British rebate

[English assassin]

Go Gordon!


Brown's tirade at French
By Joe Murphy Political Editor
10 June 2005
Gordon Brown launched a ferocious attack on Jacques Chirac today as the row over Europe boiled over.

He said France was trying to "wish away" Europe's real problems of mass unemployment and financial waste by manufacturing a row over the British rebate
In a withering condemnation, he laid into Mr Chirac's demands for an end to the £3billion rebate.
The Chancellor said the sum was dwarfed by huge subsidies grabbed by the French for their own farmers.
"Let's remember in the context of France that we have paid 58billion in euros to the European Union as our contribution in the last 20 years," he said. "France has only paid 29 billion.
"In the last 10 years we have paid 35 billion-France has paid only 13 billion. For Mr Chirac to complain about our rebate when even in 2013 France expects to get nine billion of euros simply for its agriculture policy; when one country for one item of policy, agriculture policy, is taking up such a huge share of the EU budget - then there are bigger issues to discuss before we can reach a settlement than simply discussing the British rebate.
"To suggest that the problems that Europe faces, or the referendums were lost or that unemployment was 10 per cent because of the British rebate is to wish away problems that Europe must face up to." His highly and deliberately provocative comments paved the way for a showdown at European talks when Mr Chirac, backed by Germany, will try to make Tony Blair accept cuts in the rebate.
Mr Brown said Britain would use its veto to stop any attempt to scrap the rebate.
His comments came as Neil Kinnock today accused the French president of bringing "discredit" on himself by playing diplomatic games at Britain's expense.
The attack by the former European Commissioner was fresh evidence that Mr Blair is ready to provoke a bitter showdown with Mr Chirac on the future of the EU.
Lord Kinnock, a friend and ally of the Prime Minister, tore into Mr Chirac who has been criticising Britain over its £3billion rebate and the handling of the doomed EU constitution.
Accusing the Frenchman of lacking candour and of stoking the budget feud as a diversion from his own political problems, Lord Kinnock said: "It demonstrates once again most regrettably that Mr Chirac has not learned the lesson of his own referendum, which is that Europe should not be conducting affairs at this level without effort to explain exactly what the causes are and, to be frank, to be candid about the relationships between member states.
"And Chirac playing this digressionary game simply adds to the discredit."
His intervention came as Mr Blair's close allies said the Prime Minister was "up for a fight" with Mr Chirac and ready to provoke a climax to the feud that has simmered between them for four years.
The Prime Minister was holding a series of meetings to prepare for crucial talks next week.

Can Europe work until France gets her fingers out the honey pot and starts paying in as she should, I ask myself?

I will gladly give up the rebate if the CAP is abolished at the same time.

[Productivity]

Note to Chirac. Before attacking someone else, make sure you are on the higher ground.

[JAG]

Go Gordon!

See you are turning to my way of thinking. ~;)

I too would gladly give up the rebate if CAP is abolished, but until then - presumably like every person in this country - Chirac can go to hell before we give up the rebate. It is still fair, it is justified and I think we need to look at the wastage of the EU budget wholesale, not simply pick on the rebate because it is a great political target for the French.

I love the EU project, but sometimes it can drag you down. Shut up Chirac. ~:handball:

[Al Khalifah]

What Chirac has acknowledged by this move is that he is unpopular with the French people because they believe he does not represent them. He seems to believe that he can regain the applause of the French people if he goes after 'the old enemy' and that he can be their hero again.

It's complete hipocrisy on his behalf to accuse the British of being unwilling to compromise on their contributions to Europe, while at the same time refusing to renegotiate the Common Agricultural Policy. Britain would not want the rebate if the CAP were abolished. Also, who are the French to demand Britain increase their contribution? The British have an annual net donation to the EU twice as large as the French.

Unfortunately, I fear more European nations are likely to side with France on this one rather than Britain, especially with Britain's reputation as being a bad member. If ever you needed an example of why the national veto must remain, this is it.

[Don Corleone]

As I see it, this will be the first big test of the European Union 'Philosophy'. Is it a mechanism for wealth from successful countries to be redistributed to those that are struggling, or is it a federation of strong economies seeking to make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.

