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The Wizard
06-12-2005, 17:57
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans!

As you may have seen, and certainly are seeing now, there has been a change in the EB previews. Khelvan has laid down the previewing baton and passed it on to me. He did a wonderful job and we will all miss him!

Khelvan has gone on to assist in handling more pressing internal matters. Meanwhile, the process of modeling and scripting has entered a new phase, and we are working on a whole slew of new features that will culminate in a new internal release in the not too distant future. It will bring the open beta that much closer!

This week, the EB team is proud to present:






http://img198.echo.cx/img198/8162/logomakedonia17mg.jpg








http://img239.echo.cx/img239/6128/makmap18hy.jpghttp://img35.exs.cx/img35/9620/ebfactionshieldsmacedonfinal2g.jpg



Makedonia. A land of contradictions. A land of soft, rolling lowland and rough, heavily forested highland. A land famed both for its horses and its men. The land whence Philippos and Alexandros marched and made the world tremble in awe. It is a land of endless possibilities, but that knowledge is also known outside of its boundaries.

Whatever the case be, you are the one that controls Makedonia. You control the great estates from where its famous cavalry comes, as well as the tough but unruly men from the hills that fill the ranks of its resplendent infantry. It is you that has taken control of the land which made it even possible for the Seleukidoi and Ptolemaioi to attain the position they have now. Why should they not be subservient to your majesty? The majesty of the Makedonian king? The rightful supreme ruler of the Hellenistic world as master of Alexandros’ birth ground?

All political musings aside, you are one of the great European powers, if not the greatest. From your power base in Makedonia itself, you control large tracts of the traditional Hellenistic world. Such power creates jealousy, however. As a result, your enemies are numerous. To the south, your rule in Hellas proper is contested by leagues of Hellenistic city states in the Peloponnesos as well as in Aetolia. Then there is the perpetual danger emanating from the old powers in the cities of Sparte and Athenai. All want to throw off the shackles of Makedonian rule, and to get it they want to take the rule of Korinthos and the control of the isthmus from you.

Meanwhile, your control of the Greek islands is contested by the Ptolemaioi and their hated ally, that foul city of Rhodes and its statue built of the remains of your father’s siege weapons. They want control of the city of Mytilene on Lesbos, which grants you control of the Thrakian Bosporos and the northern Aigaion.

To the north, there remain the perpetual threats of the Thraikians and the Illyrians, who are still more than ready to come through the mountain passes and raid your lands. To the west, there is a growing power which has already managed to take control of the Hellenistic cities of Megale Hellas. These Romaioi have even managed to defeat a descendant of Alexandros himself! Perhaps they have their hungry eyes directed to your domains as well. What to do against such numerous enemies?

While developing naval strength is a possibility, your infantry is the core of the Makedonian army. Basic hoplite soldiers from the older Hellenic cities under your control are available as are the better equipped sarissa-bearing soldiers, of varying levels of ability and training, for which Makedon is so well-known. The best Makedonian pikemen are, of course, the famous Argyraspidai, or "Silver Shields". Their armor is better and their training is more thorough and they will hold the line in tough situations. You can supplement these with the most elite soldiers, trained in your best barracks, the Hypaspistai. They have shorter spears and function like traditional hoplites except for their mobility and mail armor. They are some of the toughest and most versatile soldiers available to any army in the ancient world, but they are also some of the most costly to train and maintain. Other foot units such as the Thureophoroi are still somewhat experimental and use the almond shaped thureos shield, behind which they attack with javelins and then their short swords. The infantry is also supplemented by inexhaustible supplies of javelin-throwing Akontistai, traditional slingers, Greek archers, higher classed skirmishers known as Peltastai, and even Thrakian Peltastai, which are extremely common and very useful. Following a proud tradition, the Makedonian cavalry are not significantly changed from the days when Alexandros led their charges. Thrakian light cavalry is very effective and mobile, but the men of Thessalia are among the best that the Makedonians are able to muster, trained from birth as they are in fighting on horseback. Alexandros' Hetairoi cavalry were the elite of the Makedonian horse though, and they still are, carrying their twelve foot lances and heavy armor.

Will you be able to lead these proud soldiers to the same lengths as their ancestors that served Philippos and Alexandros? Will you be able to reestablish Makedonian hegemony over Europe and keep Ptolemaic influence out of the Aigaion? Perhaps you will even be able to avenge your father by tearing down that accursed statue of the Rhodians! There are a great many ways to go, oh king. Choose wisely. There is a fine line to walk between success and failure.

Here are shots of the Makedonians in action:

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/9492/action19sl.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=action19sl.jpg)

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/9929/action22ol.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=action22ol.jpg)

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/8357/action38zn.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=action38zn.jpg)

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/8277/action44ov.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=action44ov.jpg)

Some of the units that you will be able to command as King of Makedonia:

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/4097/hoplitai14jc.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=hoplitai14jc.jpg)

The poorest citizens of the Hellenic and Makedonian cities fought as a militia roughly organized along the lines of other, more professional hoplite soldiers. They are organized in the phalanx and are quite high quality for militia, due to the dogged Hellenic spirit and fighting tradition. They can be expected to hold a line against most light and medium infantry, though they can be cut to pieces by missile troops, as they have virtually no protection from missiles other than their shields. They are still useful against cavalry, because no horse will willingly charge a line of men armed with sharp pointy sticks! Taxeis hoplitai, if used properly, can be an inexpensive and very valuable unit. Against heavier and more professional troops, they are simply outclassed. A wise commander will take this into account.

