View Full Version : EB, megalomaniacs like CA?
Proper Gander
06-12-2005, 15:18
i was just wondering. will EB decrease the size of the mammoth trees in size, to a sensible height?
they did a wonderful job in CTW as you can see here. ~:eek:
http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/RTW/supertrees.jpg
the ame accounts for the walls. it has been asked a lot but the common answer was mostly "yes they are ridiculous" from the community. i can't remember a direct response from a EB member.
eadingas
06-12-2005, 15:21
pretty trees... although now they seem too short, I had a tree planted by my brother that grew taller than those :)
Proper Gander
06-12-2005, 15:34
too short?! i don't know where you live, but in europe this is just about the size of the average tree.
we don't have mammoth trees in europe, and i am sure it wasn't that diffrent 2000 years ago.
http://img86.echo.cx/img86/9281/engvsfra10rb.jpg
eadingas
06-12-2005, 16:06
If you count it using height of a soldier as scale, these trees are no more than 30 m tall, at least that's what I can tell from the screenshots. In old european forests, pines and spruces go usually to 50-80 m. So they should be halfway between CTW and CA ones (which are about 100-120 m tall).
And actually it WAS different 2000 years ago. How many real old northern european forests ever untouched by man have you seen? There were plenty more of them back then.
That's not saying that we won't change the vanilla trees, of course. Maybe not for the beta, though...
anonymous_joe
06-12-2005, 17:57
too short?! i don't know where you live, but in europe this is just about the size of the average tree.
we don't have mammoth trees in europe, and i am sure it wasn't that diffrent 2000 years ago.
http://img86.echo.cx/img86/9281/engvsfra10rb.jpg
Which mod's that?
Simetrical
06-12-2005, 18:13
CTW, as he said. Chivalry: Total War.
-Simetrical
anonymous_joe
06-12-2005, 18:15
Sorry, didn't notice that. Thanks.
bodidley
06-12-2005, 20:23
Of course, there would have much older trees around back then, but the majority of trees would not have been so huge. The forests really should have been mostly shorter, and much denser for visual purposes and stategic purposes as well; phalanxes and cavalry do just fine in forests in RTW vanilla.
I'd bet that SOME day when "the code" is unlocked that we'll see some really interesting developments in more realistic forests (eg much denser, with a lower treeline in general in most areas, but some mammoth tree forests, etc.) and more realistic deserts (leave huge rocks for australia maybe?).
In the meantime, I cant wait to play a sp campaign of CTW when they release it, but I'm really holding my breath for EB. GO EB, GO EB...
Yep, forrests somewhere between these & the RTW ones would be a big improvement.
More regional species/heights would be cool too.
Proper Gander
06-12-2005, 21:55
i suspect in about jsut over a 1 year i will have CTW, EB and BI all completed and updated on my harddrive. ~D
that would be really rather nice. at last i can thoroughly enjoy the new TW engine then. ~;)
i am anticipating EB most of all though.
Samurai Waki
06-12-2005, 22:04
I agree, trees in RTW are too big (especially in Germania and the Alps). The Mammoth remind me more of Cedars or Redwoods which are native to the US and not Europe.
Supposedly over in Blue Lotus mod Hoggy is making totally new textures for terrain. If they are as good as his horsmodels and other textures, it will be beautiful to behold.
Kind of makes me wish I knew just a wee bit about how to take things from here and there to tinker my RTW to my taste. Until then I'll just play SPQR and wait for EB...
More regional species/heights would be cool too.
One day I will learn how to model and skin and then I will make very accurate trees and animals for all the different regions of the map. Of course there will be no models left for units so it will be mostly Peasants: Total War, but it will be pretty!
anonymous_joe
06-13-2005, 11:57
I'm fairly sure the tree size is accurate. Europe's forests would have lost their forests as a result of their ship-building and land clearance.
The Americas never had a British navy, or a French one or a Spanish one cut from their trees. As a result, most large European trees have been cut down.
cunctator
06-13-2005, 12:10
One day I will learn how to model and skin and then I will make very accurate trees and animals for all the different regions of the map. Of course there will be no models left for units so it will be mostly Peasants: Total War, but it will be pretty!
You could make stone age hunters:total war. Your armies move around map and kill all kind of exotic and accurate animals.
The Wizard
06-13-2005, 14:07
I'm fairly sure the tree size is accurate. Europe's forests would have lost their forests as a result of their ship-building and land clearance.
The Americas never had a British navy, or a French one or a Spanish one cut from their trees. As a result, most large European trees have been cut down.