From what little I know of the whole rebate/CAP issue, I'm surprised most reasonable French even support this move. Perhaps one of our French comrades would care to share their views on the matter, as I'm having a hard time guessing what a plausible defense for them on this issue would be.

[Ldvs]

What Chirac has acknowledged by this move is that he is unpopular with the French people because they believe he does not represent them. He seems to believe that he can regain the applause of the French people if he goes after 'the old enemy' and that he can be their hero again.
False. Maybe you'll be surprised but the UK isn't considered to be the "old enemy" (except by a few loonies) any longer. Obviously, this sentiment persists on the other side of the Channel, though. That's sad.

As a Frenchman, I agree that Chirac should have shut his big mouth and that he poorly timed this action, as usual, but...

On one hand, Britain should never have got this rebate. On the other hand, CAP costs way too much to the EU, not to mention most of the subsidies go to the largest agricultural firms that don't really need them, while those who desperately need them receive a pitiful part.

[InsaneApache]

I disagree, we should give the French whatever they want...why not even volunteer to double our payments after the rebate is given up...

Then we shall see how long the EU lasts...I'd give it a fortnight at most ~:cool:

nb: has anyone else noticed how Chirac said that the CAP is not up for discussion, however the UK rebate is!!!! ... hell even the French arn't going to fall for this diversion ... good God its so transparent.

[Ldvs]

nb: has anyone else noticed how Chirac said that the CAP is not up for discussion, however the UK rebate is!!!! ... hell even the French arn't going to fall for this diversion ... good God its so transparent.
You just have to watch him for a short time to know blundering is his foremost hobby.

[Don Corleone]

Well, there is a small, but not insignificant number of politically aware people in America that view the EU as a peaceful of subjugation of the rest of Europe to the combined will of France & Germany.

[InsaneApache]

You just have to watch him for a short time to know blundering is his foremost hobby.

I can believe that my friend...you got it easy...we got Bliar...now theres a novel by itself.....upper class twit gets to be Prime Minister of the UK by pretending hes a normal 'bloke' like the rest of us...oh deary deary me...

What a bunch of fools we Euros seem to elect....and then one gazes across the Atlantic...and I for one, feel warmed by the fact that we arn't the only ones to elect idiots.

God bless democracy.

[BDC]

I can believe that my friend...you got it easy...we got Bliar...now theres a novel by itself.....upper class twit gets to be Prime Minister of the UK by pretending hes a normal 'bloke' like the rest of us...oh deary deary me...

What a bunch of fools we Euros seem to elect....and then one gazes across the Atlantic...and I for one, feel warmed by the fact that we arn't the only ones to elect idiots.

God bless democracy.
I'm sure the millions who died defending it would feel happy knowing how well it is utilised.

[JAG]

I can believe that my friend...you got it easy...we got Bliar...now theres a novel by itself.....upper class twit gets to be Prime Minister of the UK by pretending hes a normal 'bloke' like the rest of us...oh deary deary me...

What a bunch of fools we Euros seem to elect....and then one gazes across the Atlantic...and I for one, feel warmed by the fact that we arn't the only ones to elect idiots.

God bless democracy.

Blair > Bush + most other leaders we have around the world.

Blair isn't such a bad leader, some policies stink but others are not half bad.

[ah_dut]

More Chirac blag...someone slap the man will ya? please, he's a total waste of space. Let's grab EU money for the CAP and then slag off Britain for contributing loads and wanting a bit back...

Sorry those of you who are French, but I feel sorry for you getting Chirac, he's even worse than Euan Blair

[Ldvs]

Sorry those of you who are French, but I feel sorry for you getting Chirac, he's even worse than Euan Blair
Yes he's a very embarrassing and boring person (you just feel a current when he speaks). I see you're understanding, what about you keeping him in custody for the 2 next years? You know, just to let us time to elect a new president? ~;)

[King Henry V]

I can believe that my friend...you got it easy...we got Bliar...now theres a novel by itself.....upper class twit gets to be Prime Minister of the UK by pretending hes a normal 'bloke' like the rest of us...oh deary deary me...

What a bunch of fools we Euros seem to elect....and then one gazes across the Atlantic...and I for one, feel warmed by the fact that we arn't the only ones to elect idiots.

God bless democracy.
Well as Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the other ones."

