[NihilisticCow]

As regards the previous post about using testudo versus Phalanxes - testudo is not even remotely effective versus decent phalanxes. I occasionally see Romans doing this online against my Sacred Band... it doesn't go too well for them....

[ararax]

how have you tried it? you need to be on flat ground, or going downhill and you need guard mode on, patience is a key, dont break testudo until youve split the phalenx or at least gotten the center units to switch to sword.
secondly what units are you useing VS the testudo

Sacred Band
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_sec 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_pri_armour 11, 7, 5, metal
vs
roman legionary cohort ii
stat_pri 13, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_sec 9, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_pri_armour 12, 5, 5, metal
yes the romans will get owned, the units arent equal even not in phalenx sacred band will own

try vs
Urban Cohort
stat_pri 18, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_sec 14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_pri_armour 12, 7, 5, metal

look for a phalenx unit that has a lower armor and secondary attack then legionaires cause thats what matters once the testudo does its job, and i never claimed that it would allow them to beat better units, spartans will kick legion butt out of or in phalenx