The Welsh In 1087?

[Total War Merc]

I am talking about the xl mod, the scottish is in scotland, the irish are in irelans, and the english are in england, the rebels are in welsh.

Was there a unifed welsh country in 1087 or was it all rebels and bandits? :help:

[asilv]

MTW has limited number of faction slots. I think VikingHorde decided that the Welsh were not important enough compared to other factions.
Whether historically there was unified welsh kingdom at the time I do not know for certain, but I'm sure someone here can give a comprehensive answer on that.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

bunch of tribes I think

[GoreBag]

No Welsh prince had been strong enough to unite Wales by the time the English stepped in and annexed it. The lack of unity seems a reasonable excuse to include them as a rebel faction.

[Papewaio]

It was a group of small principalities... so to represent it would require a separate welsh style nation for each of the main counties... not really feasible unless a lot of extra factions was allowed.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Wales was almost completely united several times.
Rhodri Fawr did it; the Princes of Gwynedd in the 13th century; Owain GlynDwr in the 15th century.

In 1087 it was comprised of several different principalities/kingdoms (about this time the Welsh started to refer to their leaders as princes instead of kings, I can't remember the exact year that this was recorded.)

Small kingdoms do not = tribes.

There's a new book called "Welsh military Institutions" that may be of interest to people on these boards. In fact there are plenty of easily available books on Welsh history in English.

NeonGod: the English did not just step in an annex it. Gwynedd retook lots of land that had been taken in the late 11 th century whilst the Marcher lords married into Welsh nobility and created several new sort of Welsh/sort of Norman lordships where Welsh culture dominated and Welsh laws mixed with Norman to create a weirdly mixed political situation that remained in place until the 16th century. It took the Norman kings 200 years to conquer Wales but took a few months to take England.
Also, as I mentioned above, several dynasties did rule most of Wales for periods. You may like to compare it to Scottish and Irish factions that people are so fond of: Ireland was even more politically divided whilst Scotland may have had a king but really did not control the Highlands and Islands (i.e. half of Scotland, whose rulers had a havbit of allying with the English) and suffered from incredibly powerful magnates and a weak monarchy for most of the later middle ages.

[Total War Merc]

K, i was just wondering (wouldnt it be cool to play as the welsh tho)

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

the Welsh were just as united as the Irish and barely less so than the Scots.

I say just put them in as a faction if you are having Scots and Irish factions.

[GoreBag]

NeonGod: the English did not just step in an annex it. Gwynedd retook lots of land that had been taken in the late 11 th century whilst the Marcher lords married into Welsh nobility and created several new sort of Welsh/sort of Norman lordships where Welsh culture dominated and Welsh laws mixed with Norman to create a weirdly mixed political situation that remained in place until the 16th century. It took the Norman kings 200 years to conquer Wales but took a few months to take England.
Also, as I mentioned above, several dynasties did rule most of Wales for periods. You may like to compare it to Scottish and Irish factions that people are so fond of: Ireland was even more politically divided whilst Scotland may have had a king but really did not control the Highlands and Islands (i.e. half of Scotland, whose rulers had a havbit of allying with the English) and suffered from incredibly powerful magnates and a weak monarchy for most of the later middle ages.

No, it wasn't a simple invasion, but they ceased to be independent after the slew of castle-building. Yes, Ireland was also very politically divided, and Wales did have its rebellions and other nasty things. Despite how long it took for the English to really get the Welsh to settle down, and how little the Welsh compromised over the course of English rule, Wales did not have enough political unity to justify its own faction in MTW on the grounds that no one prince commanded the entire country's efforts. If Wales had been divided into smaller parts, the player could, more justifiably, gain control of all of Wales, and then act as a king, much like VI.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

NeonGod: using that logic then the Irish and Scots would not be entitled to factions. In the basic MTW game the Italians would not have qualified for a faction and so forth.

If you want, say a Welsh or Irish or Scottish faction with a chunk of the relevant land and one or two provinces to conquer for unity then that would probably be the most accurate way to depict it. As you said, just like in VI.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

the slew of English/Norman castle building did not stop several very serious rebellions including one that regained Welsh independence.

When it comes down to it, the loss of Gwynedd's independence could be regarded as a result problems caused by people not liking where Gwynedd was building castles on its borders. eh, just seeing as we were discussing castles.

[Orda Khan]

Let's not forget either, that Edward I was able to look to his holdings in France for valuable assistance