[doc_bean]

You know, the UK really isn't seen as such a 'bad apple' by the EU policy makers as the general public seems to think. At least they transform the EU laws into national laws, we keep getting fined for not doing that, and we have the capital (our prime minister even went as far as to say "We are Europe", but then he fits the Blair, Chirac, Bush line-up perfectly ~D ).

The UK is entitled to the rebate, that's pretty clear.

The CAP really is a problem, I'm not sure we're ever going to get rid of it.
Look at what happen with the textile, we drop the quota for a while and everybody starts to panick. Before you know it, we have a new quota 'for just five years'.

Now I'm not a big fan of globalisation, but the amount of protectionism we have with the CAP is simply unacceptable. It makes taxes higher AND food more expensive, how ridiculous can you get ?

[BDC]

I think the EU would function much better if France was ejected from it.

Possibly annexed by the EU then forcibly.

[Idaho]

Well, there is a small, but not insignificant number of politically aware people in America that view the EU as the peaceful subjugation of the rest of Europe to the combined will of France & Germany.

No-one disputes that - the only question is whether this process will make us richer or poorer ~;)

[Al Khalifah]

Perhaps Gordon Brown should agree to end the rebate to appease Jacques Chirac. In exchange, a Common Mining Policy will be established. Britain will get £3bn a year to re-open its coal mines and re-employ the miners, despite the fact this is a proven inefficient industry and will drain a large portion of EU finances to a small percentage of its population. Or maybe a Common MG Rover Policy, where the car manufacturer would be paid to produce cars that are then left in car mountains. While we're at it, why not a Common Steel Policy? Anything to maintain some antiquated inefficient sectors of UK industry, rather than looking towards solutions for the future.

Sounds stupid? That's pretty much what CAP is. 42% of the EU finances are spent through CAP on 5% of its population employed in agriculture.

[zelda12]

So when's Geldoff and Bonno (Twat) going to turn up and bitch slap Chirac for making Africa one of the economically deprived areas in the world...I hate Bonno.


Chirac is a crook, last election what was the rallying call that swept him into power..."Vote for the crook not the fascist"...oookay. Bottom line is that the CAP is needed for France (at least in the French Govt.'s eyes) because the French economy is so royally screwed up and unemployment is so high. What Chirac is afraid of is that without the CAP France will start to spiral and then he'll have to 'down size' the welfare state to a degree, which will guarantee his defeat next election.

In the meantime the CAP is gnawing away at the roots of the EU, what he doesn't see is that if he doesn't stop whining and start trying to find solutions to France's problems then the EU may very well collapse in on its self and then he'll be left without the CAP anyway.

In other words I would lend France Brown for a few years in exchange for the rebate. That way Chirac has someone who understands economics and Blair gets Brown out of the office. ~:cool:

[doc_bean]

Perhaps Gordon Brown should agree to end the rebate to appease Jacques Chirac. In exchange, a Common Mining Policy will be established.

Hell yeah, that would solve our economic problems too ~:cheers:

We can I petition ?

[Papewaio]

Is 42% of the EU spent on subsidizing the Agricultural industry?

So the primary aim of the EU is protectionism and anti-freetrade as defined by where the money is used.

[Ldvs]

Is 42% of the EU spent on subsidizing the Agricultural industry?
I don't know whether it is the exact percentage, but I know it swallows at least one third of the European budget. For once, I agree with the English, if it was spent in research it would prove more profitable in the long run.

[Al Khalifah]

Unfortunately it looks like democracy is going to let us down again, an example of the will of the many not being the best option, because twenty-four member nations think the rebate should go while only one thinks it should remain. Not really surprising that other countries are happy to take British money.
The veto will hopefully be used if necessary, but if it is then it will be another major sign of European disunity caused by failed socialist experiments.

[Ldvs]

I post to add a good article from BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4094652.stm)


Fact check: Britain's EU Rebate
THE CLAIM

Tony Blair and Jacques Chirac
The French and British disagree about the rebate
Prime Minister Tony Blair has stood firm in his defence of the UK rebate, the discount the UK receives on its contribution to the European Union budget.

France is leading European calls for the UK rebate to be abolished, as the European Union's budget negotiations begin.