Historically, the poorest citizens of any polis and the peasants on the estates of Makedonia were called up in defense of their homeland to fight as taxeis (militia). They had been used to devastating effect in many ancient battles while forming the second battle line. They were good and courageous soldiers that fought with a degree of discipline that no average citizen before or since were able to expect without a fair degree of training. They were not cowards and did not break quickly, but were often annihilated if facing good missile troops or heavier, more professional infantry. Peltastai and other units armed with javelins were particularly devastating to the taxeis hoplitai, due to their lack of protection on the battlefield.

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/3102/peltastai11vi.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=peltastai11vi.jpg)

The peltastai are a type of elite skirmisher that sacrifices heavy arms and armor for mobility and range. They are armored in linen and carry a medium sized ovular shield. Originally, they carried a crescent shaped ‘pelta’ that gave them their name, but this was phased out in the fourth century. Their armaments consist of several javelins and a sword. All this makes them light and mobile, but still easily able to engage in melee after their javelins have been thrown. They are a versatile unit but one must remember that their primary arms are javelins, and they are not equipped to stand toe to toe with heavier infantry. Their role is one of speed, harassment, and critical flanking maneuvers.

Historically, the peltastai were often hoplitai or pezhetairoi equipped to fight in the manner of a skirmisher. This meant that they were extremely adept melee combatants as well as being deadly with their javelins. Peltastai were used to great effect on ancient battlefields but by 270 B.C. the thureophoroi was becoming the dominant ‘melee’ skirmisher and the peltastai were carrying more javelins and was used in a manner that was consistent with this. This was simply a matter of specialization, and it did not mean that peltastai would be any less effective if deployed correctly. Their light armament makes them extremely fast, but tends to be to their detriment in melee combat. They were mostly used in the role of supporting missile troops who charged in at the last moment, after they had spent all their javelins. The great Athenian general Iphikrates is credited with the invention of the peltastai as a distinct unit, and it is he that first employed them in this manner to great effect against the heavier armored and better trained hoplites of Lakedaimon.

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/4449/pezhetairoi16qt.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=pezhetairoi16qt.jpg)

Pezhetairoi are the bread and butter military unit of the Successor states. They are well disciplined and highly motivated pikemen that are armed and armored to the teeth. They are armored in a linen cuirass, a Phrygian cap, a bronze greave on the right leg, stout boots, good bracers, and reinforced shoulder pads made from hardened linen (due to their experience with the deadly curved swords of Thraikia). They have Illyrian style round shields attached to their bodies by leather straps that help support the weight of the shield and keep their hand free to grasp the sarissa. They are defensive infantry par excellent. They are the anvil of the two part Makedonian system of warfare, the heavy cavalry being the hammer. They should be used to anchor enemy soldiers while the thureophoroi harass the flanks and the heavy cavalry smashes into the flanks and rear.

Historically, the pezhetairoi are the classic Alexandrian phalanx. They were used to great effect against the Persians, Medes, Baktrians, Indians, Phoenicians, and many, many others. They are an effective force and have not changed much over the centuries. The Romans were able to defeat them as easily as they did for two main reasons. One, the Roman army was at a high state of readiness and tactical prowess after defeating the Karchedonioi. Two, the heavy cavalry arm of the Successor armies had degenerated to the point where they were no longer able to field significant numbers to fulfill their part of the hammer and anvil tactic of Alexandros. There were many small reasons, numbering among them the misuse of the thureophoroi, the under use of peltastai, and the lax state of warfare that the Successor states were used to. In any case, the phalanx was not as anachronistic or inflexible as widely believed; it was simply used in the wrong way. In the thirteenth century onwards, pikemen in similar formations were able to work wonders with more capable generals and a better cavalry arm. Do not under appreciate pikemen, for they are still a war winning force.


http://img284.echo.cx/img284/2148/hypaspists19ww.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=hypaspists19ww.jpg)

Hypaspistai are the elite spearmen of the Makedonian and Seleukid armies. They are armed and armored much as traditional hoplites, but with a few notable differences. Their secondary arm is a Celtic style longsword, adopted from the Galatai. They are armed with the traditional hoplite shield, but are often armored in mail, another symptom of Celtic influence. They are versatile and elite soldiers, often forming the right wing of the Hellenic battle line. Their heavy armor and weapons allows them to fight as elite spearmen or swordsmen, able to fight the hardiest opponents. They should be deployed where the fighting will be at its absolute thickest, as they are able to charge in for a kill once the enemy has exhausted himself on their spear points!

Historically, the hypaspistai were the elite foot guard of the Makedonian king, armed much like fifth century hoplites. Alexandros changed their armor and weapons to allow them to fight in the deserts of the Middle East. When Alexandros was killed and the Seleukids and Makedonians inherited the elite forces, they mostly wiped one another out in internecine squabbling. Still, the tradition was there, and it was re-adopted by the Successor armies in Makedonia and Syria. Their equipment went through a further revolution, re-adopting heavier armor. They now wore the less expensive and easier to produce (in relation to bronze plate) mail armor that only provided a slightly smaller degree of protection. They were last used operationally during the time of Philippos V, due to the expense of keeping such a unit around. The Romaioi never got to feel the bite of the most powerful of the Successor infantry…

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/8509/pheraspidai14ot.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=pheraspidai14ot.jpg)

The pheraspidai are the second part of the Basilikon Agema, or Royal Squadron. They are armed with large hoplite shields and swords and these are augmented by a few heavy javelins for added punch. These men are assault infantry, and are really an arm of the heavy infantry mainly used as a mobile reserve to plug gaps where the fighting is thickest and to storm fortresses. They wear heavy armor and have thick helmets to protect them from the rigors of hand-to-hand combat. They are an elite and expensive heavy infantry that is best used for their original purposes, since they are likely to bolster faltering infantry or slaughter garrison troops with ease.

