Bush's biggest failure

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah its illegal immigration.


According to Bear Stearns analysts, Robert Justich and Betty Ng:

* The illegal alien population of the U.S. is about 20 million - roughly the population of New York State.
* The report asserts that there are between 12 and 15 million jobs in the U.S. currently held by illegal aliens, or about 8 percent of the work force.
* Moreover, between 4 and 6 million jobs have shifted to the underground economy since 1990. These are not “jobs Americans won’t do, but rather jobs Americans used to do.“
* "On the revenue side, the United States may be foregoing $35 billion a year in income tax collections because of the number of jobs that are now off the books."
* "We estimate that approximately 5 million illegal workers are collecting wages on a cash basis and are avoiding income taxes."
* "The United States is simply hooked on cheap, illegal workers and deferring the costs of providing public services to these quasi-Americans” conclude Justich and Ng.

Read the free report in .pdf format at Bear Stearns.

LINK (http://www.illegalaliens.us/)

Watch the videoes. Their good fun.

Heres another good one

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm)

And in case you thought the guy in the video was over stating matters.

Illegal aliens threaten U.S. medical system Docs journal reports hospitals being closed, previously vanquished diseases being spread (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275)

Finally listen to these clips.

LINK (http://www.theamericanresistance.com/race_industry/true_agenda_audio.html)


Former Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo

"I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders and that Mexican migrants are an important - a very important - part of it." -- Former Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo at the National Council of La Raza (The Race) Soiree, Chicago on July 23, 1997
More hostile statements

"We don't need no stinking green cards." Benicio Silva of UC Berkeley declared that having to show them at the border was a "violation of our human rights" because "Aztlan is ours and the white man is the invader."

"They say we're 'Latinizing' Los Angeles! Don't you love it?" boomed fiery orator Jose Angel Gutierrez, long-time University of Texas faculty member. "We are fighting to build a new Mestizo nation."

"We are here again," Gutierrez continued, "we are millions and millions, and the aging white Americans are not making babies, we've got to get ready to govern!"

Rudy Acuña warns that Chicano youth "bring the possibility of violence" to the Chicano movement, and the "Brown Berets" tell "gringos" that "the streets will run red with the blood of tyrants, who have murdered us for so long."

Reference: La Raza -Chicano Activism in California, by Diana Hull, The Social Contract (Summer 1999)


Lies that the illegal alien lobby perpetuates:

Lie #1: Illegal aliens take jobs Americans won't do.
Truth: Americans are willing to do most jobs at a fair wage, but they won't do those jobs at "slave wages" or minimum wage. Thus, American workers are constantly replaced by illegal aliens willing to work for half or a third of what American workers once received. These jobs that once afforded a middle class life style now only offer illegal alien workers poverty level wages, resulting in the shrinkage of the "American Middle Class" and the enormous growth of an ever-increasing "underclass" dependent on government entitlements.

Lie #2: Illegal aliens contribute more to the economy and tax base than they take.
Truth: A large portion of illegal aliens work for cash "under the table" paying no taxes. The great majority of illegals make $6-$8 per hour, ($12,480 - $16,640 per year). At such income levels, not only is there no tax due, but they also qualify for the "earned income tax credit". In California, public education alone costs over $7,500 per pupil. Multiply that times 2-4 children, add the costs of free school breakfast and lunch, free medical care, food stamps, housing subsidies, and other entitlement "give-aways". Harvard Professor George Borjas estimates illegal immigration costs the U.S. 70 billion dollars per year and Californians $1,300 per household annually in additional taxes. The Center for Immigration Studies estimate that the average Mexican illegal alien will use $55,200 more in public services during his lifetime than he pays in taxes.

Lie #3: Without illegal alien farm labor, a head of lettuce would cost $3.00.
Truth: It already costs $3.00. You just make a $1.00 down payment at the grocery store. The government finances the other two dollars until tax time, when the additional $2.00 balance is extracted from your wallet in the form of higher taxes. The Agriculture industry gets cheap labor and higher profits, while shifting all the social costs of illegal immigrant labor to the American tax payer.