True, but comparing the RTW trees to the men underneath them, I conclude CA has mixed up ancient oak trees and sequoya's.
~Wiz
Id be more worried aboout the fact that in vanilla trees stop flaming onager pots with ease.
eadingas
06-13-2005, 17:34
And they would do so in EB (I guess it's hardcoded) if we had any onagers :)
Proper Gander
06-13-2005, 18:12
funny that many people find the trees appropriate in vanilla. okay, the height is JUST about at the limit. but just look at those tree trunks! ~:eek:
bodidley
06-13-2005, 19:05
I'm fairly sure the tree size is accurate. Europe's forests would have lost their forests as a result of their ship-building and land clearance.
The Americas never had a British navy, or a French one or a Spanish one cut from their trees. As a result, most large European trees have been cut down.
Not quite.There's hardly a tree in America more than 100 years old. The British navy in the 18th century used American trees to make the masts on their ships, which is one of the reasons why Parliament didn't want to give up the 13 colonies without a fight, and America definately went through the deforestation and industrialization that Europe did. If it weren't for Theodore Roosevelt's conservation laws, we probably wouldn't have many trees here at all.
American oaks sometimes grow huge, but most of them don't survive to be that large; same goes with pines. Red woods can get that big, but it takes a loooong time, and they are pretty regionally restricted. The trees in RTW are most comparable to the American Chestnut, but a blight killed off almost all of those 100 years ago.
The trees of the European forests 1700 years ago wouldn't have all been so big just because there would have been more oldies. First off, most trees don't live that long, and secondly, you usually can't have so many trees that big right next to eachother, because the soil can't support them, and since they need a lot of light, all of that shade from other massive trees would kill them. What you would have seen would be a few huge ones, with many large but much smaller trees, and then a dense undergrowth.
Duke John
06-13-2005, 19:09
Something like this is to your liking?
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload7/sj_tac_trees1.jpg
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload7/sj_tac_trees2.jpg
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload7/sj_tac_trees3.jpg
Don't worry I told khelvan how to do it.
Edit: hmm, these were my first trees, so don't look to close them, just be assured that it is possible to edit them.
Greek_fire19
06-13-2005, 19:12
~:eek: are those for your sengoku jedai mod? cus that's just incredible. In an entirely different league from RTW landscapes. Did you redo the sky too?
EDIT: What am I talking about, obviously you redid the sky
bodidley
06-13-2005, 19:14
Beautiful!!! Needs, some big trees too, but I understand that it's work-in-progress ~;) With denser forest, it might actually have a tactical effect!
Many thanks :bow:
Duke John
06-13-2005, 19:22
Perhaps this shows a bit better what you can achieve:
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload5/sj_tac_trees4.jpg
Unit order is quite messed up when walking through this kind of dense forests.
Kagemusha
06-13-2005, 19:25
Thats just beutiful.
bodidley
06-13-2005, 19:29
All EB needs now is a botonist ~:cheers:
Proper Gander
06-13-2005, 19:42
All EB needs now is a botonist
:laugh4:
those pics look fantastic. but i msut say taht the first ones look more like trees you find in australia, asia or africa. basically anything but europe. though i am anything but a botanist. ~;)
the second pic is really great though!
this is actually turning into one of these fussy threads i don't like very much normally...
Erm, that is because Duke John is posting pictures from Sengoku Jidai, a mod based in Japan.
I Love It!
Draft him! Draft him!
~;)
Wow, I am really impressed!...
You talented modders out there are really improving the gaming experience and taking this to the next level. Awesome forest!!! (pic2)
Lord Adherbal
06-13-2005, 20:43
I'd be carefull not making those forest too dense, cos it'll have quite an impact on framerate. Unless you dont mind your mod requiring a better PC then RTW vanilla.
Personally I prefer a higher framerate and let a few trees represent a dense forest. After all graphics aren't everything. Just look at what happened to RTW when CA decided to make GFX it's main selling point...
eadingas
06-13-2005, 20:48
Bloody hell.
I will now go into the corner and cry. I want those trees! I can't even get lousy palms to appear in the game...
Teleklos Archelaou
06-13-2005, 20:52
Bloody hell.
I will now go into the corner and cry. I want those trees! I can't even get lousy palms to appear in the game...Don't give up E! You *have* to get us some palms! ~D
bodidley
06-13-2005, 21:00
Adherbal']I'd be carefull not making those forest too dense, cos it'll have quite an impact on framerate. Unless you dont mind your mod requiring a better PC then RTW vanilla.