Historically, the pheraspidai, or shield bearers, were the elite of Alexandros’s assault forces. After his death, they split up and slaughtered one another until being reformed by both the Seleukids and the Makedonians. They were used many times, but their slow but steady decline left them virtually incapable of action when the Romulidai invaded. Perhaps a crafty general can save them from their fate...

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/3790/thessalian18bg.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=thessalian18bg.jpg)

Thessalikoi hippeis are drawn from the nobility of Thessalia, a region thoroughly under Macedonian control. They are extremely valuable heavy cavalry, well able to mow through their enemies with a single thunderous charge. While not quite as powerful as the Companion cavalry of Macedon itself, the Thessaloi are well able to give a good account of themselves in battle. Their lances and blades, combined with their shields, make them well able to hold in a melee after the charge has been completed. They have a degree of discipline that is enviable among cavalry warriors.

Historically, Thessalia was famous for its heavy cavalry. Unlike southern Greek regions, the Thessaloi had a wide expanse of plains and were able to breed horses extensively. They were able to keep the other Hellenics at bay even though they were poorer and less populous than their southern neighbors. They were joined with Makedonia during the reign of Philippos, and provided cavalry to fuel Alexandros’s conquests. After Alexandros, they continued to provide heavy cavalry to the Makedonians until the invasion of the Romaioi in 146 B.C. that destroyed much of Thessalia’s infrastructure. There is evidence that heavy cavalry was employed only in smaller numbers at this point, due to cost.


http://img284.echo.cx/img284/2282/hetairoi12dk.th.jpg (http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=hetairoi12dk.jpg)

The hetairoi, or companions, were the elite noble heavy cavalry of Makedon and the Successor states. They are an elite heavy cavalry that is second to none and arguably the best cavalry of the period. They fight with a degree of élan, discipline, and simple ferocity that is matched only by the horsemen of Iberia, Karchedon, and the best heavy cavalry of some of the eastern nomadic peoples. They are armored from head to toe in bronze plate, reinforced with mail at key points. Their horses are barded with felt barding and often have bronze plates to protect their heads. Their helmets, with the two plumes, mark them on a battlefield. They are best used as heavy shock cavalry, able to decide many battles with a single charge. They are the second part of the hammer and anvil of Alexandrian battle tactics. They are armed with a xyston and a kopis, and are well able to use both weapons. If these men have any weakness, it is the front of a line of spearmen. Horses simply do not like charging into a row of men armed with big pointy sticks. They are still able to give a decisive blow to the flank and rear of any infantry.

Historically, the hetairoi were first created by Philippos, following the lead of the cavalrymen of Thessalia, to the south. Philippos went one better, armoring them to the teeth and giving them a xyston, a twelve foot long lance tipped with a large steel head. They were armored head to toe in bronze plate, from helms to cuirass to bracers to greaves. Alexandros often replaced this armor with lighter linen when they were traveling, but was quick to replace the bronze in any hard fought engagement. Alexandros added little to their equipment but trained them to ride their horses in such a way that each man was an expert horsemen as well as a shock cavalryman. The successors kept this mold, but added mail reinforcement to the bronze armor at the joints and added felt barding to the horses after encountering horse peoples that did the same. During the third century their usage declined with the Successor’s ability to pay for such heavily armored men. They degenerated to such a point where only a handful were present at major battles, and were far from the war winning force that they had been earlier. Perhaps with a bit of luck and more funding, a good general could use them in their true glory once more…

Some monuments to remind you that not all is blood and gore:


Aigai

http://img290.echo.cx/img290/4112/aigaiscreen34ug.th.jpg (http://img290.echo.cx/my.php?image=aigaiscreen34ug.jpg)

Finally, a few goodies for y’all:

http://img198.echo.cx/img198/8831/logomakedonia1small9ma.jpg



We heartily invite our fans to use these signatures. They are here for you, and we delight to see them used by our great fans!

We hope that you’ve enjoyed this week’s update!

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures shown in our previews are of works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Or here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31

We give special thanks to http://www.imageshack.us (http://www.imageshack.us/) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.

Have a great day y’all!

Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team

Proper Gander
06-12-2005, 18:01
i liked macedon in RTW. but the depiction was pathetic, and they were just dull. that's why io never played a campaign with them.

but THIS beats RTW into the ground, once again!

Dâriûsh
06-12-2005, 18:07
Amazing stuff...



...as always... ~:)

Simetrical
06-12-2005, 18:10
Uh . . . "increase in number of hats sold"?

-Simetrical

anonymous_joe
06-12-2005, 18:11
All I can say is superb. That truly looks amazing, vanilla made it hard to understand why Alexandros was so successful.

Teleklos Archelaou
06-12-2005, 18:11
Uh . . . "increase in number of hats sold"?
-SimetricalMy, that was faster than expected. ~D

IrishMike
06-12-2005, 18:12
Awesome preview as usual. But why must you torture us so with the map blacked out confidential on the royal tomb screen shot? WHY? Haha just kidding, great work. ~:cheers:

KingOfTheIsles
06-12-2005, 18:12
Didn't you know that the Macedonians had a thriving tourist industry? It says so on Google. :)

anonymous_joe
06-12-2005, 18:12
Maybe they're special hats...

jerby
06-12-2005, 18:28
nice Wiz, really a good job.
yeah, more hats sold? wtf?
I really like the length of the spears for the cav, and would love to see the kopis...i also think that teh overhead-handed-hoplite-spears (i know, long word) shoudl be shorter or get a heavier counterweight.

Leolinus
06-12-2005, 18:31
Very nice, really glad you got the shield bearers in.