Lie #4: Most illegal aliens come here only to seek work and are law-abiding "citizens".
Truth: In Los Angeles, as of January, 2004, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico. (Source: The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave, by Heather MacDonald, City Journal, Winter 2004)

Also see the list of contributors to the National Council of La Raza ("The Race").

[Mongoose]

when are we going to get a real republican, when? When? When?!

I wish that people would either be to the left or to the right...not in this weird kinda in between area...

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Lie #1: Illegal aliens take jobs Americans won't do.
Truth: Americans are willing to do most jobs at a fair wage, but they won't do those jobs at "slave wages" or minimum wage. Thus, American workers are constantly replaced by illegal aliens willing to work for half or a third of what American workers once received. These jobs that once afforded a middle class life style now only offer illegal alien workers poverty level wages, resulting in the shrinkage of the "American Middle Class" and the enormous growth of an ever-increasing "underclass" dependent on government entitlements.

Surely the way to prevent this happening is to ensure the immigrants have to be paid fairly? That way there'd be no financial motive to hire them over American citizens.

[BDC]

Well the simple answer would be to enforce people being payed the full, taxable amount.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Surely the way to prevent this happening is to ensure the immigrants have to be paid fairly?

Surely you jest ~:confused: Spoken like a true liberal. The way to prevent this happening is illegal immigrants dont come here in the first place. Paying them more would only encourage more of them to come here.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Surely you jest ~:confused: Spoken like a true liberal. The way to prevent this happening is illegal immigrants dont come here in the first place. Paying them more would only encourage more of them to come here.

But this would remove the whole 'stealing American jobs' problem, no? If you have to pay them the same amount as natives, then there is no reason to hire them, unless they actually do the job better than the local population. Therefore, there would actually be less reason to go to the US, as unless you had skills, you wouldn't be able to get a job.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But this would remove the whole 'stealing American jobs' problem, no? If you have to pay them the same amount as natives, then there is no reason to hire them, unless they actually do the job better than the local population. Therefore, there would actually be less reason to go to the US, as unless you had skills, you wouldn't be able to get a job.

No
You said raise the wage of the illegals not the wage for doing a certain job. Are you suggesting the governmant tell us what salaries should be paid for what jobs? No matter what you make it ilegals will be willling to do it for less. If you stop the ileagals from entering then the employers will have no choice but to pay the american workers a higher and competitive salary. Your doing things backwards.

[Tribesman]

I am oh so dissapointed :sad: Bush's biggest failure , yet no mention of Iraq ,the billions going down the drain there make the problems illegals are causing pale into insignificance .

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

No
You said raise the wage of the illegals not the wage for doing a certain job. Are you suggesting the governmant tell us what salaries should be paid for what jobs? No matter what you make it ilegals will be willling to do it for less. If you stop the ileagals from entering then the employers will have no choice but to pay the american workers a higher and competitive salary. Your doing things backwards.

I wouldn't raise the wage of the illegals, per se-I would just introduce a fair minimum wage, which we would enforced to prevent the illegals undercutting native workers.

[Tribesman]

I wouldn't raise the wage of the illegals, per se-I would just introduce a fair minimum wage, which we would enforced to prevent the illegals undercutting native workers.
But BKS how could you enforce wage rates to people who officially are not there and certainly are not working there .

Plus as an example , not concerning illegal immigrants but legal ones . The going rate for my job varies between 35-60 euros/hour depending on experience and other benefits that may come with the job . There was a job in the local paper last week offering only 10 euros/hour , on top of that it was not just an ordinary job it was for a working foreman with engineering experience . I wouldn't take that job for less than 80 an hour , but there are lots of non-nationals that consider 10 euros an hour a fortune and a queing up to take it . Though a lot of them have gone on stike lately , some very big strikes actually , because they have realised that while it may be a fortune back home they are really struggling to feed themselves on such crap money over here , let alone be able to send cash to their families back home .