Mr Blair has rejected calls for Britain to make a "gesture of solidarity" with other EU nations by renegotiating the rebate.

"First of all, Britain has been making a gesture, because over the past 10 years, even with the British rebate, we have been making a contribution to Europe two-and-a-half times that of France," he said. "Without the rebate it would have been 15 times as much as France."

EU REBATE: BACKGROUND

All EU countries contribute to the EU budget, and in return benefit from EU spending in their countries.

Because the bulk of the EU budget is spent on supporting farmers' incomes, countries with a large agricultural sector (like Spain, Portugal and Greece) generally get more back than they put in.

Large countries like Britain and Germany are net contributors to the EU budget, while Italy and France are broadly neutral.

However, in 1984 Britain negotiated a reduction of two-thirds in its net contribution, to be paid by other EU members, on the grounds that as a relatively poor member state it paid too much and received relatively little in return.

Now the other EU members, including the 10 new members mainly drawn from former communist states in Eastern Europe, want to abolish or reduce that rebate, on the grounds that Britain is no longer one of the poorer member states, and support for agriculture is a diminishing part of the EU budget.

EU REBATE: THE FACTS

Britain's central argument is that if it did not receive the rebate, its contribution would be unfairly high.

The relative contributions of member states to the EU vary considerably from year to year.

In 2003, the latest year in which official figures are available, France paid 15.15bn euros into the EU coffers, but received 13.43bn euros in return, making a net payment of about 1.7bn euros. This 1.7bn euros figure includes a 1.6bn contribution to the UK rebate.

Britain paid 9.97bn euros into the EU budget but received 6.22bn euros in return, so it made a net contribution of about 3.8bn euros. This figure would have been much bigger, but for the 5.2bn euros the UK received as a rebate, one third of which came from France.

So- hypothetically speaking - if the UK did not get a rebate, then France's contribution to the EU would be just 100m euros while the UK's contribution would be 9bn euros.

France's contribution to the UK rebate is large because Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and Sweden have negotiated a 75% reduction in their share of rebate contributions. So Italy and France together pay more than half of the cost of the UK rebate.

The UK government prefers to calculate the net cost of EU membership over a longer period.

The Treasury says that over the nine years between 1995 and 2003, the French net contribution to the EU totalled 13bn euros, while the UK paid net contributions of 35bn euros.

The Treasury argues that if the UK had not received a rebate, it would have paid a total of 67bn euros, while if France had not paid a rebate contribution of 8.5bn euros, then it would have paid in just 4.5bn euros - 15 times less, as Mr Blair has claimed.

As striking as these figures appear, some experts argue that it is misleading to analyse the rebate in this way.

Professor Iain Begg, an expert in European finance at the London School of Economics, says that this hypothetical comparison of payments without the rebate is not very meaningful.

He says that the best way to calculate the cost of EU membership is to look at contributions as a proportion of a country's economy.

On this basis, the France made a net contribution of 0.12% of GDP in 2003, and the UK 0.16% of GDP, a difference of about 33%.

EU REBATE: COUNTER- CLAIM

The French argument centres quite simply on the fact the UK rebate is no longer justified because the UK is no longer poorer than the rest of Europe, as it was in 1984 when the rebate was agreed.

A senior French official also argued that Britain's historical disadvantage due to heavy EU spending on agriculture would decrease over time, since the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) would reduce spending on agriculture to just 35% of the EU budget by 2013.

CONCLUSION

Britain clearly benefits less than many other countries from an EU budget which is still focused on agricultural support.

However, a direct comparison of payments, subtracting out rebate payments, between just two countries, can exaggerate the differences in contributions.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Dumbest president in history... Chirac is now down to 26% approval rating. A new all time low, after being the worse re elected president...

CAP is an overblown mess. 2% of French workforce is in Agriculture. Please, please, PLEASE, get rid of it. And get rid of the British rebate at the same time.
Then, if we do it right (and Chirac is very unlikely to be able to do that), we'll pressure the US into scraping their own agricultural subsisdies, and give a chance for developing countries to compete fairly.

I have very little expectations that Chirac is able to get a win-win situation with Blair (scrap CAP- scrap rebate); his leadership and diplomatic skills are just too lacking for that. But that's the only good way out of that crisis.