Mongoose
06-12-2005, 18:38
WOW, amazing ~:cool:

Spendios
06-12-2005, 18:50
It's a superb work as always !
Congratulations !

Bouchious
06-12-2005, 18:53
b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l

Smiley
06-12-2005, 19:04
Awesome.

The_678
06-12-2005, 19:32
Great! I always hated how Macedon wasn't that great in vanilla. Sure they still could easily take over the world, but they were very bland in vanilla. Now they at least have a proper balanced army. I can't wait to play these guys.

cunctator
06-12-2005, 19:36
Beautiful as always. Nice that you use greek names for (some) other factions in the unit descriptions now.

n00bicus
06-12-2005, 19:56
We heartily invite our fans to use these screenshots. They are here for you, and we delight to see them used by our great fans!
Used for what? If it's what I'm thinking, they're not that good. ;)

GoreBag
06-12-2005, 20:01
It looks good. I'm more curious about the ZOR-type units, though...most of those look just like Hellenes. Also...hats; what gives?

eadingas
06-12-2005, 20:06
Used for what? If it's what I'm thinking, they're not that good. ;)

You'll have to wait for our elite Gaesatae Amazons for that ;)

Viking
06-12-2005, 20:07
Nice as always. ~:cool:

Will we ever see something ugly/bad? :tongueg:

Sfwartir
06-12-2005, 20:11
Truly beautiful units! :bow:
Might give one inspiration to top Alexandros. I think all the Diadachioi factions will be on the upper half of my "which to play first in EB" list.

Excellent work, EB team!

ENSAIS
06-12-2005, 20:14
Thanks for the update. The flavor of this Macedon in EB reminds me of Macedon in SPQR (maybe thanks to LT?). Looking forward to that overhand hoplite animation, too. COOL beans!

Teleklos Archelaou
06-12-2005, 20:17
Nice as always. ~:cool:

Will we ever see something ugly/bad? :tongueg:hehe. Did you notice that your question is right beneath eadingas' EB signature? ~D

Viking
06-12-2005, 20:25
Heh!

Are those pink guys to be found in EB?

Sfwartir
06-12-2005, 20:31
Heh!

Are those pink guys to be found in EB?

No, don't worry. They were part of the Eb team's April Fool joke.
Just another Aprilsnarr ~:joker:

Jebus
06-12-2005, 21:10
They could be the Theban sacred band, though ~D

eadingas
06-12-2005, 21:27
That's what they are indeed :)

aluenser
06-12-2005, 21:38
Looks amazing.

I noticed the Macedonian Hetairoi's horses merely wearing linen whilst their Ptolemaic and Seleucid counterparts wear a kind of mail?


Macedon: http://img284.echo.cx/my.php?image=hetairoi12dk.jpg
Seleukia: http://img288.echo.cx/my.php?image=hetairoi9zg.jpg

Will their ingame stats also vary or is this just a visual difference?

Greetings

QwertyMIDX
06-12-2005, 21:53
At the moment they are both "light armored mounts" in terms of stats, we will see if there are any changes later.

Birka Viking
06-12-2005, 21:54
Beautiful work again EB!!!

Jebus
06-12-2005, 22:03
That's what they are indeed :)

Ehehe. I'm getting good!

All the better, because I've got examn on Classical History wednesday.

Jediknight73
06-12-2005, 22:53
Once Again Fantastic work Gentlemen:) Even though this is my first Post,I have been reading about your Mod for months.

Quietus
06-12-2005, 23:39
Welcome The Wizard! It's true, we do miss khelvan already. ~:)

I see some more goodies! AND Makedon hetairoi horses with war hats!!! ~D

Divinus Arma
06-12-2005, 23:52
So long Khelvan. Management details, eh?

Welcome to the Wizard!


Hats. I get it. Its a joke. Funny. I think I hear a crafty EB member snickering now.


On the overhanded pike holders... ouch. That would be a nightmare to be the guy in the back. How could anyone hold their spears like that? Historically, was there a large counterweight or something? Just curious.

Looks damn fine, fellas. Damn fine.

khelvan
06-12-2005, 23:57
Just to let you guys know, ZoR and AoR are terms that were created long after the groundwork had been laid for our recruitment system. Many people say "EB doesn't have an AoR system!" which is quite true; our recruitment system predates it. I can tell you, though, that our recruitment system is the most complex that I have ever read about (and I say this with no small amount of pride, as I'm the one who came up with a way to make our concept a reality in implementation). Before RTW came out we had planned on a homelands-like system (see WesW's MedMod), though it evolved into something much more complicated once we saw what RTW was capable of.

Every unit in the game is evaluated on a per government per faction basis, as to whether or not it is available, and may have varying unit recruitment areas based on the faction/government. Each faction recruits units in varying ways, based on their historical predisposition to do so, and each will be unique in what is available to it. Auxilia-like units are available only to a few factions that historically were wont to raise and equip native troops in such a manner. There are a number of different types of units available to various factions. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at our innovative use of the hard-coded systems to come up with something really unique.

This is one of the reasons that it takes so long to put together a version ready for public play. Because the systems are so complicated it takes a very long time to get them working properly, so that people aren't pissed off that the mod they downloaded can't really be played as a campaign. While we may not have all the units, graphics, sounds, images, and other polish in place that we would like, we wouldn't hold back a release based on a few units and such. However, there really is no point in us releasing to you a mod that has half-implemented systems. We don't want the gameplay to be worse than vanilla. So please be patient with us.

vizigothe
06-13-2005, 00:04
looking good

cant wait for this to come out, better hurry before you lose me to BF2 and Quake IV

:P

Spacemonk
06-13-2005, 00:59
Wow this just looks so good... can't wait to see how wonderfull everything is in action :D Great work guys/girls (are there any girls actually??)