[Ldvs]

I guess Mike Sformo's motto is "Illegals, Illegals, Illegals." ~D One must admit he isn't bad at oratory.


I wouldn't raise the wage of the illegals, per se-I would just introduce a fair minimum wage, which we would enforced to prevent the illegals undercutting native workers.
That or help develop the countries they're from. This way, they may reassess their thoughts to leave for a richer country. Writing off their debts is the first good move.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I am oh so dissapointed Bush's biggest failure , yet no mention of Iraq ,the billions going down the drain there make the problems illegals are causing pale into insignificance .

You miss the biggest part of this failure. Whats the use of fighting terrorism overseas if your going to have a porous border?


I wouldn't raise the wage of the illegals, per se-I would just introduce a fair minimum wage, which we would enforced to prevent the illegals undercutting native workers.

And what would this wage be? Raising the minimum wage tends to put people out of work.


That or help develop the countries they're from.

We tried that. Ever heard of NAFTA.

[Steppe Merc]

And what would this wage be? Raising the minimum wage tends to put people out of work.
Hypothitically, would there be any practical way for the government to say not allow them to fire them for that reason? I know you wouldn't agree with the government controlling the economy that much, but would it be possible to prevent companies for laying people off for that reason?

And I hardly think illegal immigration is his biggest failure. Not at all. There are far worse ones, even ones I'd think conservatives would agree with me on.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Surely the way to prevent this happening is to ensure the immigrants have to be paid fairly? That way there'd be no financial motive to hire them over American citizens.
No it's to ensure that the immigrants are sent back to whatever back water 3rd world nation they're from!
I have an idea.
Use the National Guard to patrol the borders! And when we catch illegals running across, give them this chance: Join the army for a full tour of duty (in the most dangerous jobs) and become legals and/or citizens after learning english, or go back to Mexico city!

[Tribesman]

Use the National Guard to patrol the borders!
Slight problem there Capo , they are a little busy out in Iraq for the next few years .
And when we catch illegals running across, give them this chance: Join the army for a full tour of duty
So you want to fill out the Armys ranks with law breakers ?
What sort of idiot would sign up ? you are giving them a choice to go home or be sent to an ever so slightly dangerous hell hole . They will take the option to go home then try and sneak back in again .
BTW would you be offering them the "full tour of duty" or would they be offered the new "really short you know you would really like to join and we will even give you bucket loads of cash if you please please sign up tour of duty" ~;)

[discovery1]

No it's to ensure that the immigrants are sent back to whatever back water 3rd world nation they're from!
I have an idea.
Use the National Guard to patrol the borders! And when we catch illegals running across, give them this chance: Join the army for a full tour of duty (in the most dangerous jobs) and become legals and/or citizens after learning english, or go back to Mexico city!

I doubt they would make good soldiers if they can't speak english. I guess you could take their first-born in the US though.



Hypothitically, would there be any practical way for the government to say not allow them to fire them for that reason? I know you wouldn't agree with the government controlling the economy that much, but would it be possible to prevent companies for laying people off for that reason?

And then the firms find that they are unable to pay for their increased labor costs. They either increase prices or go out of business, and the former will likely have all kinds of negative impacts on the economy. One could I suppose have the government subsidize the employers, but how to pay for it?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I doubt they would make good soldiers if they can't speak english. I guess you could take their first-born in the US though.
I dont think you need to learn english to clear minfields and the like.

[discovery1]

I dont think you need to learn english to clear minfields and the like.

To tell them how to do it properly I would think it would be useful. Unless you plan on them simply running across. And then you also have issues of willingness to be there. Some will likely be very bitter about being in the military. Would you trust them to do a proper job of mine clearing?