:embarassed:

Louis,

[Ldvs]

CAP is an overblown mess. 2% of French workforce is in Agriculture.
You seem to forget a bit quickly agriculture doesn't only concern farmers but also agro-industry which happens to be France's main strength. The amount of money dedicated to CAP and its distribution are simply not acceptable, though. Research would benefit greatly from a redistribution.

[doc_bean]

It's not just the French that benefit from the CAP though, which will make it very hard to get rid of.

The whole budget needs to be rethought, every country should give a *fair* net amount of money to the EU. The current differences are inexcusable.

On a side note, the whole budget thing is a bit overblown as well. the EU works on about half the budget Belgium does...

[GonZ]

There are lot's of mention about democracy here... what democracy? I'm 38 and have never had the chance to vote on Europe. We won't get our promised referendum on the EU constitution.

The Brits should have their say. I for one am sick of being rollercoastered towards a bent federal Europe.

On the rebate... sure no probs cancel the rebate, we'll pay you 3 billion less.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Note to Chirac. Before attacking someone else, make sure you are on the higher ground.
Or you have loads of nukes. Yes, this is a subtle dig at Bush.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Or you have loads of nukes. Yes, this is a subtle dig at Bush.


right - the debate over the UK's rebate is analogous to the conflict with iraq prior to invasion

well placed and meaningful jibe against bush if i must say


anyway, i havn't found any legitimate reasons for the EU to simply end the the rebate without a renegotiation of the entire construct. It would be one thing if the UK was closed to this, but since blair has said it could end as long as EVERYTHING was taken into concideration, the UK's position is without any serious flaws that i can see

their position is solid and chirac seems to be becoming senile or desperate

im still looking for a real arguement from the anti-rebate side that takes the disparity in national spending between the UK and France seriously (i mean - France has a higher population than the UK and makes fewer payments to the union - i dont see how they can logically say that the UK is morally dearth for not wanting to pay an even unfavorable ratio). some balance needs to be made on all sides

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Now, if you read the quote, perhaps you will understand.

[Ldvs]

im still looking for a real arguement from the anti-rebate side that takes the disparity in national spending between the UK and France seriously (i mean - France has a higher population than the UK and makes fewer payments to the union - i dont see how they can logically say that the UK is morally dearth for not wanting to pay an even unfavorable ratio). some balance needs to be made on all sides
Read the article in my post #25 in this very topic and you'll understand that the contribution is related to the GDP, not to the population. If the UK paid a lot more, it's because they have had a much stronger economy than France over the past 20 years. What needs to be fixed is the disparity in the percentage of GDP that is destined for the EU's budget.

By the way, to end some prejudices this graph will show you France isn't stealing money.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40613000/gif/_40613236_net_givers2_gra203.gif

I think the country truly entitled to complain about the EU's budget distribution isn't the UK, but rather Germany, no?

[Al Khalifah]

I think the country truly entitled to complain about the EU's budget distribution isn't the UK, but rather Germany, no?
Germany has every right to complain about the disparity but doesn't. It also isn't voicing concerns that the single currency has run down their economy, increase inflation and caused rocketting unemployment.
However, just because Britain doesn't have the most right to complain, it doesn't mean that it has no right to complain at all.

The strange thing about the EU at the moment is that it seems to want to punish Britain for having a succesful economic model. Perhaps the people of old Europe would do far better to take a look at their system and perhaps learn something, in particular the French. It would make much sense to look to the future rather than cling to the current bizarre logic of: "Eastern Europeans are going to steal our jobs because they will work for less, therefore we will introduce heavy, expensive legislation to stop this happening which will increase labour costs here."
The old EU needs to look to the future rather than the past. The CAP is the past, as is the British rebate which is tied to the CAP. Abolishing the CAP and the rebate would allow Europe to move forward instead of stagnating into a total welfare state. Britain should not contribute more to the European Union while it continues to squander funds on backwards social measures.

[InsaneApache]

Bloody hell no wonder Spain voted 'Si' in the Euro referendum.....look how much money they get ~:eek: ...

This would be a good time for the politicos to clear away all the deadwood and properly reform the whole of the budget, CAP and rebates/payments.

Perhaps they should bin the EU as a single entity and return to the trading bloc we all thought we'd joined.