Teleklos Archelaou
06-13-2005, 01:35
Great work guys/girls (are there any girls actually??)I'm afraid the best we could do is to dress up The Wizard in a nice hat and skirt to present the preview next week. But you could always google image search 'barbarian' and 'girl' and imagine that first beauty is one of our skinners. ~;) We do. ~D

Region
06-13-2005, 01:46
That's not right! ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

Thanks for the preview.

Mongoose
06-13-2005, 02:09
Could we see a Bartix preveiw next? ~D

Divinus Arma
06-13-2005, 02:12
This is one of the reasons that it takes so long to put together a version ready for public play. Because the systems are so complicated it takes a very long time to get them working properly, so that people aren't pissed off that the mod they downloaded can't really be played as a campaign. While we may not have all the units, graphics, sounds, images, and other polish in place that we would like, we wouldn't hold back a release based on a few units and such. However, there really is no point in us releasing to you a mod that has half-implemented systems. We don't want the gameplay to be worse than vanilla. So please be patient with us.

Khelvan,

Thank you for the information. I am sure that the results on recruiting will be excellent.

As per polish and release: I for one, as one of the masses eager for EB, appreciate the EB team's patience and attention to detail. Although the wait is long, the EB team's continued respect and attention to the fan community is superior. It is this attention that keeps me, and I assume others as well, in anticipation of a professional product.

Warmest Regards,

Divinus Arma

Sheep
06-13-2005, 02:34
Having just watched a 3 hour long documentary on Alexander the Great last night, I'm eager to have some Hellenistic fun. ~:cheers:

You saw that too huh? I stayed up til 3am to watch it.

Richard2
06-13-2005, 05:44
in the description of the Aigai, near the bottom of the description, it says Gaulish, not Gallic. i think Gaulish usually (not always) refers to the language, whereas Gallic refers to the people. i may be wrong though,

http://img290.echo.cx/my.php?image=aigaiscreen34ug.jpg ~:confused:

Ranika
06-13-2005, 05:50
Gaulish or Gallic works just as well as the other; either is generally appropriate. Gallic, however, is often use by some to describe 'post-Roman' Gauls, and Gaulish pre-Roman, but that's not any definite rule.

Little Legioner
06-13-2005, 08:32
I think of that EB has come from outer space and developing this mod in a secret base deep of the mountain. They should be big headed super aliens.

Simply amazing. I will play EB with every faction! and i will let the copy of EB to my childs as a treasure.

jerby
06-13-2005, 12:23
On the overhanded pike holders... ouch. That would be a nightmare to be the guy in the back. How could anyone hold their spears like that? Historically, was there a large counterweight or something? Just curious.

well, from what i've seen. The spears didnt have a big counterwait, just a small butpike. the problem is the place were the spear is wielded. they grab it way to far to the back
http://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah3529.jpg
see? no big counterweight, altough this site isnt a reliable source i might add.
the spear length is about 2,5 m i guess. so I'm guessing that hoplites hsoudl hold the spear about 50cm from the end.

butpike
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/ah6126.jpg

When doing some calculations (mind you, i ahve no degree) with my 0,5-2,00 spear ratio. you see that the pikes ( stating that teh big pike is 1,5 times as big as teh but-pike, I'm guessing the point weighs 700grams.)
the point will weigh 200x700 (=1400gram)-0,5x233(=116gram) the point alone will weigh 1280grams=1,2KG. not even regarding the weight of the 'stick' so it is doable for a soldier.
PS: can somebody fill me in on density and the surface of circels? what are the formulas?
density=massxvolume. BINAS states that the Unit is " 10 'to teh power of'3 KG x M 'to the power of' -3 is this the same as KG/Cubic Meters?

is teh surface formule for cirkel "PIxDiameter"? or is it "PI x (radius to teh power of 2)??

If there are dutch people. the Q is teh same: dichtheid= 10 tot de 3e /m tot de /3e is dat hetzelfde als m/kubieke meter?

is de oppervlakte formule voor een cirkel 2x PIx diameter of PIx straal-kwadraat?

Spacemonk
06-13-2005, 12:59
sorry I'll do this in duth cause it's easier for him to understand.

10³kg/m³ of er staat 10³kgm-³ (is allebij hetzelde) is wat je bedoelt denk ik en dat is 1000kg per kubike meter.

oppervlakte van een cirkel is Pi×r² (r=straal)
omtrek van een cirkel is Pi×2r

monkian
06-13-2005, 13:10
The 'butt spike' was also known as a 'lizard stabber' ~:)

Ano2
06-13-2005, 13:51
On the overhanded pike holders... ouch. That would be a nightmare to be the guy in the back. How could anyone hold their spears like that? Historically, was there a large counterweight or something? Just curious.

Looks damn fine, fellas. Damn fine.

There depiction of the overhand spear is completely wrong, the guys at the back never held it like that. Their overhand hoplites are basically the same as the old hoplites. Check out Signifier One's work if you want to see a more accurate depiction of how hoplites fought :)

Excelent preview guys you have somehow managed to make Macedon interesting!

I am glad to see you've released some details about your recruitment system, I was beginning to fear you were sticking to the vanilla system. Anyway, excellent work as usual guys. :)

The Wizard
06-13-2005, 13:58
Thanks for the compliments and well-wishings guys!

... But welcome? I've been with EB since the very beginning (ok somewhat later than that; say a week ~;p)!

Ano2: As stated in the preview itself: unless stated otherwise, the units you see are works in progress. That is the same for animations. Do not worry, EB has strived for total historical accuracy since the beginning, and we will not stop until we are done. ~:)

P.S. You have a typo in your sig: the tags should be {img}{/img} in that particular order, but then with the '[]' marks instead of what I use (I do because using the normal symbols would create a red x).