Personally I prefer a higher framerate and let a few trees represent a dense forest. After all graphics aren't everything. Just look at what happened to RTW when CA decided to make GFX it's main selling point...
The density of the forest also has tactical implications. In RTW vanilla, the forests are sparse enough that they won't even significantly disrupt up a phalanx.
Greek_fire19
06-13-2005, 21:19
Also....you're telling me those german axe warriors are hiding in the dense undergrowth of that....well spaced orchard. It doesnt really work.
Lord Adherbal
06-13-2005, 21:24
The density of the forest also has tactical implications. In RTW vanilla, the forests are sparse enough that they won't even significantly disrupt up a phalanx.
true, but you can give units a penalty when fighting in forests. And phalanxes already have problems enough :)
Mongoose
06-13-2005, 23:22
Perhaps this shows a bit better what you can achieve:
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload5/sj_tac_trees4.jpg
Unit order is quite messed up when walking through this kind of dense forests.
~:eek: Please, do some trees for the other mods!!! ~:cool: ~:cool: ~:cool: ~:cheers: ~:cool: ~:cheers:
Not quite.There's hardly a tree in America more than 100 years old.
Um? 100 years? Try 4700 years.
Maybe you are talking about the right half of America... here on the left we have the oldest trees in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm
bodidley
06-14-2005, 01:56
Um? 100 years? Try 4700 years.
Maybe you are talking about the right half of America... here on the left we have the oldest trees in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm
Yes, I've seen those trees before ~;) but they are very few in comparison to all the other trees that make up our national forests. The western part of the country also suffered from deforestation around the turn of the century. Those trees are the exception to the rule, so you won't typically see them when you go around most of the country's forests.
Yes, I've seen those trees before ~;) but they are very few in comparison to all the other trees that make up our national forests. The western part of the country also suffered from deforestation around the turn of the century. Those trees are the exception to the rule, so you won't typically see them when you go around most of the country's forests.
There may not be thousand-year-old trees on every corner, but there are hundreds-year-old trees all over northern California (at least... that is where I am from, so it is where I know best). There are even many groves of 150+ year old eucalyptus, and that is not even a native tree!
There was a lot of deforestation (and still is), you're right. But there are many, many, many more trees out here where those came from. There are also still many very old trees (by the standards of human lifespans) in the Sierras and in the Pacific Northwest that have never been touched. It is not difficult to find trees over a hundred years old out here... heck, meet me in Berkeley and I will show you dozens without even leaving the city.
Proper Gander
06-14-2005, 17:00
how's about going back on topic... EB doesn't cover yankland after all. ~;)
bodidley
06-14-2005, 18:57
There may not be thousand-year-old trees on every corner, but there are hundreds-year-old trees all over northern California (at least... that is where I am from, so it is where I know best). There are even many groves of 150+ year old eucalyptus, and that is not even a native tree!
There was a lot of deforestation (and still is), you're right. But there are many, many, many more trees out here where those came from. There are also still many very old trees (by the standards of human lifespans) in the Sierras and in the Pacific Northwest that have never been touched. It is not difficult to find trees over a hundred years old out here... heck, meet me in Berkeley and I will show you dozens without even leaving the city.
All very true. My point, which brings us back to the topic at hand, is that just because there would have been more old trees 2300 years ago, it doesn't mean that the forests in RTW vanilla are anything near realistic ~;)
Kor Khan
06-17-2005, 08:41
That's true. Age isn't the only factor in deciding how big a tree grows. If you leave a standard European pinetree (rather than a giant redwood) alone for as long as you like without chopping it down, it will still never get anywhere near as big as the vanilla pines. Once it reaches a certain age, it won't grow much any more and will soon die. It would probably only have a maximum size of 40-60 metres.
So no, the trees in Rome aren't realistic as they are now, deforestration or no.
The density of the forest also has tactical implications. In RTW vanilla, the forests are sparse enough that they won't even significantly disrupt up a phalanx.
however the HUGE rocks in teh middle of the desert do a good job. I hate The fact that they walk round trees by 3 m. the tree is 1 m diameter. but they walk frggng 3m around it!
too short?! i don't know where you live, but in europe this is just about the size of the average tree.
we don't have mammoth trees in europe, and i am sure it wasn't that diffrent 2000 years ago.
http://img86.echo.cx/img86/9281/engvsfra10rb.jpg
in which file of CTW can i find these trees??
Proper Gander
06-17-2005, 21:27
considering the fact that it is pobably NOT in the beta for mp, since it is new. i would say NOWHERE.
wanna steal work from others?! *shakes head*
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