[doc_bean]

Immigrants take up jobs that pay too poorly for any citizen to do, and if wages have to be raised, their would be no jobs since the employer would go out of business. At least that's the way it's over here.

Honestly, the fair wage rethoric is something I'd expect from a Frenchman, not a US republican !

[Kaiser of Arabia]

To tell them how to do it properly I would think it would be useful. Unless you plan on them simply running across. And then you also have issues of willingness to be there. Some will likely be very bitter about being in the military. Would you trust them to do a proper job of mine clearing?
Well we wouldn't tell them it's a mine feild, we'd just do as Zhukov did with his russians. Hey, it worked!

[discovery1]

Well we wouldn't tell them it's a mine feild, we'd just do as Zhukov did with his russians. Hey, it worked!

Ah. While it worked, he didn't have sensitive political issues to deal with. Are you being tongue-in-cheek?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Ah. While it worked, he didn't have sensitive political issues to deal with. Are you being tongue-in-cheek?
Very.

[bmolsson]

Does illegal immigration really cost money for US ? I don't think so. It's cheap labor, no social responsibility, not allowed to vote, can be thrown out at any time and they consume most of their income in US.......

[Xiahou]

Well, there is free access to our healthcare and the inordinately high crime rates among illegals. Did you read the 1st post?

If people want to discuss a reasonable guest worker program- that's fine. But we can't make that effective without also securing our border and reforming enforcement policies.

As for Bush's biggest failure.... this is right up there with the prescription drug entitlement.

[Productivity]

And what would this wage be? Raising the minimum wage tends to put people out of work.

Actually, at best the evidence is inconclusive. Even working on pure economic theory it's inconclusive. If you're interested I can dig you out a study that showed that in some cases raising the minimum wage increased employment.

[Samurai Waki]

Should put up a large Electric Fence on the US/Mexican Border, mine it, and then put Machine Gun Pillboxes every 250 Yards from each other... patrol the waters around it 24 hours a day... I'd say that would solve it.

Actually in all truth, not much America can do about it. I have a feeling it will taper off eventually, especially if America's economy starts faultering. For the most part, the Mexicans (and some coming into the US illegally) that I've met, are very nice, hard working, and honest people... I mean if you were living in a fairly destitute country and right across the border there was a country where you could actually afford to feed your children, and make some extra money wouldn't you go even if it meant illegally?

[GoreBag]

I agree with BKS. Increasing illegal-immigrant wage to be on par with the normal minimum wage would remove all incentive for illegal immigrants to steal red-blooded American jobs.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I agree with BKS. Increasing illegal-immigrant wage to be on par with the normal minimum wage would remove all incentive for illegal immigrants to steal red-blooded American jobs.

Around here they get 100 to 150 bucks a day off the books. Do you really believe thats not enough? Besides these guys will always be willing to work for ess. What ever happened to the liberals complaining that there was to much unemployment here and its Bush's fault? Well it is because hes letting all those illegals take americans jobs.

[bmolsson]

Well, there is free access to our healthcare and the inordinately high crime rates among illegals. Did you read the 1st post?


Yes I did and I have large difficulties to see that anyone with no valid social security card would get any care in US or any other country for that matter. Further more, the illegals hardly come with their full family and have them registered in school.

The whole article smells propaganda and points out every civil services as rather dumb. Nothing but a rant in my eyes.....

[bmolsson]

Well it is because hes letting all those illegals take americans jobs.


Well, he needs the illegals to do the job for the Americans he ship off to Iraq....... ~D

[jayrock]

Yes I did and I have large difficulties to see that anyone with no valid social security card would get any care in US or any other country for that matter. Further more, the illegals hardly come with their full family and have them registered in school.