Thanks,



~Wiz

jerby
06-13-2005, 14:26
sorry I'll do this in duth cause it's easier for him to understand.

10³kg/m³ of er staat 10³kgm-³ (is allebij hetzelde) is wat je bedoelt denk ik en dat is 1000kg per kubike meter.

oppervlakte van een cirkel is Pi×r² (r=straal)
omtrek van een cirkel is Pi×2r
thank you
so I've calculated that teh mass of the spear alone is 10 KG. holding it at aprox 0,5 to 1 M from the back is good enough.

I agree with Ano2. when holding it like that you'll be very tired very quickly. and if you let it slide you knock the person behind you out cold. ~;)

Ano2
06-13-2005, 14:53
Thankyou wizard, appreciated.

I'm glad that is a WIP animation, its just in another thread an EB member said that it was the finished one :S

Alexander the Pretty Good
06-13-2005, 21:17
Nice work, Wiz.

~:cheers:

khelvan - that system sounds complicated, so I naturally have questions about it. First, can the AI handle it? Vanilla AI is pretty retarded, and complex things tend to make it worse. Have you tried it out with the AI? Can it handle the recruitment system?

And to be pedantic, ZoR is an older term, used with mods like WesW's MedMod and other major mods to MTW (and perhaps STW, but I wasn't around then).

:charge:

happyzappydude
06-13-2005, 22:15
well we waited for another update and then just as I begin to think EB is dead, Makedonia. Pretty sweet. Though Im still going to go for Baktria as my primary choice. Still keep up the good work. We all know how much effort youre all putting into this.

khelvan
06-13-2005, 22:25
well we waited for another update and then just as I begin to think EB is deadWhat in the world would make you think that? Believe me, we've had more team members leave us or go inactive than most mods ever have on their team, and generally our active members are a very small group, but SOMEONE will always be here to work on this mod. It is too important to us to abandon.

QwertyMIDX
06-14-2005, 04:02
Haha, damn straight, if spent half as much time on my school work as this mod I might be tops in my class (and I could use that scholarship money). As long as I draw breath work will not stop before completion.

Jebus
06-14-2005, 08:25
You really are philantropists, guys. Thanks.

Duncan_Hardy
06-14-2005, 10:37
Beautiful. I'm so glad that you're not rushing to get it released; I know it will be worth the wait.

Revelation
06-14-2005, 11:06
What in the world would make you think that? Believe me, we've had more team members leave us or go inactive than most mods ever have on their team, and generally our active members are a very small group, but SOMEONE will always be here to work on this mod. It is too important to us to abandon.


Asked uncountable times I know, but i'm going to ask it again.
When are we looking at for an EB open beta release mate? Perhaps you can't/won't give out any specifics on a final date but a ballpark would be nice.
It's getting to the stage where waiting for updates is on EB is becomming more enjoyable than playing RTW itself, though even that is getting stale.
When it's done is an acceptable answer,for a little while, but thats getting old now.
There's only so long you can string the mule along with the carrot, before the mule says, f#ck it, walk mate!
Looks like a decent mod, damnit, let me play it! ~D
Flame away peasants! :duel:

Edit:
Spelt playing palying and thought i'd add the # instead of the u. Can't have the mods getting anymore testy than they currently are. Poor overworked bastards! ~:grouphug: ~D

vastator
06-14-2005, 14:49
Maybe they're special hats...
Clearly, these are the "lovely hats" designed to protect their wearers from the Moon People's fearsome gaze! ~D

jerby
06-14-2005, 14:51
hmm..now were did i hear that before?

khelvan
06-14-2005, 17:59
Asked uncountable times I know, but i'm going to ask it again.
When are we looking at for an EB open beta release mate? We thought it would be April, then a few weeks later, then a few weeks later, and on and on. We've been thinking a matter of weeks for two months now. We're still thinking a matter of weeks, but I don't know how long it will be until it is actually ready.

anonymous_joe
06-14-2005, 19:00
Clearly, these are the "lovely hats" designed to protect their wearers from the Moon People's fearsome gaze! ~D

They better be...

Little Legioner
06-15-2005, 14:02
We thought it would be April, then a few weeks later, then a few weeks later, and on and on. We've been thinking a matter of weeks for two months now. We're still thinking a matter of weeks, but I don't know how long it will be until it is actually ready.

You know What is the and When it's ready Khelvan. We should have to patience if we want to claim better. And EB project worth to wait to end. Also BI will come at close future? Maybe EB will make an adaptation arrengement for the expansion. Those are the options to think about the release date. Final decision is on their own what they want to do make. I'm really satisfyed all of faction which is represented the community. But EB is not only related with skins project. As we know they have to deal with plenty of coding work and testing them. So, i'll break shortof my words. We have to give them some peace to relax which is necessary for concentration. ~:grouphug:

Te Salutare.
LL

Wishazu
06-17-2005, 00:27
God damnit, how much longer? looking good though.

Alexander the Pretty Good
06-17-2005, 00:29
Eventually, they will run out of factions to countdown, and then they have to give us a release. ~D

Duncan_Hardy
06-17-2005, 11:43
God damnit, how much longer?

I'd rather wait a year for the finished product than get a half-done release which doesn't do the mod justice, wouldn't you?

Simetrical
06-17-2005, 17:40
I'd rather wait a year for the finished product than get a half-done release which doesn't do the mod justice, wouldn't you?I wouldn't, provided the half-done release was expanded regularly until it became entirely done.

-Simetrical

The Wizard
06-17-2005, 22:05
You mean, you wouldn't mind, because EB is so good right now.

*EB Thought Police step up and drag off Simetrical*



~Wiz ~;)

Colovion
06-18-2005, 10:37
I'd rather wait a year for the finished product than get a half-done release which doesn't do the mod justice...

:balloon2:

Mongoose
06-18-2005, 23:17
The Wizard You're previews might be good...but lets face it; they can't compete with mine! ~D

CrownOfSwords
06-21-2005, 07:32
Mod looks great! Well of course I know this back to beta test ;)

O'ETAIPOS
11-23-2005, 00:43
In classical hoplite phalanx two types of fighting were possible:
1.Active fighting: Only one rank was able to fight efficiently, the other were probably holding their spears straight upward. Next rows were probably about a meter behind the first line. Try imagine to stay just behind a man striking overhand with spear - you will probably be hit in face with a butt spike in very short time.
2.On the other hand if you are using "push" tactics and need man after man formation the spears would be used with great care, so they would be only hold in position, not used to active fighting (maybe some straight forward strikes).
This is why classical phalanx had no chance against Makedonian pikemen (at least in unbroken formation). Just consider you have 1-1.5m of stick in front of you and enemy has 3.5m in front of him (even more when striking), and more freedom of movement. So poor Greeks were killed either row after row or all at the same time.
So I hope something could be done to show 'oi 'ypaspistai ~:) (and other 'oi 'oplitai) holding spears more in the middle part and with rear ranks holding them upward. Besides great preview!

Reverend Joe
11-23-2005, 01:05
I am pretty sure all that stuff is *gag* hardcoded.

O'ETAIPOS
11-29-2005, 10:58
Well, holding in middle part couldn't be that hard (I haven't seen any unit in RTW 1.2 holding spear at the butt). Isn't it possible to replace rear ranks inphalanx animation with same unit not in phalanx animation? Is it a problem with speed values differ for those animations?
Where had you found info about javelin throwing heavy inf (pheraspidai)? Ancient Sources if possible, maybe modern books (I have access to university library). I was searching for some time for evidence on such unit (I know N. Sekunda mentions in "Army of the Aleksander the Great" that part of the Bodyguarg used javelins).

khelvan
11-30-2005, 00:38
The unit uses one model and one animation. It is not possible to change hand position from one rank to another, it is not even possible to change hand position enough for us to show both attack and marching with the two-handed pikes properly.

O'ETAIPOS
11-30-2005, 15:01
Thanks Khlevan:bow:
It's not a good info~:mecry:

jerby
12-05-2005, 13:28
Where had you found info about javelin throwing heavy inf (pheraspidai)? Ancient Sources if possible, maybe modern books (I have access to university library). I was searching for some time for evidence on such unit (I know N. Sekunda mentions in "Army of the Aleksander the Great" that part of the Bodyguarg used javelins).
https://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8509/pheraspidai14ot.jpg
what do those look liek to you?

O'ETAIPOS
12-05-2005, 14:11
https://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8509/pheraspidai14ot.jpg
what do those look liek to you?

What do you mean?? ~:confused:

hellenes
12-05-2005, 14:35
The unit uses one model and one animation. It is not possible to change hand position from one rank to another, it is not even possible to change hand position enough for us to show both attack and marching with the two-handed pikes properly.

IIRC the Chivalry Total War team achieved tw handed pikemen I dont know if that can be used in EB...

Hellenes

QwertyMIDX
12-05-2005, 19:17
We have a 2-handed pikemen animation that works just fine, what Khelvan was saying was that we can't have 2 animations in the same unit. There is a problem with the way they hold the pikes when they march, but it's not a big deal and it certinly won't keep them out of the game.

jerby
12-05-2005, 20:21
What do you mean?? ~:confused:
those are the infamous pheraspidai...i thought asked if they were in the mod...

The_Mark
12-05-2005, 20:46
(pheraspidai image)
what do those look liek to you?
No, jerby, we haven't yet reached the stage where we can call EB as foolproof evidence ~;p

Kralizec
12-06-2005, 00:12
Did these pheraspidai actually use hoplon shields? Hoplons were unweildy for non-phalanx battles, strapped to the arm and impacted the agility of the user. If you stould left foot forward and put the hoplon forward to cover your hole body from the front, you'd leave your back exposed. It doesn't seem like a good shield for anything but in a shield wall, where you're partially covered by your neighbours shield.

O'ETAIPOS
12-06-2005, 16:03
those are the infamous pheraspidai...i thought asked if they were in the mod...

Actually I asked where I could find source info on this unit. ~:cool:


Did these pheraspidai actually use hoplon shields? Hoplons were unweildy for non-phalanx battles, strapped to the arm and impacted the agility of the user. If you stould left foot forward and put the hoplon forward to cover your hole body from the front, you'd leave your back exposed. It doesn't seem like a good shield for anything but in a shield wall, where you're partially covered by your neighbours shield.