The whole article smells propaganda and points out every civil services as rather dumb. Nothing but a rant in my eyes.....


just a quick question, do you have any idea how the us system actually function...

hospitals and schools, do not check for green cards, or visas to make sure your a legal citizen before providing services, for hospitals, even if they know their patient is an illegal, they cannot deny services.

if they do that is a law suit begging to happen... schools, also do not check legal status of their students or parents, if your paperwork is in order they will admit your child into the system. i went to school with a few who themselves never even knew their parents and they were illegal immagrants.

i will agree that most illegals will never use any of the civil services available to us citizens, they prefer to stay behind the scenes being anonamous if you will. but when they do use them, who foots the bill for the services they use, its every american who pays taxes and uses those same services, legally, we eind up paying higher fees so the companies that provide these services can keep thier profits up...

as to the millions of jobs they take from legal us citizens, my honest opinion is they can have them, these are some of the most backbreaking jobs i have ever seen... you wanna know what hell is, spend a summer in napa valley, or some other agriculture area during harvest time, and you'll find out why i say they can have them...

[Papewaio]

Hi Jayrock nice to see you back! ~:cheers:

Aare you playing tag team with Dave?

He seems to be cooling his heals at the moment.

[Thoros of Myr]

Actually in all truth, not much America can do about it. I have a feeling it will taper off eventually, especially if America's economy starts faultering.

Yes, I agree. As we get more and more Mexicans doing back-breaking jobs for next to nothing the economy becomes more and more like Mexico's economy.
I mean why not. India already has all our simple tech jobs by the same strategy. It's quite fascinating really. :book: "Slave labor" is loved by the short-sighted everywhere. Trying to get everything cheaper and cheaper is the bane of this country.

[Productivity]

India already has all our simple tech jobs by the same strategy.

Do you think that Indians who are willing to work for less should not be allowed to do the job?

[bmolsson]

just a quick question, do you have any idea how the us system actually function...

hospitals and schools, do not check for green cards, or visas to make sure your a legal citizen before providing services, for hospitals, even if they know their patient is an illegal, they cannot deny services.

if they do that is a law suit begging to happen... schools, also do not check legal status of their students or parents, if your paperwork is in order they will admit your child into the system. i went to school with a few who themselves never even knew their parents and they were illegal immagrants.

i will agree that most illegals will never use any of the civil services available to us citizens, they prefer to stay behind the scenes being anonamous if you will. but when they do use them, who foots the bill for the services they use, its every american who pays taxes and uses those same services, legally, we eind up paying higher fees so the companies that provide these services can keep thier profits up...

as to the millions of jobs they take from legal us citizens, my honest opinion is they can have them, these are some of the most backbreaking jobs i have ever seen... you wanna know what hell is, spend a summer in napa valley, or some other agriculture area during harvest time, and you'll find out why i say they can have them...

Interesting. I was sick in San Fransico and I had to produce passport and credit card before they treated me. Of course I don't have a latino appearance though.

Also, I find it very interesting to know that the school are not allowed to ask the identity of the kids, when a muslim can't even enter an American flight if he have the wrong name......

[Thoros of Myr]

Do you think that Indians who are willing to work for less should not be allowed to do the job? They have every right to do the job. I'm not disputing that. The problem does not lie with them. They are just trying to make a living like everyone else in this world.

[TonyJ]

Having worked for a uk company that outsourced part of it's technical support to India, I know how much bad feeling this can cause.

I understand that part of the problem in India is that big multinationals are actually offering more money to people to work in call centres than they could earn working in public sector jobs such as the health service and schools. Thus their society suffers a lack of staff in towns with these call centres.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Interesting. I was sick in San Fransico and I had to produce passport and credit card before they treated me. Of course I don't have a latino appearance though.

At a hospital emergency room? If they wouldnt treat you as has been said you could have sued them.

[King Henry V]

I would say his biggest failure is his intelligence.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I would say his biggest failure is his intelligence.

How so? If hes as dumb as you insinutate he did very well with his limited IQ. I dont believe how many of you still think he has no brains. Imagine what he could do if he did.