So no shield is good enough for you ~;)
Let me list: medieval shields were almost flat, Celtic thureos was flat, italian scutum was almost flat (top view - " ( "), 'oplon was round, some 10 cm deep and flat. There were no shield that protected both front and rear of the warrior. ~D
Strapped shield is not that bad - you can make decent moves. Although 'oplon is not designed to fight H2H it can do well. There are no useless weapons, only untrained users.~D

Kralizec
12-06-2005, 18:05
Other shields such as the thureos or the scutum could be held away from your body, and moved to deflect blows. The hoplon was strapped to your arm, holding it fixed close to your body. It stuck to the left of your body. In an ancient phalanx or shield wall, this would mean that it would cover your neighbour's right, making it a good shield for a phalanx. But it's awkward for individual combat as it can't be used to parry. If you stould diagionally so to be completely behind the hoplon, a more agile oponent could go around your left and stab you in the back.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/armour/hoplite/hoplshld.html

The Romans probably realised this, when they abandoned their phalanx set up and adopted the new legionary system they also started to use oval scutums (except for the early triarii, who still were equiped as hoplites)

Urnamma
12-06-2005, 20:04
Actually I asked where I could find source info on this unit. ~:cool:



So no shield is good enough for you ~;)
Let me list: medieval shields were almost flat, Celtic thureos was flat, italian scutum was almost flat (top view - " ( "), 'oplon was round, some 10 cm deep and flat. There were no shield that protected both front and rear of the warrior. ~D
Strapped shield is not that bad - you can make decent moves. Although 'oplon is not designed to fight H2H it can do well. There are no useless weapons, only untrained users.~D

The Pheraspidai are in large part an abstraction. Note that the name means the same thing as hypaspistai. The Hypaspistai had several roles, and we've chosen to depict two of them. The javelin and sword armed infantry are properly classified as 'assault infantry'. Check your Arrian for source detail on Alexander's useage of such troops.

O'ETAIPOS
12-07-2005, 01:08
The Pheraspidai are in large part an abstraction. Note that the name means the same thing as hypaspistai. The Hypaspistai had several roles, and we've chosen to depict two of them. The javelin and sword armed infantry are properly classified as 'assault infantry'. Check your Arrian for source detail on Alexander's useage of such troops.

Thanks Urnamma! I was thinking rather of specyfic passage where it is stated that 'ypaspistai used javelin, seems I have to read Arrian's AA again. I red it few months ago but I was focused on main battles, as I was looking for tactics used.


Other shields such as the thureos or the scutum could be held away from your body, and moved to deflect blows. The hoplon was strapped to your arm, holding it fixed close to your body. It stuck to the left of your body. In an ancient phalanx or shield wall, this would mean that it would cover your neighbour's right, making it a good shield for a phalanx. But it's awkward for individual combat as it can't be used to parry. If you stould diagionally so to be completely behind the hoplon, a more agile oponent could go around your left and stab you in the back.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l.../hoplshld.html

The Romans probably realised this, when they abandoned their phalanx set up and adopted the new legionary system they also started to use oval scutums (except for the early triarii, who still were equiped as hoplites)

I haven build my hoplon replica yet, but I'm sure you can deflect blows with it. Do not forget that most of medieval shields (esp. cav ones) were strapped to forearm and have handgrip on the edge. So this can't be that useless.
During duel you would probably hold shield at 45 degrees and move it where you need a protection.
If I don't remember wrongly hoplite duels were part of the games (eg. in Olimpia). :duel:
If handgrip is in the middle all shield's weight is carried on whist, which is not very comfortable.
Also this allow strikes that push he edge of the shield backward so you could be hit stright in the face with shield edge.
Roman scuttum was designed to protect whole warrior while he throw javelins and then closes in (fast) to attack with his sword.
Some scientists even believe that scutum as to heavy to use it H2H and the solider was charging in with shield in stright arm to hit opponents in front of him and then after closing with enemy it was hold on the ground and used like a pavise (I'm not that extreme ~:) )
If tou like to find 'opliteetos equipment not useful for duels the helmet is better choice - especialy that typical Corinthian one which allows to see only forwards.

O'ETAIPOS
12-15-2005, 20:20
As this countdown starts to fall down the page I decided that immediate action has to be taken. :san_smiley:

What type of spearhead and butt are you using for sarissa?
Andronikos' immense 0.5 m long or more probable in my opinion short, small (like XVI-XVIII c. pikes)

Spendios
12-15-2005, 20:30
As this countdown starts to fall down the page I decided that immediate action has to be taken. :san_smiley:

What type of spearhead and butt are you using for sarissa?
Andronikos' immense 0.5 m long or more probable in my opinion short, small (like XVI-XVIII c. pikes)

Your favorite faction's preview disappeared in the depths of the forum ?
You want to restore them in all their glory ?
Ask for O'ETAIPOS the official reviver of dying countdown threads :san_cool:

O'ETAIPOS
12-15-2005, 21:17
After to many visits on this forum everybody gets little insane. :san_laugh: :san_laugh:

The question is serious though.

the_handsome_viking
12-19-2005, 20:06
It's becoming quite apparent that in the classical world, wars were really just an elaborate excuse to dress up and wear fancy clothes dont you think?

O'ETAIPOS
12-19-2005, 20:20
This theory although interesting has one weak spot - some of those guys were not dressed at all. :san_grin:

khelvan
12-19-2005, 20:36
There are some guys who may think that their "birthday suits" are pretty damn fancy. :san_grin:

the_handsome_viking
12-19-2005, 21:01
Thats true, those torcs the Celts wore were basically the shirtless chip-n-dale bowties of the classical world.

ScionTheWorm
12-20-2005, 02:48
I envy you, so much delicious skin in your mod. may be the next XXX volleyball, but for the ladies

damn handsome, your avatar... if I hadn't known better... :san_smiley:

the_handsome_viking
12-20-2005, 03:48
I envy you, so much delicious skin in your mod. may be the next XXX volleyball, but for the ladies

damn handsome, your avatar... if I hadn't known better... :san_smiley:

Moderator, ScionTheWorm is flirting with me.

help.

Interestingly enough I know a girl that looks a lot like my avature.

and no Scion, I'm not giving you her email.

ScionTheWorm
12-20-2005, 16:15
I'm sorry viking, didn't mean to scare you. sometimes I just cannot control myself :wink3: :stare: :wreck: